kaitak
Topic Author
Posts: 8942
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:51 pm

BA is said to be looking at the possibility of adding more 77Ws to its fleet, as part of its plans to roll over its long haul fleet over the next few years; it will take delivery of its first A380s and 787s next year; although these were late, it was able to keep some of its 744s in service longer, an option it is not likely to have with the A350-1000/777X, which will enter service later this decade, when BA's 744 fleet will be a lot older. One of its deciding factors will be the level of certainty about deliveries.

The decision will be made by IAG on behalf of both IB and BA, but with BA (and presumably ) IB having a major input.

After that, BA will look at the feasibility of replacing its short haul fleet at LGW.
 
anstar
Posts: 2868
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
After that, BA will look at the feasibility of replacing its short haul fleet at LGW.

I believe they are replacing 6 734's at LGW with 733's from WW.
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 4958
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:13 pm

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
One of its deciding factors will be the level of certainty about deliveries.

In other words, the cost of a D-check on a 100,000+-hour 744 will pay for a fair amount of fuel...
 
PlaneAdmirer
Posts: 248
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:39 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:23 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 2):
the cost of a D-check on a 100,000+-hour 744

Ok, I am game. Any idea what that would cost?
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 4958
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:04 pm

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 3):
Ok, I am game. Any idea what that would cost?

There are people on here who are vastly more qualified than me to answer that question, but I've seen numbers between $2 and $4 million thrown around for a 747 D-check.
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:27 pm

Do you think they may switch the LHR-PHX flight to a 77W?
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
trex8
Posts: 4598
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 4):
There are people on here who are vastly more qualified than me to answer that question, but I've seen numbers between $2 and $4 million thrown around for a 747 D-check.

Thats only 2-3 months lease payments for a 77W. Surely its higher for a D check?
 
JOYA380B747
Posts: 663
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:59 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):
Do you think they may switch the LHR-PHX flight to a 77W?

I do not see this happening for another year at least, although I'd be thrilled if BA did switch over to 77W on this route.... Its time BA deployed fresh metal on LHR-PHX.
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
 
ba319-131
Posts: 8132
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 1:27 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 1):

- why replace owned 734's with leased 733's?

Not heard anything about this.......
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:37 pm

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 7):
I do not see this happening for another year at least, although I'd be thrilled if BA did switch over to 77W on this route.... Its time BA deployed fresh metal on LHR-PHX.

But it is such a rush to see the ol' Jumbo roar over my house daily 
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
kaitak
Topic Author
Posts: 8942
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:43 pm

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 8):
why replace owned 734's with leased 733's?

I've heard this rumour and while it may be true, it's only going to be a stopgap - if it does happen at all. Six 733s - of similar vintage and smaller capacity - are not going to be a good replacement for 734s; I suspect the only reason they're doing this is because they'll face penalties if they break the leases for the 733s, so basing them at LGW is the least bad option.

Ultimately, I think the LGW short haul operation is in its sunset days; they will move the best business routes to LCY (operated by E-170/190s) and gradually shut down the rest of them, leaving BE, FR and U2 to fight over the crumbs.
 
BA174
Posts: 290
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:55 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:03 pm

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 8):
Quoting anstar (Reply 1):

- why replace owned 734's with leased 733's?

Not heard anything about this.......


Exactly I don't believe it at all.

The 734s are probably BAs only full fleet of paid off aircraft (maybe 767s too). The whole reason BAs leased LGW 733/5s went a few years ago was to stem costs and have less leased aircraft. Bringing the 733s to LGW would increase costs.

I suspect they will be returned as soon as WW wind up in September.
 
User avatar
United_fan
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:11 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):
Do you think they may switch the LHR-PHX flight to a 77W?

Would a 77W have trouble in the Summer departing PHX ?
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
fcogafa
Posts: 865
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:37 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:49 pm

Quoting from Flightglobal today...

...Meanwhile BA is also turning its attention to the replacement of the ageing 737-400 fleet that serve its short-haul network from London Gatwick. But Williams says that he must be sure of a sound business case for Gatwick's short-haul operations. "I need to justify that [fleet replacement] to IAG with a plan that is built around the ability to make a return," he says.
 
fcogafa
Posts: 865
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:37 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:51 pm

Another interesting quote from Flightglobal regarding BA B.777's possible future....

In the interim, BA has taken six of eight 777-300ERs it has on order, which are "partly a hedge on late deliveries", and Williams says that one option could be to take more. "The problem is, is the next generation going to be so much more fuel efficient than 777-300ERs to make it worth waiting for? But I'm conscious of the fact that if you wait for something and it never turns up eventually you don't have any aircraft."
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:52 pm

Quoting United_fan (Reply 12):
Would a 77W have trouble in the Summer departing PHX ?

One took off for JL back in March when It was quite hot outside (upper 90s, unseasonably warm) without any issues, but you're right, I'm not 100% sure.....
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 4958
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:57 pm

Quoting United_fan (Reply 12):
Would a 77W have trouble in the Summer departing PHX ?

For a relatively short flight to London? Not at all. DXB has summer conditions that are just as vicious and EK flies 77Ws far, far further.
 
JOYA380B747
Posts: 663
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:37 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 9):
But it is such a rush to see the ol' Jumbo roar over my house daily

If the routes haven't already been declared by BA, I see a greater possibility of they switching to 787 rather than 77W next year.....
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
 
jfk777
Posts: 5840
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:44 am

BA needs to step up to the plate and commit to 777-300ER's. BA needs 20 77W's because if the sign for x 777-9 they will not arrive at LHR until 2018. BA's 744 fleet ,especially the 1989-1992 delivered ones, need to go to that retirement home in the desert of Arizona.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 4632
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:13 am

Quoting United_fan (Reply 12):

I can't think of may things that gives the beast (aka the GE-90-115B) problems.

but for real, EK does a good bit longer from DXB without problem.
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
davs5032
Posts: 200
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:12 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:03 am

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 14):

Another interesting quote from Flightglobal regarding BA B.777's possible future....

In the interim, BA has taken six of eight 777-300ERs it has on order, which are "partly a hedge on late deliveries", and Williams says that one option could be to take more. "The problem is, is the next generation going to be so much more fuel efficient than 777-300ERs to make it worth waiting for? But I'm conscious of the fact that if you wait for something and it never turns up eventually you don't have any aircraft."

The problem with this, of course, is that they'll have to wait another 6/7 years minimum for delivery of A350/77X..and that's only if they order sooner, rather than later, as JFK said..

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18):
BA needs 20 77W's because if the sign for x 777-9 they will not arrive at LHR until 2018. BA's 744 fleet ,especially the 1989-1992 delivered ones, need to go to that retirement home in the desert of Arizona.

..after looking at their fleet, however, I don't think BA is in too bad a position here. A good number of their 744's (20) are less than 15 years old. They could definitely make these last until the end of the decade if they needed to, purchase another 10-12 77W's, and lease additional frames as needed during the time period to make ends meet. Although, there would be some uncertainty/risk associated with this, as we don't know how delays in the A350/77X programs might affect availability, and could screw up future fleet plans made in advance.

If BA do end up ordering more 77W, I could definitely see them as a possible launch customer for the 77X program, as it would be a sensible addition to what may become a fairly sizable fleet of 77W's in the mean time. A wide-body fleet of A380s, 77E/W/Xs, and 787s to go along with their A320 narrow body fleet would suit them nicely for the future, IMO. The 77-8X (or potential 787-10, for that matter) would make sense as well, as their numerous 77E's will need replacing around end-of-decade too.


Off topic, but on the narrow body side, I wonder if BA will consider the C-series for replacement of some of their older A319's in 8-10 years. The main reason I bring this up is that they could definitely see significant revenue benefits from plugging the CS100 on their LCY-JFK biz route (for which another airline has already ordered the -100), and the CS300 would compliment potential -100's well on the low capacity end of the fleet. Probably unlikely, as the A319neo IMO would be a perfectly fine choice, with plenty of fleet commonality benefit, but it's an alternative I think they should consider nonetheless..

[Edited 2012-06-07 19:12:03]

[Edited 2012-06-07 20:09:40]
 
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1605
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:17 am

BA doesn't have any 77Ls in the fleet. Surely, you were probably thinking about their 77Es?
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
davs5032
Posts: 200
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:12 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:13 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 21):

My mistake; good catch! (just keeping you on your toes)   
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3072
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:15 am

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
it will take delivery of its first A380s and 787s next year; although these were late, it was able to keep some of its 744s in service longer, an option it is not likely to have with the A350-1000/777X, which will enter service later this decade, when BA's 744 fleet will be a lot older. One of its deciding factors will be the level of certainty about deliveries.

The earliest 744's arfe being replaced by the A380's, in all likelihood, the later ones will be replaced at a similar age. By BA standards many are little over half way through their life. Don't panic !!!

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
The decision will be made by IAG on behalf of both IB and BA, but with BA (and presumably ) IB having a major input.

What a baffling statement, what is there to IAG other than BA and IB ? IAG comprises entirely of senioe executives who moved over from the respective airlines.
 
scouseflyer
Posts: 2165
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:02 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:14 am

I wonder if BA will be interested in the "quiet A380" that Airbus are pushing at the moment - the presentation specifically mentioned that it was so quiet that it could take off at night at LHR - could open up a load more slots for BA?
 
BA174
Posts: 290
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:55 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:40 am

G-BNLE, the oldest aircraft in BAs fleet has just came out of another heavy check so I doubt it will be retired first when the A380s come. Plus it has New First installed.
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:01 am

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 24):
I wonder if BA will be interested in the "quiet A380" that Airbus are pushing at the moment - the presentation specifically mentioned that it was so quiet that it could take off at night at LHR - could open up a load more slots for BA?

Mate it could run on banana peel, be 100% silent on take-off and shower the area in £20 notes as it takes off - the locals still wont wear it.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
ba319-131
Posts: 8132
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 1:27 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:12 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 26):

- And most of the local work either at the airport too!

We should all remember the airport was the first, individuals have moved close to be near the jobs , no justice.
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
f4f3a
Posts: 213
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:07 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:41 am

im surprised ba has only ordered 12 a380s considering the size of their 400 fleet.
I would think that a large 777 -300 / new gen would probaly get the best deal especially if they become a launch customer.

on the note of lgw operation i would have thought a BA express brand or using the bmi brand start a lcc to compete with easyjet . It would be a shame to loose ba as a choice for lgw.
 
sweair
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:47 am

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 27):
We should all remember the airport was the first, individuals have moved close to be near the jobs , no justice.

This does not matter, NIMBYs are important to win the election for any politician. Sad times we live in, so many people that should not have influence have too much influence.
 
sweair
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:32 pm

Would the 777-9X be interesting for BA? It would replace the 744 very close in capacity at a much lower fuel burn.

How many seats will it typically have? What do BAs current 744s have?
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:15 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 30):
Would the 777-9X be interesting for BA? It would replace the 744 very close in capacity at a much lower fuel burn.

How many seats will it typically have? What do BAs current 744s have?

Yes.

Its a straight fight between that and the A35J in my mind.

My gut says they'll take a load of A359s very shortly for a 2018+ EIS, but that this probably means very little for the A35J/779X square off.

BA are big enough to operate a subfleet of Airbus A350/380 and 787/777 as two families.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
scouseflyer
Posts: 2165
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:02 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:35 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 31):
BA are big enough to operate a subfleet of Airbus A350/380 and 787/777 as two families.

In about 2015, accross IAG they could easily end up with:

767 (on thier way out)
A330
787
A350
A340
777 (with 777X on the way)
747
A380

the royal flush of current and future wides 
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23074
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:26 pm

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 24):
I wonder if BA will be interested in the "quiet A380" that Airbus are pushing at the moment - the presentation specifically mentioned that it was so quiet that it could take off at night at LHR - could open up a load more slots for BA?
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 26):
Mate it could run on banana peel, be 100% silent on take-off and shower the area in £20 notes as it takes off - the locals still wont wear it.

There still is some positive PR to be had if they did operate such a fleet (which should be fine for missions to North America and Africa) by noting that their A380s are quieter than the competition's.

"British Airways Club World - Sleep Well In The Air and On The Ground".  
 
User avatar
AA777223
Posts: 976
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:12 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:43 pm

Quoting f4f3a (Reply 28):
I would think that a large 777 -300 / new gen would probaly get the best deal especially if they become a launch customer.

I would guess they wouldn't be "the" launch customer. They might be able to get in on the deal, but there are several large airlines expressing stron interest in a 77X (EK, CX and QANTAS even).
A318/19/20/21, A300, A332/3, A343/6, A388, L1011, DC-9, DC-10, MD-11, MD-80, B722, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9, B743/4/4M, B752/3, B762/3/4, B772/E/W, B788/9, F-100, CRJ-200/700/900, ERJ-135/145/175, DH-8, ATR-72, DO-328, BAE-146
 
sweair
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:04 pm

The 777-9X must be the best 744 replacement if you don't need to grow capacity? Qantas would probably take them if they were for sale now, but it is many years left until this model will fly, how long will they keep their 744s?
 
kaitak
Topic Author
Posts: 8942
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:15 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 23):
Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):The decision will be made by IAG on behalf of both IB and BA, but with BA (and presumably ) IB having a major input.

What a baffling statement, what is there to IAG other than BA and IB ? IAG comprises entirely of senioe executives who moved over from the respective airlines.

Just quoting (altough I added the IB bit) from the Flight article. I know you and most people here know IB and BA are under the IAG umbrella!

As for the A350-1000 -v- 777-9X competition, I think the 777-9X would have to have the upper hand in any competition between the two, where the target airline is already a 777 operator (and involved in the design stage with Boeing).
 
davs5032
Posts: 200
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:12 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 30):
Would the 777-9X be interesting for BA? It would replace the 744 very close in capacity at a much lower fuel burn.

How many seats will it typically have? What do BAs current 744s have?

I would think that both the 778 and -9X would be appealing for BA, as you've inferred. BA's current 744's seat 329 in four classes, while a different variant seats 291...the higher capacity version is probably better to use for comparison purposes. Their 77W's seat 297 in the same four class config. Depending on whether the -9X allows for 2 or 3 extra Y rows, I'd reckon they're 77-9X's would probably seat between 317-327. Either way, it would seem to be an ideal replacement for the 744's, capacity-wise.

FYI, assuming they add all Y in a hypothetical 77-8X, BA would likely be able to seat up to 70 more in four classes (299) and in three classes (342) than in their current 77E, so the -8X would seem to be a better replacement for their 77W's than for the 77E's.
 
davs5032
Posts: 200
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:12 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:41 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 36):
As for the A350-1000 -v- 777-9X competition, I think the 777-9X would have to have the upper hand in any competition between the two, where the target airline is already a 777 operator (and involved in the design stage with Boeing).

I agree with your reasoning. However, a more significant consideration is that BA is an airline already configuring their 77W with 10X seating. Therefore, for them, the 77X would compare favorably based on economics alone, which will likely be the most important factor in the decision.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3072
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:35 pm

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 38):
I agree with your reasoning. However, a more significant consideration is that BA is an airline already configuring their 77W with 10X seating. Therefore, for them, the 77X would compare favorably based on economics alone, which will likely be the most important factor in the decision.

BA 10X seating ? this has been gone for many years, then it was only three aircraft on the LGW beach fleet.
 
jumpjets
Posts: 1117
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:17 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:37 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 36):
As for the A350-1000 -v- 777-9X competition, I think the 777-9X would have to have the upper hand in any competition between the two, where the target airline is already a 777 operator (and involved in the design stage with Boeing).

With no 777s in their fleet and a recent order for A333s IB may beg to differ when making their pitch to IAG for a long haul replacement for their 346s - and it will be an IAG decision and not just a BA decision. So we may see both in the combined IAG 'fleet'.

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 38):
BA is an airline already configuring their 77W with 10X seating

Not quite sure what you mean by10X seating - but if you mean 10 abreast I think you'll find they have a nine abreast in economy in both 772s and 773s
 
AirbusA6
Posts: 1491
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:53 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:07 pm

BA is happily a 9Y 777 customer, so it is very relevant whether the proposed thinner cabin walls of the 779X would make enough space at 10Y for them. Especially as the much wider A380 is also 10Y.

I've previously read on this site that their 787s will be the wide seat 8Y layout, which is consistent with this

787 8Y
77W 9Y
A380 10Y

BA Reveal B787-836 Configuration To Staff. (by Speedmarque Nov 11 2008 in Civil Aviation)

I'm sure IB would want A359s, and the A3510 would be much easier for them to integrate than the 779 as an A346 replacement, whereas the opposite would be true for BA with it's large 777 fleet...
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
trex8
Posts: 4598
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:27 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 36):
As for the A350-1000 -v- 777-9X competition, I think the 777-9X would have to have the upper hand in any competition between the two, where the target airline is already a 777 operator (and involved in the design stage with Boeing).

Like QF with the 777??  
 
United Airline
Posts: 8768
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:15 am

How many options does BA have? I am sure BA will exercise them and will eventually order more A 380s. Maybe up to 30-50 even.
 
User avatar
Ncfc99
Posts: 779
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 2:42 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:15 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 18):
BA needs to step up to the plate and commit to 777-300ER's. BA needs 20 77W's because if the sign for x 777-9 they will not arrive at LHR until 2018. BA's 744 fleet ,especially the 1989-1992 delivered ones, need to go to that retirement home in the desert of Arizona.

As stated above, the 380 orders and options can take care of the 1989-1992 744's.

From 2018 onwards, BA will need to start taking delivery of new aircraft to replace a further 34 744's.

From 2020ish onwards, BA will need to start to take delivery of new aircraft to replace 40 772ER's.

Thats alot of metal to be replaced between 2018-2026. I see the 380 fleet increasing to 30ish frames, the 787 fleet increasing to 40-50 frames, half 8's, half 9's. That leaves about 30-40 frames to be replaced by the 350/77X family(not including growth). Whichever family BA goes for, I can see a split here aswell half 359/778, half 35J/779. This will result in BA able to taylor capacity to the correct route/season with great economy and accuracy.

IMHO, the 350 is the better option for BA. The 9Y seating on both the 77X/350 providing a more ecconomical solution in the 350's case. The 77X will be a competative plane on a CASM comparison, but only at 10Y. All IMHO of course.
 
dbo861
Posts: 860
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:20 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:49 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 36):
where the target airline is already a 777 operator (and involved in the design stage with Boeing).
Quoting trex8 (Reply 42):
Like QF with the 777??  

Not at all like QF. They aren't already a 777 operator.
 
jet72uk
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:14 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:13 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 10):

Ultimately, I think the LGW short haul operation is in its sunset days; they will move the best business routes to LCY (operated by E-170/190s) and gradually shut down the rest of them, leaving BE, FR and U2 to fight over the crumbs.

If they are the best business routes then why would they move them. Silly comment.
 
art
Posts: 2679
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:55 pm

Quoting f4f3a (Reply 28):
on the note of lgw operation i would have thought a BA express brand or using the bmi brand start a lcc to compete with easyjet .

I'm not sure that BA management and staff are capable of switching to thinking in an LCC way. Without embracing LCC philosophy and culture, you can run an LCC but you won't make a profit so why bother?
 
kaitak
Topic Author
Posts: 8942
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:06 pm

Quoting jet72uk (Reply 46):
If they are the best business routes then why would they move them. Silly comment.

No, it''s not. They want to keep the business custom and moving this closer to where these travellers want to go (i,.e. the City) makes sense; that way, they fly smaller aircraft with much fewer seats sold cheap, i.e. at a loss. With LGW, the acft are bigger and even though there may be some routes that have good Business loads (e.g. Jersey), they may not necessarily be profitable. Rather than come off the route altogether, better to operate it more efficiently, i.e. from City.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand - the 77Ws: presumably if BA were decide to go with the 777-9X, Boeing would be able to offer a kind of bridging deal, with 77Ws to be leased for a number of years until the 779s arrive and perhaps buying back some of the older 744s.

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 40):
With no 777s in their fleet and a recent order for A333s IB may beg to differ when making their pitch to IAG for a long haul replacement for their 346s - and it will be an IAG decision and not just a BA decision. So we may see both in the combined IAG 'fleet'.

Fair point, I had forgotten IB, but they might well see the 779 as an attractive proposition, too; true, they will want to have an Airbus element as well, but the A350-900 would probably satisfy that role. Personally, I think a far more urgent concern for IAG should be the quality of IB's long haul product; they can buy all the aircraft they like, but the dismal quality of the IB product (and their crews) really needs attention, if the IAG business plan is (as I assume?) to provide a seamless product between the two airlines. (Have a look at some of the IB reviews on Skytrax or other sites!)
 
jumpjets
Posts: 1117
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:17 pm

RE: More 77Ws For BA/Big Twin Decision

Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:50 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 48):
Fair point, I had forgotten IB

You may want to forget them but sadly for IAG they can't!

Quoting kaitak (Reply 48):
I think a far more urgent concern for IAG should be the quality of IB's long haul product; they can buy all the aircraft they like, but the dismal quality of the IB product (and their crews) really needs attention


I can't agree more - on a recent flight from LHR to HAV via MAD the MAD-HAV service was almost devoid of any service element- the cabin crew seemed to spend most of the flight reading magazines in the galley and only appeared to dish out [serve would be too sophisticated a term] the meals. A rather strange contrast to the short haul cabin crew from LHR-MAD who were cheerful and helpful.