LH422
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Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:21 pm

I didn't see this posted yet:

http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...s-up-order-for-100-airbus-a320neo/

Quite an increase in capacity for DY. I wonder which new routes we'll see from 2015 on?
 
SASMD82
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:57 pm

As an Airbus fan I have some hesitations about this order. Isn't Norwegian 10 years late with responding to the low cost hype?

- Even though the Nordic countries have relatively seen the most air routes at least in Europe, can the number of ordered airplanes really be deployed? The Nordics have around 20 mln inhabitants. They also have some dozen 737s on order.....
- With the economic downturn in the EU and the moderate growth in Norway, is it wise to expand that fast?
- With EZY, Ryanair and Air Berlin on the market, will they have any chance? Also FlyBe Nordic has entered the market too.
- What about SAS?
 
kl911
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 1):
Even though the Nordic countries have relatively seen the most air routes at least in Europe, can the number of ordered airplanes really be deployed? The Nordics have around 20 mln inhabitants. They also have some dozen 737s on order.....

They can, and most likely will, open up bases and routes all over Europe. And a large number of planes is needed anyway for feeding the 787 lowcost longhaul fleet.
 
sweair
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:44 pm

Norwegian has taken a good chunk out of SAS, so I expect them to expand being a leaner operation than our sad governmental joke of an air line.

They will replace planes about 7 years between, its not like they will fly 200 at the same time.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:00 pm

Even with replacement, Norweigian has orders for 4 times its current fleet. That's massive expansion. I am still amazed at the expansion that they are planning, but as Ryanair and Easyjet have cut back expansion plans, I guess there is still opportunity for NAS. There's no need for 200 airplanes flying around Scandinavia, so you have to wonder where they are going to go.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
chiad
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:36 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 4):
There's no need for 200 airplanes flying around Scandinavia, so you have to wonder where they are going to go.

It's of course a risk, but I think they will succeed because of several reasons:

* Hubs in "all" over Europe.
* Routes way beyond Europe
* Norway's strong financial state
* Weak main competitor (SAS)
* Deliveries of NEO and MAX will span a decade, later frames maybe replacing earlier ones.

And if Norwegian's plan fails NEO and MAX frames and production slots will be highly lucrative
 
sweair
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:16 pm

I think Norwegian will replace SAS for Scandinavian aviation in 10 years. I know both the Norwegian and Swedish government is fed up with the losses by SAS. Only Denmark wants to keep paying more into that black hole.

Go Norwegian Go!  
 
CXfirst
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:20 am

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 1):
They also have some dozen 737s on order.....

A lot more than some dozen.

75 737-800's on order, 100 737Max + 100 options, and now 100 A320neo + 50 options.

There is still plenty of room for growth. Soon, they'll retire the 737-300's (haven't so far, as they've needed that capacity), and the later 737-800's and the 737Max + A320neo's will be used to replace earlier 737-800's.

Although, I do think they'll try to grow in the Eastern European markets with the A320neo's. With the new aircraft type, they can easily create new pilot contracts, where pilots earn quite a bit less than 737 pilots. So, that lowers costs in an already low cost market (that is if they do what I think).

Norwegian's plans are ambitious, and I hope they do well. With enough low cost feeding traffic, they're intercontinental operation could also prove very successful.

-CXfirst
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:20 am

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 1):
As an Airbus fan I have some hesitations about this order.
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 4):
Even with replacement, Norweigian has orders for 4 times its current fleet.

I wouldn't be too worried. According to a source, the NEO's won't actually be flying for DY. Sorry, can't say more than that till they publically anounce their plans.  


Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:48 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 6):
I think Norwegian will replace SAS for Scandinavian aviation in 10 years.

I hope not, connecting with Norwegian is a PITA, they don't have the route network that comes close to SAS (in conjunction with Star) their FFP is crap, no lounges, and they keep on losing my baggage, in the last 10 domestic flights with Norwegian they've lost my baggage 3 times, I only fly to Oslo return.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:59 am

Again, how is Norwegian funding these aircraft?
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oldeuropean
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:19 am

Quoting kl911 (Reply 2):
They can, and most likely will, open up bases and routes all over Europe.

Norway is no EU member. I doubt that they can easily open up bases all over Europe.
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
g2scandinavia
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:02 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
I hope not, connecting with Norwegian is a PITA, they don't have the route network that comes close to SAS (in conjunction with Star) their FFP is crap, no lounges, and they keep on losing my baggage, in the last 10 domestic flights with Norwegian they've lost my baggage 3 times, I only fly to Oslo return.

Lost your luggage trice? Norwegians luggage performance are actually better than SAS due to more point to point flights.
That being said, I have no doubt that lost luggage occurs on DY flights, but I would really like to see some evidence of your luggage being lost trice within 10 domestic flights!

I would therefore really like to know your definition of LOST luggage?

I will also strongly recommend you to look into Norwegians business model. They defines themselves as a LCC with a network and fleet adapted to their business model. Judging their Frequent Flyer Program and lack of Lounges as crap is just ridiculous as they do not have such and does not intend to acquire any. FFP are still banned within Norway and they Cash rewards aren't marketed as a FFP program.
 
speedygonzales
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:09 am

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 11):
Norway is no EU member. I doubt that they can easily open up bases all over Europe.

They can. Norway is part of the European Common Aviation Area, which is also why e.g. DOT LT can operate domestic Norwegian flights.
Las Malvinas son Argentinas
 
Someone83
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:21 am

Quoting g2scandinavia (Reply 12):
Judging their Frequent Flyer Program and lack of Lounges as crap is just ridiculous as they do not have such and does not intend to acquire any. FFP are still banned within Norway and they Cash rewards aren't marketed as a FFP program.

That is why it crap: they don't have any!
 
vegetables2001
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:27 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
I hope not, connecting with Norwegian is a PITA, they don't have the route network that comes close to SAS (in conjunction with Star) their FFP is crap, no lounges, and they keep on losing my baggage, in the last 10 domestic flights with Norwegian they've lost my baggage 3 times, I only fly to Oslo return.

95% of people who pay for their own flights don't give a rats ass about all these ridiculous extras, so why offer them?

Norwegian make a profit, there are plenty of loss making moribund airlines that do offer all this rubbish, why not fly on them?
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BestWestern
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:39 am

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 15):
Norwegian make a profit

I'm sorry, but thats horse manure. Norwegian are loss making

FEB

Bjorn Kjos, chief executive, said that the fall in profits – which was partly due to a 32 per cent rise in average fuel prices – was nothing to be alarmed about.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5587f51a-5896-11e1-9f28-00144feabdc0.html



APR

Norwegian Air Shuttle (DY) reported a first-quarter net loss of $49.8 million.

http://atwonline.com/airline-finance...posts-1q-net-loss-498-million-0426

I ask my question again - Like Lion air, How are they funding all these aircraft?


Norwegian capital capitalisation 2.3bn NOK
Order List Price 127bn NOK

[Edited 2012-06-09 01:44:42]
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
sweair
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:55 am

Norwegians loss wont be added to my tax bill, SAS loss will, why should I cheer SAS losses? I would rather build more schools or high ways than keep SAS alive, is that strange?
 
g2scandinavia
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:58 am

Quoting someone83 (Reply 14):
That is why it crap: they don't have any!

Well few people refers to Elkem as crap because they do not produce aluminium car frames, but just the raw materials?
Judging a product for not being what it never intended to be, is an ignorance not worth discussing further!
 
g2scandinavia
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:08 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 16):
I'm sorry, but that's horse manure. Norwegian are loss making

All operators based in the north of Europe are faced with significant losses because of very challenging weather conditions during October to April. Especially Q1 is a month where no airline delivers profit in Scandinavia. I think few really realises the complexity of airline operations up here in the winter time.

However for the year end, Norwegian has been profitable for both 2010 and 2011.

But I do agree with you, It's a very risky game they are entering!
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:34 am

Quoting g2scandinavia (Reply 12):
Lost your luggage trice? Norwegians luggage performance are actually better than SAS due to more point to point flights.
That being said, I have no doubt that lost luggage occurs on DY flights, but I would really like to see some evidence of your luggage being lost trice within 10 domestic flights!

I would therefore really like to know your definition of LOST luggage?

My flights on DY are all between Molde and Olso, so far DY have lost (as in it never turned up) my luggage 1 and the other two times the luggage arrived the next day, all three times it was from Molde to Oslo, I find this ridiculous because DY don't serve any destinations other than Oslo from Molde. SK (and Star partners) have only lost my luggage twice in over 400 flights, both times it arrived the following day.

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 15):

95% of people who pay for their own flights don't give a rats ass about all these ridiculous extras, so why offer them?

I don't have to pay for my flights, I like the lounges as I tend to spend a couple of hours in Oslo before I get a connecting flight, sitting in a lounge is far more enjoyable than wandering around the airport of sitting at a gate.

What I do like about DY is the staff, on average they are significantly younger and more enthusiastic than those flying for SK, I find a lot of the SK cabin crew old, tired and no longer interested in providing decent service.
 
chuchoteur
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:49 pm

slightly off topic but:

Does anybody who maybe works at norwegian know the correct web address to order norwegian branded things?
 
chiad
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:45 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 16):
I'm sorry, but thats horse manure. Norwegian are loss making

Oh .. you're wrong.
Norwegian have made profits for the last 5 years.
It's only this first quarter of 2012 that has been a loss. But then again it seems like "every" airline on the planet have been struggling this quarter.
Passenger carried has been rising steadily while load factor rests on 80.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:50 pm

How can a company with a market cap of 2.3bn buy something worth 127bn?

What was the total profit of Norwegian over the last five years? How many aircraft does that pay for?
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
sweair
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:55 pm

How can SAS buy new planes? Never shown profit for at least 5 years..
 
Someone83
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting g2scandinavia,reply=:


Well few people refers to Elkem as crap because they do not produce aluminium car frames, but just the raw materials?
Judging a product for not being what it never intended to be, is an ignorance not worth discussing further!

uh-hum, that was quite below the belt line......got a new employer since I hit a nerve?  

First of all: Norwegian is in the airline business, and they have a sort of frequent flyer program in the Norwegian Reward. My personal opinion is that this is worthless for frequent flyers, although you might disagree. Not what they do in the air, all though I always found their crew rather lazy, but that they ground service is not good enough for frequent flyers. Lounges is one thing, but not portanr, but their lack of fast track, internet/mobile check in and customer treatment. And this is why I avoid them when possible

But you know I'm always willing to discus this over a beer  

Norwegian tries to get the frequent business travellers, but so far they haven't done a good enough job convincing me


You might know more about this than me, but last time I checked Elkem doesn't produce aluminium, and neither do I see the relevance in this case?
 
Someone83
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:46 pm

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 8):


I wouldn't be too worried. According to a source, the NEO's won't actually be flying for DY. Sorry, can't say more than that till they publically anounce their plans.  


Regards,

Hamlet69

I think many persons here should pay attention to your post  

Who says these will be flying for Norwegian

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 23):

How can a company with a market cap of 2.3bn buy something worth 127bn?

What was the total profit of Norwegian over the last five years? How many aircraft does that pay for?


Does God get peeved if you dont use a capital 'g' ?

This is irrelevant....even before you brought in religion. Never underestimat what you're able to finance
 
BestWestern
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:21 am

Quoting someone83 (Reply 26):

Market capitalisation is irrelevant?

I keep forgetting that fiscal reality doesn't matter in Norway. Except in Greece the bill has to be paid at the end of the day.

Quoting sweair (Reply 24):

Perhaps answer my question with a question?

Sweair, how many aircraft does SK have on order?
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
Someone83
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:25 am

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 8):


I wouldn't be too worried. According to a source, the NEO's won't actually be flying for DY. Sorry, can't say more than that till they publically anounce their plans.  


Regards,

Hamlet69

I think many persons here should pay attention to your post  

Who says these will be flying for Norwegian

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 23):

How can a company with a market cap of 2.3bn buy something worth 127bn?

What was the total profit of Norwegian over the last five years? How many aircraft does that pay for?


Does God get peeved if you dont use a capital 'g' ?

This is irrelevant....even before you brought in religion. Never underestimat what you're able to finance
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:27 am

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 8):
I wouldn't be too worried. According to a source, the NEO's won't actually be flying for DY. Sorry, can't say more than that till they publically anounce their plans.

Hmmm... There were some discussions in another thread about Finnair cooperating with Norwegian...

Cheers!   
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Asiaflyer
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:27 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 23):
How can a company with a market cap of 2.3bn buy something worth 127bn?

What was the total profit of Norwegian over the last five years? How many aircraft does that pay for?

Market cap is not relevant. As long as you have cash-flow to pay for the expenses, there is no real problem. Few airlines chokes up all money from own pockets for aircraft purchase. There is normally a bank or leasing company involved. Aircrafts are not too difficult to finance as it is good collateral itself.
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scbriml
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:35 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 23):
How can a company with a market cap of 2.3bn buy something worth 127bn?

What was the total profit of Norwegian over the last five years? How many aircraft does that pay for?

Seriously?

The same way that I'm able to buy a house - I can just about muster 10% of the purchase price from my savings, the rest I borrow and pay back from my cashflow. Doesn't any airline do exactly the same thing when buying planes? You don't think EK pays for all their planes from cash on hand, do you?

Another popular alternative for airlines is to buy the plane from the OEM, then sell it to a leasing company and lease the same frame back.

It's pretty straightforward.
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UALWN
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:36 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 27):
Market capitalisation is irrelevant?

Mostly. AA's market capitalization must be right now very close to zilch, yet they have some 400 outstanding aircraft orders.
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sweair
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:11 pm

They will takes these frames over 10 years or more, like others posted, just putting a small amount of their own cash into them. They wont pay all that upfront. And the leasing firms handle most of the sums anyway.

SS has plans to buy some 50 new frames, they are even worse off financially, nobody doubts them, why is that? The endless deep taxpayer pocket?
 
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HELyes
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:14 pm

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 29):
Hmmm... There were some discussions in another thread about Finnair cooperating with Norwegian...

Yes Finnair is looking for a partner to operate their European flights, AY and DY have been dating already before but nothing has come out. But who knows, AY even own a small slice of DY.
 
sweair
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:21 pm

Norwegian bought Fly Nordic that was owned by AY?
 
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HELyes
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:21 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 35):
Norwegian bought Fly Nordic that was owned by AY?

Yes thats how AY and DY "met", since that they have been in talks for co-operation but no success so far.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting someone83 (Reply 26):
I think many persons here should pay attention to your post

Who says these will be flying for Norweg

That's a bummer I much prefer the A320 to the 737, mainly because it's easier to look out the window.
 
LN-KGL
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:00 pm

Look like a lot of hot and high departures here today.

As I see it, the A320neos can have two functions:
1. To safeguard access to new airframes if the B738MAX becomes B738lateMAX.
2. Airframes for joint ventures at the Asian and American ends of the intercontinental network to secure feed.

For Boeing to avoid embarrassing themselves, they need to deliver the goods on time - and the MAX need to be MAX not an overweight max. What will happen to the A320neos if Boeing manage deliver the MAX? We may well see some sort of American Air Shuttle and Thai Air Shuttle with local investors (according to local regulations) and they will use these A320neos from JFK and BKK. Am I right Hamlet69? Could it be existing US and Asian airlines that can be a joint venture partners?
 
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Polot
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting LN-KGL (Reply 38):
We may well see some sort of American Air Shuttle and Thai Air Shuttle with local investors (according to local regulations) and they will use these A320neos from JFK and BKK. Am I right Hamlet69? Could it be existing US and Asian airlines that can be a joint venture partners?

It would be far easier, not to mention much less risky, to just partner with a current American/Asian airline than attempt to create their own. My guess based on his comment would be they (the Neos) will still be based in Europe, but not operating under the Norwegian brand name.
 
LN-KGL
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:32 pm

Quoting poLot (Reply 39):
It would be far easier, not to mention much less risky, to just partner with a current American/Asian airline than attempt to create their own. My guess based on his comment would be they (the Neos) will still be based in Europe, but not operating under the Norwegian brand name.

I don't think we can expect any answer from Hamlet69, either confirming or denying this. One thing is for sure, many surprises can be expected the coming years.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:59 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
Again, how is Norwegian funding these aircraft?

For the 1000 th time ...

Foreign investmentbanks both in Europe and USA. The aircraftmanufacturaes themselves and Norwegian Air Shuttle. Just like most other airlines ...
 
lukeyboy95
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:28 am

Norwegian might be in a good place to capitalise on an airbridge from Russia and onward into various European destinations. PAX still seem to pay a premium in this market.

Other close proximity airlines have been putting feelers into Russia because of geographic advantage,. - Aerosvit/ Air Baltic.

And it was commented that even some Finnish FR routes attract many Russian pax.
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g2scandinavia
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:41 am

What kind of rellevance does Russia have here? Norwegian does not serve the Russian market except of two weekly to LED?
 
sweair
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:36 am

Yeah going forward Norwegian has a lot of tricks up its sleeve, its a very flexible operation, very modern structure. I think they will out last SAS for sure, not weighted down by unions and political crap.
 
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Polot
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:58 pm

Quoting g2scandinavia (Reply 43):
What kind of rellevance does Russia have here? Norwegian does not serve the Russian market except of two weekly to LED?

He was suggesting that Norwegian might be interested in expanding into Russia.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:58 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 3):
They will replace planes about 7 years between, its not like they will fly 200 at the same time.

Yes they will. Around 2020 Mr. Bjørn Kjos has stated that there will be around 220 Norwegian aircraft in the air  
 
eaa3
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:14 pm

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 8):
I wouldn't be too worried. According to a source, the NEO's won't actually be flying for DY. Sorry, can't say more than that till they publically anounce their plans.

I wanted to share my idea about what I think Norwegian is going to do with their A320NEO's. Keep in mind that I am simply talking without any knowledge of this.

I think that they are going to set up base in Keflavik, Iceland and deploy them on the North-Atlantic in a LCC hub-and-spoke type of system where they will be able to serve perhaps 40 destinations in North America and 60 destinations in Europe. With an A320 you can make a lot of destinations work that don't work with a B767 or bigger (or even a B757). This would be the first true low cost carrier on the North-Atlantic that could make life difficult for the established carriers. They might even merge with or buy Icelandair.

Like I said this is just random speculation.

Here is the basic idea given assuming that the A320NEO can fly 3200nm on a daily basis. The highlighted area is 3200nm from KEF:


[Edited 2012-06-11 14:20:04]
 
sweair
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:25 pm

Cool idea   You never know with those Norwegians  
 
LN-KGL
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RE: Norwegian Firms Up 100 A320neo Order

Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:53 pm

But what about their B788s then eaa3?