spiritair97
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DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:42 am

It looks like Delta has put a daily a319 on DCA-JFK. Good to see some mainline service on the route from any airline!

flightaware.com/live/flight/dal2268
 
odysseus9001
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:17 am

Glancing at their schedule, looks like they upgauged a flight but cut the total number of flights. The 319 is an evening flight, which appears to feed major Western European routes. I remember the cuts from Enilria's weekly posting.

J
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:06 am

The 319 is on there now.

Looks like they are going from 5 flights to 2 as they continue to dismantle their domestic network from JFK.

Sad, but it repeats a pattern of build ups and pull downs of JFK that started in the late 90s.
 
catiii
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:09 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 2):
Looks like they are going from 5 flights to 2 as they continue to dismantle their domestic network from JFK.

Or could it have to do with the slot swap at DCA?
 
FSDan
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:33 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 2):
as they continue to dismantle their domestic network from JFK

DL recently added frequency to JFK-SFO and JFK-LAX. This summer they're adding AUS, MCI, MSY, MKE, DAY, SDF, JAX, CHS, GSO, and ELM. In the winter they're adding a second TPA flight and a RSW flight.

Quoting catiii (Reply 3):
Or could it have to do with the slot swap at DCA?

I'm sure that's part of it.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:39 am

Quoting FSDan (Reply 4):
Quoting catiii (Reply 3):
Or could it have to do with the slot swap at DCA?

I'm sure that's part of it.

This almost entirely has to do with the slot swap. DL had to reduce their flights at DCA. They aren't going to cut back in their core hubs. NYC O&D and domestic connections are flying DCA-LGA. DCA-JFK is meant to almost exclusively feed the international routes.
 
capitalflyer
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:40 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 3):

Or could it have to do with the slot swap at DCA?

Yup, it was the slot swap. DL gained some LGA slots from US in exchange for some DCA slots. Makes sense that they would upgauge to maximize their remaining slots.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:13 pm

"DL recently added frequency to JFK-SFO and JFK-LAX. This summer they're adding AUS, MCI, MSY, MKE, DAY, SDF, JAX, CHS, GSO, and ELM. In the winter they're adding a second TPA flight and a RSW flight."


I remember flying DL LGA-MCO on a HS trip to Disney in 1997. In the Sky magazine they talked about adding frequency to LAX from JFK.

If DL actually added frequency JFK to LAX every time they said they were going to without quietly pulling it down in the not so distant future, they would be up to 50 flights a day on the route.

As for the other adds, they have also gutted their whole regional feed schedule into JFK since the LGA slots came available. They are flat and more than likely down year over year at JFK.

And more importantly, they are way down on frequency to small and medium sized cities in the NE and Mid Atlantic which made JFK a connecting hub throughout the day.

They are back to their 90s mentality of 2 odd timed afternoon flights to feed the Euro bank, the rest O and D driven.

The much talked about JFK hub from a few years ago (with 4 or 5 flights throughout the day for connecting purposes) has quietly been axed in favor of 2 banks of flights for afternoon connections.

As for the list:

AUS Started and stopped before
MCI Started and stopped before
MSY Started and stopped before (several times I believe)
MKE Started and stopped before
DAY Not sure about this one
SDF Not sure about this one
JAX Started and stopped before
CHS Started and stopped before
GSO Started and stopped before
ELM This may have been flown with a Dash 8, or it may be new

"In the winter they're adding a second TPA flight and a RSW flight"
...and that will still put them well behind the freq and seats during the DL Express and Song days.They will be going up against B6 with 5 flights a day...they might as well be pissing into the wind.


Let's discuss the list in January and see what is still around at their favorite "build up" hub
 
lhcvg
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:07 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 5):
Quoting FSDan (Reply 4):
Quoting catiii (Reply 3):
Or could it have to do with the slot swap at DCA?

I'm sure that's part of it.

This almost entirely has to do with the slot swap. DL had to reduce their flights at DCA. They aren't going to cut back in their core hubs. NYC O&D and domestic connections are flying DCA-LGA. DCA-JFK is meant to almost exclusively feed the international routes.

Exactly. Let's be honest: the real demand to JFK (at least that DL wants to cater to) is the int'l service, specifically Europe, which peaks in the evening push. So really JFK can be served with one flight, or two if they want. Any more isn't really necessary.
 
catiii
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
I remember flying DL LGA-MCO on a HS trip to Disney in 1997. In the Sky magazine they talked about adding frequency to LAX from JFK.

Not sure I follow. The build up from 1997 to 2011 was significant in the JFK-SFO/LAX markets, going from little presence to 6x r/t per day at LAX and 4x r/t per day at SFO. They recently increased LAX to 8x r/t per day and SFO to 6x r/t per day. It doesn't change the fact that the DCA flight went mainline not a result of any buildup or drawdown at JFK but because they had fewer slots at DCA to deploy, which they have to now maximize.

Any network folks on here know if the 319 on the route is also an offshoot of opening a NYC 319/320 base?

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
and that will still put them well behind the freq and seats during the DL Express and Song days

Remind me again how successful and profitable those frequencies were hauling around low yield VFR/leisure traffic?  
 
delta2ual
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:27 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
I remember flying DL LGA-MCO on a HS trip to Disney in 1997. In the Sky magazine they talked about adding frequency to LAX from JFK.

If DL actually added frequency JFK to LAX every time they said they were going to without quietly pulling it down in the not so distant future, they would be up to 50 flights a day on the route.

What's your point? When I was in high school, Eastern was building a hub in MCI. Things change; if you work in the airline industry, you should understand this.
Since the merger, Anderson & co. have been pretty consistent with their plan for NYC (especially since the slot swap): LGA will be primarily for O&D and JFK domestic flights will feed the international. Forget about Song/DL Express (or Continental Lite/Shuttle by United/Ted). That's all irrelevant now; 9/11, BK's, and mergers tend to change plans.
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jfklganyc
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:56 pm

Whats the point?

The thread title makes it sound as if the route has been upgraded...it hasn't.

DL has been building up JFK for 15 years and every big build up has a slightly smaller pulldown.

Since the "hub" announcement 5 years ago, they really haven't pulled it down until they got the LGA slots.

And now, once again, JFK will have domestic flights that are primed for connections to intl flights in 2 banks in the afternoon.

So if you live next to the hub at JFK and you want to fly to DCA in the morning...you will have to drive up to LGA.

Things change...and so has DLs commitment to a full-fledged hub at JFK. It is back to an international hub again.

And that is why there's mainline on the DCA route again...they are going from 5 flights a day to 2...just like the 90s when there was an MD 88 on the route in the afternoon.

That's my point...and it's a pretty valid one
 
FSDan
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:08 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
Things change...and so has DLs commitment to a full-fledged hub at JFK. It is back to an international hub again.

It's a much bigger international hub than it was before though. There are only about 10 less total departures per day from JFK this summer compared to last summer. I would say that's not bad considering the amount of capacity that was added to LGA.

[Edited 2012-06-09 14:08:34]
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jfklganyc
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:00 pm

True. It is much bigger then it was a decade ago
 
andyinpit
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:17 pm

I worked it into DCA last night and just figured it was a diversion or something.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:13 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 3):

It is. IAD/BWI will still have 3-4 flights a day with BWI having 2 large RJs. (it just happens that Delta has a product down the road with sub 50% load factors going to DCA. Don't expect to see a ton of capacity on JFK-BOS flights ether. (or JFK-ORD))


But No one at Delta has ever said JFK will be more than what it is. some members are just making crap up. JFK is pretty much flat YOY in terms of flights and I believe up in terms of seats. Stuff that happened in 1997 has nothing to do with today. Some short haul RJ routes are going to but cut back for flights to places like LAX/SAT/AUS because they can't be flown to LGA. The point is to keep the feed of the short haul markets but flow the O/D into LGA.
It is amazing to me that anyone has a hard time figuring out that JFK-DCA would get cut back when the 15x shuttle to DCA is just right down the road. (but hey, its not our money to spend, They should fly all kinds of money losing flights just because)
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delta2ual
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
That's my point...and it's a pretty valid one

Not really. The OP was asking if DCA-JFK was now mainline. DL has had mainline before on that route (I've worked on the flight). Your rant about something you read in 1997 really isn't relevant to what DL (or any airline) is doing in 2012.
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flyguy1
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 12):
It's a much bigger international hub than it was before though. There are only about 10 less total departures per day from JFK this summer compared to last summer. I would say that's not bad considering the amount of capacity that was added to LGA.

Exactly, and some of those are the Intl flights that did not resume this summer (MAN,TXL,BUD). I would expect DL to only keep growing JFK (mostly international, but domestic adds/upgrades when needed) They seem to have 2 large international banks in the evening, plus all the morning stuff to the Caribbean/Mexico. That alone would require 3 flights per day from most large domestic cities-not to shabby.
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jfklganyc
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:29 pm

"Not really. The OP was asking if DCA-JFK was now mainline. DL has had mainline before on that route (I've worked on the flight). "

Yes...and it's mainline because they went from 5 flights to 2 a day.

It's not an upgrade for the route.

It's a downgrade for the route, as many of the short haul markets into the hub have been downgraded since the slot swap at LGA.

End of story, end of discussion
 
catiii
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:21 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 18):
It's not an upgrade for the route.

Putting aside the fact that this was never the OP's question, I'd rather fly on a 319 then on a CR9 any day of the week. So "upgrade" is in the eye of the beholder.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
Things change...and so has DLs commitment to a full-fledged hub at JFK. It is back to an international hub again.

No, what's changed is DL's commitment to a PROFITABLE hub. Having a "full-fledged" hub at the sake of profitability was not smart. Having a hub that maximizes its resources and it profitable is smart.

So to the OP, yes, DL mainline metal is back on DCA-JFK.

End of story, end of discussion.
 
panamair
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:56 am

Related point, JFK-BOS is now all-mainline for the summer - 5x daily (3x A319; 2x 738). I believe it was 6x daily last summer but most if not all CR7/CR9...
 
catiii
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:34 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 20):
Related point, JFK-BOS is now all-mainline for the summer - 5x daily (3x A319; 2x 738). I believe it was 6x daily last summer but most if not all CR7/CR9...

Good catch. I think this is another example of the fleet flexibility afforded to DL in the NYC market now that they have opened up a 319/320 crew base in NYC.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:13 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 19):

No, what's changed is DL's commitment to a PROFITABLE hub. Having a "full-fledged" hub at the sake of profitability was not smart. Having a hub that maximizes its resources and it profitable is smart.

The thing is they still have a true hub. DCA is the only market I can think of that has really been cut back. Most of the short haul flights are still about the same.

I do however think Delta does need to add the 1x CRJ back to JFK-ALB. Makes ti kind of tough to fly TATL on Delta without back tracking to Atlanta or dealing with two airports in New York.
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JBAirwaysFan
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:52 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
AUS Started and stopped before
MCI Started and stopped before
MSY Started and stopped before (several times I believe)
MKE Started and stopped before
DAY Not sure about this one
SDF Not sure about this one
JAX Started and stopped before
CHS Started and stopped before
GSO Started and stopped before
ELM This may have been flown with a Dash 8, or it may be new

JAX is served via LGA on Delta (soon to be a 3:1 ratio mainline to RJ), JFK via B6 3x daily, and EWR via UA. I'm sure DL is just giving B6 a little extra run for their money, but each carrier with a huge NYC domestic hub serves JAX (DL, B6, and UA).

DL's JFK service probably isn't even necessary since they can compete equally with B6 via their LGA service. UA probably competes to a lesser extent since EWR is usually overlooked by many when traveling to the NY Metro (JFK and LGA are more accessible to Long Islanders like me).
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panamair
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 23):

DL's JFK service probably isn't even necessary since they can compete equally with B6 via their LGA service.

JFK is for international connections. Remember that Delta has pulled quite a bit of transatlantic flying from ATL (SVO, PRG, CPH, ATH, TLV, have all been suspended from ATL), and these are now only available from JFK. All these new domestic adds to JFK will continue to make some of these European/Middle East destinations available as one-stops, instead of two stops. Also, JFK has a slew of unique international destinations such as SNN, NCE, PSA, AGP, VLC, ARN, KEF, DKR, which can be reached with one instead of two stops with these new feeder routes...
 
flyguy1
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:07 pm

Kinda under the radar, but BDL-JFK is back also.
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catiii
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RE: DAL Mainline Metal Back On DCA-JFK?

Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:28 pm

Quoting flyguy1 (Reply 25):
Kinda under the radar, but BDL-JFK is back also.

Remember when they used to send the idle ERs from JFK to BDL, PHL, etc in the late 90s to get some utilization out of them? I remember sitting in BizElite to PHL. Beat the Acela.