realsim
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AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:41 pm

Hello,

According to the following article, which is only available in Spanish for the moment, AA/BA/IB are preparing a plan for the next 5 years, that will be announced in 2013, where new routes are being considered. The statement has been made by the Vice-President of Strategic Alliances of Iberia.

Apart from that, he specifically said that they are weighting up DFW-BCN, operated by AA, and using Vueling for connections beyond BCN. The article praises DFW as a connecting point, and also contains some mistakes, like the statement that AA has orders for "100 777-3000" (sic), 42 firm and 58 options. Like this order is specifically quoted by AA's Commercial Manager in Spain, maybe the route is being considered but only for the 789.

It surprises me that DFW-BCN is considered before ORD-BCN. I also wonder if another route from MAD could be viable, now that all 5 cornerstones are operated. The only one I can think about is trying again MAD-IAD.

Regarding other European-North American flights that could be announced in 2013, there's of course the long overdue European expansion by AA (ex JFK, ORD and MIA), as well as maybe other flights such as LHR-DTW, PIT or BDL, but that are only some hypothesis.

Source: http://www.eleconomista.es/economia/...-conecte-Barcelona-con-Dallas.html

[Edited 2012-06-12 12:43:08]
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:19 pm

DFW-BCN? Hmm...That's intriguing.
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IrishAyes
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:47 pm

This article is a bit all over the place. Nevertheless, interesting information presented here.

Respecto al uso de Vueling en un futuro, Martín ha subrayado que la participada por Iberia será usada en Barcelona para fortalecer los vuelos existentes y desarrollar nuevas operaciones desde Estados Unidos, sobre todo, de la mano de American Airlines.

So my takeaway here is that Vueling has codeshare agreements with Iberia, but not American; however, thanks to metal neutrality, Vueling would be able to coordinate agreements with a DFWBCN flight operated by AA. Or is that a complete stretch?

Also, agreed that the fleet information presented in this article is completely inaccurate. It says that AA has an order of 100 Boeing 777-300 (corrected from the 3000s) with 42 confirmed orders and options for 58 more. The only numerical data on AA's fleet (both in-service and on-order) that coordinate with those numerals actually have to do with the 767 and 787 fleets, as far as I know...AA has 58 767s in operation and 42 788s on order...not sure where this author's data came from?

It goes further to mention that Dallas is the third most sought-after business destination in the US (?!). It also touts terminal D and AA's market share at DFW at 85%.

As cool as it would be to see AA fly DFWBCN, I'm somewhat skeptical on that one.

[Edited 2012-06-12 13:52:20]
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realsim
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:08 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 2):
Also, agreed that the fleet information presented in this article is completely inaccurate. It says that AA has an order of 100 Boeing 777-300 (corrected from the 3000s) with 42 confirmed orders and options for 58 more. The only numerical data on AA's fleet (both in-service and on-order) that coordinate with those numerals actually have to do with the 767 and 787 fleets, as far as I know...AA has 58 767s in operation and 42 788s on order...not sure where this author's data came from?

The numbers were correct (42 orders and 58 options), but for the 789, not the 77W.

I'm also skeptical: Latin American connections are handled via MAD and MIA, while the most important US markets (specially in the West Coast) can be flown via JFK with AA. If they wanted a connection to a bigger hub, then I would guess they would try ORD before DFW. Apart from that, I would add a second JFKBCN flight before this one, because AA isn't the biggest American airline in BCN (DL is). Anyway, we'll have to wait till next year to know what happens to these plans.
 
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:10 pm

Quoting realsim (Thread starter):
Regarding other European-North American flights that could be announced in 2013, there's of course the long overdue European expansion by AA (ex JFK, ORD and MIA), as well as maybe other flights such as LHR-DTW, PIT or BDL, but that are only some hypothesis.

What new LHR-USA routes have been rumored or are being considered?
I could see the return of DTW-LHR. Could also see new routes PDX-LHR, FLL-LGW.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:24 pm

Quoting realsim (Reply 3):
I'm also skeptical: Latin American connections are handled via MAD and MIA, while the most important US markets (specially in the West Coast) can be flown via JFK with AA. If they wanted a connection to a bigger hub, then I would guess they would try ORD before DFW. Apart from that, I would add a second JFKBCN flight before this one, because AA isn't the biggest American airline in BCN (DL is). Anyway, we'll have to wait till next year to know what happens to these plans.

Did the article mention Latin American connections as a reason for launching DFWBCN? I'm not quite sure it did.

Also, AA's ORD hub is NOT bigger than DFW. Nor is AA's JFK hub better for connections to the west coast.

I'm also fairly sure AA flew JFKBCN 2X for a brief period of time.

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 4):
What new LHR-USA routes have been rumored or are being considered?
I could see the return of DTW-LHR. Could also see new routes PDX-LHR, FLL-LGW.

I don't see PDX-LHR happening. DL can't even support PDXAMS year round and that is the only European connection PDX has.

AA pulled the plug on its LGW operations years ago. It would be foolish for them to recommence operations there, splitting costs between two airports in an overseas location, for the sake of one daily leisure route to a low-yielding, leisure-oriented city like FLL. Until the day comes when AA changes its business model to resemble the likes of Zoom Airlines, Thomas Cook or Sun Country, FLLLGW will never happen.
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ANA787
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:37 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 5):
I don't see PDX-LHR happening. DL can't even support PDXAMS year round and that is the only European connection PDX has.

PDXAMS has been upgauged to a daily A333 for summer, from A332 last year. The flight drops to 5x weekly during winter. Being that LHR is PDX's largest international O/D route without a nonstop, PDX could be a potential market for BA. PDX has seen quite a bit of growth this year.
 
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:42 pm

Some ideal/necessary routes are, JFK-BHX, JFK-AMS, JFK-FRA, JFK-MUC (all by AA) - IAD-MAD (resumed by IB), MIA-FRA, MIA-MXP/FCO (by AA) - DTW-LHR (resumed by BA) - ORD-FRA, ORD-BHX (both resumed by AA), and LAX-CDG (resumed by AA). It would also make sense if EC replaced AA on BOS-CDG (flying BOS-ORY instead) and resumed ORY-IAD.
 
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 5):
AA pulled the plug on its LGW operations years ago. It would be foolish for them to recommence operations there, splitting costs between two airports in an overseas location, for the sake of one daily leisure route to a low-yielding, leisure-oriented city like FLL. Until the day comes when AA changes its business model to resemble the likes of Zoom Airlines, Thomas Cook or Sun Country, FLLLGW will never happen.

Im pretty sure he meant BA using the leisure 767's to FLL. It could be a good way to funnel leisure passengers.
 
chepos
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:58 pm

Not sure why BA would use up a 763 on a FLL route when MIA is down the road were they already have plenty of capacity to LHR. PDX-LHR - highly doubtful.

Regards,

Chepos
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fxramper
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:01 pm

Could AA run a 3x BCN 4x MAD out of DFW?   
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:30 pm

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 6):
PDXAMS has been upgauged to a daily A333 for summer, from A332 last year. The flight drops to 5x weekly during winter. Being that LHR is PDX's largest international O/D route without a nonstop, PDX could be a potential market for BA. PDX has seen quite a bit of growth this year.

Growth at PDX has been primarily domestic, and to Hawaii/leisure destinations, not intercontinental.

LH struggled to support PDX alongside the DL (then Northwest) flight to AMS, especially given that LH serves YVR, SEA, DEN and SFO all within the same neighborhood. The situation for BA will be no different. Also challenging for BA will be the lack of codeshare agreement with AS, which helps out the DL flight to AMS (alongside subsidies) with extra feed.

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 8):
Im pretty sure he meant BA using the leisure 767's to FLL. It could be a good way to funnel leisure passengers.

I see the logic there, but still don't buy it. Europeans headed to South Florida wish to visit Miami, not FLL, and obviously prefer to fly directly into MIA. On paper it seems like a good idea, but if it were achievable, I feel like the likes of VS or AF might have attempted it already into LGW or ORY. Instead, the only transatlantic carrier flying into FLL is Condor.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 10):
Could AA run a 3x BCN 4x MAD out of DFW?   

Why would AA do that??? None of those three airports face slot restrictions, and AA runs a daily 777 to MAD in the summer season. It has been a huge success story.

Whereas MAD is a OneWorld hub, and it makes sense to connect it to DFW, the largest OneWorld hub in the Americas, BCN is NOT a OneWorld hub, and is primarily a leisure/tourism-oriented city in Southern Europe. I really don't see how that fits into any business needs for DFW.
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DFWEagle
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:32 pm

AA announced a DFW-BCN route once before, WAY back in 1989. It was planned to begin in spring 1990, but with the purchase of TWA's Heathrow routes and Eastern's Latin American routes around that time, they never actually started it.

Both DFW-BCN and ORD-HEL were announced at the same time in 1989, but neither were started. Last year AA finally started ORD-HEL so it would be pretty cool if they ended up starting DFW-BCN too.  
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miaintl
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:37 pm

I think MIA-BRU, MIA-MAN, and MIA-DUB are good Euro routes to fly out of MIA aswell as maybe MIA-DME which can be fed with S7.
 
ANA787
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 11):
Growth at PDX has been primarily domestic, and to Hawaii/leisure destinations, not intercontinental.

LH struggled to support PDX alongside the DL (then Northwest) flight to AMS, especially given that LH serves YVR, SEA, DEN and SFO all within the same neighborhood. The situation for BA will be no different. Also challenging for BA will be the lack of codeshare agreement with AS, which helps out the DL flight to AMS (alongside subsidies) with extra feed.

Economically, it was probably the worst time to have BOTH AMS and FRA from PDX around the global downturn. But before the downturn, LH and NW at PDX were coexisting. As well as PDX and SEA both with LH. Things are rebounding in PDX and maybe its time for another go for PDX to have an additional Europe flight. I think BA PDX-LHR would perform better than LH PDX-FRA.

Don't know where you are getting that PDX-AMS has subsidies. It has never been subsidized:
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/i...orts_gamble_on_delta_pays_off.html

PDX-NRT was subsidized for a time, but the deal did not include AMS.

Since then, PDX-AMS/NRT on Delta have become permanent and there have been talks of even Paris:
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/i...elta_makes_pdx_nonstops_to_am.html

If Delta keeps on feeling optimistic about PDX, maybe BA would beat DL to adding another nonstop route to Europe in the future.
 
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:16 pm

As much as I would love to see DFW-BCN, I think ORD-GRU would happen before this (and I don't see that happening). AA will expand to Europe in the next few years if/when the economy recovers, but it would more likely be out of JFK, MIA,or ORD. DFW does not have the best locatoin to be a European hub (hence only flights to LHR, FRA, CDG, MAD, and AMS - which is seasonal). I could see IB taking over DFW-MAD with a 340 and AA flying ORD-MAD with a 763.
 
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:55 pm

DFW-BCN is a terrible idea. No way intl pax would really want to connect on Vueling, and there's too little traffic to BCN in the off-season. ORD-GRU is a better idea, or how about ORD-BER?
 
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:23 am

As I am one of the sites largest DFW biggest boosters, at first it's exciting to hear a new route being considered for your home airport. However, taking a step back I have to agree, DFWBCN is not a good idea. Even if AA/IAG was considering another route from DFW to Europe, I'm not sure BCN would be the one to go for.

The best solution (to me) is not to start a new route from DFW, but rather to increase the seat count on DFWMAD. Unlike DFWBCN, DFWMAD is a decent sized local market and the hub in MAD is much bigger.
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:44 am

Quoting fxramper (Reply 10):

Why would they? Daily DFW-MAd works well. Why split it if it works.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:47 am

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 14):
Economically, it was probably the worst time to have BOTH AMS and FRA from PDX around the global downturn. But before the downturn, LH and NW at PDX were coexisting. As well as PDX and SEA both with LH. Things are rebounding in PDX and maybe its time for another go for PDX to have an additional Europe flight. I think BA PDX-LHR would perform better than LH PDX-FRA.

The two flights coexisted for roughly a little over a year before LH decided to can the flight. That really isn't all that long. Granted, the meltdown pretty much occurred shortly after NW launched PDXAMS, but it took government incentives for PDX to lure LH back in 2003, and they were given 6 years for the market to develop. If there was still potential, LH could have considered operating PDX on a seasonal basis, but they chose not to.

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 14):
Don't know where you are getting that PDX-AMS has subsidies. It has never been subsidized:
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/i....html

Thanks for the clarification. I was actually using the same source as you and when I came across this paragraph:

"The support we have received from the Port of Portland, the city and, of course, our customers, has made our flights to Tokyo and Amsterdam successful," said Jim Cron, Delta senior vice president for global sales and distribution. "We look forward to continue contributing to the economic development of the city."

...I was thrown off. But indeed after doing further searching I did not see any other sources confirming that PDXAMS was subsidized. The ambiguous wording threw me off. My apologies.
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boeing773er
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:49 am

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 4):
What new LHR-USA routes have been rumored or are being considered?

I highly doubt any new LHR-USA flights will be added by carrier at the moment, because of the limited amounts of LHR easily available. The only possible thing I could see is AA dropping the RDU-LHR flight, but I highly doubt it because I believe they have some sort of contract with a drug company in RDU.

Or they could drop one of their dozen LHR-JFK flights, but again why?
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kwbl
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:05 am

I think PDX-LHR could be possible in the next few years. LH did very well until NW started AMS and LH did SEA-FRA. Those factors, coupled with a bad regional economy, hurt LH (by the way, they stillhad very good LF when they terminated PDX). I think the advantage BA would have is London would carry more O & D than FRA (and way more than AMS), they would have BA's network in LHR, and they have the code-share with Alaska at PDX. If PDX continues to grow, I could see both flights co-existing profitably.
 
laca773
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:53 am

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 7):
Some ideal/necessary routes are, JFK-BHX, JFK-AMS, JFK-FRA, JFK-MUC (all by AA) - IAD-MAD (resumed by IB), MIA-FRA, MIA-MXP/FCO (by AA) - DTW-LHR (resumed by BA) - ORD-FRA, ORD-BHX (both resumed by AA), and LAX-CDG (resumed by AA). It would also make sense if EC replaced AA on BOS-CDG (flying BOS-ORY instead) and resumed ORY-IAD.

I don't think we'll see much expansion to the EU by AA anytime in the foreseeable future. FRA is pretty much a weak link and at this point, DFW-FRA does pretty good with a 763ER?
All of these additional German destinations you're suggesting would be best served by AB via BER or DUS now that they are a part of OW.
LAX-CDG will not happen again.
Who is EC? I've been trying hard to think who this is to switch these routes over too, but it sounds like by the suggestion you're making, they would be purely leisure and we all know what that does to the yields.

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 14):
Economically, it was probably the worst time to have BOTH AMS and FRA from PDX around the global downturn. But before the downturn, LH and NW at PDX were coexisting. As well as PDX and SEA both with LH. Things are rebounding in PDX and maybe its time for another go for PDX to have an additional Europe flight. I think BA PDX-LHR would perform better than LH PDX-FRA.

BA already serves the Pacific Northwest well with service to SEA & YVR. I don't see this happening unless a significant number of slots open @ LHR. If anything, I can see DL adding PDX-CDG with a 76W. BUT that's only if the demand increases a great deal on PDX-AMS (not all leisure) and the economy improves markedly over the next couple of years.
 
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:31 am

The Barcelona metropolitan area is one of the largest in the EU with over 4 million people. In a better economy, AA and OW could turn this into a successful focus city. Obviously, JFK has limited connection opportunities for travelers out of BCN, and this seasonal route seems to be consistent with AA's feabile attempt at handling its Trans-Atlantic routes outside of LHR. Perhaps with better planes and service, it could regain some of its luster here. One can only hope.

I see BCN distinctly from MAD. People from the BCN area generally despise MAD for historical reasons, and would rather fly locally. So there is a case for AA starting a second BCN route. Its choices are ORD or DFW, and given ORD's closer proximityto JFK, DFW makes more sense here.

Of course, once the guys from U.S. Airways take over, one would need to add PHL into the mix. Note that this route is handled on a modern A330 aircraft.
 
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:03 pm

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 23):
I see BCN distinctly from MAD. People from the BCN area generally despise MAD for historical reasons, and would rather fly locally. So there is a case for AA starting a second BCN route. Its choices are ORD or DFW, and given ORD's closer proximityto JFK, DFW makes more sense here.

AA/IB should fly to 3 American cities, JFK and MIA for obvious reasons and Chicago for connections. DFW is too far west to be effective hub for connections to most of the USA.
 
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:14 pm

Quoting realsim (Reply 3):
I'm also skeptical: Latin American connections are handled via MAD and MIA

However there is demand for non-stop flights between certain South American cities and BCN. AV operates BOG-BCN, AR operates EZE-BCN and both IB and SQ operate non-stop flights between BCN and GRU. Recently LAN publicly stated that it is interested in launching direct routes between SCL and BCN and BOG and BCN!
 
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:40 pm

Quoting realsim (Reply 3):
I would add a second JFKBCN flight before this one
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 5):
I'm also fairly sure AA flew JFKBCN 2X for a brief period of time.

Yes, AA operated 2 daily JFK-BCN flights during a couple of months last summer. Apparently, it's not going to happen this summer, presumably because MIA-BCN has gone daily.

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 15):
I could see IB taking over DFW-MAD with a 340 and AA flying ORD-MAD with a 763.

IB already flies ORD-MAD daily. And with a 346. Or at least that's what I think I saw at ORD a couple of weeks ago.

The fact is that AA's onwards connectivity from JFK is not great. Actually, it's pretty bad. So a BCN-DFW flight would open BCN to a lot of AA markets. That doesn't mean it is viable, of course. Selfishly, I'd rather prefer a BCN-ORD flight, since I travel this route at least 5 times a year. A flight like this may make me ditch Star for oneworld.... (And then have to endure IB? Nah...)
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:08 pm

DFW-BCN makes a lot of sense, but getting the premium pax might prove difficult.
 
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:30 pm

I don't doubt that some opportunities exist for AA/IAG, but how are they going to fly them without more crews? That is, they're already complaining about crew shortages and it seems that they haven't spooled up the training department. So to fly new routes, they'd need to reduce flying on other routes and how likely is that?
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IrishAyes
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:02 pm

Quoting nomorerjs (Reply 15):
I could see IB taking over DFW-MAD with a 340 and AA flying ORD-MAD with a 763.

Interesting proposition. DFWMAD certainly could use a larger density plane with a higher Y configuration and a smaller F/J configuration, but that will hopefully be solved once AA re-configures their 772s. I wonder how the PDEW breakdown between DFW-MAD and ORD-MAD could play into this...

Quoting Boeing773ER (Reply 20):
I highly doubt any new LHR-USA flights will be added by carrier at the moment, because of the limited amounts of LHR easily available. The only possible thing I could see is AA dropping the RDU-LHR flight, but I highly doubt it because I believe they have some sort of contract with a drug company in RDU.

Or they could drop one of their dozen LHR-JFK flights, but again why?

IAG has 42 daily LHR slots as part of its purchase of bmi from Lufthansa. They've already announced a 6w LHRICN and will likely continue to grow a few long-haul routes from LHR into 2013, but I primarily see them targeting Asia more rather than North America.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 16):
DFW-BCN is a terrible idea. No way intl pax would really want to connect on Vueling, and there's too little traffic to BCN in the off-season. ORD-GRU is a better idea, or how about ORD-BER?

I don't think AA has any real interest going head to head with UA on ORDGRU. GRU is served plentifully from MIA and DFW. I do agree that AA should venture into ORDBER but who honestly knows what future plans AA has in store for growing their intercontinental network out of ORD moving forward.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 23):
Obviously, JFK has limited connection opportunities for travelers out of BCN, and this seasonal route seems to be consistent with AA's feabile attempt at handling its Trans-Atlantic routes outside of LHR.

???? JFKBCN is year-round, and always has been, as is MIABCN. AA provides 450 daily seats into BCN, and that is even in the low-season, whereas comparatively UA and DL are less-than-daily in the winter. I would hardly call BCN a "feeble attempt" on AA's behalf.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 23):
Of course, once the guys from U.S. Airways take over, one would need to add PHL into the mix. Note that this route is handled on a modern A330 aircraft.

Let's refrain from jumping the gun here. For the record, PHLBCN is running seasonally this year. It is zeroed out after 28-OCT-12.
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TWA85
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:02 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 22):
I don't think we'll see much expansion to the EU by AA anytime in the foreseeable future. FRA is pretty much a weak link and at this point, DFW-FRA does pretty good with a 763ER?

FRA became a weak link because of the massive Star Alliance presense there that AA was not able to effectivly compete against due to its high cost structure. After AA emerges from bankruptcy AA will be able to compete more effectivly in FRA. Although they will still have to compete against the Star Alliance hub, the situation will be similar to how DL and UA compete with AA/BA at LHR and AA/UA compete with DL/AF at CDG etc.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 22):
All of these additional German destinations you're suggesting would be best served by AB via BER or DUS now that they are a part of OW.

The only additional German destination mentioned is MUC of which could be served via BER or DUS by AB, however when AA has it's cost structure more in line with UA and DL, they could add there own direct presence in MUC (of which AB can feed) vs. convincing passangers to connect in BER or DUS instead of flying non-stop from MUC on LH.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 22):
Who is EC? I've been trying hard to think who this is to switch these routes over too, but it sounds like by the suggestion you're making, they would be purely leisure and we all know what that does to the yields.

EC is BA's subsidiary "OpenSkies" of which is an all premium carrier with limited low yielding traffic. When the AA/IAG JSA was approved, the DOT made it mandatory that EC be included in the JSA.
 
UALWN
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 29):
For the record, PHLBCN is running seasonally this year. It is zeroed out after 28-OCT-12.

I don't think PHL-BCN has ever operated in the winter.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 29):
UA and DL are less-than-daily in the winter.

UA (well, CO) operated EWR-BCN daily throughout this past winter, but apparently that's going to change for next winter. If I'm not mistaken, DL has operated both JFK-BCN and ATL-BCN daily during the last few winters, but this may change too.
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jumpjets
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:45 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 22):
Who is EC?

It is Open Skies the BA subsidiary that IIRC flies solely between ORY and EWR.
 
EddieDude
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:29 am

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 5):
Did the article mention Latin American connections as a reason for launching DFWBCN? I'm not quite sure it did.

I would venture to say that oneworld traffic between BCN and Latin America would be better served via MAD and MIA. The only city pairs that I can think of at the moment (there could be others) for which an AA/IB BCN-DFW flight would be more useful are BCN-GDL and BCN-MTY (both in Mexico), but it would be too presumptuous to think that this market is meaningful enough.

Quoting laca773 (Reply 22):
All of these additional German destinations you're suggesting would be best served by AB via BER or DUS now that they are a part of OW.

Yes, I would not be surprised to see AA launch flights to DUS and BER from one or more of its hubs.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 29):
DFWMAD certainly could use a larger density plane with a higher Y configuration and a smaller F/J configuration, but that will hopefully be solved once AA re-configures their 772s.

The 77Es after the reconfiguration will no longer have F-class right? Just J, Y+ and Y?

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 29):
I primarily see them targeting Asia more rather than North America.

I agree. I think Asia is the region with the best growth prospects at the moment and in the short and medium term.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
AAplat4life
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:05 pm

I had forgotten that JFK-BCN was year round, so it was wrong for me to call this a feeble attempt. I actually have to say that I'd be impressed in AA built a pressence in BCN, and hopefully its OW connections will allow this.
 
jfk777
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:10 pm

IBeria seems to down play Barcelona, Madrid has plenty of expansion space which is why BA merged with IB, BCN should be to IB what MUC is to Lufthansa. BCN has plenty of Business ties with Latin America, IB should have flights to not only GRU but EZE, BOG, MEX, PTY and Santo Domingo.
 
Talaier
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 35):
Beria seems to down play Barcelona, Madrid has plenty of expansion space which is why BA merged with IB, BCN should be to IB what MUC is to Lufthansa. BCN has plenty of Business ties with Latin America, IB should have flights to not only GRU but EZE, BOG, MEX, PTY and Santo Domingo.

The problem is you need feed to make those flights profitable enough and keep decent schedules. All the Latin American carriers that fly to BCN seldom have daily frequencies. That's why a lot of the business traffic still gets routed through Madrid.

The flights to the US work perfectly because there's an ATI.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 35):
BCN should be to IB what MUC is to Lufthansa

But it isnt. Its not even close.

MUC is a full fledge intercontinental hub. BCN has a few intercontinental flights, but nothing even close to MUC.
It is what it is...
 
jfk777
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 37):
CN should be to IB what MUC is to Lufthansa
But it isnt. Its not even close.

MUC is a full fledge intercontinental hub. BCN has a few intercontinental flights, but nothing even close to MUC.

"SHOULD" is the operative word, I know BCN is NOT to IB what MUC is to LH but is could be if Willie Walsh wanted it to be.
 
EddieDude
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 38):
"SHOULD" is the operative word, I know BCN is NOT to IB what MUC is to LH but is could be if Willie Walsh wanted it to be.

Given the current state of the Spanish economy (including Catalonia's woes), this is not something that could happen in the near future.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:08 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 38):
"SHOULD" is the operative word, I know BCN is NOT to IB what MUC is to LH but is could be if Willie Walsh wanted it to be.

Nah. Spain's economy is in the toilet and has little hope of getting better any time soon. Germany on the other hand is doing relatively well considering. Germany is also a much larger country than Spain and has more travel demand.
It is what it is...
 
Talaier
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:33 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 40):
Nah. Spain's economy is in the toilet and has little hope of getting better any time soon. Germany on the other hand is doing relatively well considering. Germany is also a much larger country than Spain and has more travel demand.

Twice the size, to be precise. Too often people forget Germany has 80 million inhabitants.
 
laca773
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 30):

EC is BA's subsidiary "OpenSkies" of which is an all premium carrier with limited low yielding traffic. When the AA/IAG JSA was approved, the DOT made it mandatory that EC be included in the JSA.
Quoting jumpjets (Reply 32):
It is Open Skies the BA subsidiary that IIRC flies solely between ORY and EWR.

Thanks for the clarification, TWA85 & jumpjets. I appreciate it. EC is so small, I hadn't even considered them as having this code.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 35):
IBeria seems to down play Barcelona, Madrid has plenty of expansion space which is why BA merged with IB, BCN should be to IB what MUC is to Lufthansa. BCN has plenty of Business ties with Latin America, IB should have flights to not only GRU but EZE, BOG, MEX, PTY and Santo Domingo.

They definitely do. I feel they actually kinda blew it when it comes to BCN. As we all know, their shorthaul is so bare bones, they could have easily developed BCN to a secondary hub since EZ and FR have large presences there ( I'm hoping IAG revamps IBs shorthaul/EU offering.).
 
TWA85
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:24 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 42):
They definitely do. I feel they actually kinda blew it when it comes to BCN. As we all know, their shorthaul is so bare bones, they could have easily developed BCN to a secondary hub since EZ and FR have large presences there ( I'm hoping IAG revamps IBs shorthaul/EU offering.).

I agree. As IAG continue to struggle with limited growth opportunities from LHR and MAD (althought not too limited at MAD), it only makes since for them to look for growth in other markets such as BCN, MAN, ORY etc. With the growth of VY from BCN, ORY, FCO and AMS, plus the already existing codeshare with BE from UK markets outside of LHR, maybe these could be the foundation for potential long-haul growth from these markets for IAG.
 
David_itl
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:52 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 22):
I don't see this happening unless a significant number of slots open @ LHR
Quoting TWA85 (Reply 43):
As IAG continue to struggle with limited growth opportunities from LHR and MAD (althought not too limited at MAD),

Perhaps I dreamt they bought BD and thereby acquired a load of new slots for them to do with what they want, Short-term more short-haul but with 787s and A380s on their way, the possibility presents itselt to futher expand its long-haul network. They wouldn't want to add anything extra from the UK so letting other carriers get the profits by utilising the robust BE network (specifically at MAN with the increased connectivity they started this year)
 
SANFan
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:03 pm

I wouldn't rule out a possible new SAN-Europe route in a couple of years from someone. I don't know if the AA/BA/IB alliance has any ideas, nor do I know what LH's or KL's levels of interest are these days, but with the success of BA at SAN, and the OW expansion here (JL to NRT for example), a new flight to a large hub somewhere on the Continent in 2 years or so wouldn't surprise me a whole lot. (Those beautiful Dreamliners sure get the imagination going around here!)

bb
 
LJ
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:10 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 40):
Nah. Spain's economy is in the toilet and has little hope of getting better any time soon. Germany on the other hand is doing relatively well considering. Germany is also a much larger country than Spain and has more travel demand.

Not only more travel demand, but also more business demand. AFAIK Bavaria has much more manufacturing and other industries than Catalonia (Spain's economy is much more Madrid centric than Germany where the economic activity is more spread over the economy). This means dual hubs will be more difficult to implement for IB than LH (same reason why AF doesn't have a second intercontinental hub).
 
UALWN
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:57 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 46):
AFAIK Bavaria has much more manufacturing and other industries than Catalonia (Spain's economy is much more Madrid centric than Germany where the economic activity is more spread over the economy).

Frankfurt is the financial capital of Germany, whereas Munich is the industrial capital, although indeed industry is spread out all over Germany. As for Spain, Madrid is the financial and industrial capital, with Barcelona a close second in industry and a distant (until recently, at least) second in finance.
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jfk777
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:27 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 45):
I wouldn't rule out a possible new SAN-Europe route in a couple of years from someone. I don't know if the AA/BA/IB alliance has any ideas, nor do I know what LH's or KL's levels of interest are these days, but with the success of BA at SAN, and the OW expansion here (JL to NRT for example), a new flight to a large hub somewhere on the Continent in 2 years or so wouldn't surprise me a whole lot. (Those beautiful Dreamliners sure get the imagination going around here!)

The issue with San Diego is not a market size issue but Linburgh field short runways. This why there has never been a nonstop to Europe ot Tokyo until now. The BA 777 has severe limits to its performance at SAN, another 1000 feet of runway would do wonders. The reason JAL is FINALLY launching flight to Tokyo is the 787, the new planes performance is NOT limited by SAN's short runways.

SAN is limited by being so close to downtown, why a old naval station or Air Force base in such a heavy military area can't replace Linburgh Field is beyond me.
 
laca773
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RE: AA/IAG Considering DFW-BCN And New Routes

Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 45):
I wouldn't rule out a possible new SAN-Europe route in a couple of years from someone. I don't know if the AA/BA/IB alliance has any ideas, nor do I know what LH's or KL's levels of interest are these days, but with the success of BA at SAN, and the OW expansion here (JL to NRT for example), a new flight to a large hub somewhere on the Continent in 2 years or so wouldn't surprise me a whole lot. (Those beautiful Dreamliners sure get the imagination going around here!)
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 48):

The issue with San Diego is not a market size issue but Linburgh field short runways. This why there has never been a nonstop to Europe ot Tokyo until now. The BA 777 has severe limits to its performance at SAN, another 1000 feet of runway would do wonders. The reason JAL is FINALLY launching flight to Tokyo is the 787, the new planes performance is NOT limited by SAN's short runways.

SAN is limited by being so close to downtown, why a old naval station or Air Force base in such a heavy military area can't replace Linburgh Field is beyond me.

The only other market I can see possibly working well from SAN, is FRA. JFK777 hit it on the bulls eye. SAN doesn't have the runway length to operate many of these sectors without the weight restrictions. At the same time, FRA could only work if LH were to buy 787s.

I didn't realize BA was operating SAN with significant restrictions. Wow.