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TK787
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Turkish Aviation June 2012

Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:42 am

Hello there Turkish Aviation Fans,
Welcome to the June edition of our threads;


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bulent Kavakkoru - SpotTR



-Is this a definite "GO" for the second runway at SAW?
-I can see that ONur is getting a 320 and receives 2 x 321s from TK.
-KK also gets another 320
-Sunexpress gets 3 x 738s from Ajet.
-TK receives latest 738 "Burgaz" and also the 3rd 739ER.
-TK started Leipzig.
-Also TK made the news by firing 305 of its employees via text messages. 233 flights cancelled. What is the TK employee morale at this point?
-Besides these cancellations and the usual Lodos cancellations, I have a feeling TK will be in the red in the 2nd quarter also. One plus thing that the oil prices keep going down, but it might not reflect on the bottom line till the end of the year.
-What is the latest on delays? For the last 3 months or so, IST was having a real hard time keeping up with all the traffic, any late personal experiences from our members??

Thanks for your participation, sharing of news; rumors, pictures, ideas, suggestions, accusations and sense of humor for these years.
Have a hot summer!!!
 
northstar80
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:11 am

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
-I can see that ONur is getting a 320 and receives 2 x 321s from TK.
-KK also gets another 320
-Sunexpress gets 3 x 738s from Ajet.

Interesting is that now, Onur and Atlas became Airbus only operators and Pegagus and Sunex became Boeing only operators (I think Sunex was always boeing)   
 
ankaraflyjet
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:19 am

TK is shelving all AnadoluJet international flights and taking over the international flights operation to/from ESB (Finally !!!)

According to TK reservation system TK will offer following non stop service to/from ESB

Amsterdam (Thrice weekly)
Brussels (Thrice weekly)
Cologne/Bonn (Thrice weekly)
Dusseldorf (Five weekly)
Moscow (Daily)
Stockholm (Thrice weekly)
Teheran (Five weekly)
Vienna (Four weekly)

TK already started to operate the following routes ex ESB since 2 months and these also remain
Baghdad (3 weekly)
Stuttgart (2 weekly)

This is a very sudden decision it looks like. It seems AnadoluJet is down to domestic operations only.
 
cuban8
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:42 am

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
Thanks for your participation, sharing of news; rumors, pictures, ideas, suggestions, accusations and sense of humor for these years

Hi TK787 and thank you for another thread starter. As always very good, but very focused on TK operations and not that much the other carriers   So I will try to add a few more topics and rumors.

I heard last week from a very high source rumors that PGS is considering an order for 70-120 Airbus NEOs. Is there a chance we get to know more at Farnborough?

I've also heard rumors that SunExpress may open a base in South America and start regional operations to feed Lufthansa's longhaul network. I'd take that rumor with a pinch of salt though.

Vip Airlines is supposed to start operations during this month or possibly next. According to what I know, they have two owned A320's and are looking to buy/merge with another Turkish Airlines to obtain an AOC. The owner is an Iranian millionaire and the first flights will be between the two countries. Looking forward to see their livery in reality.



Also Seabird Airlines is supposed to start operation soon with their twin-otters connecting Istanbul to popular west coast islands and resorts. Anyone having information when they will commence operations?

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
-Also TK made the news by firing 305 of its employees via text messages. 233 flights cancelled. What is the TK employee morale at this point?

I heard this as well. Very sad news for Turkish Airlines, it's employees and Turkey in general. I'm against striking, but you still should have the option. I wonder what the Talpa has to say about this. My sincere support to fellow TK members on A.net and the many pilots and hostesses i know in Turkish Airlines....
When business goes to hell, you get rid of three things. Your private jet, your yacht and your mistress..........and most importantly in that order.
~ Russian Billionaire ~
 
TurkishWings
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:50 am

Quoting Northstar80 (Reply 1):
Interesting is that now, Onur and Atlas became Airbus only operators and Pegagus and Sunex became Boeing only operators (I think Sunex was always boeing)   

Correct... SunExpress was, as far as I remember, always a Boeing only operator...

Quoting ankaraflyjet (Reply 2):
TK is shelving all AnadoluJet international flights and taking over the international flights operation to/from ESB (Finally !!!)

According to TK reservation system TK will offer following non stop service to/from ESB

Amsterdam (Thrice weekly)
Brussels (Thrice weekly)
Cologne/Bonn (Thrice weekly)
Dusseldorf (Five weekly)
Moscow (Daily)
Stockholm (Thrice weekly)
Teheran (Five weekly)
Vienna (Four weekly)

TK already started to operate the following routes ex ESB since 2 months and these also remain
Baghdad (3 weekly)
Stuttgart (2 weekly)

This is a very sudden decision it looks like. It seems AnadoluJet is down to domestic operations only.

This I think is in line with the decision of closing AnadoluJet and transferring domestic operations to SunExpress... I seem to remember such a discussion a while back...


On another note, I decided not to fly with TK at all if possible. I am even cancelling my Miles&Smiles credit card and start using Adios or something... Any suggestions on the best credit card to collect miles?? Anything with the current government influence is off my list... I am even seriously thinking of relocating before it gets really really worse... I'd take any country at this point...
Coffee - Tea or Me?
 
bmibaby737
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:11 am

Can anyone confirm TC-JIK has now been wfu & stored?
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:48 pm

http://www.airkule.com/default.asp?page=haber&id=11838
TK decides not to buy LOT.
They got enough on their plate as it is.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:04 pm

The idea of a regional jet looks is back on the plate @ TK.
COO TK COO Abdullah Soner Akkurt was quoted at an airline conference that such model would help on thin markets, and for example open up new secondary markets in Europe for TK.

Quoting TK787 (Reply 6):
TK decides not to buy LOT.

   I could never identify any significant synergy benefits with loss making LOT, and frankly am relieved they opted to pass.

One very bad point about purchasing LOT would be the inability to actually own it fully, as Polish law only provided for up to 49% investment. So this could have been another B&H scenario, where TK shows up with the money, but cant control the operation and decisions fully.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
JU068
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:29 pm

Quoting ankaraflyjet (Reply 2):

Do you know how many aircraft Turkish Airlines will have in Ankara?
 
ThereandBack
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:17 pm

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
-What is the latest on delays? For the last 3 months or so, IST was having a real hard time keeping up with all the traffic, any late personal experiences from our members??

I flew TK2525 BJV - IST and it landed very late. We went into a holding patter from a long time and once we landed we had to wait again for a gate to open up at the domestic terminal. The flight was supposed to land at 23:45 and I think we got home around 2AM.

I posted a TR of my latest TK flights today if anyone is interested. TK has really stepped up their product and in flight service. I feel like the crew that is used to mostly Turkish passengers is struggling with dealing with so many foreigners from all over the world as the airline expanded so rapidly. What do you all think?
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:23 pm

Thanks for the awesome Trip Report thereandback, well written and nice pics.
Welcome back and hope to see you more often around here.
What were the loads like on TK's 3rd flight? I am planning on taking that one;
Leaving JFK 12:50pm arriving IST 5:40am. Can not think of a better time to arrive to beat the traffic at IST?
And if you could, did you feel any difference between the 77W and the 333 on the route?
Thanks.
 
ThereandBack
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:59 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 10):
What were the loads like on TK's 3rd flight? I am planning on taking that one;

It was pretty full but not 100% full. Some people had the middle aisles to themselves in the back but the forward Y cabin was pretty full. I'd say the flight was maybe like 85% full. TK2 was very packed though. I felt the A333 was more roomier and quieter and I liked having only one neighbor but I also really liked TK's 77W. Both are great airplanes.

The new BJV terminal is very impressive. I wish I could have gotten a better pic but it's going to be a nice first impression of the country to the tourists who will come this summer.
 
mxp
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:18 pm

i will fly TK on sunday MXP-IST and monday IST-LAX. Do u think i will have problems with the strike or its everything ok now?
Thanx
Alberto
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:35 pm

Quoting mxp (Reply 12):

I think you should be fine, seems like all of the flights back to normal, so Bon Voyage.

http://www.airkule.com/default.asp?page=haber&id=11839
TK to Maldives this year, I guess knowing that TK wanted to fly to 35 African destinations by next year, this was expected.
 
ankaraflyjet
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:18 am

Quoting ju068 (Reply 8):

No I don't unfortunatley but AJet a/c usually does not overnight at Ankara hub (around 20) and leave from their destinations as their first early morning departure to Ankara and then they are busy until their last flight in the day back to their destination.

TK also has a lot of roundtrips between ESB and IST during day time but further a/c will be needed to supplement international operation ex ESB I guess.
 
stylo777
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:56 am

Quoting ankaraflyjet (Reply 2):
Quoting ankaraflyjet (Reply 14):

Those flights are usually operated during summer. The last flight goes from IST and instead of an overnight in Europe they squeeze in additional rotations to Anatolia.
 
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nitepilot79
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:11 am

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
Have a hot summer!!!

You got that right! Adana'dayim.  
 
ISTGRU
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:06 am

On a lighter note, I noticed on a round trip last week that the TK inflight safety video has been edited to remove the ManU players - except at the end where they still do a scene with the captain's hat. Good call in my view, that was becoming quite grating!
 
stylo777
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:41 am

Quoting stylo777 (Reply 15):
Quoting ankaraflyjet (Reply 2):
Quoting ankaraflyjet (Reply 14):

Those flights are usually operated during summer. The last flight goes from IST and instead of an overnight in Europe they squeeze in additional rotations to Anatolia.

I've to correct my position, those flights indeed seem to be solely operated by aircraft based in ESB since they don't fit into any IST-xxx-IST rotation.

Quoting ankaraflyjet (Reply 2):
According to TK reservation system TK will offer following non stop service to/from ESB

Amsterdam (Thrice weekly)
Brussels (Thrice weekly)
Cologne/Bonn (Thrice weekly)
Dusseldorf (Five weekly)
Moscow (Daily)
Stockholm (Thrice weekly)
Teheran (Five weekly)
Vienna (Four weekly)

TK already started to operate the following routes ex ESB since 2 months and these also remain
Baghdad (3 weekly)
Stuttgart (2 weekly)

in that case we can also add FRA, HAM, TXL to that list. Some additional night rotations during summer.
 
robcol99
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:55 am

Quoting ISTGRU (Reply 17):

On a lighter note, I noticed on a round trip last week that the TK inflight safety video has been edited to remove the ManU players - except at the end where they still do a scene with the captain's hat. Good call in my view, that was becoming quite grating!

They also edited the background music a little. It is shorter and better now.

The new IST arrival-departure pattern came into effect as of 1230 PM yesterday. If the southwest winds do not exceed a tail component of 8 knts, now the arrivals are at 23 and departures are still at 35. They have played with the SID altitudes to adjust for this change.
They have also published IST aircraft ground traffic patterns to minimize ground-aircraft comm. exchange.

Now, (10AM local 2/06), IST is operating with this config.
 
TurkishWings
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:55 am

Quoting TK787 (Reply 13):
http://www.airkule.com/default.asp?page=haber&id=11839
TK to Maldives this year, I guess knowing that TK wanted to fly to 35 African destinations by next year, this was expected.

Maldives is in Asia  

I think a 2-3 weekly would work perfectly. Europeans currently either have to fly charter airlines or Gulf carriers.. Oh and the mighty BA of course  
Coffee - Tea or Me?
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:54 am

Could this be the design of the terminal for the new airport? Certainly looks cool... (left bottom corner)

See: http://www.sabah.com.tr/ExternalImag...06/02/IcerikResim/858766664976.jpg

The related article mentions that the new airport will be part of larger development that includes marinas and techno parks etc. and will have access to metro/rail links.

Article: http://www.sabah.com.tr/Yasam/2012/06/02/iste-yeni-istanbul (Turkish)
 
JU068
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:24 am

What aicraft would they use to Maldives? Would they send their B737-900s or would they need to send something bigger like an A330?


Does anyone know what aircraft Turkish Airlines might base in Ankara? Would see Airbuses or Boeings?

What is the possibility of developing Ankara and Istanbul into the same model Lufthansa has with Munich and Frankfurt?
 
JU068
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:26 am

Quoting tcm (Reply 21):
Could this be the design of the terminal for the new airport? Certainly looks cool... (left bottom corner)

See: http://www.sabah.com.tr/ExternalImag...06/02/IcerikResim/858766664976.jpg

The related article mentions that the new airport will be part of larger development that includes marinas and techno parks etc. and will have access to metro/rail links.

I love the picture of the Tu-154!  The design looks cool but how far would this airport be from the city?
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:40 am

Quoting ju068,reply=23I love the picture of the Tu-154!  The design looks cool but how far would this airport be from the city?:

Yenikoy (on the Black Sea Coast) is about 50 km to Levent (Financial Center) and about 55-60 km to Taksim.
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:16 am

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 20):
Maldives is in Asia

Thanks, my fault; I think I mixed it up with the Seychelles.

Quoting robcol99 (Reply 19):
If the southwest winds do not exceed a tail component of 8 knts, now the arrivals are at 23 and departures are still at 35.

What happens when the wind is from the SW?

Quoting tcm (Reply 21):
Could this be the design of the terminal for the new airport? Certainly looks cool... (left bottom corner)

Cool design, seems in line with other airport projects,
but this article sounds like it was written in the 60's for a world's fair;
-to build the world's largest airport with 100M pax capacity
-the Olympic village for the 2020 Olympics, (yet another one, by the way 8 years away)
-cruise port to double incoming tourist numbers to 22M.
-the land now being used as mines and such will be re-purposed for a ecological new city called "yenisehir" ( new york)
-Led by an US based architect figured this out in 5 months.
 
bahadir
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:32 am

Quoting TK787 (Reply 25):
Cool design, seems in line with other airport projects,
but this article sounds like it was written in the 60's for a world's fair;
-to build the world's largest airport with 100M pax capacity
-the Olympic village for the 2020 Olympics, (yet another one, by the way 8 years away)
-cruise port to double incoming tourist numbers to 22M.
-the land now being used as mines and such will be re-purposed for a ecological new city called "yenisehir" ( new york)
-Led by an US based architect figured this out in 5 months.

These areas are the only few places that are left intact nature wise around Istanbul. With the 3rd Bosphorus bridge and the idea of Yenikoy, welcome to the genocide of thousands of acres of green areas.

On a different note, I am not taking Turkish this summer to Turkey. It will be either DL or US through Athens. I am also hoping to take part on the new UAL service..
Earthbound misfit I
 
TurkishWings
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:40 am

Quoting ju068 (Reply 22):
What aicraft would they use to Maldives? Would they send their B737-900s or would they need to send something bigger like an A330?

It's outside the range of a 737-900ER. I guess it would be a twice weekly 330 destination (lucky for the crew). Alternatively, with a one stop through a Gulf region airport. Then a 900ER would be fine...
Coffee - Tea or Me?
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:08 am

Quoting TK787 (Reply 25):

“A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.”

Winston Churchill

 
 
gokmengs
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:56 pm

I feel like IST can be salvaged and maximized for less money, instead of ruining the other side of istanbul. Even silivri is a better idea. Most Euro major airports are miles from city center, istanbul is so vast that it has different city centers depending on where you live.
Take air force property in yesilkoy, istimlak to marmara side and fill in. Look how much room there is to grow!
Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
 
radiopolitic
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting tcm (Reply 21):

This is very similar to a University of Michigan project that I found after NuD38 posted these photos in the January thread:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=138647&filename=phpp7ncvI.png

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=138647&filename=phpS6lXZC.png

Here is the project: http://www.caup.umich.edu/pdfs/workfolios/turkey_f07.pptx

Quoting bahadir (Reply 26):
These areas are the only few places that are left intact nature wise around Istanbul. With the 3rd Bosphorus bridge and the idea of Yenikoy, welcome to the genocide of thousands of acres of green areas.

Yup.

I love how the government doesn't care about the warnings regarding the ecological disaster that will ensue with the path they seem to be taking. Not surprising in the least though. When was the last time there was decent urban planning in Turkey? When the Russians occupied Kars?

It will be a nightmare if plans like this go through.

Interesting movie about Istanbul called Ekumenopolis, regarding urban planning and the environment, came out recently. Here's the link to an extended trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAAX5qry9Ho
 
ThereandBack
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting tcm (Reply 21):

Could this be the design of the terminal for the new airport? Certainly looks cool... (left bottom corner)

See: http://www.sabah.com.tr/ExternalImag...6.jpg

It's funny how they're trying to greenwash this and say it's eco friendly. The third highway / bridge and then building this in the middle of the forest will be a disaster for the city. The government is really ran by idiots, they keep building all these communities on empty land when there are so many poorly built areas to demolish that would stop the city from expanding unsustainably. Istanbul needs clean air and clean water and destroying the northern forests will kill the city eventually.

Another subway tunnel under the Bosporus would be cheaper than the third bridge and would move more people through the city, but no, they want more people in cars, they want to destroy the forests to make room for more TOKI houses and luxury villas.

Also at IST they do not set the air condition to a comfortable temperature on hotter days. That new terminal render looks to be a glass roof. I'd hate to think how hot it would be in that during a busy summer day if they did the same thing with the AC in the new airport.
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting thereandback (Reply 31):
The government is really ran by idiots, they keep building all these communities on empty land when there are so many poorly built areas to demolish that would stop the city from expanding unsustainably. Istanbul needs clean air and clean water and destroying the northern forests will kill the city eventually.

The "idiots" who run the government are the same people that are responsible for the great infrastructure you rave about in your latest trip report; which I enjoyed reading:

Quoting thereandback,reply=31What impressed me the most is the new infrastructure in Turkey. The new BJV international terminal looked amazing and so are the terminals in AYT, ESB, ADB, DLM, and the new Adana-Mersin airport looks great. They have built many other smaller terminals in Anatolia that are ultra modern too. A new IST will come eventually, but the Turkish people are lucky to have so many nice new airport terminals where so many airports in the US are drab and in need of a renovation. :

your own words...

My understanding is that one of the reasons for developing the city to the north is the earthquake risk. The claims that these new projects will destroy the forests is premature. Also, AFAIK, there are plans to create green zones in the city through the urban regeneration plans.

BTW, Sidney Rasekh of Urban Green was involved in the much acclaimed Vancouver Plan and is heading this project (you can see his bio here: http://ist-mer.khas.edu.tr/duyurular-10.html)

I will not join the lyching until I see the actual plans. I humbly believe that Istanbul deserves a new hub and sincerely hope it will be eco-friendly  

[Edited 2012-06-02 12:06:20]
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:36 pm

Quoting tcm (Reply 32):
The "idiots" who run the government are the same people that are responsible for the great infrastructure you rave about in your latest trip report; which I enjoyed reading:

Building infrastructure with borrowed money is not such a big thing. This terminals will get build, either today or tomorrow. What really matters is not destroying things which cannot be revoked. And this is exactly what is happening with building the 3rd bridge and raods in the last forrest of Istanbul. But this is exactly what can be expected by people with the mindset of building skyscrapers to Haydarpasa, directly in front of the historical part of Istanbul. Preserving is a much bigger success than building.
 
tk1244
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:45 pm

Quoting ankaraflyjet (Reply 2):
It seems AnadoluJet is down to domestic operations only.

that is how I should have expanded AnadoluJet, connecting every Turkish airport with each other. Not only the biggest cities like Ankara, Istanbul and Izmir, but also from smaller airports like Kocaeli-Trabzon or Gaziantep-Denizli (depending on demand). B737/A319 for the bigger routes, regional jets (E-Jets?) and/or turboprops (ATR/Q400?) for the smaller ones.

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 4):

This I think is in line with the decision of closing AnadoluJet and transferring domestic operations to SunExpress... I seem to remember such a discussion a while back...

AnadoluJet will remain there, it will only operate with SunExpress aircraft and crew (all current AJA a/c will be transferred to SunExpress)

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
The idea of a regional jet looks is back on the plate @ TK.
COO TK COO Abdullah Soner Akkurt was quoted at an airline conference that such model would help on thin markets, and for example open up new secondary markets in Europe for TK.

Turkish Airlines is too late with such a model, they had to introduce one many years ago.

Quoting thereandback (Reply 31):
Another subway tunnel under the Bosporus would be cheaper than the third bridge and would move more people through the city, but no, they want more people in cars, they want to destroy the forests to make room for more TOKI houses and luxury villas.

Wasn't it because the previous governments preferred to expand 'highways' instead of air and railways? THY and TCDD could have been much bigger and efficient if they didn't abandoned the ideas of air and railways. Even with so many traffic jams and car accidents, the government keep expanding the road network...
"The future is in the skies. For any nation that cannot defend its skies will never be confident of its future." Atatürk
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:00 pm

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 33):
Building infrastructure with borrowed money is not such a big thing. This terminals will get build, either today or tomorrow. What really matters is not destroying things which cannot be revoked. And this is exactly what is happening with building the 3rd bridge and raods in the last forrest of Istanbul. But this is exactly what can be expected by people with the mindset of building skyscrapers to Haydarpasa, directly in front of the historical part of Istanbul. Preserving is a much bigger success than building.

Guys, I understand and respect your point of view and I really don't want to venture in to politics. I believe that the urban regeneration, the 3rd bridge, a new airport/hub and extending the rail/metro network will increase the quality of life in Istanbul. I also believe that this can be done in a environmentally friendly fashion. I am for preservation and progress. I will join in your criticism if the plans point to the contrary. I will wait and see; just like with the TK management  
 
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fxramper
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:10 pm

How will the new UA service from EWR affect TK out of JFK?   
 
ThereandBack
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:43 pm

Quoting tcm (Reply 32):
The claims that these new projects will destroy the forests is premature.

Look at Istanbul before the 1st bridge and 2nd bridges. With each bridge there was less forest and the city expanded farther away from the center. Traffic didn't get better because Istanbul doesn't have good arterial roads so everyone clogs the highways. Development follows roads so if they build the third ring road and bridge sooner or later the forest will turn into another Atasehir. Also, building new roads doesn't fix the traffic problem, take a look at Korea where they demolish urban freeways and found that traffic improved. They say the new bridge will be a bypass and for trucks but I feel like it the money would be better spent elsewhere and it will hurt the environment.


Since that tunnel is being planned it really makes the third bridge irrelevant in my opinion. This connects the two sides where people actually live and work, not in the middle of a forest.

Quoting tcm (Reply 32):
The "idiots" who run the government are the same people that are responsible for the great infrastructure you rave about in your latest trip report; which I enjoyed reading:

There is a difference between destroying open green space that cleans the air and protects the areas around the water reservoirs and cleans the rain water runoff in the name of "infrastructure development" compared to building those terminals which didn't destroy anything and were much needed. There is plenty of space in western Istanbul for a new airport and the current IST can also be rearranged to accommodate more traffic. Doing that would be a lot wiser than developing the north.

Quoting tcm (Reply 32):
My understanding is that one of the reasons for developing the city to the north is the earthquake risk.

If earthquake safety is such a concern why aren't they doing anything about the all of the poorly constructed housing pretty much between the airport stretching all the way up to Levent? When you build something right it doesn't as much where you build it. I still think Silivri is more appropriate. If they're building high speed rail to Edirne anyway there could be a shuttle train from Yenikapi and people could get there quickly. If you still think a third airport and a third bridge along with transit improvements will increase the quality of life in Istanbul you should probably read this report: http://www.iiasa.ac.at/Research/RAV/conf/IDRiM06/pres/elgin.pdf
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:48 pm

Quoting thereandback (Reply 31):
Another subway tunnel under the Bosporus would be cheaper than the third bridge and would move more people through the city, but no, they want more people in cars, they want to destroy the forests to make room for more TOKI houses and luxury villas.

From someone that has done studies on the 3rd bridge that I know - one of the big reasons behind it is, to get traffic away from the city. There is a huge volume of traffic, especially trucks that flow between Europe and Anatolia, and a 3rd bridge further away from the city when fully connected to highways would allow them to bypass the central city.

Hopefully once the 3rd bridge is one the way, they can look at the 4th one up by Rumeli that would help create the long considered Black Sea highway as well and further help with bypass traffic away from Istanbul proper.

Quoting tcm (Reply 32):
The "idiots" who run the government are the same people that are responsible for the great infrastructure you rave about in your latest trip report; which I enjoyed reading:

  

And those "idiots" single handily thanks to things like eliminating domestic ticket taxes, liberalizing regulations and economy have created the massive boon for airlines in Turkey.
If not for many of these far sighted actions, the life of THY, the remainder of the sector, and the Turkish consumer would be very different today.

Quoting TK1244 (Reply 34):
Turkish Airlines is too late with such a model, they had to introduce one many years ago.

Yes could have been introduced many years ago, but there were various downsides (which we discussed at the time) at the time which precluded them.

Now with the network having grown so much, the ability to fill in the smaller holes with along with creating new IST bypass markets, the time might be right for large RJs.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
radiopolitic
Posts: 104
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:13 pm

Quoting tcm (Reply 32):
Sidney Rasekh of Urban Green

I don't know who this guy is. I find it suspicious that Google searches of his name and Urban Green (do they even have a website? Couldn't find one.) result in lots of Turkish links but not much in English. He exists but I don't think he's anywhere near as well known as the Turkish press is making him out to be.

Quoting thereandback (Reply 37):
Look at Istanbul before the 1st bridge and 2nd bridges. With each bridge there was less forest and the city expanded farther away from the center. Traffic didn't get better because Istanbul doesn't have good arterial roads so everyone clogs the highways. Development follows roads so if they build the third ring road and bridge sooner or later the forest will turn into another Atasehir.

Yup. When the second bridge was built there were promises that there wouldn't be an exit on either side for 45km - that it would just be through-fare. Fast forward and we see what has happened.

Quoting thereandback (Reply 37):
Doing that would be a lot wiser than developing the north.



Truth.
 
radiopolitic
Posts: 104
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:17 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 38):
4th one up by Rumeli

Don't even start on a 4th before the 3rd is built. Say goodbye to any semblance of clean air.
 
ThereandBack
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 38):
Hopefully once the 3rd bridge is one the way, they can look at the 4th one up by Rumeli that would help create the long considered Black Sea highway as well and further help with bypass traffic away from Istanbul proper.

????????????????

4th one up by Rumeli? Are you aware that the third bridge will be from Garipçe to Poyrazköy? That's right by Rumelifeneri... What's the point of two bridges so close to eachother? In that case they should just pave over the Bosphorus maybe that will solve the traffic problem. Clearly you didn't read my post because building a bypass for trucks away from the city center won't work. Traffic will eventually clog those roads as development takes place after the construction and then they will be faced with the same problem they started with.         
 
LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting radiopolitic (Reply 40):
Say goodbye to any semblance of clean air.

Much of the clean air is a problem of the types of gasolines used, lack of emmision controls, and industry still inside the city, not simply due to fact that there are cars.

Moving roadway away from the city center should actually help as it would hopefully bring less people into the heart.

Quoting thereandback (Reply 41):
Are you aware that the third bridge will be from Garipçe to Poyrazköy?

My understanding was that the road connections to the 3rd bridge will be from Sariyer on the European side, and not from the north in Rumeli. Hence the concept for a transit Black Sea bridge to the North still remains.

Quoting thereandback (Reply 41):
Clearly you didn't read my post because building a bypass for trucks away from the city center won't work.

Sure it will - there is plenty of TRANSIT traffic (all those TIR treaty trucks) that have zero need to be Istanbul and simply want to continue through.

Also the Turkish government has long had (since 1960s) the aspiration of a proper Black Sea highway running from the Bulgarian border, to Georgia, and a bypass bridge at Rumeli was to be part of that.


Quoting thereandback (Reply 41):
Traffic will eventually clog those roads as development takes place after the construction and then they will be faced with the same problem they started with.

Development and growth will take place regardless. Turkey is a growing country, and Istanbul is the commercial and population heart.

Not building stuff will only make it worse for what exist. Before things get even fuller in the future, you keep building more and more today. For example here in Los Angeles, we build new freeways, expand current ones from 5 to 8 lanes, etc. Keeping up with the demand. (and ironically our air quality keeps getting better decade by decade, regardless of more people or cars!)



And since this is an aviation discussion, let me connect the lack of roadways in Istanbul with holding back aviation growth. For example SAW has long had the concept of becoming a proper freighter airport (was involved with this personally going back to the mid 1990 when SAW was empty basically). But the biggest hurdle is that virtually the entire freight forwarder community is on the European side, and the inability to conveniently move stuff back and forth by road makes them extremely reluctant to use SAW as the gateway. Not only do they lose time in transit, it cost them more money as a result.

Having better and more links across the Bosphorus is a big macro economic argument for Turkey that hopefully with spread out the current choke-points and continue to stimulate further economic activity.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
tcm
Posts: 304
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting radiopolitic (Reply 39):
I don't know who this guy is. I find it suspicious that Google searches of his name and Urban Green (do they even have a website? Couldn't find one.) result in lots of Turkish links but not much in English. He exists but I don't think he's anywhere near as well known as the Turkish press is making him out to be.

Link: http://www.urbangreen.net/index.html
 
radiopolitic
Posts: 104
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:18 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 42):
Much of the clean air is a problem of the types of gasolines used, lack of emmision controls, and industry still inside the city, not simply due to fact that there are cars.

My comment was in regards to the fact that there will be zero green space in Istanbul once you build a 3rd bridge, never mind a 4th.

No trees, no carbon sequestration or carbon sink. No clean air.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 42):
Development and growth will take place regardless. Turkey is a growing country, and Istanbul is the commercial and population heart.

True. No one is saying don't develop. But develop wisely. Do it with care and proper planning. Don't do things that will irreplaceably damage the environment. AKP ran on a campaign to build a 'new Istanbul' and 6 new airports for Istanbul which is plain foolish.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 42):
Having better and more links across the Bosphorus is a big macro economic argument for Turkey that hopefully with spread out the current choke-points and continue to stimulate further economic activity.

We agree conceptually but disagree on the end result of how to achieve this.

Quoting tcm (Reply 43):
Link: http://www.urbangreen.net/index.html

Thanks for that. Weird how it didn't come up when I searched for it. Anyway, having given this a brief look all I can say is good luck. Website isn't very convincing. I eagerly await plans.
 
tk1244
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 12:50 am

RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:00 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 38):
Yes could have been introduced many years ago, but there were various downsides (which we discussed at the time) at the time which precluded them.

Can you maybe remember which year it was? I like to read more about it  

thank you in advance  
"The future is in the skies. For any nation that cannot defend its skies will never be confident of its future." Atatürk
 
Turkish350XWB
Posts: 463
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:34 am

Quoting tcm (Reply 35):
I will wait and see

If we look to the past of the mankind, we can clearly see that many mistakes happened because people just waited. I don't want to attack you personally at all, but i do not trust this government at all and i think it is frivolous to just let them do whatever they want. The bill to this, the next generations will have to pay, even if in short term our quality of life may benefit. If it will benefit is the other questionmark...

Quoting thereandback (Reply 37):
Look at Istanbul before the 1st bridge and 2nd bridges. With each bridge there was less forest and the city expanded farther away from the center.

  

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 38):
Hopefully once the 3rd bridge is one the way, they can look at the 4th one

The best joice would be covering the Bosphorus completely with concrete and making it a underground channel. This would solve all problems.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 42):

Much of the clean air is a problem of the types of gasolines used, lack of emmision controls, and industry still inside the city, not simply due to fact that there are cars.

We are talking about the destruction of forrests and the lungs of Istanbul. That cars pollute the air is nothing new.

Quoting radiopolitic (Reply 44):
My comment was in regards to the fact that there will be zero green space in Istanbul once you build a 3rd bridge, never mind a 4th.

  

Buillding and growing doesnot automatically mean deploying. This is a very big project and needs dialogue between the parties as this will highly affect everyone of us. Sometimes i have the impressions that planning is done very sloppily, and when there come elections, ideas are being collected in a big hurry (and this has not been happening only in the past 10 years), no matter if they make sense or not. Also stil have not understood Kanal Istanbul project. This is not part of our discussion here, but if sb. proposes such a nonsense thing, my alarm is ringing and i get very suspicious.
 
northstar80
Posts: 194
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:35 pm

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 46):
The best joice would be covering the Bosphorus completely with concrete and making it a underground channel. This would solve all problems.

     

Completely agreed, without building proper underground rail infrastructure we will be building the 100th bridge and still complaining about traffic  

Additionally, the argument regarding having a separate bridge for transit trucks is not only illogical but also useless as transit trucks constitute a tiny amount of the actual bridge crossing traffic. During rush hours both bridges have almost stopping traffic, where as the transit truck traffic is not permitted on both bridges. So, even without the transit truck traffic you have heavy traffic, thus an argument based on building a new bridge&highway and moving transit traffic there is not based on facts, and is unfounded.
 
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TK787
Topic Author
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:55 pm

Nice to see this healthy debate on transportation issues here,
I started to type something, it got too long, I decided to stick to what I know;

TK announced a 3 x weekly SAW-Kiev route starting 19June with 738.
http://airlineroute.net/2012/06/03/tk-sawkbp-jun12/
 
Turkish350XWB
Posts: 463
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RE: Turkish Aviation June 2012

Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:27 pm

Yes, but some posts got deleted as far as i see... Who does that??