travelavnut
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L-1011 With New Engines?!

Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:29 pm

Besides being an aviation geek I am also a full-time space nerd  

Just now I was reading an article on SpaceflightNow concerning an upcoming launch of Orbital Sciences's Pegasus rocket that is launched from a modified L-1011. One tidbit in this article got my attention:

Link: http://www.spaceflightnow.com/pegasus/nustar/takeoff/
"Stargazer" is flying this mission with three new, fuel-efficient engines on the Lockheed TriStar aircraft originally built in the 1960s and purchased from Air Canada for conversion into the Pegasus launcher.

So, what, are these just "new"/mint RB211's? Or are these really new engines eg. a diffrerent type?! I can not believe the latter as this would mean certification, right?
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BrouAviation
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Thread starter):
I can not believe the latter as this would mean certification, right?

I think the aircraft will be registered as experimental anyway, so putting some new engines on it isn't going to make any difference..
Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
 
vegas005
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:37 pm

The article was referring to the rockets engines, not the planes.

The rocket specializes in carrying satellites and experiments that weigh up to 1,000 pounds into low-Earth orbit. With the body of an oversize model rocket and tail of an airplane, the Pegasus has three solid-fuel rocket motors and a rather unique and economical way of lifting off.
 
travelavnut
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:42 pm

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 1):
I think the aircraft will be registered as experimental anyway, so putting some new engines on it isn't going to make any difference..

That would make sense I guess. My next question would be; what type of engines? Newer version of the RB211?

Quoting vegas005 (Reply 2):
The article was referring to the rockets engines, not the planes.

Read the text I posted again;

"Stargazer" is flying this mission with three new, fuel-efficient engines on the Lockheed TriStar aircraft originally built in the 1960s and purchased from Air Canada for conversion into the Pegasus launcher.

Stargazer is the Tristar, this text is not about the Pegasus rocket.

[Edited 2012-06-06 07:43:45]
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skipness1E
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:47 pm

It dates from the 1970s not the 60s!
 
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ADent
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:51 pm

It is mentioned on Spaceflightnow too - http://spaceflightnow.com/pegasus/nustar/tour/ . Lots of photos of the L-1011 there.
 
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dash500
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:53 pm

"Stargazer" was recently upgraded to a -200 standard, which means it now has RB211-524B engines instead of RB211-22B.

This is because no MRO shop in the world works with the RB211-22B anymore and Orbital had to comply with the AD's.
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tjwgrr
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:23 pm

Looks like N140SC will be heading to the Marshall Islands after a stop at Hickam AFB in Hawaii:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N140SC
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
akelley728
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting dash500 (Reply 6):
"Stargazer" was recently upgraded to a -200 standard, which means it now has RB211-524B engines instead of RB211-22B.

  

Early model L1011s (-1s and -100s primarily) had RB211-22B engines. Lockheed then produced the -200 model that used the upgraded RB211-524B engines. Lockheed also put out an upgrade kit that allowed early -1s and -100s to be upgraded to the same RB211-524B engins. The -1s and -100s that were upgraded were redisgnated as the -250 model.

RR stopped supporting the RB211-22B a number of years ago. So any remaining -1s/-100s have been either retired or upgraded to the -250 standard, such as Orbital's bird.
 
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Vasu
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:36 pm

Made me realise how I miss seeing the L1011...  
 
sweair
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:49 pm

Was this engine a close relative to the 757 engine?
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 10):
Was this engine a close relative to the 757 engine?

Well except for the name, no.

The RB211-535 on the B757 had a similar core to the -524, but everything else was different!
It always amazed me that two similar engines could have some many differences.

The RB211-524 was very similar to the -22B. It had an uprated core with an extra stage, and had about 10 pc better fuel consumption and worked much better, but on the outside it was nearly identical. All the components looked exactly the same, but had different pt nbrs. You could fit a -22B Fuel control to a -524, but it didn't work!! (been there).

To change a -22B to a -524 on the Tristar was simple. About two days work changing air system components like sensors and control valves, then an engine change and new engine instruments.
 
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scbriml
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:03 pm

I saw it just over a year ago at Mojave.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Brimley

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sweair
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:11 pm

I never got to fly on the L1011, I did many trips on the DC10s that SAS had, the LA route was a nice route. I actually did most flying in the 80s and 90s, have stayed close to home in the last 10 years. In those days air travel was different. It was more expensive and not as common as today.
 
boeingorbust
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:10 am

I feel lucky I actually got to work on an L10 at one point in my life a few years ago! Was a great experience!
 
trnswrld
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:08 pm

Quoting vegas005 (Reply 2):
The article was referring to the rockets engines, not the planes.

hahaha, im pretty sure no one will ever refer to a rocket engine as "fuel efficient". Its the L1011 they are talking about  
 
SEPilot
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:47 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 4):
It dates from the 1970s not the 60s!

The L-1011 was mostly designed in the '60's; it first flew in November 1970 and entered service in 1972. To me that makes it a '60's design.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
sweair
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:59 pm

Imagine a L1011 with genX engines and a cfrp wing etc It would be a decent ETOPS free aircraft? Or imagine a 752 weight trimmed, new wing and with current engines.

I don't think modern aircraft or that much better, put more modern infrastructure on historical aircraft and they will give you a run for the money.
 
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dash500
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:50 pm

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 15):
hahaha, im pretty sure no one will ever refer to a rocket engine as "fuel efficient". Its the L1011 they are talking about  

Yes, they are talking about the L10's engines. However it was not fuel efficiency that made Orbital change its engines. The true reason was given by me earlier on this thread. For an airplane that flies so rarely, fuel efficiency is certainly not a problem.

As a curiosity, Stargazer's previous RB211-22B engines were already "overclocked" engines tuned to give a 10% increase in power for its special missions.
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akelley728
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:21 am

Quoting travelavnut (Thread starter):
"Stargazer" is flying this mission with three new, fuel-efficient engines on the Lockheed TriStar aircraft originally built in the 1960s and purchased from Air Canada for conversion into the Pegasus launcher.

So, what, are these just "new"/mint RB211's?

I wonder that myself - did RR indeed build new RB211-524Bs? I am sure there are plenty of spare RB211-524Bs around the world from all of the L1011-250s and L1011-500s that have retired over the past ten years.
 
vegas005
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:22 am

My bad..kind of a poorly written sentence though... Either way a cool project and a neat way to launch the rocket.
 
babybus
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:59 am

They have cleaned that Tristar up quite a bit. That landing gear looks brand new.

There must be loads of RB211 engines laying idle around the world. But are there any passenger Tristars still flying?
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
Navion
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:00 pm

For what its worth, near the end of the L1011 production run Lockheed had studied updating the L1011 series and it included using the then "new" GE CF6-80 series engines. I remember reading about this (with artists renderings) in Aviation Week & Space Technology. Who knows what might have been?
 
by738
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:23 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 16):
The L-1011 was mostly designed in the '60's; it first flew in November 1970 and entered service in 1972. To me that makes it a '60's design.

Indeed. The first actual hull was built in 1969
 
chieft
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:40 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 21):
But are there any passenger Tristars still flying?

I think Euroatlantic still operates one.
Aircraft are marginal costs with wings.
 
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Vasu
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:56 am

Quoting chieft (Reply 24):


I think they replaced that one with a 767 some time back... Even Luzair no longer operates any, as far as I know.
 
SEPilot
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:28 am

Does Lockheed still support the L-1011? I thought I read somewhere that they don't.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
sweair
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:26 pm

In its time it was a very good airplane, but other circumstances ended it too soon. One of my favorite airframes, a beauty!
 
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:43 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):
I saw it just over a year ago at Mojave.

Beautiful photo, Steve, but kinda highlights the shortish wing span that Lockheed gave her, which made it difficult for her to expand to longer routes later in her life.
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maxpower1954
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:13 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 26):
Does Lockheed still support the L-1011? I thought I read somewhere that they don't.

Yes, they do.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products.html
 
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RE: L-1011 With New Engines?!

Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 29):
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 26):
Does Lockheed still support the L-1011? I thought I read somewhere that they don't.

Yes, they do.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/pro....html

Indeed, the UK RAF still operate the L-1011 so there is at least some critical mass to keep the support team around. Once that winds down, there will be even less support for it.

I have to wonder about that list though: it has the C-141 Starlifter on it, and AFAIK none has flown since the USAF retired theirs in 2006, or am I wrong?
Inspiration, move me brightly!