Matt D
Topic Author
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

Questions On SNA

Sat Oct 14, 2000 1:01 am

I've heard talk about there being a "waiting list" for airlines to serve SNA.
I was wondering if anyone could address the following:

1. What airlines are on that list?

2. How long do they have to wait?

3. WHY are they wating? It's not because there's a shortage of slots or gates. If you go to SNA anytime after 9AM, the terminal rarely gets more than half full.

4. How did Morris Air get in back in 1992?

5. Was the purchase of Morris how Southwest got in?

6. I've heard that there are also limits on the number of PAX that can fly out of SNA and that many airlines are forced to have less than full flights. If that is true, then why are there so many 757's there? Why wouldn't AA for example use less 752's and put in more MD-80's, 738's or even F-100's? Wouldn't it be more economical to run a full or nearly full 738 than a 757 with 75 empty seats?
 
Guest

RE: Questions On SNA

Sat Oct 14, 2000 3:45 am

Aloha and Frontier are on the list, I am not sure of any one else.

I think both of them start service in January 2001

The problem with SNA only so many passengers can fly out per year and they are very close to that number. The airline could fly in there but would have to be empty!

Don't know about morris air.

The reason for running empty seats is of the short runway when it gets hot, and the plane is full loaded! Not because the rules about filling it up!
Iain
 
jabpilot
Posts: 413
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 1999 8:38 am

RE: Questions On SNA

Sat Oct 14, 2000 8:55 am

Iainhol, how did you find out that Aloha's on the list to get into SNA? Aloha hasn't even made up their mind yet on which of the So.Cal airports they'd like to fly into. They're still checking into SNA, BUR, ONT and LAX. Jeff
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Questions On SNA

Sat Oct 14, 2000 9:33 am

>It's not because there's a shortage of slots or gates.

Actually it is... slots that is. SNA is restricted by noise slot limits rather than physical capacity. The MD90 is the only airliner currently certified for EE slots which have no restrictions.

>If that is true, then why are there so many 757's there? Why
>wouldn't AA for example use less 752's and put in more MD-80's,
>738's or even F-100's? Wouldn't it be more economical to run a full or
>nearly full 738 than a 757 with 75 empty seats?

757s are quieter (uses different slot) than MD80 while providing greater high-revenue seating capacity. F100s were originally purchased for SNA ops, but were unable to meet EE noise standards. 738 does not meet EE noise standard as of this date.

*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
Guest

RE: Questions On SNA

Sat Oct 14, 2000 9:44 am

Spoke to one of there Captains the other month, he assured me they will be flying to SNA in early 2001.
Iain
 
Guest

RE: Questions On SNA

Sat Oct 14, 2000 9:49 am

Can someone clearly explain to us easterners the situation at SNA? From what I've heard the airport has plenty of room and a new large modern terminal. Whats the story on these limitations and restrictions? Also, which airlines fly to where and with what? I ask because TW is staring JFK-SNA service soon.
 
Guest

RE: Questions On SNA

Sat Oct 14, 2000 10:11 am

The problem is the people that live at the departure end have plenty of money and when SNA got big for its approval they put a number of yearly passengers. It is not that empty, but when the number was planned they thought 737 would be the main thing in and out of there, not larger 757. It also has quite a short runway and funny noise abatement procedures. Airlines that operate out of SNA are:
TWA
American
United
US Air
America West
Southwest
Alaska
Continental
FedEx
UPS
Skywest
I think that is it.
Iain
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Questions On SNA

Sat Oct 14, 2000 10:24 am

>Whats the story on these limitations and restrictions?

SNA is the most noise restrictive airport in the country. Multiple automated noise monitoring stations with very specific time and db limitations placed upon _all_ aircraft. Effectively limits anything larger than light private aircraft to 7am-11pm weekday and 8am-10pm weekend operations.

Special flight profiles were developed for various airliners to reduce the aircraft's noise signature enough to permit operating from SNA. i.e. max power takeoffs until 800 feet, then severe power cutback until 5 miles (well out over ocean).

The "new, modern terminal" you mention is almost as long as the long runway (19R). A single airliner capable taxiway on each side of the airport and limited "remote" parking space places severe limits on what may/may not operate at SNA.

There is nothing on the east coast to compare to California noise cerfew airports and no California cerfew is more restrictive nor more tightly enforced than SNA.

>Also, which airlines fly to where and with what?

AA flys to ORD, DFW, SJC, SFO, and SEA (at least).

>I ask because TW is staring JFK-SNA service soon.

AA tried it a couple of years ago only to learn it was full of AA's passengers from LAX flights. Dropped it about 6 or 8 months after it began.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
MSPMAN
Posts: 168
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2000 1:22 pm

RE: Questions On SNA

Sat Oct 14, 2000 10:45 am

Northwest also flies to SNA from MSP and maybe DTW with A320s and maybe 757s.
 
Kohflot
Posts: 941
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 1999 5:31 am

RE: Questions On SNA

Sat Oct 14, 2000 11:39 am

NW does fly to SNA.. haven't seen a 757 of theirs there in a long time, just A320s and A319s.

The longest flight at this point (before TW's JFK service) is CO's service to EWR in a 73G. A 2400 mile flight off of a 5700 ft. runway and a severely noise restricted departure.. that's pretty impressive.
Ask why..
 
Guest

RE: Questions On SNA

Sat Oct 14, 2000 3:00 pm

Correct NW flies A320's in and out of SNA.
Iain
 
flywithken
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 1999 2:19 am

RE: Questions On SNA

Sat Oct 14, 2000 5:24 pm

>Also, which airlines fly to where and with what?<

ALaska Airlines flys to Seattle, Portland, and Oakland from SNA. THey use the 737-700 mostly and the -400 too.

FLY ALASKA

KEN
 
Guest

RE: Questions On SNA

Sat Oct 14, 2000 5:36 pm

ken, where you work, i work at sna, by the way, whoever said that the airport is almost empty after 9 am, hasnt been there lately, it turns into an LAX traffic jam almost daily now. Today one of our planes landed, and it took almost 30 minutes to get to the gate because of traffic.
 
Guest

RE: Questions On SNA

Sun Oct 15, 2000 12:14 am

Evilboy,

which carrier? j/c?

WHich airline has the largest share of pax at SNA?
 
Guest

RE: Questions On SNA

Sun Oct 15, 2000 5:24 am

American has the most flights out of SNA, tons and tons of 757's md 80 and 90's, and even some new 737-800's
 
User avatar
fanoftristars
Posts: 1544
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 9:03 am

RE: Questions On SNA

Sun Oct 15, 2000 5:32 am

Where does Southewest fly to SNA from?? I have never been able to get a flight to SNA of Southwest from SLC. From the east coast?
"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
hawaiian717
Posts: 3139
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

RE: Questions On SNA

Sun Oct 15, 2000 5:57 am

My understanding is that Aloha is second on the waiting list for slots at SNA, behind Air Canada, which has been on the list for at least two years.
 
Matt D
Topic Author
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: Questions On SNA

Sun Oct 15, 2000 9:22 am

I was at SNA this morning. Got lots of shots, mainly of the AA MD-90's, but also a few other goodies.
I was there until about 1000.
Make no mistake about it, that airport IS a zoo from 0530 until about 0900. Then, it stayed pretty quiet until at least the time I left.
I was there in the afternoon last week with my girlfriend, and it was hardly an LAX type traffic jam.
One other question: Why do the airlines have 0630 "departures" only to languish out on the taxiways for half an hour????
I understand the noise abatement procedures and all of that, but why publish a flight departure time that cannot realistically be met? (yes I know that departure time is pushback time, not liftoff time)
It's a riot to go down there in the morning, just before 0700, when the first 'wave' of departures have pushed. The planes are lined up and scattered all over the place. Some of them taxi all the way around the field, and wait on the other side (the side that the tower is on)
As for where WN flies, they only have service to OAK and SJC out of SNA.
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Questions On SNA

Mon Oct 16, 2000 11:27 am

>One other question: Why do the airlines have 0630 "departures" only to languish out
>on the taxiways for half an hour???? I understand the noise abatement procedures and
>all of that, but why publish a flight departure time that cannot realistically be met? (yes I know
>that departure time is pushback time, not liftoff time)

If you know departure time is pushback time, then you know the 0630 departures left at 0630... on time. The real question is why leave the gate prior to earliest takeoff time of 0700. Two reasons actually.

1. ATC operates "first come, first served." First to call ground control for pushback gets first available takeoff and/or eastbound departure slots. For example; I used to fly AA's 0645 departures to ORD/DFW. If we were ready and called ATC 2 minutes prior to departure time for pushback, we were usually 1st or 2nd in takeoff line. If we were not ready until scheduled departure time, we were usually 10-15 for takeoff. That means up to 45 minute wait before takeoff!

2. Terminal gate space is limited so first wave of departures leaves and second wave of departures are pulled from remote parking spots to the gates. Leaving prior to 7am permits these remotely parked aircraft to be moved to gates sooner and therefore second wave of takeoffs can occur sooner than otherwise possible.

>It's a riot to go down there in the morning, just before 0700, when the first 'wave' of
>departures have pushed. The planes are lined up and scattered all over the place. Some of
>them taxi all the way around the field, and wait on the other side (the side that the tower is on)

Actually, we're not scattered all over the place, but rather we're lined up on one of the two available taxiways to use the one available runway. Use of the west side during this time period is normal provided no small aircraft are using it. With the 19L construction going on, normal procedure is to send two aircraft to the west side with the rest lined up on 19L facing north. Aircraft that can not fit onto 19L are usually held on the gate so taxiway A is open to tow aircraft from remote parking to open gates. By 0730 or so runway 19L becomes usuable for light civilian planes and all remaining airliner departures line up on taxiway A awaiting departure.

At night, the reverse occurs as runway 19L is used for inbound taxiing aircraft trying to get to gates and taxiway A is used for towing aircraft to overnight parking spots.

*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!