Gonzalo
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Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Wed May 30, 2012 3:13 pm

I have to recognize that this is a surprise for me.
A good one !!  http://atwonline.com/airline-finance...-reveals-huge-expansion-plans-0530


Rgds.

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Ma346
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Wed May 30, 2012 7:11 pm

I was in Nairobi airport 2 years ago and couldn't find a hotel to overnight. It will be difficult to count on transfer passangers trough Nairobi. Or is there that much local demand? I don't think so.

Sound like they have the most supervision now in eastern Africa to be THE african airline. Geografically seems good,

The airport could hardly handle such traffic. They can bild a bigger airport, but no chance to have the proper people to run it. You can buy western managers, but that is not the point.
 
SSPhoenix
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Wed May 30, 2012 7:39 pm

Thank for posting the article Gonzalo,


We all know that KQ have enjoyed a relatively good rate of expansion since the deal with KLM, and adopting better (Privatised) organisational structure.

One just needs to look at the 'influx' of the Gulf carriers at NBO, EK was and is the dominant one, with QR and EY most likely looking to increase capacity - Why? Because Kenya is a hub Geographically (Ma346 - as you correctly observe) for the region of East Africa, there is a huge Indian, Chinese, Australian and growing American presence there.

This presents KQ with the opportunity to offer travellers point-to-point type destinations, and thus by-pass the middle-eastern hubs. I have to say, the number of aircraft and the capital required for an airline like KQ is ... hair raising - I do hope they are realistic as well as opportunistic, it will be a shame to see another case such as Austral (Now with a shrinkage plan)

NBO airport is a nightmare ... I'm a Kenyan living in the UK, and as wonderful it is to go home, I dread going through JKIA; before moving to the UK 7 years ago there all sorts of talk where the Belgian govt had issued funding to Kenyan Govt (it was in 100s of millions of $$$) to develop a new terminal for JKIA .... nothing substantial came out of it - just a fancy face lift.I know this is besides the point - but IT IS THE POINT that will limit KQ from creating a quality travel hub within East Africa.

Eldoret is already a Cargo hub thanks to huge demand for import goods and fast track clearing customs - Maybe KQ can tap into this market with the 77Fs.

As far as I'm concerned, can't wait to see the 77W in KQ Colours .... My God it will be a thing of beauty
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kaitak
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Wed May 30, 2012 7:41 pm

Quoting Ma346 (Reply 1):
They can bild a bigger airport, but no chance to have the proper people to run it. You can buy western managers, but that is not the point.

They can train them; Kenya has a pretty large population and I'm sure that KQ would be a very sought after employer in the country. Unlike Qatar and the UAE, which doesn't really have the local population to support a major carrier (and therefore relies heavily on Expats), Kenya does.

Hasn't KQ ordered 77Ws? When are the first of these being delivered?
 
migair54
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Wed May 30, 2012 8:26 pm

first of all they really need a huge expansion in NBO, because right now during some hours is full... no place to park more planes and people sitting on the floor in the terminal. The new satellite is not enough. Even the Business lounge is terrible... it´s so small an always pack... I have been many times and it´s so hard to find a place to sit, specially in the evening when few long haul leaves.. between 9-11pm... Bangkok, London, Paris, plus KLM to AMS and all the regional and many african destinations..... And then if you go out situation is worse... there´s no place to sit and not even a proper coffee shop or restaurant.... one of the worse airports in the world for sure...

New Runway... the space is there but they are not starting even taxiway M is ready to be extended but nothing yet....

The airport is just too small (terminal, Parkings, Duty free, parking stands, runways, hangars) and not only KQ but all the other airlines are planning to expand and new airlines opening soon...

Also on top of all of this add the fact that Kenya Airways has not enough pilots and the union is blocking the hiring of expats, so some cancellation and delay caused by the lack of crew member. The company is trying to create a paralel airline because all this problems...
 
spiritair97
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Wed May 30, 2012 11:45 pm

I hope JFK (or any other Northeastern airport) is on that list.  
 
Gonzalo
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Wed May 30, 2012 11:51 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 4):
Also on top of all of this add the fact that Kenya Airways has not enough pilots and the union is blocking the hiring of expats, so some cancellation and delay caused by the lack of crew member. The company is trying to create a paralel airline because all this problems...

Sometimes the unions are a real drag against the growth of a company, we have some sad examples here in Latin America, let's hope KQ could find the way to deal with them and keep this plans alive.

Rgds.

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thomasphoto60
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Wed May 30, 2012 11:55 pm

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 5):
I hope JFK (or any other Northeastern airport) is on that list.

I suspect that it or EWR probably are, along with IAD or BWI. I also seem to recall reading a thread here some years back that KQ was hinting a a MIA service, though nothing ever materialized. As they reference North America, not specifically the US, YYZ is another likely market.
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yellowtail
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 12:14 am

I go thru NBO regularly (BA, KL, VS etc)...and all I can say is that NBO is desperate need of upgrade and expansion.
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FSDan
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 12:28 am

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 7):
I suspect that it or EWR probably are, along with IAD or BWI. I also seem to recall reading a thread here some years back that KQ was hinting a a MIA service, though nothing ever materialized. As they reference North America, not specifically the US, YYZ is another likely market.

KQ is a member of SkyTeam, so I wouldn't be surprised to see JFK and/or ATL in the future.
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RWA380
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 12:42 am

Quoting FSDan (Reply 9):

KQ is a member of SkyTeam, so I wouldn't be surprised to see JFK and/or ATL in the future

JFK has been on KQ's short list for years, I remember being at my desk 3-4 years ago reading a trade mag on KQ and their new 777's, and JFK was mentioned several times, but Kenya is cat 2 still, IIRC. And new flights are not allowed until that changes. IIRC, DL wanted to start JFK-NBO and was not allowed to at some point in the past.
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yellowtail
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 1:43 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 10):
IIRC, DL wanted to start JFK-NBO and was not allowed to at some point in the past.

"wanted to start" is an understatement...I believe the plane was literally at the gate.
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RWA380
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 1:47 am

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 11):
"wanted to start" is an understatement...I believe the plane was literally at the gate

Wow, ok. I do remember seeing the flights listed in Sabre, but they were always unavailable to sell pending govt approval.
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dtw9
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 2:13 am

If I remember correctly, there was talk a couple of years ago of KQ starting service to DTW.
 
spiritair97
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 2:48 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 10):

What kind of aircraft were Delta gonna use on that route?
 
warren747sp
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 2:50 am

With SAA quickly going down the drain. I think they are smart trying to become the premier airline in Africa.
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cmf
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 3:18 am

Quoting SSPhoenix (Reply 2):
there all sorts of talk where the Belgian govt had issued funding to Kenyan Govt (it was in 100s of millions of $$$) to develop a new terminal for JKIA

Why would the Belgian government spend 100s of millions on an airport in Kenya? Did a search and found nothing but think it is way more than a government would give to such a project. Even less so when there isn't the colony connection.
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ETinCaribe
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 4:13 am

Hi guys,

the ATW article is a teaser compared to the very comprehensive (surprisingly so) article in CAPA, which was discussed here a few weeks ago.

Article: http://www.centreforaviation.com/ana...-inhabited-continent-by-2017-71784

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 7):
I suspect that it or EWR probably are, along with IAD or BWI. I also seem to recall reading a thread here some years back that KQ was hinting a a MIA service, though nothing ever materialized. As they reference North America, not specifically the US, YYZ is another likely market.
Quoting FSDan (Reply 9):
KQ is a member of SkyTeam, so I wouldn't be surprised to see JFK and/or ATL in the future.

Both of you are mostly wrong: it will be YYZ and IAD!!! Not sure either one makes sense as both are Star hubs.

JKIA is in bad shape, and help is NOT on the way, see: African Aviation Thread Part 6 (by sepultallica Mar 2 2012 in Civil Aviation)#25

Quoting kaitak (Reply 3):
Hasn't KQ ordered 77Ws? When are the first of these being delivered?

It indeed has ordered two: first coming in Oct '13 and the second in May '14, see: http://ww.airliners.net/aviation-for...read.main/5277968/?threadid=527796

For those interested, read our past discussions on KQ plans at: http://ww.airliners.net/aviation-for...general_aviation/read.main/5440973
 
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RWA380
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 4:42 am

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 14):
What kind of aircraft were Delta gonna use on that route?

I am unsure what aircraft type DL was planning to use. n/s would have had to have been 777, but I thought the original plan was to get to NBO old PA style, via a western Africa stop enroute like ACC, then I guess a 763 would have been ample lift for a long tag route like that, IIRC it was not planned as daily, at least at first.
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antskip
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 4:48 am

I am very keen on the plan to connect with Australia (via PER). It would be great to have another option from here to the middle parts of of Africa - and on to Europe. NBO as a distributive hub, in the DXB way.
 
ETinCaribe
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 8:04 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 18):
I am unsure what aircraft type DL was planning to use. n/s would have had to have been 777, but I thought the original plan was to get to NBO old PA style, via a western Africa stop enroute like ACC, then I guess a 763 would have been ample lift for a long tag route like that, IIRC it was not planned as daily, at least at first.

IIRC, it was to be a 763ER via DKR.
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migair54
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 8:16 am

Quoting antskip (Reply 19):
I am very keen on the plan to connect with Australia (via PER).

Right now they don´t have sufficient ETOPS to operate the route, Maybe in a few years with B787.


According to some info I have from KQ insiders they are planning to start asap NBO-DKR-JFK with B767 then later will be direct with B787 or B77ER. Actually the logic choice is JFK then ATL maybe because of Skyteam presence in both airports. Also in plans are NBO-BKK, NBO-HKG, NBO-PEK and in study is also NBO-KUL (big African community, students and business in Malaysia and good cargo loads)... Seem like yields in CAN are not good to operate a dedicate flight and it will continue via BKK because now biggest part of the cargo they use to transport from CAN to Africa will go with the new Cargo division.

We will start seeing more movement when the first B787 arrives, they just got another B767 but they will use to release some pressure and overwork on the actual long haul fleet and they also add New Delhi. Embraers keep arriving and the Embraer simulator will be soon in KQ training facility with the B737 sim.
 
ETinCaribe
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 9:11 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 21):
According to some info I have from KQ insiders they are planning to start asap NBO-DKR-JFK with B767 then later will be direct with B787 or B77ER. Actually the logic choice is JFK then ATL maybe because of Skyteam presence in both airports. Also in plans are NBO-BKK, NBO-HKG, NBO-PEK and in study is also NBO-KUL (big African community, students and business in Malaysia and good cargo loads)... Seem like yields in CAN are not good to operate a dedicate flight and it will continue via BKK because now biggest part of the cargo they use to transport from CAN to Africa will go with the new Cargo division.

Interesting insight migair.

Would Senegal allow them 5th freedom rights out/into DKR? or this will just be a technical stop? Makes me wonder if they were feeding back info to CAPA for that long and detailed article or it was a bad plan from the get-go and they are already adjusting it?

JFK definitely makes more sense than IAD or even YYZ as a starting point. Crowded market but can probably work for KQ esp if they can eventually go direct with the 77W in end of 2013.
 
nclmedic
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 9:14 am

Quoting SSPhoenix (Reply 2):
NBO airport is a nightmare
Quoting SSPhoenix (Reply 2):
IT IS THE POINT that will limit KQ from creating a quality travel hub within East Africa.

Absolutely, 100% agree. NBO is by far the worst airport I've ever transited (yes, transited!) through in my years of travel. Effectively a large car park. KQ would need a new airport (unrealistic) or a new terminal (more likely) before they could even think of tempting passengers away from Euro and Middle East Carriers.
 
SSPhoenix
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 9:57 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 16):
Why would the Belgian government spend 100s of millions on an airport in Kenya? Did a search and found nothing but think it is way more than a government would give to such a project. Even less so when there isn't the colony connection.

My apologies people ... I should have backed up my point with a figure. And it was wrong to state that 'just' the Belgian Government gave such an amount to Kenya to develop JKIA. We have a family friend (expat) who worked in the IMF - she says it was a jointly funded project headed by the IMF - Where the US, UK, Belgium (Representing the EU Block), Japan were interested in NBO developing JKIA into a capable hub. Dr. Titus Naikuni, KQ CEO was totally behind it - BUT it involved the government committing to a partnership between the Private Sector and Govt Development Body.

I only managed to (rather quickly) find this:

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/I...TKENYA/Resources/air_transport.pdf

As a side note ... does anyone know if KQ is restricted by NBOs altitude on it's current routes?

Also, what Engines have they selected for the 787s?
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kc135topboom
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 1:38 pm

What airplanes do they have on order, in addition to the B-777s and B-787s? Is there a chance they might order some B-747-8s, both "F" and "I"? I would think they could get new build B-747-8s in 2-3 years, which is fairly quickly.
 
peanuts
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 2:12 pm

This all makes sense. There is definitely an opportunity here.
I hope someone also is thinking "facilities" though. Can't grow one without the other...
 
nickofatlanta
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Thu May 31, 2012 8:57 pm

With regards to US expansion, I seem to remember that part owner, KL, was discouraging / possibly vetoed KQ plans to start service out of fear of losing valuable transit traffic that it has traditionally flown via AMS.
 
migair54
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:34 am

Quoting nickofatlanta (Reply 27):
With regards to US expansion, I seem to remember that part owner, KL, was discouraging / possibly vetoed KQ plans to start service out of fear of losing valuable transit traffic that it has traditionally flown via AMS.

It´s better to lose that pax to KQ than to other carriers, like ET, EK or QR. Market is there and a direct flight from the USA to NBO then to the whole Africa is much better than going USA-AMS-NBO-Africa... So i´m sure they can attract very good yields.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 26):
I hope someone also is thinking "facilities" though. Can't grow one without the other...

That´s the problem.. they usually only think about and don´t do anything else.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 25):
in addition to the B-777s and B-787s? Is there a chance they might order some B-747-8s, both "F" and "I"? I would think they could get new build B-747-8s in 2-3 years, which is fairly quickly.

They are adding B777, B787, Embraer 170-190 and some more B737-767...

I don´t think you will ever see B748 with KQ, it´s much more logical to use B777, 767, 737 for cargo, all types that they have already in operation, crews, techs, spares, experience... they have everything.

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 22):
Would Senegal allow them 5th freedom rights out/into DKR? or this will just be a technical stop?

I don´t know if they will aprove or not but I guess it will be an addition to the service they already have to DKR, actually it´s one stop service using B737-700. I´m almost sure that it will be a very popular flight given connectivity with DL in NYC and KQ in NBO.
 
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frigatebird
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:56 am

Quoting SSPhoenix (Reply 24):
Also, what Engines have they selected for the 787s?

GEnx.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 28):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 25):in addition to the B-777s and B-787s? Is there a chance they might order some B-747-8s, both "F" and "I"? I would think they could get new build B-747-8s in 2-3 years, which is fairly quickly.

They are adding B777, B787, Embraer 170-190 and some more B737-767...

KQ has 9 787s on order directly from Boeing, first one to be delivered Q4 2013. Should be one of the prettier 787s    They're planning to have 32 787s in their fleet by 2021...    I guess the 767s have left KQ's fleet by then, so I wonder what type they have in mind for the 15 other widebody pax airplanes. 4x 77E now, 2x 77W to be leased, and???
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cmf
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:41 pm

Quoting SSPhoenix (Reply 24):
it was a jointly funded project headed by the IMF - Where the US, UK, Belgium (Representing the EU Block), Japan were interested in NBO developing JKIA into a capable hub.

That sounds much more reasonable. Thanks for filling in the missing information.
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ETinCaribe
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:45 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 28):
I don´t know if they will aprove or not but I guess it will be an addition to the service they already have to DKR, actually it´s one stop service using B737-700. I´m almost sure that it will be a very popular flight given connectivity with DL in NYC and KQ in NBO.

well, for starters, DL is not going to be too happy, since they do fly JFK-DKR albeit 3x weekly. Hence it may have to be direct NBO-JFK or with just a technical stop at DKR. Or choose a different stop, say BKO or BJL. Mali has a large expat community in the NYC metro area so could use a direct flight.

ET tried that even as far back as in the 90s and did not work. Also, with the new Senegal Airlines, I also would think the Senegalese will be reluctant to allow KQ any 5th freedom rights. But I could be wrong.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 29):
KQ has 9 787s on order directly from Boeing, first one to be delivered Q4 2013. Should be one of the prettier 787s    They're planning to have 32 787s in their fleet by 2021...    I guess the 767s have left KQ's fleet by then, so I wonder what type they have in mind for the 15 other widebody pax airplanes. 4x 77E now, 2x 77W to be leased, and???

9x 787 on firm order, 4 more as option. No other direct orders that I am aware of, but as you mentioned, there is a need for:
- 19x 787 (32 - 9 (firrm orders) - 4 (options, assuming exercised at some point)
- 4x 77L
- 7x 77F
- 2x 77W (2 already ordered from GECAS)
- 20x 737 (9 today, 29 total 73W+738 in 2021)
- 26x E190 (5 today, 31 in 2021)

Some nice orders in the works. Here is the pax fleet forecast from CAPA:
http://www.centreforaviation.com/images/stories/2012/april/16/kenya_airways_passenger_fleet.png
 
AF022
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:46 pm

Quoting antskip (Reply 19):
I am very keen on the plan to connect with Australia (via PER). It would be great to have another option from here to the middle parts of of Africa

Is there really that much traffic between Australia and Africa? The risk of a long flight between NBO and Australia must be very high. And where? PER, MEL or SYD? If they fly nonstop to PER can they tap into MEL & SYD with local carriers?
 
777way
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:52 pm

According to CAPA they are also launching Beirut this winter and plan to resume Karachi next year.
 
LIPZ
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RE: Kenya Airways Huge Expansion Plans

Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:37 am

If they are not able to make IST, FCO work it is not believable they can fly to PRG, BER and other such places in Europe.

[Edited 2012-06-06 00:37:42]