Gonzalo
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Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:56 pm

Mr. Brian Pearce, Chief Economist of the International Air Transport Association, was pessimistic about the industry's prospects in Europe.


"I think there is a serious risk to the financial viability of some airlines," he said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...-warns-economist-Brian-Pearce.html

The Malev case is just an example according to Mr. Pearce, and he predicts that even some flag carriers could be in danger, but he did'n mention any specific airline.

Your thoughts ?

G.
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sweair
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:11 pm

SAS..Even before this crisis they were in the deep red. Many still hope for LH to buy them I guess.
 
lhcvg
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 1):
SAS..Even before this crisis they were in the deep red. Many still hope for LH to buy them I guess.

Were there ever any developments on that front? Last I heard it was mere speculation around here, but I wasn't clear if any action has taken place.
 
ORDJOE
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:43 pm

I love how he ripped those dam taxes like the APD and other PFC's, it is getting out of hand. I think the smaller legacies of eastern Europe like CSA and the like are in serious danger, didn't LOT need a big cash injection from TK.

Tough to say, Europe is on the brink now much the way the global financial system was on the brink 3 years ago, whether they fall off the cliff or recover is anyones guess. My thought is things are going to get a bit worse before they get better,
 
LJ
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:57 pm

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 3):
didn't LOT need a big cash injection from TK.

LOT is/was privatised. TK won't be one of the investors (they're not interested anymore).
 
Gonzalo
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:03 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 2):
Were there ever any developments on that front? Last I heard it was mere speculation around here, but I wasn't clear if any action has taken place.

I didn't hear anything either, but the steps of DY could be a sign of the hard times ahead for SAS, and certainly a weak market in Europe does not help.

G.
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LAXintl
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:43 pm

  

Survival of the fittest

The European airline scene has too many players, too much capacity, plus there are many carriers that suffer under unrealistic cost base much due to uncompetitive labor burden.

Its will be healthy to see the weak shrink, merge, or perish.

The airline industry is a global market place, and like the blood letting in the US industry, the European airline scene including the majors need to go through the pain to adjust to the modern day macro-economic realities of the industry.

My only fear is that national politics will continue to get in the way of the needed house cleaning at these enterprises.
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lhcvg
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
My only fear is that national politics will continue to get in the way of the needed house cleaning at these enterprises

Indeed so! I'm starting to think that the likes of OS, SK, TP, etc. will have to depend on larger group ownership in order to survive. Even OS has troubles, but I do think we'll see more of these carriers get absorbed into the LH, IAG, AF/KL folds.
 
LOWS
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:57 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 1):
SAS..Even before this crisis they were in the deep red. Many still hope for LH to buy them I guess.

LH can't afford to buy SAS too. They need to get their act together.


[quote=LHCVG,reply=7Even OS has troubles
[/quote]

LH Group needs to start consolidating OS into LH group on the administrative side.
 
lhcvg
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:19 pm

Quoting LOWS (Reply 8):
LH Group needs to start consolidating OS into LH group on the administrative side.

Agreed! That will certainly generate additional savings yet to be realized under the current arrangement.
 
TeamintheSky
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:08 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if AZ was to be rolled into AF/KL sooner than later. However, not sure if that would actually make put the airline in better or worse shape....
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JU068
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:30 pm

On top of this the European Commission had launched an official investigation into government subsidies given to some airlines (and airports). Apparently the countries in question are France, Germany, Austria and a few others.
Fun times ahead... not.
 
bennett123
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:50 pm

Given the more general issues faced by Greece, how about OA?.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:15 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 4):
Quoting ordjoe (Reply 3):
didn't LOT need a big cash injection from TK.

LOT is/was privatised.

Not yet. Nobody has shown much interest in investing in LOT. The most serious candidate was TK which was considering taking a stake but they just announced a few days ago that they're no longer interested.
http://atwonline.com/airline-finance...ot-invest-lot-polish-airlines-0604
 
Gonzalo
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 12):
Given the more general issues faced by Greece, how about OA?.

OA is a private company since the end of 2009. Maybe they could be in trouble due to the lack of passengers ( the tourists not going to Greece and that ), but at least they don't rely in the ( broken ) state for cash.
I think IB could be in a similar situation if the Spanish crisis doesn't end "soon", a 22 % of unemployment is not a very good sign for the market, and the AZ situation could be bad also if this Euro crisis last for too long..

Rgds.

G.
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Byrdluvs747
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:29 pm



Quoting LJ (Reply 4):
LOT is/was privatised. TK won't be one of the investors (they're not interested anymore).

IAG was mentioned earlier as being interested. This isn't good for LH/*A. With the TK deal in ashes, this will force LH into making an offer or possibly face losing LOT to another alliance.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 10):
I wouldn't be surprised if AZ was to be rolled into AF/KL sooner than later.

Doubtful, AF isn't having an easy time in this recession either.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 12):
Given the more general issues faced by Greece, how about OA?.

I personally would like to see OA rolled into OW. If either Greek carrier has to fail, I would rather it be A3.

[Edited 2012-06-11 14:38:19]
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Gonzalo
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:29 pm

Another link, but the same dark clouds ahead :

http://atwonline.com/airline-finance...-doubles-next-months-critical-0611

"European carriers are expected to report combined losses of $1.1 billion for the year, almost double the previous forecast of a $600 million loss, according to IATA. The next months will be critical ."      
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PHX787
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:46 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Survival of the fittest

This is why the whole Bailout thing is killing ME. If they start bailing out the airlines, I think the whole Eurozone system would collapse.

Either way, I see AF/KL and IAG being the only two that survive without serious issues, albeit I think IB is really going to bring down the revenue for IAG. We already saw Malev go under, remember.
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Ferroviarius
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:48 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 1):
SAS..Even before this crisis they were in the deep red. Many still hope for LH to buy them I guess.

There is one thing, which gives hope for SAS. The Norwegian government lets taxpayers pay an incredibly high price to keep some farmers in the province alive. It's outrageous, the largest part of Oslo, Bergen, Stavanger citizens' tax goes to subsidize what they call "Distrikten". AND when there are elections, the ballots cast by those living a luxury life every day with fresh water and air and no traffic jams count considerably more than those by Oslo, Bergen, Stavanger citizens.

Among the many advantages, which the province is granted, are local airports, which economically are totally unviable. The Norwegian government pays airlines - i.e. chiefly SAS - to provide connections to these airports. If SAS would die, there would be a considerable problem.

This also might be one of the reasons, why the Norwegian government seemingly is un-interested in a high speed rail link between Stockholm and Oslo. While technically feasible without the slightest problems - it actually had existed years ago as "Lynx" and was killed despite economically viable - this would take most SAS customers from OSL-ARN, and it is them who pay for things like Harstad Narvik, Kirkenes, and I do not know what air fields out in the "Distrikt".

This said and completely independent of this, I am frequently using SAS on my own and am very satisfied with them!

Best wishes,
Ferroviarius
 
SASDC8
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:23 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 1):
SAS..Even before this crisis they were in the deep red. Many still hope for LH to buy them I guess


Sorry but I don't see your point here? SK is in the red yes, but they are only to a smaller degree hit by the euro-zone crisis. Chiefly because they fly people from countries (Norway, Sweden and Denmark) that are not directly involved in the crisis.

I would be more worried about carriers located in the parts of Europe that is really affected by the crisis.
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aeroblogger
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:26 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 15):
I personally would like to see OA rolled into OW. If either Greek carrier has to fail, I would rather it be A3.

Why?? A3 is in better financial health...
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Tobias2702
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:51 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 15):

Quoting LJ (Reply 4):
LOT is/was privatised. TK won't be one of the investors (they're not interested anymore).

IAG was mentioned earlier as being interested. This isn't good for LH/*A. With the TK deal in ashes, this will force LH into making an offer or possibly face losing LOT to another alliance.

Why would troubled IAG invest in an airline TK (which is quite well performing) is not interested in? And does LH really care about the fate of LOT, rather than getting their own act together? I mean, LOT isn't that important for Star Alliance anyway, are they?
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leftyboarder
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:57 pm

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 21):
Why would troubled IAG invest in an airline TK (which is quite well performing) is not interested in? And does LH really care about the fate of LOT, rather than getting their own act together? I mean, LOT isn't that important for Star Alliance anyway, are they?

TK gave up on LO because the lawyers tried hard (according to TK CEO) to find a loophole in EU law that allows TK majority ownership of LO, but they couldn't. Without majority control, such an investment a la B&H Airlines isn't attractive. IAG doesn't face the same restrictions since it is an EU company.
 
EricR
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:58 pm

For as much criticism as U.S. based airlines receive from a service perspective, airlines in Europe will start to look more and more like their U.S. counterparts. Frills such as food service on short duration flights, free alcohol, etc. need to be eliminated in an effort to save costs and stay financially competitive.

There is a lot of fat that needs to be cut out of these European carriers and the ones who survive are those who address these costs sooner rather than later.
 
sweair
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:00 pm

Sorry but I just think the bailout 2008 was enough, SAS should fix its problems or go under. Taxpayers should not have to bail them out every now and then. Make it work or go bust, this is not Soviet Union.
 
Ferroviarius
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:31 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 24):
Sorry but I just think the bailout 2008 was enough, SAS should fix its problems or go under. Taxpayers should not have to bail them out every now and then. Make it work or go bust, this is not Soviet Union.

Indeed, a political question. But as long as the Norwegian Government - and its electorate - insist on having cheap flights to small airports in the province, which economically are totally un-viable, the only way to pay for that is using tax money. Interestingly, as many will not be aware of, offering any Bonusprograms on flights within Norway is forbidden byNorwegian law. This makes it impossible for, e.g., SAS to use its huge Star Alliance Bonus concept to outclass carriers like "Norwegian". Years ago, SAS managed to kill Color Air by means of their EuroBonus program, and Braathens became a part of SAS more or less enforced by the government.
Also, as claims a government web page, the average flight ticket price is considerably lower now, with the Bonus programs paralyzed in Norway, than when they were still active.

That's what I am a little bit, let's say, "astonished" about in this country, that the majority of the tax payers seems to be willing to pay awful amounts of tax money to keep the province alive, which otherwise simply would become widerness witin a decade or so. I am probably one of very few persons living here, who really would not care. It's culturless wilderness anyway, whether or not some thousands are living out there.


Best wishes,

Ferroviarius
 
vv701
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 7):
Indeed so! I'm starting to think that the likes of OS, SK, TP, etc. will have to depend on larger group ownership in order to survive. Even OS has troubles, but I do think we'll see more of these carriers get absorbed into the LH, IAG, AF/KL folds.

My opinion is that IAG will not be absorbing any other airlines for the next few years. BA needs to successfully absorb BD first. And the prospects for IB in the current Spanish economic situation are presently looking poor, slowing the IB recovery.

My opinion is that Lufthansa Group will focus on consolidating the various disparate group members to reduce costs over the next couple of years and will not be looking to buy any other airlines during that consolidation period. It does not want a second, poor performing BD that has already cost it dear.

My opinion is that AF/KL will focus on returning AF to profit over the next two or three years rather than using valuable assets to buy out ailing airlines whose losses will further hit the AF/KL bottom line.

If Mr Pearce of IATA is right - and I think he might well be - then I think that Air Berlin, AF/KL, easyJet, IAG, Lufthansa Group, Norwegian Air Shuttle and Ryanair will sit back, watch and then scoop up any attractive business that becomes freely available as other airlines fail and disapear.

Why pay for something of which the best parts will be available free a few months later? Then you do not have to take on the bad parts. So if you buy a failed airline in the current situation you are effectively paying out for the rotten parts, sending good money after bad. Better to sit back, wait, and pick up any juicy morsels free of charge.

I do not think that the IAG / BA / BD situation will occur elsewhere in the next few years. It was unique because of the LHR slot situation and the British government's refusal to allow that to be addressed in an alternative, positive, business expansion way. (All other major European hubs have already seen expansion to meet current and future demand.)
 
sweair
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:46 pm

SAS problem is they missed the part when they lost the monopoly on air travel. And still the Danish unions mess around thinking its 1982..

I don't think SAS will survive, as the governments will have enough soon. If Norway wants to fund SAS then they will get an offer for the Swedish shares I am sure. The current Swedish government is so tight they rather let people starve than waste any funds on anything.
 
odafz
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:41 am

Quoting Ferroviarius (Reply 25):
That's what I am a little bit, let's say, "astonished" about in this country, that the majority of the tax payers seems to be willing to pay awful amounts of tax money to keep the province alive, which otherwise simply would become widerness witin a decade or so. I am probably one of very few persons living here, who really would not care. It's culturless wilderness anyway, whether or not some thousands are living out there.

You are turning this post into a political post , that, we, as aviation fan, have no interest at all. I am astonished and ashamed that you are holding such views of your fellow citizens. You are giving Norwegians a bad name.
 
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zeke
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:52 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
Your thoughts ?

I think his comments are valid, a number of airlines in Europe will need to close. Many have unsustainable practices from when they were government owned, they need to be reset to move forward.
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MillwallSean
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:24 am

When we look at airlines that have enough money and possibility to buy competitors in Europe the list is very small indeed. capital injections from middle eastern airlines is always possible but thats a different thing.

Otherwise the most likely airlines to fail are those performing the worst. of the larger ones I would have put Air Berlin one, two and three before the Abu Dhabi investment happened. Now I just give them place two...

AF/KL is in trouble yes. but its not like they will ever risk going under. The French government would find a way to make AF survive. They will I assume defer their purchase of Alitalia though.

IAG has gotten cold feet. they don't have the resources or appetite to make any acquisitions the coming years according to their CEO. And believe me they had close looks at companies such as AB for instance. However the UK/Spain business markets are suffering more than the average European markets so they need to work their hardest to keep their own house in order.

LH has enough with turning Brussels and Austrian around. Taking on SK would be a headache not even LH could handle. SK has way way to high costs and the Danes wont accept CPH loosing its status as sole hub for the very profitable Oslo or the biggest business destination Stockholm. Not a mess to walk into when LH is already stuck with two other messes.

Also some of our North American brothers need to understand that parts of Europe is doing well right now.
Its not the entire continent that struggles. Its the southern parts plus countries like Ireland/Hungary.
Scandinavia, the Baltic, Poland and Germany for example is doing well. Low government debts, good trade balances, finances under control and a growing economy in all those countries etc. ( that's a lot better than the US by the way...)

The problem faced is that a few nations have lived over their means. As usual the successful have to pay for the others. Some countries accepted that when a payment is made the country should quickly do all in its power to get back on its feet and not bother the others again. Saw it as a national duty. Latvia for example. They did huge huge sacrifices when the first crisis emerged. Bigger than Greece and Ireland has done so far. Took them two years to turn their economy around and today their economy is one of Europe's fastest growing again albeit they lost 30% of GDP in a year when they made their big turnaround. I wish some of our PIGS could take a lead from them, pride in themselves and all that...

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 15):

IAG was mentioned earlier as being interested. This isn't good for LH/*A. With the TK deal in ashes, this will force LH into making an offer or possibly face losing LOT to another alliance.

Ahum and why would IAG have resources to make such an acquisition? Didn't Walsh say they weren't targeting acquisitions lately. Its not like IAG is a huge money making machine that doesn't have serious profitability issues. Nor is Spain and the UK:s economies doing especially well. Spain just asked for a bailout and the UK is in recession again...
Its also not like Poland's economy is tied to the UK/Spain's in a bigger way than what its tied to the German/Scandinavian and central European markets to the contrary. Add on that LOT use Miles and More and Id say the idea that any competing airline from a different alliance would buy LOT outright and it changing alliance is between zero to nil.
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PezySPU
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 21):
Why would troubled IAG invest in an airline TK (which is quite well performing) is not interested in?

Tobias, I'm under an impression that TK is one of those airlines that talk a lot but never get past that, plus they sort of compete with LH. And TK is not alone, think QR for example. Whenever an airline is on sale, these two are immediately "reportedly interested", make plans and what not. But then they go silent when it comes to finally opening the wallets. Just my impression and I did read the post below yours regarding ownership laws.

Oh and, look at the mess they did at JA. Well actually, TK didn't do much after investing at all - that's the problem.

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 21):
I mean, LOT isn't that important for Star Alliance anyway, are they?

Let me refer to LO's market as "historically LH's", if you get what I mean. And there are probably politics involved right there.

Quoting EricR (Reply 23):
Frills such as food service on short duration flights, free alcohol, etc. need to be eliminated in an effort to save costs and stay financially competitive.

There needs to be a difference between a legacy service and an LCC service, otherwise legacies are at a disadvantage. They are actually at a disadvantage anyway, no matter what. FSC doesn't work short-haul, LCC doesn't work long-haul.

Quoting ODAFZ (Reply 28):
You are turning this post into a political post , that, we, as aviation fan, have no interest at all. I am astonished and ashamed that you are holding such views of your fellow citizens. You are giving Norwegians a bad name.

His post is fine if you ask me. Is it that much more different than communities around airports, which make their needed growth impossible? Whose side are you on in that case?
 
vv701
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:29 pm

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 30):
Also some of our North American brothers need to understand that parts of Europe is doing well right now.
Its not the entire continent that struggles. Its the southern parts plus countries like Ireland/Hungary.
Scandinavia, the Baltic, Poland and Germany for example is doing well. Low government debts, good trade balances, finances under control and a growing economy in all those countries etc. ( that's a lot better than the US by the way...)

Very misleading.

The American economy grew at a faster rate in the first quarter of 2012 than any of the countries identified excepting only Norway (where GDP grew very slightly faster than the American GDP) and Latvia (where the growth rate was the same as in the USA). Indeed growth in America was double that of Germany, economically the most significant country in the list.

Here is the correct picture:

USA GDP 1st quarter 2012 c.f. last quarter 2011: +1.0 per cent

Denmark GDP 1st quarter 2012 c.f. last quarter 2011: +0.3 per cent
Estonia GDP 1st quarter 2012 c.f. last quarter 2011: +0.5 per cent
Finland GDP 1st quarter 2012 c.f. last quarter 2011: +0.8 per cent
Germany GDP 1st quarter 2012 c.f. last quarter 2011: +0.5 per cent
Latvia GDP 1st quarter 2012 c.f. last quarter 2011: +1.0 per cent
Lithuania GDP 1st quarter 2012 c.f. last quarter 2011: +0.8 per cent
Norway GDP 1st quarter 2012 c.f. last quarter 2011: +1.1 per cent
Poland GDP 1st quarter 2012 c.f. last quarter 2011: +0.8 per cent
Sweden GDP 1st quarter 2012 c.f. last quarter 2011: +0.8 per cent

In the Euro Zone GDP growth was very slightly negative on the first quarter of 2012 at -0.0 per cent.

Source: Tradiing Economics web site.
 
PHX787
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:23 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 29):
Many have unsustainable practices from when they were government owned, they need to be reset to move forward.

Even when privatized i don't think any of the troubled ones will be able to make a profit. I honestly think that airlines need to be a little careful when it comes to destinations and pricing.
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JU068
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:32 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 12):

Olympic is owned by the Marfin Investment Group so I guess that they are going to be ok (at least for now).

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 20):

Why?? A3 is in better financial health...

Yes but Aegean is owned by a group of Greek companies, which in this economic climate could be a problem for the airline. Recently I spoke with a person who works for the airline and he told me that the airline needs to get rid of 5 planes. They do not need so much capacity and it is costing the airline too much at this point.

Quoting EricR (Reply 23):
There is a lot of fat that needs to be cut out of these European carriers and the ones who survive are those who address these costs sooner rather than later.

Austrian Airlines had recently re-introduced meals on their flights. They stated that it does not cost them much but at the same times it improves the flying experience. So I think that the expense of meals is overrated.

Quoting ODAFZ (Reply 28):
You are turning this post into a political post , that, we, as aviation fan, have no interest at all. I am astonished and ashamed that you are holding such views of your fellow citizens. You are giving Norwegians a bad name.

He is not giving anyone a bad name. His views are Libertarian, which is perfectly in line with the policies the EU wants to promote.
 
JU068
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:51 am

I would also like to add that this should be a clear sign of how much the EU needs to be reformed. You cannot have an institution such as the European Commission which cannot launch an investigation and force countries to adopt new policies and regulations. Civil aviation is just one of many examples...
 
odafz
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:28 am

Quoting PezySPU (Reply 31):
His post is fine if you ask me. Is it that much more different than communities around airports, which make their needed growth impossible? Whose side are you on in that case?

I am on the side of respect for which Ferrovarius has none and I quote :
It's culturless wilderness anyway, whether or not some thousands are living out there.[/quote].....
Essential Air services are needed in such countries as Norway and Greece whose remote islands are difficult to reach at certain period of time of the year. and I do not know based on which doctrine these remote areas should be deprived of such lifeline services. Even in the mighty US they Have that kind of subsidized air services.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 34):
He is not giving anyone a bad name. His views are Libertarian, which is perfectly in line with the policies the EU wants to promote.



His views can be whatever .....but his lack of respect to his fellow citizens is startling and to deny essential air services to remote areas in his country for which as i understand the majority of his countrymen are willing to pay makes his libertarian opinions moot ... I do not believe that the EU has a policy to promote the isolation of a part of the population of a member state
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:48 am

Quoting ODAFZ (Reply 36):
His views can be whatever .....but his lack of respect to his fellow citizens is startling and to deny essential air services to remote areas in his country for which as i understand the majority of his countrymen are willing to pay makes his libertarian opinions moot ... I do not believe that the EU has a policy to promote the isolation of a part of the population of a member state

Libertarianism promotes the removal of state from the private sector. If the private sector cannot be self-sustaining then close it down. If these remote places in Norway cannot sustain a profitable air link then there is no reason for the state to pay for it (or pay for the region's survival).
The European Union wants to separate the state and the private sector, hence why government subsidies are mostly banned. He endorses these views, I do not but I respect those who do, you should try doing the same.
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:29 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 30):
The problem faced is that a few nations have lived over their means. As usual the successful have to pay for the others...... I wish some of our PIIGS could take a lead from them, pride in themselves and all that...

I do agree with your point but I would argue that pride is not a problem in Ireland. The problem of Irish debt is that the Irish political class decided to protect the private banking sector by absorbing their (gambling) debts and putting the burden on the taxpayers. The majority of Irish people did no live beyond their means but are now having to repay the borrowing caused by uncontrolled property/stock/bond speculation by private banks.
 
TWA902fly
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:40 am

Quoting ju068 (Reply 37):
Libertarianism promotes the removal of state from the private sector. If the private sector cannot be self-sustaining then close it down. If these remote places in Norway cannot sustain a profitable air link then there is no reason for the state to pay for it (or pay for the region's survival). The European Union wants to separate the state and the private sector, hence why government subsidies are mostly banned. He endorses these views, I do not but I respect those who do, you should try doing the same.

Those views are fine, but calling the areas outside of the major cities a "cultureless wilderness" is what I think was disrespectful. It's an implication that those farmers are somehow worth less than the city citizens, which isn't true, and is a completely separate statement from not wanting to subsidize air services to smaller communities. By his definition, everybody should move to the city and "allow" this cultureless wilderness to be reclaimed by mother nature.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
JU068
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:02 am

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 39):

I read his replies once again, just in case I missed something, but I still believe that his statements are directed towards communities which are not self-sustaining.
What I believe he wanted to say is that it is unfair that people in the cities should finance various societies which are not 'profitable'. I did not see anywhere that he refers to these remote areas as less worthy.

Actually if Norway was part of the European Union these subsidies would be banned because they are not in accordance with the Lisbon Treaty.
 
sweair
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RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:09 am

Its horrible waste of tax money to have flights in rural areas. Most sane people would agree. If you want to live in a rural area, you have to live with the drawbacks. I want an Aston Martin, should I demand that other taxpayers finance my car?

Its things like this that will kill SAS and other governmental owned airlines, so much waste of funds.These things must end.
 
mutu
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:04 am

RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:35 am

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 30):
IAG has gotten cold feet. they don't have the resources or appetite to make any acquisitions the coming years according to their CEO. And believe me they had close looks at companies such as AB for instance. However the UK/Spain business markets are suffering more than the average European markets so they need to work their hardest to keep their own house in order

it is true IB is shrinking a little due to poor local economy but BA premium traffic continues to grow strongly and the forward outlook more optimistic.

I am not aware IAG is in trouble as you seem to suggest here and elsewhere, indeed AT THE MOMENT it is one of the more profitable carriers, its net debt is minimal and all new aircraft orders are covered by committed funding

But yes the outlook for all carriers is degrading by the month, no one is sitting pretty not even SQ and EK are immune.

Willie Walsh has made it clear at IATA conference that TAP is no longer of real interest due to Iberian peninsualr problems, which makes sense. And the integration of BD into BA will take up BA management time for sure...but IAG management still have an objective to satisfy over time.
 
mikey72
Posts: 1439
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:31 pm

RE: Iata : Eurozone Crisis Can Kill Some Airlines

Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:38 am

Europe is a mess at the moment and god knows where it's all going to end.

Intra European cross border traffic is starting to collapse.

IATA are forecasting multi-billion $$$ losses for the industry this year.

LH is selling not buying, IAG would have given BD directions if not for the problems at LHR and AF group is in the midst of massive cost cutting.

It's anyone's guess.........
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.

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