Flytravel
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Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Tue May 29, 2012 2:17 am

With UA serving small airports like CHO and ABE from IAD, would something like ISP-IAD be feasible? I'm thinking it would be similar to WN flying ISP-BWI.

As far as proximity to EWR (the UA hub), ISP is closer to EWR than ABE is to EWR but not by that much, and both are between 60-80 miles from EWR. A driving distance, but a far driving distance away.
 
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Tue May 29, 2012 2:29 am

From what I have been reading in the news lately, WN has been reducing their flight schedule out of ISP..... Also B6 was considering a move to ISP and then pulled out due to not enough accomodations as well as the airport not willing to share the expense of updating the facilities.....with that being said I personally think it would not be a good move on their part to do so especially with their strong presence at EWR......That is just my opinion...
 
Beardown91737
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Tue May 29, 2012 4:07 am

The presence at EWR should not be that much of a deterrent to making ISP a spoke to the IAD hub. There are places that UA flies from IAD that they don't from EWR. It would mostly depend on how UA sees the ISP market as it stands alone. It would also be RJs like UA flies between JFK and IAD.
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wrldtvlr
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Tue May 29, 2012 4:53 am

I recall in 1992 flying on CO from ISP-EWR-MAD. ISP-EWR was a regularly scheduled feeder route to their longhaul routes out of EWR. Fun flight.

With WN drawing back I think AA or UA should restart their ISP-ORD flights. Business travelers out here would welcome the opportunity to connect from ISP rather than schlep into JFK or LGA. Hell, a couple ISP-DFW or ISP-IAH flights wouldn't go unnoticed by us 'east enders'.
 
flyer62
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Tue May 29, 2012 5:37 am

United has never been one to keep mainline is smaller to midsize markets to long my city PWM and 727-100/200 and 737-200 and 300 ,this was back in the 90s then with a blink of an eye it was changed to United Express,which dont count,this was back in the regional jet craze
now the CRJ-700 is not bad,and better that the crj 100/200 still its not United or mainline,and those E-135-E-145s and crj-100 0r 200 need to be removed from airline line service and sent to the scrap heap or sold to be converted into business jets,I call them junk jets and the mainline carriers need to get rid of them,I will not fly on them ever again,would talk a q-400 over any of the barbie jets,now the E-175,E-190.195 is a whole different ball game
,flew themand love them and the airlines needto focuson mor emaine line with A-319,A30/321s and boeing more 737s 70 800 and 900s lets bring flying and service back to where it should be
 
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STT757
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Tue May 29, 2012 11:56 am

Quote:
I recall in 1992 flying on CO from ISP-EWR-MAD. ISP-EWR was a regularly scheduled feeder route to their longhaul routes out of EWR. Fun flight.

EWR-ISP was 5x daily ATR-42, it was ended about ten years ago. ISP-IAD with DH8-200/300s seems doable, as does ISP-ORD with ERJs.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
B6JFKH81
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Tue May 29, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting JBfan1 (Reply 1):
Also B6 was considering a move to ISP and then pulled out due to not enough accomodations as well as the airport not willing to share the expense of updating the facilities.....

B6, based on my knowledge, was never really interested in ISP but good old Uncle Chuck Schumer was being very vocal about pushing them into ISP. I, on more than one occasion (and please remember that I am LIer born and raised and currently reside in Suffolk Co.), have told Uncle Chuck and our leadership that ISP would not be a good idea for various reasons unless we did something really different out of there.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 5):
EWR-ISP was 5x daily ATR-42

Wooooooooooow, that is a blast from the past. I remember that!! IIRC, didn't they have a run to CLE too?
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
GolfBravoRomeo
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Tue May 29, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 5):
EWR-ISP was 5x daily ATR-42, it was ended about ten years ago.

Do you recall the aircrafts type and years of CO's HPN-EWR service? I never saw how that could work, but I agree ISP-IAD should work.
 
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STT757
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Tue May 29, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting GolfBravoRomeo (Reply 7):
Do you recall the aircrafts type and years of CO's HPN-EWR service?

ER3, lasted only a couple years. Also EWR-ACY was 5x daily ATR-42 for a long time, that too ended about 8-10 years ago. Right now for EWR AVP is the shortest route, about 93 miles (4x daily DH-8-200).
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tommy767
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Tue May 29, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):

I'd like to see EWR-ACY added back. Surprised that isn't even a seasonal market to connect to Europe.
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roseflyer
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Tue May 29, 2012 5:41 pm

The basic principle is that O/D is always higher yielding than connecting traffic. US already serves DCA-ISP, which would take the O/D traffic for those going to DC from Long Island who don’t want to drive or take a train via NYC. O/D to IAD would be much lower.

They would then be competing for connecting traffic on top of having a hub not that far away. That means that either fares or local cachement would be what generated traffic. The most significant market out of that area is Florida since it is mostly leisure travel. Southwest already has that market cornered with nonstop service. Chicago is another option, but again Southwest is already in the market.

In general going for connecting traffic from a leisure destination is hard to make money with. Long Island has a huge population, but the plethora of nonstop competition from JFK & LGA makes it a hard market. I would think they would be able to fill the planes, but I doubt it would be profitable.
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STT757
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Tue May 29, 2012 5:56 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 9):
I'd like to see EWR-ACY added back. Surprised that isn't even a seasonal market to connect to Europe.



Me too, even though I live closer to EWR I would drive and park at ACY and connect to a flight at EWR. The parking rate in ACY's parking garage is half of what it is at EWR's long term lots. The Governor is making a big push to remake Atlantic City, first the State took over the tourist areas from the City, then they loaned the money to finish Revel (which is really nice), and now they're in the midst of a huge marketing push. Perhaps they would get the SJTA to offer some incentives for new airline service at ACY, NK is booming but there are plenty of markets they don't fly to that could use ACY service. For example ACY-EWR, plenty of Onepass/Mileage plus members in Monmouth, Ocean, Mercer and Burlington counties whom would use ACY in a second.

4x daily Q300s or something similar.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
a318
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Wed May 30, 2012 1:53 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 10):
US already serves DCA-ISP

When did this service start?
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mjzair
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Wed May 30, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting A318 (Reply 12):

Mid March with the first phase of the LGA/DCA slot transaction
 
spiritair97
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Wed May 30, 2012 2:58 pm

Quoting mjzair (Reply 13):

As I recall, this service began mid-January
 
ckfred
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Wed May 30, 2012 3:17 pm

AA and UA cut back on smaller cities in the Northeast, such as Islip, Manchester, NH, and Providence, because WN started service as alternatives to BOS and LGA/JFK/EWR. Now that WN goes into BOS, LGA, and EWR and is reducing service to the alternative airports, it would be interesting to see of the legacies rethink their service plans.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Thu May 31, 2012 5:37 am

I think the value of ewr slots now makes the acy or isp type routes no longer worth it.

[Edited 2012-05-30 22:40:18]
 
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RWA380
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Thu May 31, 2012 6:43 am

Would this be a return to ISP for UA, or a completely new destination?
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STT757
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Thu May 31, 2012 10:27 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 16):
I think the value of ewr slots now makes the acy or isp type routes no longer worth it.

But AVP, PHL and ITH are worth the slots?
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Thu May 31, 2012 11:09 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17):


Would this be a return to ISP for UA, or a completely new destination?

UAEX flew IAD-ISP for years in the Atlantic Coast days so this would be a return. Not sure if UA flew ORD-ISP but AA certainly did. Given UA's relative weakness at JFK, ISP to both IAD and ORD wouldn't seem like too much of a stretch, especially with WN dropping MDW-ISP.
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Flytravel
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Thu May 31, 2012 5:14 pm

Suffolk Co. is listed with 1.4M residents, that is more than Richmond MSA, and it's said to have a high median income. The eastern part of Nassau County appears equidistant to JFK/LGA as it is to ISP, but most if not all areas of Suffolk Co. are closer to ISP. The western side of Suffolk Co. is just at 1 hour from LGA/JFK, but more in distance to EWR.

a. Is that county predominately suburban/exurban, or developed enough with businesses: mid-size and large, that are located there that might warrant traffic into that region from companies based in Chicago or DC/ No. VA?

From what I know, the eastern portion is frequented by very affluent families, but is that area diverse socio-economically?

b. How popular is the area in terms of bringing in tourist activity relative to other places - is it like areas in Maine or less popular, more exclusive?
c. Anything from a demographic perspective, or airport perspective (other than LGA/JFK/EWR in proximity) that might be hindering more service at ISP?

[Edited 2012-05-31 10:19:08]
 
Art at ISP
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Thu May 31, 2012 5:37 pm

ISP-DCA was started on or about March 27th, as part of the slot swap. I am not sure of the numbers, but with rare exceptions it is as or more expensive than the shuttle from LGA.

What really hurts ISP is the limited selection of airlines to hubs. DCA is a step in the right direction but more choice is needed. With WN canning MDW, the time is ripe for more ORD service-and there are new more efficient aircraft which could make it profitable-such as perhaps E170. I just don't think 135-145's are practical any more, nor are the CRJ-200's but they're still around.

With regard to IAD, with US adding DCA, it makes it both a good and bad idea at the same time. I think that the key to ISP is the Q400, not the DH8-200/300. It has capacity, and relatively low break-even load factor, and is very efficient. I have spoken on a number of occasions to my contacts at UA management (old CO), and they had more interest in revisiting ISP-CLE on the Q400, but of course none of this has come to pass.

When DL had service to both CVG and ATL from ISP, I flew them almost every week-in fact my flights home from CVG on THursday nights were mainly with the same FA for a while, and we got pretty friendly. I think the economics (or lack thereof) of the CRJ did a lot to kill that service.

It is interesting however that you can fly a CRJ or DH8 from ISP to PHL and onward to just about anywhere for $250-$500, but to get off in PHL, it is more than likely well over $700....which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever but hey it's the airline business.

FInally with regard to ISP-EWR, that would be a GREAT idea to try again with a Dash or a Q, but as it was explained to me, with any FAA traffic restrictions, those would be the first flights to be cancelled, so they doubted they would be feasible.

ISP needs to reinvent itself-as long as fares from there remain significantly higher than from LGA/JFK/EWR, there is little hope of revitalizing it and getting more airlines to come aboard. I had heard Air Canada was looking, but that probably only excited about 5 people....
 
rwy04lga
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Thu May 31, 2012 6:28 pm

Quoting flyer62 (Reply 4):

Ran out? Here's some more! ............................................................................
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:19 am

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 6):
but good old Uncle Chuck Schumer was being very vocal about pushing them into ISP

That's what the voters elected good old Uncle Chuck Schumer to do - promote services for the citizens of NY. Convenient Air service into ISP sounds like a reasonable quest and a benefit to those in the vicinity.
 
nomorerjs
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:36 am

ISP - ORD will probably happen soon, on jungle jets. Part of the Chicago (ORD/MDW) to New York / Newark (LGA/EWR/JFK/HPN/ISP/SWF) frequency that would make Domino's Pizza happy, every 10 minutes or less between AA, DL, NK, WN, UA. Now if we could just get a "Double Double" on the route!
 
B6JFKH81
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:49 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 23):
That's what the voters elected good old Uncle Chuck Schumer to do - promote services for the citizens of NY. Convenient Air service into ISP sounds like a reasonable quest and a benefit to those in the vicinity.

...and I don't disagree JAAlbert. My airline owes a lot to Chuck for their existance, and as a resident of Long Island, I would love to see my own airline go out to ISP. The problem is where would we go that doesn't overlap WN (because that would pretty much flood the market and both airlines would go into bloodbath mode with fares until someone pulls out) and can be done with a healthy operating margin. There is obviously a reason B6 hasn't gone into ISP yet in their 12 years of flying in the NY area.
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
soon7x7
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:40 am

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 25):
There is obviously a reason B6 hasn't gone into ISP yet in their 12 years of flying in the NY area.


Actually last year saw on three occasions, JetBlue A320's @ ISP. ( Charters most probably). If a carrier the likes of WN can't make a go of ISP then no one can. US has a minority presence with some D-8's. Business flyer's need them but the flying populace on Long Island is a family base and wants to see at the very least 737's. ERJ's, CRJ's are a problem with both capacity, routes and baggage restrictions. Aside from all that the town of ISLIP for some reason has no desire to watch the airport prosper, they are quite satisfied to watch it barely exist. Landing fees for all will start soon. After an undetermined hour, the fees will double regardless of aircraft type. Murmurings of it going International flew around, they did install a new taxiway/ blast fence, so far haven't seem them used. I even heard of Ryan air tossing it around. According to the Fire Marshall, a Customs Office and new Fire Dept. were to be constructed but I see no evidence of it. WN ridership fell off @ ISP after opening service at LGA. My guess they will soon terminate ISP in the near future if things don't pick up. I would not like to see this happen as they are a fantastic business tool. The prospect of driving to LGA or JFK has my skin crawling. Eastern tried ISP, Air Florida, Northeast, AA, Delta, US Airways had a better service before WN. Think JetBlue could make a good case for ISP but the A320 would have to be part of the fleet manifest.
 
spiritair97
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:38 am

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 25):

B6 was looking at adding service to Florida and the Caribbean from ISP recently, but said that they estimated to not start service to ISP until at least late 2013 because they did not have any availible aircraft to operate routes, partly due to their new slots and routes at LGA. The town of Islip was offering them all kinds of incentives to start flying into ISP, and JetBlue was seriously considering it. Perosnally, I would love to see B6 at ISP. I fly from ISP to Florida frequently and would choose B6 over WN any day of the week.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:06 am

I could see Dash 8 and 50 seat RJ service from ORD and IAD, maybe EWR and to a lesser extent, CLE to ISP. Maybe they can send some ERJ-135 up there...
And for my next miracle, I'm gonna turn water into funk!
 
Art at ISP
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:36 am

ISP-ORD was done with ERJ 135 and 145, and it didn't work then...there is no reason to think it will work now. I think a smaller large aircraft (lol) such as the E-170 would offer better economics than an ERJ. I think they could fill two a day, perhaps three.

Slowly but surely, 50 seaters and less (except Dash 8's) will go away...they are truly the most expensive on a CASM basis. I don't think anyone would venture a Q400 on ISP-ORD--I think CLE would work as long as UA keeps a hub going there. Most likely scenario would be ORD and/or IAD.

WN came in to ISP to get a foothold on the NY market. I think everyone knew that if (when) they were able to get slots at LGA, ISP would become less important to them. So now with the added frequencies at LGA, they are drawing down ISP. I don't think they will leave--they spent a fortune on their wing of the main terminal, but it does appear that loads are down--which could be due to the fact that there are so many other choices from LGA/JFK, and that for the most part fares are significantly higher from ISP.

I love to use ISP--18 minutes from home, close in economical parking, and some of my friends still work there--but there just aren't enough choices for me to get where I need to go efficiently and cost effectively. When US had a better schedule (and before the merger with America Worst), I flew them every week, up to 150k miles a year--connecting through PHL ALL the time. It just no longer makes sense.

I'd like to see a rebirth at ISP, but I don't see it happening any time soon.
 
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jetpixx
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:54 am

I remember flying out of ISP back in the mid-1980's...jumping on an EA 727 (ISP-FLL), I saw a UA 727, US DC9 and AA 727 on the ramp. They also used to get Northeastern Int'l DC8s and 727s, especially the ones with the cloud schemes. And, of course, the Empire F28s, and assorted prop jobs from Pilgrim, Ransome and Mohawk. Ahh, back in the day. IIRC, EA used to run a 757 from PVD-ISP-ATL
 
mark777300
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:17 am

Contrary to what people think, while Eastern Long island is considered to have a large number of high income residents, a lot of Long Island is either middle class or less. The areas closest to ISP are not exactly middle class status, including areas such as Brentwood, Central Islip, Bayshore, etc.... These towns have a larger population that is lower middle class and less. Many of those high class east end residents will most likely not be relying on ISP for flights and will (as funny as it may sound to some) fly in their private jets or even trek their way west to JFK or LGA and fly on one of the legacy carriers.
The east end market is not what the airlines will be expecting or looking for. While LI's population is greater than many smaller cities in the US, It is not exactly an ideal market for many airlines to serve. LI also has a very big and obvious connection to Florida, with many Long islanders like myself having large numbers of family members who live in Florida. This is SWA's staple at ISP. with service to FLL, MCO, and TPA just to name a few, SWA has a niche in the local market that it has mostly to itself. But it relys on that, leisure travelers. Folks visiting family, and those looking to head to FL for vacation. ISP is not a very big business traveler destination. B6 has a much better market at JFK, LGA and EWR, and although I could see them out of ISP in the future, they are better off at the other NYC area airports.

UA might consider a try at it again, probably when and "if" fuel prices ever drop, even lower than they have over the past few weeks, and obviously when the economy should improve. Right now, while LI might seem to have weathered the recession better than other parts of the country, it is seriously having issues in recovering. ISP's short fall has been it's inability to expand and modernize its facilities and offer better connections to the Long Island Railroad at Ronkonoma. The service provided by the LIRR to Ronkonkoma is also hampered by lack of frequency due to a mostly single track operation east of Farmingdale. It will seriously be difficult for 2 airlines such as SWA and B6 to compete against one another for the same markets. I believe (correct me if im wrong) that Spirit tried ISP twice and pulled out both times, and in both instances, serving FLL. Unless SWA drastically reduces its operations at ISP, i don't see many other airlines rushing to get into ISP.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:49 am

Quoting jetpixx (Reply 30):
I remember flying out of ISP back in the mid-1980's...jumping on an EA 727 (ISP-FLL), I saw a UA 727, US DC9 and AA 727 on the ramp. They also used to get Northeastern Int'l DC8s and 727s, especially the ones with the cloud schemes. And, of course, the Empire F28s, and assorted prop jobs from Pilgrim, Ransome and Mohawk. Ahh, back in the day. IIRC, EA used to run a 757 from PVD-ISP-ATL

OK, like so many smaller ISP has lost much mainline service, if the money is so good in this area why can't airlines make an ISP operation work enough to stay?
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Art at ISP
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RE: Would UA At ISP Be Feasible?

Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:11 pm

In the case of Southwest, now that they have LGA, they don't need ISP. In the case of the others, I believe it is economics. 35-50 seat jets have just about the highest seat-mile costs in the industry. Coupled with ISP's fees, which are not cheap, you either lose money to remain competitive, or your fares are considerably higher than LGA/JFK/EWR. Add in the fact that as someone stated above, ISP is mostly a leisure market and MUCH more price sensitive, you have what amounts to a perfect storm.

With the right slightly larger aircraft, such as CRJ-700 or ERJ-170 some hub routes may make sense again--or in the case of IAD or CLE, perhaps a Q400. In the current economy, however, it is unlikely that anyone will take the chance. I speak to UA all the time about this, and they had some interest, but not in the near term.

At the end of the day, while the population is there, I don't think the revenue is....

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