ZKOJH
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Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:51 am

Some Harsh words from the Irish...


Qantas CEO Alan Joyce says he is "very pissed off" at Boeing over the delays to the 787 Dreamliner, which would have seen the airline enjoying significantly lower costs in fuel and maintenance compared to the Red Roo's current aging fleet.


Speaking with The Australian, Joyce expressed a frank degree of disatisfaction on the much-delayed Dreamliner and its impact on the airline's bottom line – especially for Qantas International, which last week flagged a loss of $450 million.


http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-ceo-v...-boeing-over-787-dreamliner-delays
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KELPkid
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:03 am

This is a risk you run when you sign up for a paper airplane (which the 787 was when QF said "we'll take a few"). They will be compensated according to the terms of their contract with Boeing for the delayed deliveries.
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Stitch
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:06 am

Well he was the one who decided to defer deliveries, allowing other carriers to move forward their own deliveries, so while he has a perfect right to be upset about the original delays, he could be close to having them now if he'd had chosen to.
 
N766UA
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:07 am

Can't blame Boeing for your airline sucking. Would the 787s have helped and is Boeing at fault for their delay? Maybe and yes. Does that have anything to do with Qantas posting a massive loss? Uh, nope.
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kiwiandrew

RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:10 am

Yawn! Join the queue Alan, a lot of other carriers ordered earlier and have waited longer than QF.
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:12 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):
Can't blame Boeing for your airline sucking.

Wow, QF sucks does it? An airline that has been consistently profitable, never entered bankruptcy and never had an aircraft hull loss? Interesting.. also has much higher standards than any American airline.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):
Does that have anything to do with Qantas posting a massive loss? Uh, nope.

Wrong, jesus, do some research! They haven't posted a loss for many, many years, and won't post a loss this year. QF International will, but QF Domestic and JQ mega profits will counter it, and still leave QF in the black.

QF has been particularly unlucky, first the 787 and then the A380, but QF problems lay elsewhere as well, but certainly on time deliveries would have helped.
 
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:20 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):

Yes that u-turn has probably cost QF just as much as the original delay. Why they ever pushed back delivery of their early 787's only to ask/wish for them back shortly after is an intriguing question.
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Polot
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:28 am

Quoting Truemanqld (Reply 5):
Wow, QF sucks does it? An airline that has been consistently profitable, never entered bankruptcy and never had an aircraft hull loss? Interesting.. also has much higher standards than any American airline.

Never had a hull loss with a jet...


I never understood QF's image here. You get completely contradicting reports on how good the service is (or the direction you are going) or what the (future) financial position of the airline depending on who you ask here. You would think many Australians would be proud of QF, yet there are a ton who think they do nothing right despite doing respectable.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:35 am

One wonders: is there room for a third WB manufacturer in the world? It seems that one issue is that neither A nor B really have competition except from each-other in the NB segment. The 787 has no real competitor. The A350 might face competition from the 777X series, but not for a while. The A380 has no real competitor.

Maybe the airlines need to goad an aerospace company into competing.
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par13del
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:36 am

Quoting Truemanqld (Reply 5):
Interesting.. also has much higher standards than any American airline.

I assume this is related to the fact that Boeing is an American company or an American posters comment?

Quoting Dan23 (Reply 6):
Yes that u-turn has probably cost QF just as much as the original delay

However, that was their decision, Qantas fans could certainely be pi** at them for the deferal.

Ever get the feeling that folks who are p*** at OEM's for production delays seem to believe that they do so just to pi** off their customers?
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:36 am

Quoting poLot (Reply 7):
Never had a hull loss with a jet...

True, my mistake, but still better than any other major, established airline. A real testament to QF and Australian aviation.

Quoting poLot (Reply 7):
You get completely contradicting reports on how good the service is (or the direction you are going)

I think QF service is usually very good, but on the odd occasion, as on all airlines, when it is bad, it is really bad. Obviously something they need to work on, but there domestic competition isn't exactly great either, when it comes to service that is.

Quoting poLot (Reply 7):
(future) financial position of the airline depending on who you ask here

I think most agree that QF is in trouble, but some here will gladly predict the death based on very little actual facts. The next 2-3 years will really test Alan Joyce and QF to see how there International Ops are going to survive. Domestically, and JQ wise, they are doing fantastic (though some believe they are rorting the figures... but based on absolutely no facts) and will continue to do well, DJ is expanding domestically but won't reach QF any time soon.

Quoting poLot (Reply 7):
You would think many Australians would be proud of QF, yet there are a ton who think they do nothing right despite doing respectable.

Most Australians do feel a sense of patriotism towards the national airline, there is nothing better than sitting half way around the world and seeing the flying Kangaroo. However, QF is no longer a government controlled airline, and therefore cannot please everyone, so this does put some Australians offside. However, QF is still very well liked, and the percentage in the general population that do like QF is much higher than it is on A.net.
 
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:38 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):
Can't blame Boeing for your airline sucking. Would the 787s have helped and is Boeing at fault for their delay? Maybe and yes. Does that have anything to do with Qantas posting a massive loss? Uh, nope.

   - even with TruemanQLD's comments. They did post a massive loss in international.

The 787s would have helped QF, but they would have also helped the competition.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Well he was the one who decided to defer deliveries

That was of the A380s though wasn't it? I think he figures that A380s are replacing 744s and 787s replacing A330s and 767s. It's a little simplistic, because there is carry over, if you know what I mean.

He cancelled some of the 787s a few years back. It's quite odd that he's now blaming the lack of these aircraft.
 
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:39 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Well he was the one who decided to defer deliveries

I'm not sure that's necessarily true. If he was the one who initiated that change, then he did it very quickly -- he became CEO late November 2008, with the deferment announcement within 8-10 weeks, which included Christmas/New Year breaks.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):
Does that have anything to do with Qantas posting a massive loss? Uh, nope.

Absolutely it has. A 20% increase in fuel costs this year would have been offset by the 787's 20% lower fuel consumption. It would appear that QF is either just breaking even or just below breaking even on most of their international routes, so a cost base just a few % lower makes all the difference.

Quoting Truemanqld (Reply 5):
never had an aircraft hull loss?

In the jet age... In any case, QF blows most airlines out of the water. Their product is up there with SQ etc when executed properly by the staff.

Quoting Truemanqld (Reply 5):
QF International will

And QF International has been performing poorly for years. Soaring fuel costs have reversed a small profit to become a (relatively) small loss.

Quoting Truemanqld (Reply 5):
QF has been particularly unlucky, first the 787 and then the A380, but QF problems lay elsewhere as well, but certainly on time deliveries would have helped.

  
 
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:41 am

Hey, N766UA, isn't the whole point of buying (and developing) new, more efficient planes to save costs and increase profits for airliners? So i think Mr. Joyce has a right to say that his airline would be in a better shape if the initial delays with the 787 and would have not happened... Thats why you buy new planes, to be more profitable, or am i wrong here?

I can only agree with Truemanqld and poLot....

i would always prefer to fly QF, rather than SQ and even more than AA or UA... sorry, just my opinion.
 
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:42 am

Quoting ZKOJH (Thread starter):

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce says he is "very pissed off" at Boeing over the delays to the 787 Dreamliner, which would have seen the airline enjoying significantly lower costs in fuel and maintenance compared to the Red Roo's current aging fleet.


Speaking with The Australian, Joyce expressed a frank degree of disatisfaction on the much-delayed Dreamliner and its impact on the airline's bottom line – especially for Qantas International, which last week flagged a loss of $450 million.

Well should have ordered the 777 way back when, but thats another issue.

So far as this thread is concerned, AJ says this.... is this the same AJ that plans to give the first 15 787s to Jetstar??? How is giving the first 15 787s to Jetstar (who have a fairly new fleet of A330s already BTW) going to help QF/"Red Roo" to lower its costs and reduce maintenance??

Basically its just AJ starting to feel the heat so looking for someone to blame. Yes Boeing should have delivered the 787 earlier. That is a risk airlines take with a new type. QF didn't even have to buy 777 they could have leased them until such time as Boeing delivers on the 787. By that time they would have seen how good they were and ordered more to fill the gap between the 787 and the A380 (as SQ/EK/etc etc) have done.
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:44 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 12):
I'm not sure that's necessarily true. If he was the one who initiated that change, then he did it very quickly -- he became CEO late November 2008, with the deferment announcement within 8-10 weeks, which included Christmas/New Year breaks.

He may not have initiated the change, but 8-10 weeks is plenty of time to defer any possible change on the status of the order until he was sure that it was necessary.
 
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:45 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 12):
Absolutely it has. A 20% increase in fuel costs this year would have been offset by the 787's 20% lower fuel consumption. It would appear that QF is either just breaking even or just below breaking even on most of their international routes, so a cost base just a few % lower makes all the difference.

If every aircraft in their fleet was a 787 thats true, but otherwise a few frames would not have had a significant impact on the bottom line. AI and QF are just looking for scapegoats. Every airline in the world deals with the increase in gas prices and just about all of them don't have 787s.
 
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:46 am

He certainly has a right to be pissed at a company that chronically mismanaged a high profile program, and a right to contractual compensation--I think everyone that ordered the 787 feels the same.

Quoting par13del (Reply 9):
Ever get the feeling that folks who are p*** at OEM's for production delays seem to believe that they do so just to pi** off their customers?

Boeing blew the program to the point it trained everyone--carriers, analysts, press, everyone--to have a pavlovian response of disbelief to any official Boeing PR.
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:56 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 12):
I'm not sure that's necessarily true. If he was the one who initiated that change, then he did it very quickly -- he became CEO late November 2008, with the deferment announcement within 8-10 weeks, which included Christmas/New Year breaks.

QF Group was literally changing it's mind on a weekly basis back in early 2011, first saying they would take them, then saying no, then saying yes - but for JQ, then saying no.

Ben Sandilands posted recently that he's heard JQ and QF have 787s starting assembly.   

NH today stated they're seeing over a 20% reduction in fuel burn on NRT-FRA with their sub-par 787-8s compared to their 767-300ERs, so perhaps that triggered Mr. Joyce's comments.
 
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:07 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Well he was the one who decided to defer deliveries, allowing other carriers to move forward their own deliveries, so while he has a perfect right to be upset about the original delays, he could be close to having them now if he'd had chosen to.

Yep, when you F-up, blame the supplier!

Quoting qf002 (Reply 12):
I'm not sure that's necessarily true. If he was the one who initiated that change, then he did it very quickly -- he became CEO late November 2008, with the deferment announcement within 8-10 weeks, which included Christmas/New Year breaks.

He would be a worthless CEO if he didn't feel he had the right to make a course change even in week 1. Look what happened when QR bought into Cargolux. They asserted themselves immediately.

And once again, QF should have ordered 777s 15 years ago. Not having them left them with only one option for long-haul: Jumbo (now superJumbo as well). That's not Joyce's fault, but it is QF's fault.
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ODwyerPW
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:14 am

Eeveryone's 787s are late except the ones in service with NH and a handful of others. Therefore, most competitors are at the same economic disadvantage. It's not like ALL of ALan Joyce's competitors have been flying around in airplanes enjoying a 20% reduced fuel burn this year, leaving him the only one sucking wind with old iron.

It has been really difficult for each of the airlines. All of them went to their respective boards to receive the go ahead to purchase newer frames based on cost reductions they all hoped to be enjoying for the last 2+ years now. But at this point the pain is being felt fairly evenly (perhaps, with the exception of those who were willing to take the subpar early frames) by most airliners.

We are going to continue to hear allot of outrage, posturing, etc, as all of the airlines want greater compensation to compensate operational losses due to higher fuel costs (consumption and price).
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:23 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
NH today stated they're seeing over a 20% reduction in fuel burn on NRT-FRA with their sub-par 787-8s compared to their 767-300ERs, so perhaps that triggered Mr. Joyce's comments.

Stitch you beat me to it .... From MarketWatch :

"As the launch customer of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, ANA took delivery of the first of its 55 B787s on order in last September, and is now operating seven of the aircraft on domestic flights and one on an international route between Tokyo Haneda and Frankfurt. Mr. Ito said the 787 twinjets, which carry around 220 to 250 passengers, help the airline save around 21% of fuel consumption on each flight"

I am really excited to see what the later build birds can do with the additional PiPs. As for QF ... I would only think it is fair to point out that QF has bet its future on 2 aircraft that have struggled with their entry and obviously its hurting.

Did Boeing mess up - yup.
Did Airbus mess up - yup.
Did QF mess up - yup.

Will QF be just fine - probably.
 
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:28 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 14):
So far as this thread is concerned, AJ says this.... is this the same AJ that plans to give the first 15 787s to Jetstar??? How is giving the first 15 787s to Jetstar (who have a fairly new fleet of A330s already BTW) going to help QF/"Red Roo" to lower its costs and reduce maintenance??

So that the A330s can go back into QF's fleet and replaced 744s  

It just sounds like a big circle.. AJ wants someone to blame other than himself for acts he is responsible for and what better way to do that than to blame the manufacturer. At least the unions won't get up in arms about that one!

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 19):

Yep, when you F-up, blame the supplier!

   The easiest way to go about it!
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:35 am

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 20):

What puzzled me was the fact QF is crying wolf due to the B787 delays and on the other hand you had AI demanding compensation and refusing delivery of the aircraft which apparently will be the savor of the flying kangaroo...

I've said it once before and it's been said many times before, QF could've benefited by ordering the B77L & B77W as opposed to placing all their eggs in the one basket... This case it was the A380 & B787 basket...

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ha763
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:45 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 12):
I'm not sure that's necessarily true. If he was the one who initiated that change, then he did it very quickly -- he became CEO late November 2008, with the deferment announcement within 8-10 weeks, which included Christmas/New Year breaks.

I wouldn't be surprised if Alan Joyce made or pushed for a decision on the deferral of their early 787s. The industry was facing pressure from rising fuel cost, the global financial crisis, and a downturn in travel. Qantas needed to save money and they chose to defer the 787 deliveries. Also, Alan Joyce would have had intimate knowledge of what was going on with the 787 order prior to becoming CEO at Qantas. He was the CEO at Jetstar, who was supposed to have received the first 15 deliveries of the Qantas order.
 
F9Animal
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:01 am

QF has every right to be pissed at Boeing. Boeing did not deliver as said. Boeing royally made a mess of the 787. Boeing should compensate all airlines that ordered the plane. I have no sympathy for how Boeing handled the 787. Boeing ouchsourced so much, it nearly destroyed the program. I am in full support of QF and the frustration. QF has been a heck of a Boeing customer, and Boeing should take care of their customer.
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:02 am

Quoting ZKOJH (Thread starter):
Joyce expressed a frank degree of disatisfaction on the much-delayed Dreamliner and its impact on the airline's bottom line – especially for Qantas International, which last week flagged a loss of $450 million.
Quoting PHXA340 (Reply 21):
Mr. Ito said the 787 twinjets, which carry around 220 to 250 passengers, help the airline save around 21% of fuel consumption on each flight"

Wow. Something is off in my model of the 787 if that is indeed the case.

These are triple spool engines we are discussing. A triple spool has a nice climb advantage over the 767's twin spool engines... I do not know *exactly* how good the T1000's climb advantage is, but this indicates better than I believed. In other words, it pushes out the range of a *at spec* T1000 has the same fuel burn as an *at spec* GEnX. In other words, the range where the GEnX's planned better cruise fuel burn comes out ahead of the T1000's superior climb fuel burn.

We all know both engines are below spec (but the GEnX is more below spec than the T1000). But if ANA is saving 21% in fuel (on a short mission), than the 787 is doing very well in fuel burn.

Note: I assume that is fuel burn per passenger? (The question mark as I am not certain.)

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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:09 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 14):
Well should have ordered the 777 way back when, but thats another issue.

I think Qantas should have ordered the original A350 back then. A main reason they didn't was because Boeing "found"earlier delivery slots for the 787 - in 2008.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...triumphs+in+twinjet+tussle-203664/

"Qantas chief executive officer Geoff Dixon says that a guarantee from Boeing of first deliveries in 2008 was a “big determinant” in its selection – the A350 is not available until mid-2010 at the earliest."

That didn't work out so well.

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F9Animal
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:10 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 3):
Can't blame Boeing for your airline sucking. Would the 787s have helped and is Boeing at fault for their delay? Maybe and yes. Does that have anything to do with Qantas posting a massive loss? Uh, nope.

Qantas has every right to blame Boeing for the bottom line loss. Had Boeing delivered on time, the 787 could have really impacted Qantas and the financials. As for Qantas sucking? Really? Qantas might be having some financial issues at the moment, but they are one fine airline.

Airlines have to take care of passengers when a delay is something the airline has control over. Boeing should compensate its 787 customers, since the delay was all Boeing's fault. It is good business, and Boeing should do the right thing.
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Hamlet69
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:32 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 27):
I think Qantas should have ordered the original A350 back then. A main reason they didn't was because Boeing "found"earlier delivery slots for the 787 - in 2008.http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...triumphs+in+twinjet+tussle-203664/"Qantas chief executive officer Geoff Dixon says that a guarantee from Boeing of first deliveries in 2008 was a “big determinant” in its selection – the A350 is not available until mid-2010 at the earliest."That didn't work out so well.

"That didn't work out so well."

I see. So what you're saying is that it is your belief that instead of the 787, QF should have ordered an aircraft that was later cancelled. Of course, those orders would have switched over to the A350XWB, which is now also coming to market late (and later than QF will be receiving 787's).

Why, exactly, does this make sense?

I'm sorry, but Stitch nailed it at the get-go: QF deferred delivery of their 787's. Did Boeing cock-up the program? Of course. But bi*ing now about delayed deliveries when you chose to delay them even more is asinine.

I've long had great admiration for QF. They have a tremendous historical reputation, and for very good reason. However, I honestly don't think they have the same 'mojo' they once did.


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wedgetail737
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:40 am

It almost sounds like this thread is slowly turning into an A vs. B contest. Everyone understands that Boeing hasn't been very good at meeting their commitments in regards to the 787. The A350 is already 2-1/2 years late and they haven't performed static testing. What about QF's disappointment in A380 with the recurrence of wing cracks???

QF could have improved their bottomline by replacing their 763's with more A330's and perhaps retire some of their 744's for 777-300ERs.

The big difference today is that the 787 is a certified airplane in revenue service. The A350 is still cracking the ice in strength testing. We'll see how good the A350 will turn out to be.

You're all right!!! QF has the right to be pissed off at Boeing for the 787 delays. Who isn't? But all you armchair CEO's out there, how can you say the delay on 787 has all to do with QF's financial woes??? Could it be some bad management decisions??? Could it be too many failed routes??? Could it simply be the reduced flying public?? Increased competition along with the reduced profit margins???
 
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:47 am

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 29):
I see. So what you're saying is that it is your belief that instead of the 787, QF should have ordered an aircraft that was later cancelled.

If Qantas had ordered the aircraft it might not have been cancelled. The original A350 already had 200 orders - the Qantas order would have boosted that to a respectable number.

It was - in large part - because of the loss of the Qantas order that then CEO Dr. Humbert at Airbus panicked about that A350.

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 29):
I'm sorry, but Stitch nailed it at the get-go: QF deferred delivery of their 787's.

Sorry Qantas did not "defer delivery of their 787's."

They deferred 15 of them, not all of them, and cancelled 15 more - a year after Boeing had missed the first delivery dates and was providing no guarantee for the future.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...ntas-defers-cancels-boeing-7.html/

"Qantas Airways announced Friday (Thursday afternoon in Dallas) that it was deferring delivery of 15 of its Boeing 787s for four years. It also canceled its order for 15 of the jets, saving it $3 billion based on list prices."

I'd have deferred some at that point too, to try and try and fill the hole and run the business as effectively as possible under the circumstances.

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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:57 am

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 16):
If every aircraft in their fleet was a 787 thats true, but otherwise a few frames would not have had a significant impact on the bottom line

QF would have had their 789's in 2009 if Boeing hadn't screwed up so badly. They would have close to all 35 by now, which could have replaced the A333's and all their 744's leaving just A380's and 787's. So the entire fleet would have a significant fuel advantage,

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 22):
So that the A330s can go back into QF's fleet and replaced 744s

The A330's will be replacing domestic 767's, not 744's.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 30):

The suggestion was for the original A350, which would have been in service years ago...

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 30):
QF could have improved their bottomline by replacing their 763's with more A330's and perhaps retire some of their 744's for 777-300ERs.

The capital outlay would have been too large to be of benefit. QF would probably have been wise to lease half a dozen more A330's around 2009-10 to use internationally (given they already own enough to cover domestic 767 replacements), but the 77W was too late. They needed to invest in the 777 in the 90's...

Or rather, A340's...
 
fiscal
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:00 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 22):
It just sounds like a big circle.. AJ wants someone to blame other than himself for acts he is responsible for and what better way to do that than to blame the manufacturer. At least the unions won't get up in arms about that one!

A bit harsh. The delivery of the 787 is all about saving costs, nothing else. The passengers will still have the same experience as they get now. There is nothing new inside to excite the passenger. The 787 is all about the operator.

So, how can he be blamed for fuel price rises. He has not stated any lies. He is just using facts that he has to hand, to explain that costs could have been less if the airframes were delivered on time.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 23):
I've said it once before and it's been said many times before, QF could've benefited by ordering the B77L & B77W as opposed to placing all their eggs in the one basket... This case it was the A380 & B787 basket...

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and you may well be right, but the decision was made. In some respects it was one of those "fork in the road" things that make it very hard and expensive to change midstream. By the time things started looking bleak, the GFC was in full swing, and we could not afford to change our minds.
 
travelhound
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:36 am

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 29):

I think a more accrate desciption of events would be QF decided to cancel / delay 787's and buy / lease additional A330's to fill the void associated with the 787 delays. Lets not rush in too quickly!

That being said there was always a fair amount of risk associated with the QF fleet straegy.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:03 am

Quoting fiscal (Reply 33):
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and you may well be right, but the decision was made. In some respects it was one of those "fork in the road" things that make it very hard and expensive to change midstream. By the time things started looking bleak, the GFC was in full swing, and we could not afford to change our minds.

It's hardly hindsight when we have been saying this for many, many years. It's called being right at the time and being proven so as time has passed.

QF was on the design team for the 777, but didn't buy them. That was a big mistake, no matter how you slice it.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
qf340500
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:07 am

its still hindsight, and for that it is not really helping  
 
laca773
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:08 am

Quoting Truemanqld (Reply 10):
I think most agree that QF is in trouble, but some here will gladly predict the death based on very little actual facts. The next 2-3 years will really test Alan Joyce and QF to see how there International Ops are going to survive. Domestically, and JQ wise, they are doing fantastic (though some believe they are rorting the figures... but based on absolutely no facts) and will continue to do well, DJ is expanding domestically but won't reach QF any time soon.

  

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 19):

And once again, QF should have ordered 777s 15 years ago. Not having them left them with only one option for long-haul: Jumbo (now superJumbo as well). That's not Joyce's fault, but it is QF's fault.

  

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 30):

QF could have improved their bottomline by replacing their 763's with more A330's and perhaps retire some of their 744's for 777-300ERs.

Exactly! I'm sure Boeing would have given a nice deal on 77W/77Ls because of this mess, but it seems like QF didn't ask or Boeing didn't offer them. If QF had been more assertive, versus being passive aggressive with this, they would have a much more efficient fleet. I think it's safe to say the majority would agree the 77W/77L are ideal planes for QF and when they decided to not order them, it's hurt them a great deal in addition to the problems with the 787 program. It also doesn't help QF that the middle east carriers are so strong, and have much more fuel efficient a/c to deploy on their longhauls, or shall I say, they have a great deal more flexibility compared to QF. The same can be said with their Asian competitors , CX, SQ, TG.
 
davs5032
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:34 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 32):
QF would have had their 789's in 2009 if Boeing hadn't screwed up so badly. They would have close to all 35 by now, which could have replaced the A333's and all their 744's leaving just A380's and 787's. So the entire fleet would have a significant fuel advantage,

True, but as someone above also said, many of their competitors are similarly affected by delays for 787's that are on order to them as well. Hedging your risks when planning your future fleet is something that can minimize the damage of delays like this, so QF's mgmt isn't completely innocent for their current situation. Obviously, Boeing royally screwed up here as the delay was so loooong, but the risk of some delay should have been foreseeable, as this was such an innovative design to being with. QF's fleet inflexibility is primarily what's losing them $$ to middle east/asian competitors...much more so than not having the 787.
 
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zeke
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:47 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Well he was the one who decided to defer deliveries, allowing other carriers to move forward their own deliveries, so while he has a perfect right to be upset about the original delays, he could be close to having them now if he'd had chosen to.

I cannot believe how bias this post is.

Fact is QF has been let down by both OEMs, but more so by Boeing due to the shear number of frames that have been delayed and the cumulative amount of the delays. Boeing is still unable to produce the aircraft they ordered by QF, Boeing is still YEARS away from making a 787-9 that will meet the contractual requirements. It is a bit rich to blame the customer for that.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 11):

The 787s would have helped QF, but they would have also helped the competition.

QF have no current plans to operate the 787, all 787s at this stage have been earmarked for the Jetstar group. The first 787s for the QF group will be based in Singapore, more than likely initially replacing the A330s services.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 11):
That was of the A380s though wasn't it? I think he figures that A380s are replacing 744s and 787s replacing A330s and 767s.

The last annual report had QF international only operating A380s and A330s by the end of this decade. I am not sure how the split of domestic and international will have on fleet plans, I would think it will return to a similar mix as the TAA days.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 19):

And once again, QF should have ordered 777s 15 years ago.

There was no 777 suitable for the QF network 15 years ago, SQ is getting rid of their that are that old. The 777 is not a magic pill, airlines still go broke operating them. Fact is, all airlines are having trouble making money at the moment, even those with large 777 fleets.

QF could look at an updated 777 if Boeing ever offers it, or the A350. Buying into the 77W today would not give them any real advancement, the time to order them would have been 8 years ago, however at that time, no one was able to predict today's oil price, the dynamics of the market, or how late the OEMs would be.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 35):

QF was on the design team for the 777, but didn't buy them. That was a big mistake, no matter how you slice it.

It was not a big mistake, if the 787 and A380s were on time, they would be in a different position.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
Gemuser
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:25 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 35):
QF was on the design team for the 777, but didn't buy them. That was a big mistake, no matter how you slice it.

In your opinion!
In my opinion the B772 was never satisfactory for QF needs and it was not worth the cost of introducing a new fleet type. The design team did not produce a result suitable for all members, that's what happens with design teams! I don't blame Boeing for this, they went with the majority, which is reasonable, but its not fair to blame the two airlines who didn't order because of this.
The B77W may have been satisfactory for QF, however the B787s were on order by or around the time the W was released and going with the NEWER, MORE FUEL EFFICIENT model was a pretty reasonable decision. That the new design didn't and still hasn't arrived is entirely Boeing's fault.

IMHO, QF avoiding the B772 was a very good idea, at the time, and if the B787 had been delivered less than 2 years late it would be recognised as such.

Can we give the "Why didn't QF/QF should order the B777" mantra a rest please?

Gemuser
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na
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:51 am

I second gemuser. This "they should have bought 777s" talk is rubbish. When QF ordered 787s they were doing well, 772s would have seemed like an anachronistic short-sighted choice, and the timing seemed perfect to replace the now increasingly obsolete and incompetitive 767 fleet. Its Boeing who messed up and which is responsible for the massive delay. There may have been some mismanagement at QF, but it wasnt fleet planning. Old 744s are being replaced by A380s, so the argument for 77Ws is mute.
 
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NZ107
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:13 am

Quoting fiscal (Reply 33):
A bit harsh. The delivery of the 787 is all about saving costs, nothing else. The passengers will still have the same experience as they get now. There is nothing new inside to excite the passenger. The 787 is all about the operator.

So, how can he be blamed for fuel price rises. He has not stated any lies. He is just using facts that he has to hand, to explain that costs could have been less if the airframes were delivered on time.

Of course he can't be blamed for fuel price rises. I never said I blamed him for fuel prices. But in saying that, he was around in the industry when the oil prices last had a huge spike, right before the GFC in mid 2008. After seeing that prices could effectively go through the roof, one must surely think about the efficiency of the aircraft. The earlier the 787s are delivered, the more you can save regardless on the price of oil. They have a big 767/A330 fleet. Yet they defer the 787s but ALSO gift JQ the first few. Since when did a subsidiary become more important than the parent? Yeah, the 787 is all about the operator - no good to QF if they're not going to be operating them for a few more years.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
vaus77w
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:22 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 14):
So far as this thread is concerned, AJ says this.... is this the same AJ that plans to give the first 15 787s to Jetstar??? How is giving the first 15 787s to Jetstar (who have a fairly new fleet of A330s already BTW) going to help QF/"Red Roo" to lower its costs and reduce maintenance??

I agree that the 787-8's should go to QF domestic to replace 763s. I know the A330's are good planes, but hasn't it already been said they aren't efficient for domestic runs? Shiny new 787s could bring great in-seat IFE, great interior product and quieter/smoother ride, especially trans-con runs, to fend off Virgin expanding with A330s. Instead they get well-used JQ hand-me-down A330s with no in-seat IFE. Plus JQ already have a new relatively fuel-efficient fleet, so I think QF has a much greater need for those planes than JQ.

Quoting zeke (Reply 39):
QF have no current plans to operate the 787, all 787s at this stage have been earmarked for the Jetstar group. The first 787s for the QF group will be based in Singapore, more than likely initially replacing the A330s services.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 11):
That was of the A380s though wasn't it? I think he figures that A380s are replacing 744s and 787s replacing A330s and 767s.

The last annual report had QF international only operating A380s and A330s by the end of this decade. I am not sure how the split of domestic and international will have on fleet plans, I would think it will return to a similar mix as the TAA days.

I know they said that, but I find it hard to believe QF's international future fleet is the A330 and A380. Their first batch of A330s will be nearing retirement by the end of this decade. Surely they will be replaced by 787s.
 
goosebayguy
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:35 am

If every QF competitor were already flying 787's then he might begin to have a point. However they are not and they have an equal cost base to QF in machines operated. The fault lies with QF whose problems have multiplied since off shoring maintenance and not being more aggressive against the Mid East carriers.
 
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zeke
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:57 am

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 43):

They may continue to keep the 787 with the Jetstar group, and move to the A350 or 777 successor, I think it is 3-5 years before the need o make that decision.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 44):

Off shoring maintenance I think was always necessary, tax arrangements and staff costs are just too high in Australia. As for not being aggressive against the middle east carriers, that is one fight hey are geographically not able to win.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:05 am

QF has walked into a perfect storm.

Boeing has seriously let it down with the delays, as competitors have stolen the march into its core markets on the back of more competitive cost structures.

Its management have struggled to adapt, as unions pile on the pressure from every angle to get more and more from less.
 
sweair
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:17 am

The 77W would have been perfect to replace the 744s with. Is it the GE engines that is the problem? They could have leased some for all these years B cocked up with the 787.

And they deferred A380s as well I read. Blaming going around, that CEO should be fired a long time ago IMO.
 
Flyingsottsman
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:09 am

I think AJ is starting to feel the heat in the kitchen now, it didnt seem to worry him to much at first but he must be very quietly muttering to himself F****** Boeing they have realy screwed us up. Right through all the troubles its been "wait till the 787 comes", well Alan you better hope that this plane does what Boeing says it does and hope its been worth the wait.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 35):
QF was on the design team for the 777, but didn't buy them. That was a big mistake, no matter how you slice it.

Yes very true.

I think the lesson for Alan Joyce or any CEO's of airlines are dont order an aircraft when they are just on the drawing board wait till they are built and tested then get in line and buy them.
 
fiscal
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RE: Qantas CEO "very P*ssed Off" With Boeing Over 787

Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:11 am

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 44):
The fault lies with QF whose problems have multiplied since off shoring maintenance and not being more aggressive against the Mid East carriers.

It is an interesting comment you make, but just what can Qantas do to provide a better answer than the ME airlines. How can they offer more, without going broke?

What marketing message is going to win over Australian's hearts where they would be willing to pay that extra bit, just to fly Qantas?