NorthstarBoy
Topic Author
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:53 pm

UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 7:01 am

For years UA has tagged domestic legs onto their International flights, such as UA 938 going Den-Ord-Lhr or UA 900 going San-Sfo-Fra. Imagine my surprise checking the schedules for my RTW trip this fall to see that my Den-Ord flight has been de-tagged from the onward Ord-Lhr international leg. Not that it made much difference, it wasn't like I was going to magically get an equipment upgrade from the scheduled 752 for the Den-Ord leg, but after so many years of doing the tag ons, I find it interesting that UA is ceasing the practice.

I wonder if this is some kind of preparation for much bigger changes in the fall schedules that may happen later in the summer.

Or is UA just getting in line with the other major carriers who no longer do Domestic-International tag ons.

The schedules i checked for were for the first week in October and it seems that the de-tagging is pretty universal, all of the international flights i looked at no longer had domestic tag ons.

Any ideas on why this is happening?
Yes, I'd like to see airbus go under so Boeing can have their customers!
 
Mir
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 7:27 am

About damn time. Now if the other airlines doing this could just follow suit, and we could end this deceptive practice once and for all.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
tpaewr
Posts: 396
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 8:45 am

It is a temp fix to a SHARESPlus issue. This was driven in part by upgrade and seat issues. They will be back.


It is strange to me how many things worked just fine in CO's old SHARES that malfunction in the new SHARESPlus
 
jporterfi
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 8:46 am

I think this may be happening in order to lessen confusion about different legs of a flight with the same flight numbers. Do you know if they are doing this with domestic flights as well? This may help clarify to people when they have a connection on an international flight: before they might have seen United 900 from SAN to FRA, unaware of the stop in SFO. Enough passengers may have gotten upset to make United change its policy. I believe DL changed this a while ago: any idea which airlines still engage in this practice? I think this needed to happen when airlines started using the same flights numbers for multiple flights, but different aircraft operate the flights. I think that flight numbers imply the same aircraft for both legs, which is simply not true. For example, United 618 has its first leg from CMH to DEN, on an A319. But the second leg, which is from DEN to LIH, is on a 752. The same flight number implies that it is either a nonstop or direct flight, instead of a connecting flight.
 
NorthstarBoy
Topic Author
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 10:25 am

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 3):
Do you know if they are doing this with domestic flights as well?

I've only seen it on the international flights. I think with the domestic flights the issue might be that when they added in the PMCO flights there were more flights than available flight numbers. I think everything above 1900 is reserved for codeshares, express, and probably special purpose flights like ferries and charters. The result of that is that they have to combine two or three or four different flights on the same flight number. DL solved the same problem by doing alot of "out and back" type flight numbers, i.e. having an Atl-Dtw-Atl use the same flight number both ways.

I do also believe that for non-frequent flyers, having one flight number for multiple destinations may be confusing. When I book such a flight, as a travel agent, I always make it clear that there will be a change of planes and possibly even customs clearance enroute. For instance, if I have someone traveling from say Ams-Lax on UA 947, I'll let them know that they're going to need to deplane, clear customs and change aircraft at IAD. Unlike those of us here on a.net, your average traveler probably doesnt pay much attention to details like gauge changes enroute. They just know they get on the plane at point A and get off at point b, so, if there is a point c where they'll need to get off and change planes, they need to be told this.

Quoting tpaewr (Reply 2):
It is a temp fix to a SHARESPlus issue. This was driven in part by upgrade and seat issues. They will be back.

Thanks for that information.
Yes, I'd like to see airbus go under so Boeing can have their customers!
 
PHX787
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 10:38 am

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 3):
I believe DL changed this a while ago: any idea which airlines still engage in this practice?

I think the other day when I flew into CVG and saw some of the baggage claim stuff, I saw an AA flight from Dallas that actually originated somewhere in Latin America with a bunch of random codeshares on it. Confused the heck outta me and I wasn't even on that flight. Just a lot of clutter on the screen, to me.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
panova98
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 1:53 pm

Airlines have always known why this do this change-of-gauge business. To make you, whether a saavy traveler or not, think, believe, or otherwise fall for the lie that you're getting a through flight, one where you are avoiding all the messiness of a connetion, when you're getting no such thing.

It's a deceptive practice, having flights listed as something other than connections and getting higher up on the booking screen. "Don't look any further. We have a more convenient schedule than our competitors." All legal. Disclosure notice. Of course, it's still connecting service.

Complaining as I have about this with companies like UA for years, I hope UA is finally seeing the light, maybe now just for the domestic-international tag-ons, but eventually for all its service, international and domestic.
 
PI4EVER
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 2:36 pm

It is driven by the display in booking systems. "Direct" flights with a stop/aircraft change will display first in most distribution systems that give that carrier a booking advantage. All the revelent disclosures occur when the segment is sold so the customer is made aware of the different equipment, required change of plane etc. DL uses the domestic-international tag/change of gauge for many of their city-pairs......the best example being DL17 ATL-LAX-SYD or DL10 TPA-ATL-LHR or DL130 LAS-ATL-MUC. Even on the days of week that DL17 ops with the 77L between ATL-LAX, if you are on DL17 to SYD you still have to deplane in LAX and re-board, so no difference in principle if you fly a 763 ATL-LAX. DL's advantage however is that from their largest hub GDS systems show they offer "direct" service to SYD, and from TPA a display advantage showing DL10 to LHR when BA flies TPA-LGW nonstop.
I suspect UA will reintroduce this practice once their system issues or upgrades are completed. The largest "global" airline in the world will want their code and identity to display at first glance, and then further down in the process the actual itineraries, equipment, times etc will display at point of sale.
Deceptive? It could be debated; however, its all about marketing and getting that first glance from a customer, and is a fully-approved process by the FAA and DOT if proper disclosures are made by point of sale. Same principle as marketing a regional jet/prop or commuter type service as a UA, DL, AA or whomever "big" airline/airplane service.
watch what you want. you may get it.
 
hamad
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 3:07 pm

When i used to fly United All the time (2005, 2006 & 2007), i used to connect in DEN, then take flight 902, it was a 777 and many times they will say it will be continuing to MUC. Now MUC was a 767 at times, so there was always an announcement made on board by the flight attendants that if they are continuing to munich that you will have to deplane as this is not the aircraft continuing to MUC.

Another time i took delta out of PHX and the flight number was continuing to some where in florida from Atlanta, the same announcement was made. I was surprised this time as it was a domestic flight number all the way. It was a 767 out of PHX, but the continuing flight number was a 757. Not sure, as I checked online when i got home just out of curiosity.

As many of you pointed: For us, whether we are a.netters or airline employees, we do read and research multiple times before the flight.
PHX - i miss spotting
 
Mir
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 3:35 pm

Quoting PI4EVER (Reply 7):
Deceptive? It could be debated;

Not really - it's deceptive. You're marketing a customer experience identical to a connecting flight as something other than a connecting flight.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
masseybrown
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 4:32 pm

Quoting tpaewr (Reply 2):
It is a temp fix to a SHARESPlus issue. This was driven in part by upgrade and seat issues. They will be back.

Are you sure? PMCO avoided tags mostly because of the increased risk of delaying the more important segment of the flight. Even the old SFO-HNL-GUM route used to mean an unadvertised plane-change in HNL. A through flight number was usually the best they would offer.

That logic still seems to hold.
 
malaysia
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 5:00 pm

Even it is deceptive, it has helped me a bit as a Non-Rev, saved me by using just a single coupon all the way through even having to change planes 2 times on the same flight number, but my origin to final was the beginning and end of the flight number overseas. They made sure they could clear me all the way first even on the domestic leg, then gave me all my seat assignments. but for a revenue traveler its a pain if you actually need to be on several of those legs, no convenience in staying on the plane
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
DTWLAX
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 6:34 pm

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
Or is UA just getting in line with the other major carriers who no longer do Domestic-International tag ons.
Quoting jporterfi (Reply 3):
I believe DL changed this a while ago: any idea which airlines still engage in this practice?

DL still does the domestic tag-ons. As pointed before, DL 17/16 is a very good example.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 7:43 pm

Quoting tpaewr (Reply 2):
It is a temp fix to a SHARESPlus issue. This was driven in part by upgrade and seat issues. They will be back.

Can you explain the SHARESPlus system - and the issue with it - for those of us, such as me, whose only connection to the industry is as a passenger?
 
brilondon
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):

About damn time. Now if the other airlines doing this could just follow suit, and we could end this deceptive practice once and for all.

-Mir

How are you being deceived by this practice? What is it that you gain by them discontinuing this?
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
peanuts
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 8:28 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 14):
What is it that you gain by them discontinuing this?

My direct issue with this is: Timetable format
Some of these timetables (nowadays just in PDF format, unfortunately) are endless in listing city after city including the direct and connecting flights, not just the non stops.

I've always liked the Northwest Timetable. It was simple, thin and you could figure out connections easily.
 
b52murph
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 8:43 pm

It appears as though this isn't limited to domestic. UA 803 has been IAD-NRT-BKK for quite some time; however, still a change of plane and requirement to clear security in NRT. For the fall, it changes to UA881 on the NRT-BKK leg and by October is up-gauged to a 744 from 772.
 
UA772IAD
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting b52murph (Reply 16):

It appears as though this isn't limited to domestic. UA 803 has been IAD-NRT-BKK for quite some time; however, still a change of plane and requirement to clear security in NRT. For the fall, it changes to UA881 on the NRT-BKK leg and by October is up-gauged to a 744 from 772.

Actually, UA803/804 has traditionally been IAD-NRT-SIN (since 200X when UA started the route). UA used to re-number IAD-NRT when they dropped the IAD-PEK non-stop during the winter months. To satisfy the slot agreement, UA operated IAD-NRT-PEK as UA897 (the IAD-PEK flight number), and UA898 PEK-NRT-IAD with a 777.

UA881/882 has traditionally been ORD-NRT-ICN with NRT-ICN operated with a 777-200ER, while the ORD-NRT leg operates with a 747-400.

NRT-BKK has traditionally been UA837/838 utilizing the inbound 744 from SFO (no plane change).

More info than you probably wanted to know!!!!
 
AADC10
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 9:11 pm

I do not think it means anything for informed travelers. Kettles might be fooled by the single flight number when booking but anyone that has flown more than a couple of times on UA knows that the international tag-ons are just another connecting flight. Does it really make any difference taking UA888 from PEK to SFO on a 744 then switching to UA888 on a A320 SFO-LAX if the second segment had a different flight number? There might be some mileage or segment issue for MilagePlus but it makes no difference for much else.
 
Mir
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Sun May 27, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 14):
How are you being deceived by this practice? What is it that you gain by them discontinuing this?

As I said, it's a connecting flight marketed as something other than a connecting flight. I personally don't gain anything, because I know the practice exists, but for the traveler who doesn't fly that often, they'll benefit by knowing that they're booking the regular connecting flight that they're actually booking.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Mon May 28, 2012 12:21 am

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 3):
I believe DL changed this a while ago

No. DL still has many domestic-international tags that share the same flight number; in both directions.
What gets measured gets done.
 
Viscount724
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Mon May 28, 2012 12:37 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 20):
Quoting jporterfi (Reply 3):
I believe DL changed this a while ago

No. DL still has many domestic-international tags that share the same flight number; in both directions.

Same applies for DL international-international tag-ons at NRT where they use 757s based in Asia for sectors beyond NRT to various points in Asia. They're forced to use the same flight number as a U.S.-NRT flight on those tag-ons as they're restricted to 5th freedom rights, meaning a flight that's a continuation of a flight to/from the U.S. They can change aircraft but can't operate them with stand-alone flight numbers which would imply 7th freedom rights which are very rare.
 
dlphoenix
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Mon May 28, 2012 3:42 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
Not really - it's deceptive. You're marketing a customer experience identical to a connecting flight as something other than a connecting flight.

-Mir

I couldn't have said it any better.
I would love to see the airline industry recognize this practice for what it is and discontinue it.
I have yet to see how a customer gains from this practice, but there is a lot to lose.

DLP
 
ScottB
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Mon May 28, 2012 4:44 am

Quoting dlphoenix (Reply 22):
I have yet to see how a customer gains from this practice, but there is a lot to lose.

There is a very small benefit to the customer in that the TSA security fee and connecting airport PFC (if any) would not be charged on a connecting itinerary ticketed as a single flight number -- so a connection over ATL sold as a "direct" flight would actually save the customer $7.00.
 
CapEd388
Posts: 182
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Mon May 28, 2012 5:07 am

Im sorry, but if travelers are having trouble or are suddenly surprised by a stop, then thats their fault. If you carefully read the itinerary, it will see that a flight makes a stop or changes planes. Same thing goes for codesharing, they always disclose the "operating carrier".

I personally do not purchase anything until i have carefully read and researched whatever Im about to buy. Travelers need to be a little more careful and take a few seconds to go over their itinerary before purchasing it.
388 346 77W 787
 
CapEd388
Posts: 182
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Mon May 28, 2012 5:33 am

Heres an example of an AA flight:

Heres a "direct" flight from MFE to ABQ on AA's timtable



It clearly states that there is a stop.

Heres a look at the actual itinerary from AA's booking page.



It clearly shows that even though it is the same flight number "AA667", it shows that there is a stop at DFW. If travelers would carefully read, they will not have any surprises.

I dont know how this is deceptive.
388 346 77W 787
 
Mir
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Mon May 28, 2012 3:06 pm

Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 25):
It clearly shows that even though it is the same flight number "AA667", it shows that there is a stop at DFW. If travelers would carefully read, they will not have any surprises.

I dont know how this is deceptive.

A direct flight always has a stop - that's not the issue. There's nothing wrong with marketing a flight as having one stop when it's the same plane for both legs. What's deceptive is marketing a flight as having one stop when it's two completely different aircraft, and the customer experience is no different from that of a connecting flight.

This goes beyond just the issue of having to connect - let's say AA667 is significantly delayed getting out of MFE, and it arrives in DFW at 10:45pm. Since it's the same plane going on to ABQ, anyone who's going MFE-ABQ won't have to worry about missing the flight - they'll probably just stay on board through the quick turn, and the flight will leave as soon as everyone else is on. That's a clear advantage vs. a connecting flight. Whereas if you're on DL17 ATL-SYD and the ATL-LAX portion gets significantly delayed, you will probably find yourself stuck in LAX, the LAX-SYD portion having departed on time. That's not an advantage vs. a connecting flight - in fact, it's exactly the same. Yet it's not marketed as a connecting flight. Thus, the deception.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
hiflyer
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Mon May 28, 2012 5:41 pm

Personally I like eliminating the codeshares and the COG thrus as well as the true thrus. (COG change of gauge).

I had read in 'another forum' that COG issues since March 3 are not uncommon at the US gateway for Intl flights for UA re seating so suspect this has a lot to do with it. As another poster stated...a lot of this is done for CRS displays and rankings...sorta gaming the system. Read complaints on other carriers with the same practice..not just one or two.

Not sure, with today's computer technology (maybe not Shares from all that has been written   ) why then need to still put the code on...think the revenue can be handled between the carriers...it must be marketing living in the past. The new super carriers such as DL and UA have to be running out of numbers between their own, their express, and their partners. Looking at flight information screens in major terminals is confusing as heck with one flight having 4 or more carriers and numbers rotating thru...meaning the pax has to wait to scroll thru and cannot just glance and go. Heck...someone is gonna figure out if they have a captive audience staring at these things roll and roll they can sell advertising there....more confusion.
 
B747forever
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Mon May 28, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 23):
so a connection over ATL sold as a "direct" flight would actually save the customer $7.00.

You mean put another $7 in the airlines pocket.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
CapEd388
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:38 am

RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Mon May 28, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):

I have been tracking a specific AA aircraft since January and I have noticed is that whenever there is a direct flight, that aircraft serves all the legs. So for example AA1981 BWI-DFW-FAT, is served by the same aircraft throughout and I have seen that is the case on every direct flight. Now I know that this is just one aircraft, but it leads me to think that AA only applies the "direct flight" label and flight number on flight operated by the same aircraft (in other words, no connection necessary). Again this is just my assumption.

Although I do completely agree with you, that if an airline is going to have a connecting flight, they should market it as such and not slap a "direct flight" label on it.
388 346 77W 787
 
blueflyer
Posts: 3634
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Mon May 28, 2012 9:00 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 14):
How are you being deceived by this practice? What is it that you gain by them discontinuing this?

Let's turn the question around and ask why UA bothers to do this. No, it certainly isn't because they'd run out of flight numbers otherwise. They don't have that many flights.
UA does this because one-stop service are judged preferable over connecting flights, and thus appear second (after non-stop flights) in CRS results. It's a trick (or whatever you want to call it) to list a connecting service ahead of all other connecting flights from competing carriers and make UA's service look more preferable than it really is.

Today provides a perfect example. UA sells 973 both as BRU-ORD and BRU-SFO with a two-hour stop in ORD (go make a dummy booking for yourself online, nowhere does it say there is an aircraft change required - and there is). Even a seasoned frequent flier who doesn't travel much TATL may not be aware that he is required to clear US immigration at the first port of entry, so he could be excused for thinking that he would indeed just wait onboard the aircraft in ORD for two hours, which makes it a far better option than any other alternative, all of which do require a change of aircraft somewhere (and many of which end up being faster overall than UA973).

And on top of that, in case of delays, there's no guarantee whatsoever that the second flight will wait for the first. Today's BRU-ORD is arriving late at 3:51 and ORD-SFO will not even wait (leaving today at 3:27).

Bottom line, UA gets preferential listing in CRS and masquerades a connecting service as a much preferable one-stop flight, while the customer gains absolutely nothing out of it. Deception? Very much so.

Yes, frequent TATL fliers are aware of this practice and can avoid it, but does that make it ok? If you know how to stop me from lifting the wallet in your inner coat pocket in a crowd, does it make it the other guy's fault when I steal his wallet?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
Same applies for DL international-international tag-ons at NRT where they use 757s based in Asia for sectors beyond NRT to various points in Asia. They're forced to use the same flight number as a U.S.-NRT flight on those tag-ons as they're restricted to 5th freedom rights, meaning a flight that's a continuation of a flight to/from the U.S.

DL has seventh-freedom rights between NRT and various points in Asia, not all of which are used. I don't have the list handy, but I know you can fly DL between NRT and BKK/PEK/SIN without having to begin or end your journey in the US.

Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 24):
Im sorry, but if travelers are having trouble or are suddenly surprised by a stop

The issue isn't whether someone is surprised by a stop. It is about connecting flights disguised as one-stop service.
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
gigneil
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RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Mon May 28, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 30):
DL has seventh-freedom rights between NRT and various points in Asia, not all of which are used. I don't have the list handy, but I know you can fly DL between NRT and BKK/PEK/SIN without having to begin or end your journey in the US.

So does United. They both have practically no restrictions to operating flights from NRT.

NS
 
Mir
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Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Mon May 28, 2012 11:02 pm

Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 29):
I have been tracking a specific AA aircraft since January and I have noticed is that whenever there is a direct flight, that aircraft serves all the legs. So for example AA1981 BWI-DFW-FAT, is served by the same aircraft throughout and I have seen that is the case on every direct flight. Now I know that this is just one aircraft, but it leads me to think that AA only applies the "direct flight" label and flight number on flight operated by the same aircraft (in other words, no connection necessary). Again this is just my assumption.

And that's the definition of a direct flight, so that's fine. What is thread is about is airlines scheduling two different airplanes (and often two different types of airplane) on two legs of the same flight number.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 30):
DL has seventh-freedom rights between NRT and various points in Asia, not all of which are used. I don't have the list handy, but I know you can fly DL between NRT and BKK/PEK/SIN without having to begin or end your journey in the US.

Is that really seventh freedom, though, or is it just fifth freedom? If I'm not mistaken, all of DL's NRT-Asia flights have the same flight number as a US-NRT flight.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19002
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Tue May 29, 2012 2:44 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 30):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
Same applies for DL international-international tag-ons at NRT where they use 757s based in Asia for sectors beyond NRT to various points in Asia. They're forced to use the same flight number as a U.S.-NRT flight on those tag-ons as they're restricted to 5th freedom rights, meaning a flight that's a continuation of a flight to/from the U.S.

DL has seventh-freedom rights between NRT and various points in Asia, not all of which are used. I don't have the list handy, but I know you can fly DL between NRT and BKK/PEK/SIN without having to begin or end your journey in the US.
Quoting gigneil (Reply 31):
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 30):
DL has seventh-freedom rights between NRT and various points in Asia, not all of which are used. I don't have the list handy, but I know you can fly DL between NRT and BKK/PEK/SIN without having to begin or end your journey in the US.

So does United. They both have practically no restrictions to operating flights from NRT.

No, DL and UA don't have 7th freedom rights. They have 5th freedom rights which means they can carry local traffic between NRT and points in Asia but the flight number has to originate or terminate in the U.S. They can change gauge (using the 757s on the intra-Asia legs) but they cannot operate stand-alone 7th freedom services within Asia with no link to a flight to/fro the U.S. It's the flight that has to originate/terminate in the U.S., not the passenger. With 5th freedom rights they can carry local traffic between Japan and the Asian points.

FedEx and/or UPS have 7th freedom rights from some Asian countries meaning they can base aircraft in Asia and operate them as stand-alone services with no links to services from/to the U.S. but I'm not aware of any 7th freedom rights for U.S.-based passenger carriers.
 
stratacruiser
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:07 pm

RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Tue May 29, 2012 3:01 am

Good Riddance! Most Frequent Flyer programs credit non-stop distance only, even when the passenger uses a one or multi-stop flight. If you flew BOS - NRT on a tag-on via ORD, you received only the nonstop mileage for BOS - NRT, but if you connected at ORD you would receive BOS - ORD plus ORD - NRT credit.
 
coairman
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:31 am

RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Tue May 29, 2012 2:08 pm

A couple years ago there was a lot of hoopla in CLE about a "direct" flight to PVG. It was big news. It was actually a CO737 on the CLEEWR flight segment and then an equipment and gate change to a CO777 on the EWRPVG segment.
I think this practice is misleading and has been overlooked by regulators. It's actually a connecting flight! Not a direct flight.
The views I express are of my own, and not the company I work for.
 
GolfBravoRomeo
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:12 am

RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Tue May 29, 2012 4:24 pm

Quoting Coairman (Reply 35):
I think this practice is misleading and has been overlooked by regulators. It's actually a connecting flight! Not a direct flight.

Let's say the airlines were required to hold the second flight, would that make acceptable? It would provide a benefit over a straight connection it.

IIRC, LH years ago would sell NYC-TXL as LH four hundred-something, with a change of aircraft in FRA. I was inevitably informed that the FRA-TXL segment's flight number had been "changed" from a North American 400 number to a European 4 digit number. This "deception" was OK as it was an early morning arrival with nearly hourly continuing service.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 3634
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Wed May 30, 2012 7:40 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
No, DL and UA don't have 7th freedom rights.

I am pretty sure I came across an ICAO document purporting to be a list of 7th freedom rights, that included both DL and UA. I'll have to see if I can dig it out when home.

If they don't have 7th but 5th freedom rights, then it is, in my book, further reason for their intra-Asian flying to end. By slapping the same flight number on different aircraft, some based in Asia, operated by totally distinct sets of crew, with again one leg not being required to wait the arrival of the previous leg before departure, they're behaving no differently than if they indeed had 7th freedom rights.

If everybody and everything (crew, passenger, cargo) has to change aircraft somewhere en route, it is no more a continuing service than if it were just another connection.
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19002
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: UA Dropping Domestic-International Tag Ons

Thu May 31, 2012 12:24 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 37):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
No, DL and UA don't have 7th freedom rights.

I am pretty sure I came across an ICAO document purporting to be a list of 7th freedom rights, that included both DL and UA. I'll have to see if I can dig it out when home.

You may be referring to the following paragraph in the Record of Discussions of a 2009 Memorandum of Understanding between the U.S. and Japan, related to amendments to the bilateral. It clearly states that 7th freedom rights are not permitted.

In response to a question by the Japanese delegation, the U.S. delegation confirmed that nothing in the 2009 MOU implementing the 1952 Agreement, including the provisions in Parts III, VII and the Annex, is intended to authorize seventh-freedom operations, i.e., carriage of traffic between a third country and the territory of the other Party by an airline of the first Party without a traffic stop in the homeland of the first Party.

Similar wording also appears in the final text of the MOU that was signed in 2010. You'll find the complete text in the U.S. State Department website section that covers air services agreements..