planemaker
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CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:18 pm



Article on CNN, Airline squeeze: It's not you, 'it's the seat', presents this survey:

Airline comfort poll

1. What's the biggest improvement airlines could make?

--More legroom: 41%

--More comfortable seating: 30%

--More bin space, free snacks, seat outlets, fewer delays, better entertainment: 29%

2. On flights over 4 hours, would you pay $25 for more legroom?

--Yes: 35%

3. On domestic flights under 4 hours, would you pay for more legroom?

--No: 71%

Quote:
(CNN) -- If your coach airline seat is uncomfortable, it's your fault.

That's the gist of one of hundreds of responses to a CNN.com report about airline seat comfort, configuration and cost.

Coach fliers may complain about airline seats, but U.S. airlines are filling those seats pretty successfully. A commenter called withReason7 suggests that consumers are getting what they ask for.

"I will continue to blame the passengers that will sit in any crappy seat as long as it's a little bit cheaper. THAT IS WHY THE AIRLINES ARE DOING THIS. Not because they are mean, because that is what MOST travelers want..."

The Traveler's Psyche is a CNN five-week series focusing on travel scenarios that stir emotion. We're starting with frustration and will wind up on a happy note in June. This week, we'll take a closer look at air rage, the TSA and relationship travel.
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aircanadaa330
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CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:20 pm

makes sense....after all we are our own worst enemy...
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ikramerica
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CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:23 pm

Yep, and that's why Y+ seating only takes up like 20% of the cabin.
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planemaker
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CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:29 pm

Another oft A.net debated topic is discussed in this CNN article The golden days of air travel: How glorious were they?
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AeroWesty
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CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:05 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 2):
Yep, and that's why Y+ seating only takes up like 20% of the cabin.

In the late 1980s I was paying ~$800 for Coach round-trip from the US west coast to Europe. I generally sat in a marginally cushy seat that didn't leave me exhausted after 10-11 hours in the air.

$800 in 1988 is worth $1,455 in 2010 dollars. I'd happily pay a reasonable sum of miles or up to $700-800 more round-trip over today's airfares on the same routes for a REAL Y+ product to Europe such as BA's World Traveller Plus or AF's Premium Voyageur. (Last year I saw PV for ~$1,800 round-trip all-in after an online 10% coupon from AF, while plain Coach was ~$1,200.)

For Economy Plus on UA or Economy Comfort on DL, I'd value the extra legroom at about $100-150 each way to Europe or Asia. OTOH, I wouldn't book on AA at all if the risk was there to be placed in a row with 10 seats across without add'l legroom on the 777 due to a flight disruption of some kind after buying MCE.

While checking in a bag on a UA flight a couple of years ago, I asked the agent if there were any better seats available than what I'd been assigned. His reply was, "yes, but you'd have to pay extra," in a manner that suggested I wouldn't want to for the DEN-PDX flight, rather than stopping to look up the price to give me that option. Nowadays, I'd bet the same agent would have tried to sell me the upgrade, or it or a TOD offer would have come through a kiosk check-in or e-mail prior to the flight.
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727LOVER
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CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:12 pm

Based on uniforms, seats, etc.can someone tell me the airlines in the above pics?
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skycub
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CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:13 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 5):
Based on uniforms, seats, etc.can someone tell me the airlines in the above pics?

Southwest.
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phatfarmlines
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CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 5):
Based on uniforms, seats, etc.can someone tell me the airlines in the above pics?

I think the 1st picture can be re-asked as: "Based on uniforms, seats, sleeveless man, business lady leaning away from sleeveless man, etc. can someone tell me the airlines in the above pics?" That pic brought a a good laugh to me.
 
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CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:24 pm

Quoting AirCanadaA330 (Reply 1):
makes sense....after all we are our own worst enemy...

With the help of internet enabled price transparency...

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
I'd happily pay a reasonable sum of miles or up to $700-800 more round-trip over today's airfares on the same routes for a REAL Y+ product to Europe such as BA's World Traveller Plus or AF's Premium Voyageur.

The issue is how small the market is for a slight premium econ product. Most people are only willing to pay a *little* more for say a few inches more legroom or they are willing to pay the C/J premium. For US west coast to Europe, a seat that enables sleep is worth quite a bit.

While $7k might seem high, enough of the people willing to pay $1200 are going to consider a few grand more for the comfort. Its not that a better product couldn't be offered, it has to make sense from a yield management perspective.


Quoting ikramerica (Reply 2):
Yep, and that's why Y+ seating only takes up like 20% of the cabin.

But only a certain airlines. My employer will not pay for Y+. It is Y or, for long enough flights J. I've been given free upgrades to Y+ and that was nice, but not nice enough to pay for the little room.

Lightsaber
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LAXintl
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CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:24 pm

Nothing new -

For most consumers Price, Price & Price is what matters the most.


IATA along with other trade organizations have for ages done their own global surveys which mirror the results that for discretionary and leisure travel, pricing is by far the most important purchase factor for consumers.

Also its important to note that the leisure and discretionary travel segment makes up now 80% of all global demand and continues to rise as ever more people take to the skies, so the importance of pricing will only continue to grow over other factors.
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AeroWesty
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:46 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
The issue is how small the market is for a slight premium econ product. Most people are only willing to pay a *little* more for say a few inches more legroom or they are willing to pay the C/J premium. For US west coast to Europe, a seat that enables sleep is worth quite a bit.

For a business traveler, I'd agree with you, even though many companies have Y-only policies, even for long haul. For a leisure traveler, not so much.

BA configures their 744s with 10-11% of the entire plane with WT+, or about 15% of the total WT/WT+ seats combined. If there was no value to BA in that, I doubt if the floor space allocated to the WT+ product would have lasted this long. With more airlines going to a tighter Y cabin in terms of space, the premium for Y+ looks better and better all the time (which might not be a simple coincidence) for those who can afford a bit more, but not 3-4x more for Business.

I also think that passenger mix has a lot to do with it—most likely the reason why airlines such as EK, who carry a lot of the VFR and blue collar foreign worker trade, haven't introduced a true Y+ product.
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CapEd388
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 5):

Yeah its Southwest, I think they are shots from the "Airline" show that they had on A&E a few years ago.

Yeah I agree, with what the article says. If the majority of travelers are demanding low fares, then tight seating configurations is what they will get. Its about people being cheap, as the article said, the majority of people asked would not pay a measly $25 for more legroom on a 4hr+ flight. The airlines would be more than willing to add wider seats and more legroom at a higher price, but who would buy those seats ? No one, because people would think that it is too expensive.

Also as the article mentioned, Americans are getting bigger and bigger. Can the airlines really be blamed, that a lot of their customers are getting bigger and outgrowing their seats?

If more people demand more legroom and pay the upgrade to "Economy Plus" and it becomes a growing trend, the airlines would see that and they would increase the size of their "Economy Plus Class" and before you know it, "Economy" is a thing of the past and the new norm is "Economy Plus". Obviously Im reaching here, but it could happen.

[Edited 2012-06-02 11:59:56]
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lightsaber
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:07 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):
For a business traveler, I'd agree with you, even though many companies have Y-only policies, even for long haul. For a leisure traveler, not so much.

I fear my company will go Y-only soon.   However, at LAX, there is a growing 'silver set' group who will pay for J.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):
I also think that passenger mix has a lot to do with it—most likely the reason why airlines such as EK, who carry a lot of the VFR and blue collar foreign worker trade, haven't introduced a true Y+ product.

I 100% agree. Certain cities will be far more likely to support a Y+. The issue is a wider seat increases the cost 12% or more. More legroom by about 10%. But then, higher fare classes tend towards lower load factors (and are partially filled with upgrades). So the fare increase is greater than the cost increase.

I suspect some airlines also use Y+ to cut the 'free upgrades' from Y.

Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 11):
Its about people being cheap, as the article said, the majority of people asked would not pay a measly $25 for more legroom on a 4hr+ flight.

$25 won't pay for the legroom. Better to put in another row... About 3% more legroom requires a 10% higher fare. With internet search engines, how many people research the details of the seats to verify one airline is worth 10% more than another for leisure seats? For business, I know many who are loyal to an airline for seats and service. There is a reason FF miles are like crack...   Those who are hooked just have to have them.

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vlad1971
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:12 pm

According to survey made by my airline most important for pax :
1) price for the ticket
2) on time arrival to destination
3) Schedules
4) arrival of their baggage on time and undamaged
5) ease to check-in online and get boarding pass via web
6) possibility to collect miles for the future travel and upgrades
7) Leg space
8) meals and drinks ( BOB or free service )
9) entertainment on board
10) use of pre departure or arrival lounge

As you all see leg space , meals and IFE are not that important for the passengers . They just want to fly cheap , on time with their baggage and possibility to choose convenient schedules .
 
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 11):
If more people demand more legroom and pay the upgrade to "Economy Plus" and it becomes a growing trend, the airlines would see that and they would increase the size of their "Economy Plus Class"

For UA's long-haul fleet of 777s, that's exactly what's happened.

IPTE-configured 777s now have a mix of 104 Y+/117 Y, vs. 77 Y+/114 Y on the WW1 configuration and 84 Y+/114 Y on the WW2 configuration.

I'm honestly surprised that DL was so conservative with their initial allocation of Economy Comfort seats on their international fleet. The cabins range from a low of 30 on some planes to a high of 42 of the 744s, according to seatguru.
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting phatfarmlines (Reply 7):

Its funny you say that. See, that lady in the next row in the middle seat is smiling because her row is full, so the guy can,t sit next to her. But the lady in the foreground is distressed looking because she,s got an empty seat next to her! 
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:32 pm

The headline of this thread is like "Water is wet."

And we treat it as regrettable here on A.net. But I'm one of these travelers! Up to a point -- and that point is almost exactly where AA's new 777 coach seats are coming out -- I'm happy to endure cramped conditions for a few hours if I can get a cheaper ticket. I have better things to spend my money on than a few extra inches that won't matter at all in the long run.
 
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:32 pm

I think there is a reluctance to pay for upgrades after booking because there's a feeling like you're getting fleeced-- would any of those other airlines that matched the same fare have offered better comfort for free, or less? If the booking engines like kayak and expedia could make it clearer where you get a few inches more legroom and IFE and for exactly how much, some more people might take advantage at booking. "Oh, sure, I'll pay $50 for a seat farther up with more legroom versus a middle seat, that might be reasonable, but let me compare that to some other airlines. Maybe I can get it for $20..." Once booked though, it's more along the lines, of "no, I paid for the ticket, and that's it. They want *more* money for me to escape that middle seat? Screw 'em."
 
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:45 pm

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 13):
7) Leg space

If your airline is KLM, I'd be fairly shocked by this ranking, with the Dutch being the tallest population on Earth. 2" taller on average than Americans nowadays, the former record-holder.
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vlad1971
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
If your airline is KLM, I'd be fairly shocked by this ranking, with the Dutch being the tallest population on Earth. 2" taller on average than Americans nowadays, the former record-holder

No, my airline is not an European carrier  
 
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:22 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):

I suspect some airlines also use Y+ to cut the 'free upgrades' from Y

...and many more to come! I suspect Y+ will take up some of the current J floor space on some airlines. The smaller J cabins with have a greater likelihood of being occupied by paying passengers. As someone mentioned,the internet created transparency in fares to allow consumers the ability to shop for the lowest fares where the purchase decision was sometimes decided by saving as few as $3 - $5. If one accepts that a seat is nothing more than a commodity,then it helps explain how we got to where we are today. Gone are the days when air travel seemed special and we wore our nicest clothes.
 
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:25 pm

Being someone of below-average height, my 5'6" frame (that's 1.67m for you metric folks) will easily fit into the smallest seat pitch in the sky. So, no, I will not pay extra for 2" of legroom I don't need.   
 
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:34 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 20):
If one accepts that a seat is nothing more than a commodity,then it helps explain how we got to where we are today. Gone are the days when air travel seemed special and we wore our nicest clothes.

Bottom line for North Americans: deregulation happened. LONG GONE are the "Glory Days". People have to make the realization that yesterdays busses are todays airliners, period.
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crAAzy
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:45 pm

Nothing new here, and I personally see nothing wrong with this trend as long as airlines still provide a choice for people that want to travel with a higher class, more leg room, have a bigger seat, or have more amenities.

Heck they can squeeze 8 seats across in coach on a 737 as far as I'm concerned and hand out an ice cubes on a napikin for the people that want to pay less than what it actually takes to cover the costs of the flight. At the same time, you better make the experience worth the extra cost for those who are willing to pay for the better experience.

Now I certainly understand that some airlines choose not to do this (e.g. WN), some airlines choose to do a modified version of this (e.g. DL), and some airlines are still trying to keep a complete menu of options for their customers with F,J,Y+, and Y (e.g. UA. AA). Whether they can do it successfully is another question; however, as F cabins continue to shrink and become more exclusive - so should the level of service and amenities increase as well as the customer experience.
 
9252fly
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:47 pm

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 22):
Bottom line for North Americans: deregulation happened.

Forgot that's where is started. It's not all bad though,considering more of us can afford to travel by air. Problem is that it's gotten too much like riding a bus. I remember traveling across the country on a Greyhound bus in my younger years and recall some of the unsavory types one would meet,guess how they travel today?
 
LAXDESI
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:56 pm

A 3 inch increase in legroom from 31"(Y) to 34"(Y+) takes up about 10% more cabin space(United 772 as per Seatguru). A 6 inch increase in legroom from Y to Y+, along with one less seat per row, takes up about 29% more space(Thai A345 as per Seatguru).

I for one would rather spend the money on a better hotel room and meal at destination than for the extra comfort in the air. On my VFR trips to MAA, I have taken 2-stop trips over 1-stop trip and invested the savings in a 2-3 day sightseeing trip at an intermediate stop.
 
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:10 pm

Btw - I don't believe calling passengers "Too Cheap" is right.

Instead its simply the fact that people rightfully places a value on a product or service. Clearly many don't have the perception that the added space is good value and trumps the lower price.

Similar to how, I would not call the consumer "too cheap" since McDonald's, Subway and Starbucks happen to be the largest eating establishments Americas - they simply provide good value for what they do in the eyes of many consumers.
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turn720
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:01 pm

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 22):
Bottom line for North Americans: deregulation happened. LONG GONE are the "Glory Days".

I'm old enough to remember the glory days of pre-deregulation. Back then the if the average American wanted to travel they hopped on a Greyhound bus. Remember those?
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 24):
Forgot that's where is started. It's not all bad though,considering more of us can afford to travel by air. Problem is that it's gotten too much like riding a bus. I remember traveling across the country on a Greyhound bus in my younger years and recall some of the unsavory types one would meet,guess how they travel today?

Greyhound is usually more expensive than airfare lately.
 
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:13 pm

Quoting planemaker (Thread starter):
2. On flights over 4 hours, would you pay $25 for more legroom?

--Yes: 35%

Count me in the 35%

Quoting planemaker (Thread starter):
3. On domestic flights under 4 hours, would you pay for more legroom?

--No: 71%

...and in the 29%

I'm glad I now have a choice. Many don't want it (but then complain about lack of room??) but some do and I'm glad airlines are now recognizing there is a group that can afford a little more than Y but that J is generally out of reach.
 
spacecadet
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:13 pm

The flipside to this thread is that a sizable percentage of people *will* pay extra for comfort. 35% is more than 1/3 of all passengers. Yet there are not a proportionate number of comfortable seats on most planes - I am one of that 35% and on most flights I *cannot* pay extra for more legroom. So there is a market that is not being tapped. I am actually a little surprised by how many people will pay extra, especially after all the threads here (including this one!) that suggest "no one" will pay extra for more legroom. Apparently, more than 1/3 of us would!

This is thankfully changing a *little* bit with airlines like JetBlue and now Delta with Economy Comfort. I'm about to book a trip to San Francisco and Portland (from JFK) and suddenly I now have an option other than JetBlue this summer. I won't fly a carrier that doesn't offer extra legroom for a reasonable fee.
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m404
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:37 pm

I dislike the word cheap. America and the rest of the world has had to learn to live with reduced expectations for so many reasons. News stories keep saying we are "feeling better" about the economy (if talking to the employed I'd guess). On the contrary. It has NOT improved. We are simply adapting to lower expectations and to allow it to happen carriers are selling at non-profitable prices and having to artificially limit seats to assure full planes while depending on ancilliary fees to make it work. Eating is the biggest re-assurance that "things are all right" that we do. Reality is seeing the folly of that in health costs.

The only way it could be changed is if fares are controlled to assure a "proper" return on investment. Along with the yew and cry for lower fares that would ensue who would believe the government controllers and who would agree to taxes for that departments creation?

I'd like to see a thread started on what passengers from both sides of the curtain would do to make it work and still be comfortible, economical, yet fulfill what seems to be the mandate for mass transportation that deregulation was supposed to inspire. Remember that most mass transit systems are very heavily tax supported when you give an answer.

I'll start that thread now with the above wording.
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 30):
This is thankfully changing a *little* bit with airlines like JetBlue and now Delta with Economy Comfort. I'm about to book a trip to San Francisco and Portland (from JFK) and suddenly I now have an option other than JetBlue this summer. I won't fly a carrier that doesn't offer extra legroom for a reasonable fee.

My position entirely, comfort, not luxury. I still suspect that many airlines want Y to be enough torture to move those who can afford it to an expensive higher class.
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anplatinum
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:42 pm

I recently had to travel for 6 hours on a long distance bus to a town that had no air service. The bus seats were far worse than Y class on any airline. The pitch between seats was such that I could only fit my 191cm frame in sideways - thankfully there was a vacant seat alongside me. The seats were hard vinyl and cabin services were zero. Furthermore, the cost was about what a Y class fare would be for the same distance. The only saving grace was that the bus stopped every two hours for a driver rest at which time passengers could stretch their legs outside - a bit difficult for airlines to organise.

I don't see any bus companies offering J class seats.
 
9252fly
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:58 pm

Quoting ANPlatinum (Reply 33):
I don't see any bus companies offering J class seats

They do have them in South America. Stewards to tuck you into seats that rival J with a blanket/pillow,serve you a meal/drink,turn on the entertainment system,etc,.
 
PHX787
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:05 pm

For me personally, I've set a particular budget and restraint on when I will use Y+ or when I'll stay in Y.

1) If the flight is longer than 8 hours. (international- i find it easy to sleep in DL's seats)
2) if the flight is less than $500 and there is no chance of me getting upgraded to F (Usually, the upgrade happens on my CVG-PHX or MSP/MEM/ATL-PHX route)
3) If the flight is less than $500 and longer than 4 hours (cross-country flight)
Otherwise, I'm just fine with Y and the occasional upgrade the F.

[Edited 2012-06-02 16:07:28]
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spacecadet
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:17 pm

Quoting ANPlatinum (Reply 33):
I recently had to travel for 6 hours on a long distance bus to a town that had no air service. The bus seats were far worse than Y class on any airline. The pitch between seats was such that I could only fit my 191cm frame in sideways - thankfully there was a vacant seat alongside me. The seats were hard vinyl and cabin services were zero.

And now you know why it's considered an insult when people say "flying these days is like taking a bus"  

I see you're from Australia so this might not apply to you, but try taking a long distance and/or high speed train instead. (Actually, I'm pretty sure LD trains in Australia are pretty good, although probably about as small in number as in America.) The economics of train travel are a bit different - there's not quite as much pressure to just cram people in like sardines.

In countries where trains are actually widely available, they compete very well with airlines. And comfort is a big reason why. (The fares aren't usually much different.)
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cpd
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:12 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 36):
but try taking a long distance and/or high speed train instead.

The schedules are terrible, the 'high speed' train goes faster in the metro area than in the country (rubbish tracks in the country areas - which might have changed now). And the high speed train is a relic from the 1970s in Britain.

So it's crammed in to economy class for most (hopefully on a jet), or more likely - everyone drives in their cars instead (faster than the train).

[Edited 2012-06-02 17:13:49]
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18846
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:30 am

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 34):
Quoting ANPlatinum (Reply 33):
I don't see any bus companies offering J class seats

They do have them in South America. Stewards to tuck you into seats that rival J with a blanket/pillow,serve you a meal/drink,turn on the entertainment system,etc,.

Red Arrow, a Canadian bus company operating between Calgary and Edmonton and other points in Alberta does offer what is comparable to airline business class service, including spacious 3-abreast (2-1) seating and complimentary drinks, snacks etc. (Go to the "Experience" link and click "Overview" for details/photos...can't link to that page directly).
http://redarrow.ca/

Not quite business class, but at least more legroom and power outlets etc., now offered by Greyhound between YYC and YEG and a few other points in Alberta (previously introduced in certain U.S.markets).
http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/8693...reyhound-express-service-to-canada
http://www.greyhound.ca/en/buses/default.aspx
 
fiscal
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:32 am

The CNN survey never asked me.....

I for one would pay extra for additional space, but some airlines like QF, and to a lesser degree BA, do take advantage of that desire and ask much more for a Y+ seat than it's true value based on additional space taken over a Y seat.

The reason they do it, is to avoid losing corporate dollars. They would rather keep the premium profits made from business class than see those dollars drift away to cheaper Y+ seats. So, they overprice Y+.

After running out of FF points and spending too much on travel the year before, I was forced to travel from Perth to London in economy. On short flights you can tolerate some inconvenience and discomfort, but on long haul I certainly cannot. So after a lot of research I settled for MAS. They offered extra legroom as standard (34in) and daytime flights (I overnighted in KL). I also secured two seaters on every leg, for extra comfort. To keep to daytime flights I could have returned from either Paris or Amsterdam, which I did.

That open jaw ticket cost AUD$1900, but I would have been prepared to pay more for such a relaxing and enjoyable trip. Comfort is the name of my game, but obviously not everybody's as the survey showed.
 
strangr
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:44 am

I normally travel with others and will commonly request an aisle seat, that way during the trip you can spread your legs straight out ahead, normally the other person i travel with will be on the other aisle, and during the flight we switch around so we get plenty of stretch time.
 
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par13del
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:52 am

Do we know who decided that 30" pitch between seats should be a "standard" or the 17" seat width?
Pricing today seems to be based on those two benchmarks if we can call them that, and other than WN and B6 somone somewhere decided that anything above those is premium and should come with extra cost, imagine if the standard leg room was 31" or 33", I know the bean counters would quickly let us know the lost revenue based on how many seats were removed to accomodate.
 
rikkus67
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:57 am

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 24):
I remember traveling across the country on a Greyhound

I've done both Greyhounds...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © John Yu



...........this was the more memorable trip. But other than going faster, not much else to enjoy (thank gosh I got/get a window seat)
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
cloudboy
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:02 am

Yet another case of bad survey design leading to misleading or totally invalid (pending on one's point of view of the survey design) results.

How much space? how much would you pay? When you say additional legroom, what is the survayee thinking? A few extra inches (like an exit row) or moving up to international business legroom? Space comes lower than other items - in what relevance? What do you mean by schedule - a few minutes, or whether or not you get there today or tomorrow? What do you mean by on time arrival? Off half an hour, or arriving 3 hours late? And what makes a price difference? 10$ 20$ $150? $300? And who is surveyed - what kind of flyers?

Unfortunately it suffers from a common fault. People develop a theory ahead of time, and then they design a survey around it, but end up letting that theory influence the survey design. We have developed a mind set that says price above all else, and we are so convinced of that that we forget that people will interpret it differently. We assume people know what we mean by a price difference. We assume we know what we mean by more legroom. After all, everyone knows the seat pitch of most airlines, right?

more data with questionable basis, making big influences on decisions.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
AeroWesty
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:09 am

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 42):
I've done both Greyhounds...

That 727 really makes my head hurt. I know I knew about it, but my brain had successfully wiped it from the gray matter. The first decade or so of deregulation sure wasn't kind to US commercial aviation in a number of ways.

I'm just happy that 33 years on now, First Class airfares are falling to reasonable levels (who would have thought, with all of the dire warnings about consolidation?), and that we have more options seating-wise in the main cabin, but low-to-medium frequency point-to-point service that doesn't touch a hub may never return except in limited cases—AS' new SAN-MCO flight being one example.
International Homo of Mystery
 
Skydrol
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:50 am

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 17):
If the booking engines like kayak and expedia could make it clearer where you get a few inches more legroom and IFE and for exactly how much, some more people might take advantage at booking.

Bingo!!!

This is exactly the problem. Imagine if online computer purchases were like this? You would have listings for HP, Dell, Acer, Toshiba, Sony, etc. with prices only, but no specifications. Sure the Acer might be 100$ less than the Toshiba, but maybe the HD, RAM, GPU, battery life are also of a lesser grade.

Using the "customers are cheap" theory, the Acer would outsell everything else anyway. But it doesn't. Why? Because customers are provided specifications to make computer purchase decisions based on their needs.

For some reason, this is not considered necessary for an airline ticket purchase which in many cases may cost more than a new computer. Now that is crazy!

Example...

Today

YVR - > YYZ (non-stop):

Airline A... 651 $
Airline B... 690 $
Airline B F/J... 2,267 $
Airline C... 572 $

Using Expedia, Kayak etc. likely most would choose Airline C, unless traveling F/J which is only offered by Airline B.


But with more information:

YVR - > YYZ (non-stop):

Airline A... 651 $ /// 31" pitch, 25 $ /checked bag, 1 free carry-on, 20 $ for 2nd carry-on, free soft drinks, no food or liquor available, no WiFi, free IFE, 1 lav for every 73 pax

Airline B... 690 $ /// 34" pitch, 2 checked bags free, 2 carry-ons free, free soft drinks, 5 $ beer/wine, free hot meal, 10 $ WiFi, free IFE, 1 lav for every 62 pax

Airline B F/J... 2,267 $ /// 40" pitch, 3 checked bags free, 2 carry-ons free, champagne, choice of 12 entrees, hot towels, free WiFi, free IFE/movies, 1 lav for 12 pax

Airline C... 572 $ /// 32" pitch, 25 $ /checked bag, 20 $ /carry-on, 3 $ soft drinks, 6 $ beer/wine, 7 $ cold, soggy sandwiches, no WiFi, no IFE, 1 lav for every 80 pax


... a better informed customer would make the choice that suits their situation the best, not just the lowest base price.




LD4
∙ ---{--« ∙ ----{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ---{--« ∙ --{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ----{--« ∙
 
stratosphere
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:59 am

Well I pay the extra for the upgrade on AirTran and actually I fly them enough to get free upgrades but now of course SWA f'd that up for me. So I don't know I don't fly too much anymore anyway it is too much of a pain. I long for the old times when you could fly an L1011 or DC-10 even on short hops. Thanks to 9/11 and the TSA and barbie jets everywhere I can truthfully say flying today totally sucks.
 
anplatinum
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:57 am

RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:14 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 36):

I see you're from Australia so this might not apply to you, but try taking a long distance and/or high speed train instead.

Unfortunately, passenger trains no longer run to smaller towns. To rub it in, the bus is contracted to the railways who are obliged to provide a service to the town after they ripped up the tracks about 30 years ago.

In the past there were air services to quite small towns often on a "milk run" basis. I can remember traveling from Cairns to Melbourne on a milk run with 5 stops in a 727. Passengers could stretch their legs at each stop but the whole trip took 9 hours. The cost was the same as a one stop flight. Now-days landing and fuel charges make these runs uneconomic.
 
manny
Posts: 480
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:59 am

RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:41 am

Wow...its really us. All this time I was thinking it was mismanagement of airline management that got the airlines to this shape!
 
vegas005
Posts: 263
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RE: CNN: Majority Of Pax Too Cheap To Pay For Comfort

Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:10 am

My former company was acquired and the new company had a coach only policy...as a very frequent traveller including numerous 10+ hour flights I lasted 2 years at the new company and then quit and moved to a company with a business class flying policy. I have flown AA, Delta, Swiss, Lufthansa, Singapore, Jet Air, United and most of the rest of them and quite frankly coach sucks in all of them. Some more than others.

Often I would pay the upgrade to economy plus on United and would have an open seat next to me only to have the flight attendent "decide" to move a sniffling brat or an old couple into economy plus. The system is completely unstructured and with the exception of a few inches of legroom the service is exactly the same. On Swiss A340 when the person in front of you reclines their seat you can't work on your pc, but you can easily examine the top of the persons scalp for any skin diseases. Lufthansa 747 coach class is also probably the worst of the bunch. Singapore A380 in the upper deck is a pretty good coach product but my company also had a "best" price policy so in addition to being crammed into coach I was also forced to take the cheapest price (and this was as a VP btw).

So I made a personal decision to move to a company with a more generous policy (after all I am travelling for the company not for my personal gain). I now fly business class 95 percent of the time and coach on short trips.

Bottom line is coach class is tolerable for a few hours or if you only fly occasionally, but having to do it numerous weeks a year long haul is borderline torcher.

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