FSDan
Topic Author
Posts: 908
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:21 am

It's been a while since I last posted one of these threads, so I spent some of my free time over the last few weeks looking through the schedules for the four US-based legacy airlines and gathering the following numbers.

To ensure a fair comparison, I used the same date for all four airlines: Thursday, July 26, 2012. I like using Thursdays because they seem to me to be the most "average", although they usually tend to be more of a peak day than not. Data was gathered from the UA and US online timetables, the AA booking engine, and the DL desktop timetable. There will undoubtedly be further minor tweaks to the schedules, but I would expect this to be a fairly accurate representation of what the peak summer schedule will look like.

For each legacy carrier, I will show the data for all stations with 100+ departures. Due to the number of stations for some airlines (DL and UA), I will create a separate thread for each to keep it manageable. Also, I'm grouping aircraft by body type (not differentiating engines, interiors, ETOPS, etc.) to simplify things. For example, I won't differentiate M82 from M83 (if there's a difference in the frame, I'm unaware of it...), but I will denote M88 and M90 separately. I'm sorry if that bothers you. Additionally, I'm going to use the same aircraft codes across all the threads for consistency's sake (for example, I'll note 737-700 as 73G for all airlines, even though DL uses the 73W code). Once again, sorry if that bothers you.

Here is the data for AA:


DFW

ER3: 34
ERD: 69
ER4: 182
CR7: 1
M80: 347
738: 97
752: 32
763: 11
777: 7

Total: 780


ORD

ERD: 134
ER4: 144
CR7: 60
M80: 77
738: 60
752: 11
763: 9
777: 6

Total: 501


MIA

AT7: 21
ER4: 43
738: 125
752: 86
762: 1
763: 17
777: 8

Total: 301


LAX

ERD: 42
CR7: 22
M80: 12
738: 41
752: 25
762: 10
763: 3
777: 5

Total: 160


LGA

ER3: 29
CR7: 37
M80: 27
738: 20

Total: 113


Note that "M80" represents both MD-82 and MD-83.

[Edited 2012-06-05 20:55:02]
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
FSDan
Topic Author
Posts: 908
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:24 am

(Note that JFK didn't make the cut in terms of number of departures. However, I'm including it here as honorary mention since it's an AA Cornerstone and since it's just barely under 100 departures.)

JFK

ERD: 11
ER4: 8
CR7: 6
738: 15
752: 15
762: 15
763: 13
777: 8

Total: 91
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24522
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:49 am

Great list, thanks.

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
MIA

AT7: 21
ER4: 43
738: 125
752: 86
762: 1
763: 17
777: 8

Total: 237



MIA total is 343.
a.
 
FSDan
Topic Author
Posts: 908
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:56 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 2):
MIA total is 343.

Whoops, I put the mainline total instead of the grand total. I've updated the original post to be 301 total at MIA.

Unless I still can't add...
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
commavia
Posts: 9643
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:08 am

While the unions have made some arguably fair points about the relative "fairness" and reasonableness of some of AA's demands in their 1113 term sheets, I think these numbers - all of them - comparing AA with its three remaining U.S. legacy competitors just serve to highlight the competitive disadvantage AA's SCOPE clause creates for the company.

At four of AA's five "cornerstone" hubs, mainline departures outstrip regional departures, and often at a nearly if not more-than 2-to-1 margin. The only AA "cornerstone" with less than a majority of departures with mainline is Chicago, and even there, AA still essentially the exact same mainline/regional mix as United, despite the fact that United has nearly a third more total departures.

On average, 40% of AA's departures at their major hubs/operations are regional. The comparable number is essentially the exact opposite at Delta, United and USAirways - all of which have roughly 60% regional on average at their largest operations. Not surprisingly, Delta, which has the least restrictive SCOPE clause, and with which - amazingly - only two of their hubs are majority mainline (ATL and JFK). Their other hubs are all majority regional. The difference is most starkly pronounced at United, which now has only two hubs that are majority mainline - SFO and LAX - and both by razor thin margins of only 1-3%. Every single other United hub has more regional than mainline departures.

This all underscores why AA's SCOPE clause was simply not competitive and one way or another has to change if AA is to combat what their largest peer competitors have done.
 
QANTAS747-438
Posts: 1656
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 7:01 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:15 am

Two things that surprise me: only 7 777 flts at DFW? And only 66 mainline flts out of JFK??? What happened to AA in JFK?
My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
 
User avatar
IrishAyes
Posts: 2144
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:04 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:37 am

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 5):

Two things that surprise me: only 7 777 flts at DFW?

Yeah, at first I thought I was miscounting, but so far this is what I am seeing:

-3x 777s on DFWLHR (eff 11 JUN 2012, disc 22 OCT 2012)
-2x 777s on DFWNRT (no change)
-1x 777 on DFWGRU (no change)
-1x 777 on DFWMAD (eff 28 MAY 2012, disc 20 AUG 2012)
-1x 777 on DFWEZE (eff 20 AUG 2012)

So the MAD and EZE flights will switch off come late August. Interestingly, DFWLHR reverts back to a single 777 and 763 twice daily service in the fall, whereas now it is 2x 777 and 1x 763, before becoming 3x 777 + 1 763 next week. I wonder if the fall schedule will change with the 77W deliveries....
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
777222LR
Posts: 159
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:19 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:44 am

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 6):
-3x 777s on DFWLHR (eff 11 JUN 2012, disc 22 OCT 2012)
-2x 777s on DFWNRT (no change)
-1x 777 on DFWGRU (no change)
-1x 777 on DFWMAD (eff 28 MAY 2012, disc 20 AUG 2012)
-1x 777 on DFWEZE (eff 20 AUG 2012)

This is actually quite a bit of an upgrade for DFW in terms of AA 777 movements.

The LHR flights are usually 2 x 777 and 1 x 763

The DFW-MAD flight has always been a 763 until very recently

The DFW-EZE flight has fluctuated between a 763 and 777.

The only really downgrade for DFW is the DFW-FRA flight to a 763 which has always been a 777.
 
jporterfi
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:25 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:06 am

Has ORD always had so many more regional jets than MD80s? And is there any particular reason why AA doesn't deplay its MD-80s out of MIA? Is it because they aren't ETOPS and the 738s are?
 
lasairlinerenth
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:59 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:29 am

Thanks for these numbers, FSDan. Perhaps I shouldn't have been, but I was surprised to see JFK didn't make the first cut; I thought, erroneously, of course, that AA had more of a presence there as opposed to LGA. Interesting to see, too, that DFW is dominated, by far, by M80 flights. When I transited through DFW on my way to and from Boston a couple of months ago, there seemed to me to be more of an even mix of M80s and 738s rather than a preponderance of the M80s. Although I love AAs 738s, it will be a sad day indeed when AAs M80s are all gone (as many others have said). I know my current home city will never be a hub for AA, but any idea where LAS sits in terms of AA flight numbers in relation to DFW/ORD/MIA/LGA/JFK (just curious).
 
qqflyboy
Posts: 1615
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:47 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:23 am

I'm surprised to see the 757 disappear from LGA-MIA. Currently there are six 757s between the two.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
FSDan
Topic Author
Posts: 908
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:39 pm

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 8):
Has ORD always had so many more regional jets than MD80s

Yes, but recently the total of MD-82/3s has been going down as the total of 738s has been increasing. A few years ago there were 100+ MD-80s and no 738s at all.

Quoting lasairlinerenth (Reply 9):
I know my current home city will never be a hub for AA, but any idea where LAS sits in terms of AA flight numbers in relation to DFW/ORD/MIA/LGA/JFK (just curious).

On the same day, LAS has 25 departures, all mainline. Mostly MD-82/3s with a few 738s and a single 752 mixed in.

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 10):
I'm surprised to see the 757 disappear from LGA-MIA. Currently there are six 757s between the two.

Yeah, it looks like it's going to be 10x 738. They also took the 757 off of ORD-LGA.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
realsim
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:19 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:40 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
While the unions have made some arguably fair points about the relative "fairness" and reasonableness of some of AA's demands in their 1113 term sheets, I think these numbers - all of them - comparing AA with its three remaining U.S. legacy competitors just serve to highlight the competitive disadvantage AA's SCOPE clause creates for the company.

At four of AA's five "cornerstone" hubs, mainline departures outstrip regional departures, and often at a nearly if not more-than 2-to-1 margin. The only AA "cornerstone" with less than a majority of departures with mainline is Chicago, and even there, AA still essentially the exact same mainline/regional mix as United, despite the fact that United has nearly a third more total departures.

On average, 40% of AA's departures at their major hubs/operations are regional. The comparable number is essentially the exact opposite at Delta, United and USAirways - all of which have roughly 60% regional on average at their largest operations. Not surprisingly, Delta, which has the least restrictive SCOPE clause, and with which - amazingly - only two of their hubs are majority mainline (ATL and JFK). Their other hubs are all majority regional. The difference is most starkly pronounced at United, which now has only two hubs that are majority mainline - SFO and LAX - and both by razor thin margins of only 1-3%. Every single other United hub has more regional than mainline departures.

This all underscores why AA's SCOPE clause was simply not competitive and one way or another has to change if AA is to combat what their largest peer competitors have done.

     

That is one of the biggest problems AA has. Not only they are at a clear disadvantage regarding the number of regional departures and % of their total departures, but also regarding the size of their regional jets. UA and DL have hundreds of large regional jets, while AA only has 47 CR7 and no aircraft bigger than that (DL has 266 CR7 and bigger).

Given that AA will have growth problems from NYC and LAX (slots and gate space), they should focus on having a new scope clause that allows more % of large regional jets. This is the proposal the company has made:

- Regional aircraft can have up to 88 seats.
- Regional aircraft cannot exceed 70% of mainline aircraft.
- Regional aircraft with 80 to 88 seats cannot exceed 30% of mainline aircraft.

Of course, this proposal would be one of the least restrictives scope clauses (although less than US Airways), so it will be reduced. However, it demonstrates that AA wants to operate the E190, which would be the perfect replacement for half of the M80 fleet, with the other half being replaced with the already ordered A319s.
 
eaglepower83
Posts: 357
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:54 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:49 pm

If NYC is one of AA's "cornerstones" in their network, why do they have virtually NO connecting flights through NY from New England and the surrounding area?
Being located in Hartford, new to the AA network, it seems really annoying to have to connect in [sweet home] Chicago for everything, when NY would be a great deal closer and easier, yet more convenient to fly to instead of drive etc.
I could connect in EWR or Philly a dozen times over on other airlines.....but NYC seems to be mostly O/D?

Is this because of the lack of space? Gates? etc.

Thanks,
 
miaami
Posts: 604
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:27 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:54 pm

If the US/AA merger actually happens what would a combined US/AA LGA operation look like?
 
tommy767
Posts: 4658
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:18 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:58 pm

Anyone else also quite shocked that AA only has 11 757 movements out of ORD these days?
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
usairways85
Posts: 3536
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:11 pm

Quoting miaami (Reply 14):
If the US/AA merger actually happens what would a combined US/AA LGA operation look like?

Possibly similar to the AA operation today. After the DL/US slot swap US doesn't have much of a presence in LGA outside of flts to hubs.
 
rafflesking
Posts: 123
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:08 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:47 pm

Thanks so much for the effort to put these threads together!

Where does the lone MIA 762 departure head to?

And where do the remaining 763 frames depart from? By my count, this is only 53 frames, vs. their current count of 59. I didn't think any AA 763 routes required 3 frames..
 
User avatar
IrishAyes
Posts: 2144
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:04 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:50 pm

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 7):
This is actually quite a bit of an upgrade for DFW in terms of AA 777 movements.

The LHR flights are usually 2 x 777 and 1 x 763

The DFW-MAD flight has always been a 763 until very recently

The DFW-EZE flight has fluctuated between a 763 and 777.

The only really downgrade for DFW is the DFW-FRA flight to a 763 which has always been a 777.

Ehh, yes and no...

The LHR flights are definitely an upgrade, but won't be remaining at 3x daily (or more than 1x daily on a 777 for that matter) beyond October.

DFWMAD was a 777 in summer 2010, so that has been utilized before. So was DFWCDG that year, along with DFWFRA.

DFWEZE was 777 year-round for awhile, but I think AA is happy keeping it at a 763 during low season (northern summer) and reverting back to a 777 during high season (northern winter), hence the switch-off with MAD.

But, as I mentioned earlier, we shall see once the 77Ws come in.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
SJUSXM
Posts: 261
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:52 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:58 pm

Quoting rafflesking (Reply 17):

Where does the lone MIA 762 departure head to?

JFK
AT7, ER3, ER4, ER5, CR7, E70, E75, F100, M82, M83, 722, 732, 738, 752, 762, 763, AB6, 320, 321, 772, 77W
 
threeifbyair
Posts: 939
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:44 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Quoting FSDan (Thread starter):
DFW

ER3: 34
ERD: 69
ER4: 182
CR7: 1
M80: 347
738: 97
752: 32
763: 11
777: 7

Where does the CR7 go?
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 3932
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:45 pm

That cornerstone in NYC is looking mighty small.

91 departures out of JFK...and they just spent $1.3 billion on a half finished Terminal 8!

And no more 757s out of LGA...sad.

They will be relegated to a distant 4 in NYC behind UA, DL and B6 unless they do something drastic:

1. Retrench to JFK and make that an actual hub with all NYC departures (unlikely)

2. Buy B6 (also unlikely with their current financial situation)

3. US buys them and they say adios to the NYC in anything beyond hub and token important market flying

Time will tell.
 
eastern023
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:54 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:01 pm

I am still scratching my head why MIA-SCL is not a 772. Cargo and Pax traffic is there, but they won't upgrade the station. I guess is not as high yielding as other stations.

Rudy from IAD
AA will Rise Again!
 
tommy767
Posts: 4658
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:18 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21):

Honestly, aside the usual suspects this might be the best option for AA. They went from being the largest 7 years ago to now the smallest.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
eastern023
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:54 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:25 pm

When is the first 77W scheduled to begin service? Sorry if I missed it.
AA will Rise Again!
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24522
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 23):
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21):

Honestly, aside the usual suspects this might be the best option for AA. They went from being the largest 7 years ago to now the smallest.

Third largest; AA is larger than B6 in NYC in total passengers carried. They have fallen quite bad in the past decade, but they are still strong in New York, regardless of what people want to think.

At LaGuardia AA is a very strong number two; it is sitting on about two dozen unused slots, as an airlines' LGA slot portfolio only needs to be used 80% on any given day. Growth will be achieved by using those slots and upgauging to larger ERJ-175/190 type aircraft on the regional flights. This I can see happening in the short-term after AA exits bankruptcy.

At JFK AA is sitting on a goldmine of prime European departure slots that are being used for destinations like Las Vegas and Orlando. Growth can be achieved over time by using those slots for their optimal purpose - long-haul - and then adding flights outside European prime departures where slots are easily acquired.

[Edited 2012-06-06 10:02:39]
a.
 
mogandoCI
Posts: 1247
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:39 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:22 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 25):
At JFK AA is sitting on a goldmine of prime European departure slots that are being used for destinations like Las Vegas and Orlando. Growth can be achieved over time by using those slots for their optimal purpose - long-haul - and then adding flights outside European prime departures where slots are easily acquired.

AA is barely at 2x daily to LAS (3x in a blue moon) ... and you want to trim that to what? 1x ?

For tomorrow (Thurs), JFKMCO departs at 0705 and 1450, neither of which is exactly what you call "prime European departure slot".
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 4549
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:05 pm

Quoting realsim (Reply 12):
(DL has 266 CR7 and bigger).

255. Of which 153 can have 76 seats, 102 must have 70 seats or less.

Quoting realsim (Reply 12):
Regional aircraft can have up to 88 seats.

Its almost like people on a.net enjoy seeing carriers go into BK. smh. Why should a judge give them more seats than DL/UA's contract?
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
deltaflyertoo
Posts: 1479
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 3:18 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:05 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 26):
At JFK AA is sitting on a goldmine of prime European departure slots that are being used for destinations like Las Vegas and Orlando.

Do they really? This is interesting discussion about AA/JFK I was just asking myself the other day, what happened to all of TWA's JFK assets after AA bought it? AA dismantle it? Sell some to B6? AA isn't operating nearly what TWA was at JFK...

Does AA really have a bunch of slots at JFK they aren't using? But yeah, I agree with JFKLGANYC in reply 21 what needs to happen if AA really wants to make NYC an official cornerstone, or get off the pot, merge w/ US and be happy with making PHL the prime east coast gateway.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24522
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:08 pm

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 29):
Does AA really have a bunch of slots at JFK they aren't using?

No, AA is using them - just not for prime purposes (i.e. Europe). AA acquired a dozen slots from jetBlue - all in the prime European departure period - about two years ago. Only two of them have been used for trans-Atlantic flying (MAN and MAD departures). The rest, still domestic.
a.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 4549
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:24 pm

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 29):

Do they really? This is interesting discussion about AA/JFK I was just asking myself the other day, what happened to all of TWA's JFK assets after AA bought it? AA dismantle it? Sell some to B6? AA isn't operating nearly what TWA was at JFK...

Employees and GSE would be about it. Route authorities became worthless after open skies, and Terminal 5 is home to jetBlue.
I dont believe at the time of TWA/AA JFK had any slots, maybe just peak time.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 30):

JFK is use it or lose it right? or 80%?

I know at one point Airlines got the green light to sit on some slots because of some of the runway work going on but I believe the period is over.
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
Talaier
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 7:38 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:08 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21):
That cornerstone in NYC is looking mighty small.

91 departures out of JFK...and they just spent $1.3 billion on a half finished Terminal 8!

Do bear in mind that technically speaking IBs and BAs flights also count as AA, so the number of departures from JFK is, at least in those terms, substantially higher. Unlike DFW or ORD, where AA has a stronger presence than its transatlantic partners, JFK sees a lot of flights both from BA and IB.
 
hoons90
Posts: 3116
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:12 pm

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 20):
Where does the CR7 go?


Aspen
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
PIEAvantiP180
Posts: 485
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:04 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:13 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 25):

Yes they have domestic flights on slots that can be used for Europe, but if they want to expand further they will need domestic feed to fill those flights as not all of the flights people are talking about can be filled profitably with just O&D. So if you take away the feed then there goes your chance to make money on those new flights.
 
realsim
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:19 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:28 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 27):
Its almost like people on a.net enjoy seeing carriers go into BK. smh. Why should a judge give them more seats than DL/UA's contract?

I don't enjoy it at all, the only thing I pointed is that, right now, AA can only outsource 47 aircraft with 50-68 seats, and NONE bigger than that. This is a huge disadvantage, isn't it? Now, we don't know what the future contract numbers will be, this is just AA's proposal. And, BTW, US has the contract which allows more large RJ by far (446 with more than 76 seats), so APA should take into account...

Source: http://www.restructuringamr.com/our-people-apa-kt2.asp
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21):
That cornerstone in NYC is looking mighty small.

91 departures out of JFK...and they just spent $1.3 billion on a half finished Terminal 8!

And no more 757s out of LGA...sad.

They will be relegated to a distant 4 in NYC behind UA, DL and B6 unless they do something drastic:

1. Retrench to JFK and make that an actual hub with all NYC departures (unlikely)

2. Buy B6 (also unlikely with their current financial situation)

3. US buys them and they say adios to the NYC in anything beyond hub and token important market flying

Time will tell.

I could be wrong, but the plan the company has is to codeshare with B6 in all the domestic markets except the ones AA would actually serve, then reduce their domestic regional operations and use those slots for international flights. This means that the total number of departures will not see an important increase, but it will rather change to be more mailine and international focused.

In the company's proposal to the APA back in November, they said:

"As our competitors have consolidated, we are now the third largest network carrier. We would like to expand our network in the northeast. However, we face slot constraints, so we cannot add flying in peak demand times without cutting flying in the same time window. As a result, we cannot grow our northeast operations without domestic codesharing. In contrast, Delta and United both operate full-service hubs in New York, serving and connecting more markets than we do. Additionally, Delta’s and US Airways’ shuttle products are used as sales tools to shift our high value business passengers to their networks."

The concrete proposal was:

* After the Company grows mainline flying, permit the establishment of Domestic Codeshare to address network gaps in JFK.
* Permit the establishment of Domestic Codeshare on a Shuttle product for BOS-LGA-DCA; this codeshare will only be allowed as long as the Company maintains a departure baseline in LGA, DCA, and BOS
* After the Company grows mainline flying, and creates a West Coast satellite base, theCompany can expand the existing Domestic Codeshare with Alaska to address network gaps in LAX/West Coast

Source: http://www.aanegotiations.com/docume...roposal_ExecutiveSummaries_000.pdf

My opinion is that, given that there isn't really another solution, it is a good way to start. AA will focus on lucrative long haul international markets, letting B6 take charge of almost all the feed except the cornerstones and other important domestic markets. Later, in a future, AA could try to convince B6 to join OneWorld, or even merge, who knows...

[Edited 2012-06-06 15:32:47]
 
flyby519
Posts: 1147
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:31 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:56 pm

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 33):
Yes they have domestic flights on slots that can be used for Europe, but if they want to expand further they will need domestic feed to fill those flights as not all of the flights people are talking about can be filled profitably with just O&D. So if you take away the feed then there goes your chance to make money on those new flights.

It is no secret that AMR wants B6 to provide all the domestic feed in JFK. We'll see what happens in the bankruptcy court
These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
 
FSDan
Topic Author
Posts: 908
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:00 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 15):
Anyone else also quite shocked that AA only has 11 757 movements out of ORD these days?

Recently, 757 departures are down in all hubs. Within the last year, DFW got ~40 daily, ORD got ~20 daily, and MIA had 90+. MIA has lost the least, but it seems that 738s have filled in a bit at DFW and ORD.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
spiritair97
Posts: 1191
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:28 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:21 am

When taxiing at LGA the other day, I saw an AA 752 pushing back for departure to MIA. I guess that's gonna be the last AA 752 I see at LGA for a while.  

On a side note, I was surprised at the amount of AA 738s I saw during my three-hour wait at the gate. I saw about 5 in an hour and a half.
 
flyguy1
Posts: 1660
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 1999 9:45 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:29 am

JFK had 106 departures last summer (as per this same thread, 2011 version)
727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
 
lasairlinerenth
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:59 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:41 am

Quoting FSDan (Reply 11):
On the same day, LAS has 25 departures, all mainline. Mostly MD-82/3s with a few 738s and a single 752 mixed in.

Thanks, FSDan!

Awesome that AA has 25 departures out of LAS and that they're all mainline. I remember there being RJ service for awhile in the mid-2000s -- I think for the flight(s) AA had from LAS to LAX and back. I am surprised we still get one 752; I thought all of AA's service to/from LAS was now M82/3 or 738. Is the 752 a DFW flight and return?

Regards,
Tony
 
FutureUScapt
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:39 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:47 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 2):
MIA total is 343
Quoting FSDan (Reply 3):
Whoops, I put the mainline total instead of the grand total. I've updated the original post to be 301 total at MIA.

Unless I still can't add...

Peak day July total is 301.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 25):
At LaGuardia AA is a very strong number two; it is sitting on about two dozen unused slots, as an airlines' LGA slot portfolio only needs to be used 80% on any given day. Growth will be achieved by using those slots and upgauging to larger ERJ-175/190 type aircraft on the regional flights. This I can see happening in the short-term after AA exits bankruptcy.

This unused number seems to grow every time this topic comes up. I'm not sure if you are referring to twenty four slots or twenty four slot pairs, but in any event, it's way overstated.

AA holds 118 slot pairs at LGA; this summer they will operate 113 peak day departures so through creative scheduling, they have five unused pairs meaning that any material growth AA wishes to do at LGA will have to come through upgauges, as you suggest.
 
PIEAvantiP180
Posts: 485
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:04 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:00 am

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 35):

Yes that's what they want but are they going to get it is another question. AA management and AA pilots will have to come under some terms and I believe that's its either going to be more larger RJs or domestic code share, in my opinion management won't get both. Unions will fight this to the end, even if a new contract is imposed and they are forced to both options the next time they sit down for contact negotiations will be hell. Another thing that we are all almost certain of is that if US and AA merge they will not need a code share with B6 nor would either side want to cooperate like that. Plus i'm sure that the guys connecting and paying for first class will not be happy to ride part of the way in coach class. But that's just my opinion and could be totally wrong.
 
WROORD
Posts: 665
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:36 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:38 am

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 13):
Being located in Hartford, new to the AA network, it seems really annoying to have to connect in [sweet home] Chicago for everything, when NY would be a great deal closer and easier, yet more convenient to fly to instead of drive etc.

Multiple airlines used to have BDL -LGA/JFK connections years ago. At one point DL was flying 762 BDL-JFK-CDG. It all went away after 9/11.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 4549
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:53 am

Quoting realsim (Reply 34):
This is a huge disadvantage, isn't it?

maybe right now, but your bar graph has a flaw or two.
1) how many 50 seat jets can southwest outsource?
2) how many 70 seat jets can the CO side of UA outsource?
Why does that matter, because these two airlines have basically been the most profitable airlines over the last 5-7 years.

Also it is likely that both DCI and UAX will be getting smaller over the next for years and not larger.
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
FSDan
Topic Author
Posts: 908
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:03 am

Quoting lasairlinerenth (Reply 39):
Is the 752 a DFW flight and return?

It's a LAS-MIA flight.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
lasairlinerenth
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:59 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:35 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 44):
It's a LAS-MIA flight.

Gotcha. Thanks, good Sir!
 
commavia
Posts: 9643
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:58 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 29):
No, AA is using them - just not for prime purposes (i.e. Europe). AA acquired a dozen slots from jetBlue - all in the prime European departure period - about two years ago. Only two of them have been used for trans-Atlantic flying (MAN and MAD departures). The rest, still domestic.

I generally agree.

AA has plenty of slots at JFK with which to build a stronger operational if/when they want to. There are lots of peak-time slots at JFK today being used for RJs to small markets in the northeast that could be redeployed into larger international and transcon O&D markets if AA had a true 'hub' down at PHL to handle the connections. A large JFK operation optimized for connections, together with a large LGA operation optimized for connections, would be quite the formidable combination.

AA is already essentially tied with JetBlue (AA is slightly larger) for a fairly distant #3 in the New York metro area with United and Delta being essentially tied for #1. However, a hypothetical 'new AA' - combined with USAirways - would be an extremely strong #3, basically 75% of the size of United and Delta, which is perfectly sufficient to be a massive force in the market - again, particularly if AA was then able to stop using JFK for connections and optimize both airports better for the massive local O&D market.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 43):
maybe right now, but your bar graph has a flaw or two.
1) how many 50 seat jets can southwest outsource?
2) how many 70 seat jets can the CO side of UA outsource?
Why does that matter, because these two airlines have basically been the most profitable airlines over the last 5-7 years.

That's a straw man, and it's false. First off, just because Southwest and Continental don't operate large RJs and have been generally profitable (or generally, relatively "more" profitable) in the last decade doesn't mean large RJs are irrelevant. Continental/United will do anything to keep the United SCOPE clause precisely because of how competitively critical it is for a network airline in 2012. Southwest is a meaningless comparison - it's a whole different business model. And, for that matter, it's a whole different business model (Southwest's, that is) that actually isn't all that terribly profitable these days.

For a global, network airline in the U.S. in 2012 - which AA most definitely is - large RJs are absolutely critical. There is simply no other way, in a market as competitive as today's, for an airline of that type to profitably access lots of traffic flows any other way. Smaller RJs have too high a CASM, and there are simply not enough profitable passengers around to fill mainline jets anymore in a lot of these markets in question. Witness, as a rebuttal to your point, the enormous financial success - relative to network peers - that Delta has had in recent years. Now, I'm not going to make the sweeping and broad generalization that this has been driven entirely by their massive fleet of large RJs and generally weak SCOPE clause. But I think we can all agree that is certainly a not-insignificant part of it.

Bottom line is that AA badly needs (and has needed for 5-10 years) a larger fleet of large RJs, and it is critical that they address that - either voluntarily or involuntarily - in bankruptcy. I still contend that if the company and the union put their sabers down, there is absolutely room for a compromise on this. If the pilots agreed to a pay scale for 70-90 seaters that was essentially in line with the going rate for those jets at regional carriers, and in return AA agreed that all of that flying would go to mainline AA pilots on the AA seniority list, that would be a simply breathtaking precedent for the industry and the "profession" that the APA always likes to talk about "defending." There is a deal to be made there - I feel confident - but the question is whether these two sides can actually get to it.
 
User avatar
American 767
Posts: 3924
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 7:27 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:50 am

It looks like LGA will soon be 757 free, as far as AA is concerned, leaving only the MD-80 and the 738 as mainline jets.

Of course DFW is still MD-80 heaven, as it always was in the last 20 years.

Over 60 MD-80 departures out of ORD:

More than half of that is for departures to LGA and DFW.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 36):
Quoting tommy767 (Reply 15):
Anyone else also quite shocked that AA only has 11 757 movements out of ORD these days?

Recently, 757 departures are down in all hubs. Within the last year, DFW got ~40 daily, ORD got ~20 daily, and MIA had 90+. MIA has lost the least, but it seems that 738s have filled in a bit at DFW and ORD.

It doesn't surprise me to see not many 757 departures daily out of ORD, American flies the 757 to only 2 destinations: MIA and SNA.
American has already begun the 757 retirement, so it is not surprising the the number of departures are going down, and that will continue to go further down.

Ben Soriano
Ben Soriano
 
FSDan
Topic Author
Posts: 908
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:50 am

Quoting American 767 (Reply 47):
It doesn't surprise me to see not many 757 departures daily out of ORD, American flies the 757 to only 2 destinations: MIA and SNA.

There is an LAX flight too, and 2x to STL. Still not many destinations, though...
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
lasairlinerenth
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:59 am

RE: AA Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:10 am

Quoting American 767 (Reply 47):
American has already begun the 757 retirement, so it is not surprising the the number of departures are going down, and that will continue to go further down.

When I went from Las Vegas to Boston in April, I was really happy to get a 757 for the DFW to BOS leg. When I booked the trip originally back in January, that segment was supposed to be operated by an M80. Not sure why the aircraft was changed to a 757, but glad it was. On that trip alone, all told, I got to ride 3 of AAs fleet types: the M80, the 757, and the 738. Cool stuff.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 737tanker, 7BOEING7, alfa164, ATLFlyer323, Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], carljanderson, Gemuser, georgiabill, Google [Bot], ikolkyo, Jal1975, L-188, lhpdx, LHRBFSTrident, qf15, timtam, United1, vatveng, vhabr, VirginFlyer, Viscount724, Yahoo [Bot] and 263 guests