cloud4000
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PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Sun May 27, 2012 7:48 pm

Looks like Pakistan International Airlines has signed a purchase agreement with Boeing to acquire five more 777s. Here's the link:

http://www.pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=157281

PIA is not only losing money, but is in debt upto its eyeball. Where are they getting the cash? Is Pakistan government backing their loans? Is the US government?
Boston, USA
 
rutankrd
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Sun May 27, 2012 7:59 pm

Almost certainly subject to US Government export guarantees however given the current rather poor political relations between Washington and Islamabad this "order" may yet take some time to be confirmed.

PIA need to sort out the maintenance of the existing fleet right NOW rather than looking at ANY expansion because they are close to being placed on the EU restricted and banded lists.

In fact some of their fleet has already been banded because of maintenance anomalies !
 
gkirk
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Sun May 27, 2012 8:02 pm

Is this not PIA actually purchasing the 777s they operate now, which IIRC, are leased?
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cloud4000
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Sun May 27, 2012 8:42 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 1):
Almost certainly subject to US Government export guarantees however given the current rather poor political relations between Washington and Islamabad this "order" may yet take some time to be confirmed.

PIA need to sort out the maintenance of the existing fleet right NOW rather than looking at ANY expansion because they are close to being placed on the EU restricted and banded lists.

In fact some of their fleet has already been banded because of maintenance anomalies !

The article also says they have added destinations.   They should be cutting them!

They need to do a lot of things before they can spend money on planes. For one thing, they need a business plan. Second, they need cash. Third, fix their damn planes.

Many Pakistanis refuse to fly PIA for their horrendous service and broken planes. As a US taxpayer I really hope the US government is thinking of financing this turkey of an airline.
Boston, USA
 
imiakhtar
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Sun May 27, 2012 8:43 pm

This is old news. The order was announced a few months ago in February.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 1):
Almost certainly subject to US Government export guarantees however given the current rather poor political relations between Washington and Islamabad this "order" may yet take some time to be confirmed.

The financing is already in place. Expect the order to hits Boeing's books shortly.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 1):
PIA need to sort out the maintenance of the existing fleet right NOW rather than looking at ANY expansion because they are close to being placed on the EU restricted and banded lists.

In fact some of their fleet has already been banded because of maintenance anomalies !

That's right. An accident waiting to happen IMO. The recently released report into the 2006 Fokker crash is alarming:

http://caapakistan.com.pk/investigation.aspx

Quoting gkirk (Reply 2):
Is this not PIA actually purchasing the 777s they operate now, which IIRC, are leased?

The majority of the current fleet is owned. Only AP-BHX is leased.
Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
 
LAXintl
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Sun May 27, 2012 8:58 pm

Did we not have this news couple months back?

Pakistan International (PIA) Order 5x Boeing 777-300ER's (by SA7700 Feb 17 2012 in Civil Aviation)

=
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
bennett123
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Sun May 27, 2012 9:35 pm

I read through the report.

My understanding is that PIA had operated this aircraft since 1964, and presumably this is typical for their F27 fleet.

However, according to pages 4/5 and 14; the commander seemed to have flown mostly jets. Both pilots seemed to have fairly limited experience on the F27, and the FO had total time of 520 hours.

Am I missing something here.
 
imiakhtar
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Sun May 27, 2012 9:53 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 6):
Am I missing something here.

Perhaps you should read it again. Some of the issues:

PIA maintenance

Poor regulatory oversight from the CAA

Pilot error (An engine failure on a twin is not a certain death scenario)
-Pilots continued TO despite noticing abnormal engine indication 5s prior to V1
-Incorrect feathering technique
-Failed to correct heading/roll deviation

In summary:

It is also felt that this accident may not be viewed as an isolated case of a
pilot’s failure to handle the emergency. The problems were observed to be complex
and deep routed and reflect towards the organization and her culture. The
occurrence (right engine failure) took place due to improper assembly during over
haul. Quality Control system of PIA Engineering appears to be in affective in
detecting the weaknesses. The accident took place due to improper handling of the
emergency by the air crew which reflected towards in adequacies of PIA
Training/Assessment and Scheduling System. The CAA Airworthiness, too, can not
be absolved of their responsibilities of regulating and monitoring the quality control
system at PIAC Engineering.


PK is an airline that crashed/wrote off over half of the F-27 fleet it operated in 40 years. The increased inspections and aircraft groundings in the EU suggests little has changed.

[Edited 2012-05-27 14:54:45]
Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
 
bennett123
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Sun May 27, 2012 10:31 pm

Sure, I realise that there were a range of issues.

My interest in pilot experience only focuses on one of them.

However, if the pilots had limited experience of same or similar types, then clearly in a crisis this seems likely to lead to further problems.

It also seemed strange that neither pilot had substantial F27 experience. This would not be surprising if they had just entered service with PIA. However, after 40 years in PIA service, you would expect the Captain to have considerable experience on type.
 
cloud4000
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Mon May 28, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 4):
This is old news. The order was announced a few months ago in February.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 1):
Almost certainly subject to US Government export guarantees however given the current rather poor political relations between Washington and Islamabad this "order" may yet take some time to be confirmed.

The financing is already in place. Expect the order to hits Boeing's books shortly.

What are the details of the financing? I find it difficult to believe PIA alone has the financial strength to back this deal.
Boston, USA
 
imiakhtar
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Mon May 28, 2012 2:15 pm

Quoting cloud4000 (Reply 9):
What are the details of the financing?

As previously mentioned, US EXIM.
Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
 
kaitak
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Mon May 28, 2012 5:56 pm

I'm not so surprised about the fact that they're getting new aircraft (they clearly need them), but that they are getting aircraft of this size; I would have thought that aircraft of intermediate size would be a bigger priority, perhaps 788s to replace the A310s, or 73G/738s to replace the 733s (which are pretty ancient at this stage).
 
aeroblogger
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Mon May 28, 2012 5:58 pm

Considering that they run 744s with people in the lavatories due to lack of seats, I think this capacity is going to be greatly appreciated...
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imiakhtar
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Mon May 28, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 12):
Considering that they run 744s with people in the lavatories due to lack of seats, I think this capacity is going to be greatly appreciated...

Absolute codswallop. PK has never operated the 744.

Quoting cloud4000 (Reply 9):
What are the details of the financing?

I forgot to add that the details were released by the airline CEO during a Senate hearing. He also revealed that PK had received a 50% discount from Boeing off the list price.

Managing Director PIA, Nadeem Khan Yousufzai on Friday informed the Senate Defence Committee that it would purchase aircraft from Boeing without the guarantee of government of Pakistan. The actual price is $190 million but due to our good past reputation, the company will provide us at $150 million and termed it a good deal. He assured the committee that it is a fair deal without any kickbacks and rejected reports in this regard.

http://www.brecorder.com/general-news/172/1159357/
Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
 
bennett123
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Mon May 28, 2012 9:43 pm

50% discount, and then another $40M off due to "their good reputation" and no government guarantee on loan as well.

Boeing must be very keen.
 
bojangles
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Mon May 28, 2012 11:29 pm

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 13):
Absolute codswallop. PK has never operated the 744.

Considering the flag next to the poster's name, a not unsurprising dig!
 
aeroblogger
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Mon May 28, 2012 11:42 pm

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 13):

Absolute codswallop. PK has never operated the 744.

My bad - it was a 743.

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2012...sengers-in-plane%E2%80%99s-toilet/

The point is that a large widebody was still not big enough...

[Edited 2012-05-28 16:52:10]
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mffoda
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Tue May 29, 2012 2:59 am

Speaking of "Absolute codswallop"...

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 13):
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 12):
Considering that they run 744s with people in the lavatories due to lack of seats, I think this capacity is going to be greatly appreciated...

Absolute codswallop. PK has never operated the 744.
Quoting bojangles (Reply 15):
Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 13):
Absolute codswallop. PK has never operated the 744.

Considering the flag next to the poster's name, a not unsurprising dig!

Personally, I think most members on this site would have automatically understood what the poster was saying... Without trying to go down the I'm smarter then you are trail... If he simply said 747, would this nonsense even be discussed?

Its sort of like saying... He was killed with a 30 caliber round... And then arguing if it was a .308 Win., 30-06 or a 300 Win Mag! Does it really matter? They are all 30 caliber...

Sorry, aeroblogger... I'm sure you can handle yourself... and these pointless comments.

Regards
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
aeroblogger
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Tue May 29, 2012 3:07 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 17):


Sorry, aeroblogger... I'm sure you can handle yourself... and these pointless comments

I was under the impression that I had already handled it in Post 16... Regardless, knowing that somebody agrees with me is always nice  .

Here's the original A.net thread for anyone who has forgotten:
Oversold! 2 Pax Allowed To Fly In Washroom On PIA (by YYZAMS Feb 17 2012 in Civil Aviation)#1
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777way
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:34 pm

Two more 777s will be taken on dry lease for three years any variant is suitable according to the new MD, these are not part of the five 773s on order, rumored that PIA may also resume Chicago from September via Amsterdam.
 
tk1244
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 19):
rumored that PIA may also resume Chicago from September via Amsterdam

I hope so, finally PIA will operate 777s to Amsterdam  
"The future is in the skies. For any nation that cannot defend its skies will never be confident of its future." Atatürk
 
reifel
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:03 pm

Love the investigation reports link. On a side note, there is a report of a Air Blue A321 Crash. On the official CAA report on the first page there is a picture of a A320... It's a detail but this is just not right on such a report. Sorry for being off topic  
 
babybus
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:38 pm

This is probably a 'sorry' to America for hiding Bin Laden.

Expanding the fleet at this time does seem odd and I can think of no other explanation.

They will probably be next in line to order the 748.

[Edited 2012-06-08 07:39:09]
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:10 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 22):
This is probably a 'sorry' to America for hiding Bin Laden.

I really doubt this B-77W order has anything to do with that.

Quoting babybus (Reply 22):
They will probably be next in line to order the 748.

If it is capacity they need, then yes, they need the B-748I and not the B-77W.
 
AT
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:04 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 23):
If it is capacity they need, then yes, they need the B-748I and not the B-77W.

funny I was thinking the very same thing and then saw your post! The 748 would be a good fit, especially as PIA, as well as the market it supports, is about capacity, not frequency.

The above story about the passengers in the toilet sounds too good to be true. For starters would it be legal? And how would it work practically?
 
777way
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:11 pm

The toilet story could be false, however they were no ordinary passengers but members or chiefs of one of the PIA unions, so hand in hand with pilots.
 
777way
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:39 pm

New tender showing four 734, four 738 and two 777 any type, required on dry lease from September 2012, previous tenders never came to fruition so lets see if this one does.

[Edited 2012-06-16 11:43:25]
 
bennett123
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:19 pm

You do not state the proposed lease period.

I assume it is fairly short as the remaining B737-400's must be getting somewhat elderly.
 
justloveplanes
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:20 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 23):

Quoting babybus (Reply 22):
This is probably a 'sorry' to America for hiding Bin Laden.

I really doubt this B-77W order has anything to do with that.

I was thinking the opposite actually, a peace offering over the recent US/Pakistan friendly fire US to Pakistan. Could be wrong.
 
777way
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:03 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 27):
You do not state the proposed lease period.

The two 777s are for three years, dont now about the 737s.
 
BestWestern
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:26 am

The Pakistan government are defaulting on sovereign payments

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-New...nt-defaults-on-sovereign-guarantee

How can Pakistan afford new 777s?
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
777way
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:18 pm

The tender for 734 has been dropped they now want more 738s on option besides the ones tendered for.
 
aeroblogger
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 31):
The tender for 734 has been dropped they now want more 738s on option besides the ones tendered for.

Good to hear. 734s would need replacement far too soon. Nice to see the fleet getting upgraded.
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na
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:31 pm

I had hoped PIA would become a client for 748s. Instead more 777s, zzzzzzzzzzzzz...
 
BestWestern
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:25 am

PIA can't afford a cardboard box, nevermind a 748....
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
777way
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:26 pm

I think if they wanted 748s due to delusional fleet planning they would have opted for those instead of the the more economically viable and realistic 77W, regardless of wether or not they cant afford them five more are coming as would the 748s if they had chosen those instead, but I hate their current livery most on the 747s, province tails would have still looked better than this, though I didnt even like that style on the 747 fleet.
 
timberwolf24
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:48 pm

Is there anything more on the rumored return to ORD?
Living in LA, ORD/MDW will always be home!
 
777way
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:54 pm

Quoting timberwolf24 (Reply 36):
Is there anything more on the rumored return to ORD?

No.
 
777way
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RE: PIA To Buy More 5 777s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:01 pm

PIA have now tendered for a single 747-400 as well, possibly two years wet lease.