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RWA380
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Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:47 pm

I understand the entire reason that EWR being more desirable because of it's proximity to Manhattan, what I've wondered is, why not JFK? as they do have connection opportunities on DL & AA all over the world from JFK. Is this because SEA-JFK is already flown by a couple other carriers, one being DL?
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hiflyeras
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:59 pm

It's because when AS started service to the NYC metro area they were code share partners with CO. The partnerships with DL and AA didn't exist (but did with NW). The SEA-EWR flight on AS was code-shared with CO, as were CO flights SEA-IAH. That partnership ended about 4-5 years ago....AS stayed at EWR and started their own service to IAH. In fact the start of SEA-IAH might have been the nail in the coffin for AS and CO's relationship.

I'd love to see AS start service to JFK but it's well-covered out of SEA by remaining partners DL and AA. But never say never.
 
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Polot
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:00 pm

I think at one point Continental and Alaska codeshared and had a mileage partnership. I believe it ended around the time CO left Skyteam and started getting closer to UA.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Would it ever be in the cards for AS to serve both airports? I'd imagine not, but I'd love to see AS take on more domestic flying for it's AA and DL partnerships. IE...PDX-DFW, lessening AA's need to provide already minimal service into the Northwest. DL is a lot more entrenched in the NW and IMHO would benefit less from increased AS flying to cover domestic routes they already operate.
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klwright69
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:28 pm

The question has been answered above, but no reason why a JFK and a EWR can't coexist, we could see it in the future.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:38 pm

Isn't JFK slotted at certain times as well? There just may not be enough room at JFK for AS right now.

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 4):
The question has been answered above, but no reason why a JFK and a EWR can't coexist, we could see it in the future.

I agree. I think AS could fly to both EWR and JFK and still do well.

It's too bad that LGA doesn't have any beyond-perimeter routes (or do they). I think AS would be right on it and have the case to be there.
 
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:40 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Thread starter):
I understand the entire reason that EWR being more desirable because of it's proximity to Manhattan,

Just want to point out that most Manhattanites use LGA/JFK and not EWR. so your statement is not correct.

Other than that... a good topic question you've posed (and those above have answered).
 
hiflyeras
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:46 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 5):
It's too bad that LGA doesn't have any beyond-perimeter routes (or do they). I think AS would be right on it and have the case to be there.

That I would LOVE to see! I know LGA is slot controlled but I wonder like the original poster if there are restrictions as to where the flight originates into LGA.
 
FlyingFan18
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:50 pm

If JFK is slot controlled (I forget if it is) is there even a possibility of AS getting the slots needed? Also which terminal would they go in? I doubt Delta would give up space especially with the ongoing construction. Maybe AA? Anyway I think Alaska could bring great stuff to JFK and would love to fly it out!
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 7):
That I would LOVE to see! I know LGA is slot controlled but I wonder like the original poster if there are restrictions as to where the flight originates into LGA.

There are no exemptions to the perimeter rule other than DEN, due to DEN having service to LGA before the rule was implemented (the only city in that situation). Nonstop flights to SEA from LGA are not going to happen.

EDIT: There are no restrictions on Saturdays, but I doubt AS is interested in once weekly services.

[Edited 2012-06-13 06:57:33]
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 5):
It's too bad that LGA doesn't have any beyond-perimeter routes (or do they). I think AS would be right on it and have the case to be there.

Nothing close to the DCA free-for-all beyond-perimeter permits that Congress_dba_DOT is granting people left and right.

And even if LGA is a bit closer to midtown Manhattan, it's a wash for pax coming from downtown Manhattan (vs. EWR), and the traffic congestion to LGA and absolutely antiquated CTB of LGA are major thumbs-down
 
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:57 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 6):

Just want to point out that most Manhattanites use LGA/JFK and not EWR. so your statement is not correct

Most of my clients that lived in New York City, would use EWR as opposed to JFK under most circumstances, in fact they were Elites with Continental. As they were celebrities, they flew to LA fairly often and they preferred CO from EWR vs UA or AA from JFK. So my statement is based upon personal experience and those of my well travelled clients.

I personally have used all 3 airports and find LGA the closest but congested, JFK is a fair distance, EWR seemed closer and a nicer facility, last I was there was when AS had first started flying to EWR.
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:08 pm

"And even if LGA is a bit closer to midtown Manhattan, it's a wash for pax coming from downtown Manhattan (vs. EWR), and the traffic congestion to LGA and absolutely antiquated CTB of LGA are major thumbs-down"

Really, no one uses LGA for the CTB. It is close and convenient. So much closer then JFK or EWR...it always wins hands down.

And that is from uptown, downtown...whereever in the city (Manhattan). Because to get to Jersey, you need to go through a miserable tunnel that routinely has 45-60 min delays just to get into the tube. (No joke...welcome to NY)


"As they were celebrities, they flew to LA fairly often and they preferred CO from EWR vs UA or AA from JFK. So my statement is based upon personal experience and those of my well travelled clients."

Personal experience aside, turn on TMZ tonight and see what airport and terminal they are parked at to see the celebrities. It is quite interesting... AA at LAX, AA at JFK.
 
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:19 pm

As to the OP's original question, AS would prefer to fly into LGA. Since they are prohibited their next choice is EWR,

Higher percentage of business travelers than JFK

Higher average fares than JFK

Less competition compared to JFK.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):

Personal experience aside, turn on TMZ tonight and see what airport and terminal they are parked at to see the celebrities. It is quite interesting... AA at LAX, AA at JFK.

Celebrities who need to be photographed fly into JFK, celebrities who don't need to be photographed fly into EWR or TEB.
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:48 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Thread starter):
It's because when AS started service to the NYC metro area they were code share partners with CO. The partnerships with DL and AA didn't exist (but did with NW).

When did the AS-AA partnership start? I thought it existed before AS started the SEA-EWR service in 2002.

Other factors that likely influenced AS's decision:

EWR serves the Northern New Jersey market better than JFK - many major Fortune 500 companies (J&J, Merck, Medco, Prudential, Honeywell, etc.) are based in NJ and many foreign multinationals have their U.S. HQs in New Jersey. Not as many are in Long Island/Queens/Brooklyn, where JFK would be preferred.

CO was the only airline on SEA-EWR, whereas AS would face B6, AA, and DL at JFK.

AirTrain JFK opened at the end of 2003 - before that, public transportation to JFK was more difficult. AirTrain Newark opened in 1996.

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 1):
In fact the start of SEA-IAH might have been the nail in the coffin for AS and CO's relationship.

More importantly, CO was joining *A.
 
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:25 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):
Personal experience aside, turn on TMZ tonight and see what airport and terminal they are parked at to see the celebrities. It is quite interesting... AA at LAX, AA at JFK.
Quoting STT757 (Reply 13):
Celebrities who need to be photographed fly into JFK, celebrities who don't need to be photographed fly into EWR or TEB.

Almost all celebrities who fly commercial fly JFK-LAX on AA (with some on UA). Real celebrities would not fly CO/UA out of EWR. Not that this fact debases the central arguement because lots of people in Manhattan prefer EWR, it depends on lots of factors but EWR is certainly as attractive as JFK from Manhattan depending on where you live, where you fly, airline preference, mode of transport to the airport, time of you day you travel, etc.

But the celebrities example is the worst, since they fly AA or UA due to the 3-class service (they want to sit in "real" first) and the SAG contract with AA.

But we digress...
 
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:29 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 11):
Most of my clients that lived in New York City, would use EWR as opposed to JFK under most circumstances, in fact they were Elites with Continental. As they were celebrities, they flew to LA fairly often and they preferred CO from EWR vs UA or AA from JFK. So my statement is based upon personal experience and those of my well travelled clients.

Port Authority statistics show that Manhattan originating pax use LGA/JFK by a very wide margin compared to EWR.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):
And that is from uptown, downtown...whereever in the city (Manhattan). Because to get to Jersey, you need to go through a miserable tunnel that routinely has 45-60 min delays just to get into the tube. (No joke...welcome to NY)

Try reaching LGA from downtown Manhattan at Friday 5pm and see when you can arrive. At least with EWR and JFK there's the option of rail, which is a heck more reliable to arrive on-time than congestion on any highway.
 
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 16):
Port Authority statistics show that Manhattan originating pax use LGA/JFK by a very wide margin compared to EWR.

The latest statistics show EWR draws 34.3% of it's traffic from New York City, 27.5% from the Borough of Manhattan. That's pretty good no? 34.3%.

EWR.PDF" target="_blank">http://www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-traffic/MAR2012_EWR.PDF

In contrast JFK draws a whopping 3.4% of it's travelers from New Jersey.

JFK.PDF" target="_blank">http://www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-traffic/MAR2012_JFK.PDF

As pointed out EWR has the advantage of drawing business travelers from New York City as well as New Jersey. Honeywell for instance, who is a major supplier to Boeing, has their corporate headquarters in Madison New Jersey, I'm sure that was a major reasoning for AS chosing EWR vs JFK. As I pointed out, NYC O&D traffic will travel to EWR, New Jersey travelers will not travel to JFK.
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N62NA
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:10 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 18):
The latest statistics show EWR draws 34.3% of it's traffic from New York City, 27.5% from the Borough of Manhattan. That's pretty good no? 34.3%.

Yes, but that has no relevance to the incorrect statement made by the OP:

Quoting RWA380 (Thread starter):
I understand the entire reason that EWR being more desirable because of it's proximity to Manhattan,
 
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 19):
Quoting RWA380 (Thread starter):
I understand the entire reason that EWR being more desirable because of it's proximity to Manhattan,

Proximity to Manhattan and the Northern New Jersey market, which has more corporations than Long Island. Again look at Honeywell in Madison New Jersey. Besides the aviation connection there's the bio-medical/pharmaceutical connection. I was just in Seattle last Summer and the South Shore of Lake Union has totally been transformed since my last visit in 2000, it's now a huge center for bio-medical research. There are strong business ties to the medical/pharma community in New Jersey.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...nology/2003584026_webikaria22.html
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Airontario
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 19):
Yes, but that has no relevance to the incorrect statement made by the OP:

Quoting RWA380 (Thread starter):I understand the entire reason that EWR being more desirable because of it's proximity to Manhattan,

It isn't an incorrect statement if it's correct. The fact is EWR is close to Manhattan. It is also much easier to get to EWR from Manhattan that it is to get to JFK from Manhattan.
 
N62NA
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting Airontario (Reply 21):
It isn't an incorrect statement if it's correct. The fact is EWR is close to Manhattan. It is also much easier to get to EWR from Manhattan that it is to get to JFK from Manhattan.

Originally statement:

Quoting Airontario (Reply 21):
I understand the entire reason that EWR being more desirable because of it's proximity to Manhattan,

Please read the above carefully. It was stated that EWR is more desirable because of its proximity to Manhattan. Are you saying it is more desirable / preferred by pax from Manhattan? Because if that is what you mean, then that is incorrect.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
Proximity to Manhattan and the Northern New Jersey market, which has more corporations than Long Island. Again look at Honeywell in Madison New Jersey. Besides the aviation connection there's the bio-medical/pharmaceutical connection. I was just in Seattle last Summer and the South Shore of Lake Union has totally been transformed since my last visit in 2000, it's now a huge center for bio-medical research. There are strong business ties to the medical/pharma community in New Jersey.

Please, don't start the "EWR Chamber of Commerce" speeches. You've now strayed way beyond what I pointed out in the OP's statement.



[Edited 2012-06-13 12:27:50]

[Edited 2012-06-13 12:28:28]
 
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:55 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Thread starter):
why not JFK? as they do have connection opportunities on DL & AA all over the world from JFK. Is this because SEA-JFK is already flown by a couple other carriers, one being DL?

Both DL and AA fly SEA-JFK and their departures are timed to connect with their international banks of departures. AA and DL are going to prefer to keep people on their own metal for the entire route rather than codeshare and typically passengers prefer flying on the same airline. AS flies SEA-ORD/ATL/DFW for O/D and not necessarily for connections onwards to DL or AA flights.
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 22):
Please, don't start the "EWR Chamber of Commerce" speeches. You've now strayed way beyond what I pointed out in the OP's statement.

I was answering the OP's questions, "why EWR vs. JFK".

Both EWR and JFK are equal distance to Manhattan, however EWR also serves the Northern New Jersey business communities which is home to several companies (Honeywell) that do business with Puget Sound Companies (Boeing). There are no significant business ties between Queens or Long Island to the Puget Sound area, thus EWR is a more attractive destination for an airline based in Seattle.

Fact is if AS moved to JFK they would lose the New Jersey business traffic to UA, and end up fighting for the JFK - SEA market with AA, B6 and DL.
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 23):
AS flies SEA-ORD/ATL/DFW for O/D and not necessarily for connections onwards to DL or AA flights.

In fact AS and AA still do not code-share on each other's SEA-DFW flights It's more expensive to connect from AS SEA-DFW to an onward AA flight, than it would be to do AA's own flights on the SEA-DFW segment.

So presumably AS's SEA-DFW flights are almost all O/D on the DFW end, despite having massive connecting potential with a partner's huge hub.
 
N62NA
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 24):
There are no significant business ties between Queens or Long Island to the Puget Sound area, thus EWR is a more attractive destination for an airline based in Seattle.

And your statistical basis for such an assertion?
 
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:57 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):
"And even if LGA is a bit closer to midtown Manhattan, it's a wash for pax coming from downtown Manhattan (vs. EWR), and the traffic congestion to LGA and absolutely antiquated CTB of LGA are major thumbs-down"

Really, no one uses LGA for the CTB. It is close and convenient. So much closer then JFK or EWR...it always wins hands down.

And that is from uptown, downtown...whereever in the city (Manhattan). Because to get to Jersey, you need to go through a miserable tunnel that routinely has 45-60 min delays just to get into the tube. (No joke...welcome to NY)

Not to start another can of worms, but I don't get the insistence on going by car to EWR or JFK. Sure, LGA is cab/car service orientated but travel to EWR (I haven't been through JFK so I won't comment on that) is super smooth on the train and there is no worries about traffic. I realize that I don't speak for Manhattan but EWR > NJ Transit to Penn Station is far and away my preferred option vs. LGA > cab. I suppose that if I were traveling with heavy luggage or elderly persons that needed door to door convenience of a cab ride I would use LGA but.... I don't.
 
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:15 am

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 10):
Quoting dartland (Reply 15):
Real celebrities would not fly CO/UA out of EWR.

Well, that is your opinion, my real celebrity clients, with multiple platinum albums and extensive grammy awards would disagree with you, CO was gvery good to them, and when transiting EWR they were bothered much less than JFK.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 16):
Port Authority statistics show that Manhattan originating pax use LGA/JFK by a very wide margin compared to EWR.
Quoting N62NA (Reply 19):
Yes, but that has no relevance to the incorrect statement made by the OP:
Quoting N62NA (Reply 22):
I understand the entire reason that EWR being more desirable because of it's proximity to Manhattan,

You really are a dog with a bone, it's an easy question and you are so stuck on one thing that it is ruining this thread. My statement is correct, EWR is closer to Manhattan than JFK, it is desirable to lots of people everyday. It has been more desirable by a myriad of my clients over the past 20 years of booking travel for VIP types when flying to and from the west coast.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 24):
Fact is if AS moved to JFK they would lose the New Jersey business traffic to UA, and end up fighting for the JFK - SEA market with AA, B6 and DL.

Thanks for answering my question, what you are saying is easy to understand and makes perfect sense.
 
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:39 pm

Just because they dont code share does not mean they do not connect. I used to live in Dallas and fly frequently to Buenos Aires and Santiago. there were always people on those flights from Dallas who were connecting from Alaska Airlines' Seattle flight. Many of my friends in Seattle have also taken Alaska to DFW then connected to AA to various cities in the south/ Florida/ Latin America. In addition, many of my friends in Dallas would fly the Alaska airlines flight to Seattle and then connect to Delta to Asia. Or to other airlines to Asia. So, just because there are no code shares does not mean there are no connections. The interline agreements that are in place permit and facilitate the many connections that are offered.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 25):
So presumably AS's SEA-DFW flights are almost all O/D on the DFW end, despite having massive connecting potential with a partner's huge hub.
 
N62NA
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:15 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 28):
You really are a dog with a bone, it's an easy question and you are so stuck on one thing that it is ruining this thread. My statement is correct, EWR is closer to Manhattan than JFK, it is desirable to lots of people everyday. It has been more desirable by a myriad of my clients over the past 20 years of booking travel for VIP types when flying to and from the west coast.

I'm taking great care to stick only to what you wrote in your OP (I'm not going on rambling about companies in Madison NJ for example).

You wrote in the OP:

Quoting RWA380 (Thread starter):
I understand the entire reason that EWR being more desirable because of it's proximity to Manhattan,

If you are now saying that EWR is "more desirable for your clients because of it's proximity to Manhattan" then that's fine - nobody would disagree with you on such a statement. However, the statement was a "blanket" statement and as such, it is incorrect.
 
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:48 pm

Many Manhattan residents have an aversion to EWR as they have no real concept of how close it is. I live in Manhattan and some people think EWR is on the other side of the earth. It's very strange really. I find getting to JFK a horror as the traffic on the Long Island highways is so awful. The train from Penn Station to EWR is 23 minutes which is great.

That aside, the greater NY market isn't all about Manhattan. Really, the catchment basin spans as far north as central Connecticut, as far south as southern New Jersey and as far West as eastern Pennsylvania. I'm sure AS did a lot of research to determine where their customer base was living and working.
 
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:26 am

As all of Manhattan is better than 70% car-less, compared to the rest of NYC, which ranges from 5-60% car-free households, people in Manhattan would be more drawn to airports with better public transportation, and that would be EWR. The outer boroughs and suburbs are mostly

[Edited 2012-06-14 17:38:02]
 
VC10DC10
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:40 am

Good grief, it's getting hard to read a thread about a route involving a New York City-area airport without getting into a huge Jersey-versus-Long Island debate!

Wouldn't PDX-EWR or even ANC-EWR be a more logical next step for AS in the NYC market before opening a new station at JFK?
 
N62NA
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:50 am

Quoting rampart (Reply 32):
As all of Manhattan is better than 70% car-less, compared to the rest of NYC, which ranges from 5-60% car-free households, people in Manhattan would be more drawn to airports with better public transportation, and that would be EWR.

Except that they aren't, because...

Quoting termbewr (Reply 31):
Many Manhattan residents have an aversion to EWR as they have no real concept of how close it is. I live in Manhattan and some people think EWR is on the other side of the earth
 
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:49 am

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 1):
I'd love to see AS start service to JFK but it's well-covered out of SEA by remaining partners DL and AA. But never say never.

I was actually going to cite this as the reason why we don't have AS at JFK. With DL and AA flying JFK-SEA they really have no need to since they codeshare with them. However, like you said, never say never. Not to mention their codeshare with these two carriers could cause less havoc in trying to acquire some slots.
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:22 am

"As all of Manhattan is better than 70% car-less, compared to the rest of NYC, which ranges from 5-60% car-free households, people in Manhattan would be more drawn to airports with better public transportation, and that would be EWR. The outer boroughs and suburbs are mostly "

Actually...better public transit goes to JFK...which is connected via AirTrain to 4 subway lines and the LIRR hub.


JFK vs EWR aside...the transit connection Manhattan to JFK is cheaper, faster, more frequent and less prone to track delays than Manhattan to EWR.

That is not an opinion, it is a fact.

I had to go from EWR to JFK and did it:

AirTrain EWR->NJ Transit->Penn Station->LIRR->AirTrain JFK. Check it out sometime...the differences are stark

I will stay out of the continuing JFK vs EWR thing...because seriously, who cares?
 
rampart
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:08 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 34):
Except that they aren't, because...
Quoting STT757 (Reply 18):

The latest statistics show EWR draws 34.3% of it's traffic from New York City, 27.5% from the Borough of Manhattan. That's pretty good no? 34.3%.

I looked up the above referenced statistics and compared it to the locally originating traffic, as a representative proportion.

JFK takes 43% of the total locally originating traffic, so with 34.3% of its O&D from Manhattan is an underrepresented proportion. LGA takes 24% of local O&D, but is over-represented by Manhattan with 40.5%. EWR takes 21.7% of local O&D (and has the highest percentage of connecting non-locals), but is over-represented by Manhattan at 27.5%.

Of course, bringing in the other boroughs sways the total NYC representation in favor with JFK and LGA (>70% of the O&D), but still accounts for 39% of O&D using EWR. Of total NJ O&D, NJ cedes very little traffic to JFK or LGA LGA is the slightly preferred airport for Manhattan O&D, and with the least available public transportation! That explains the traffic on the BQE and Grand Central.

-Rampart

[Edited 2012-06-14 23:21:26]

[Edited 2012-06-14 23:23:29]
 
rampart
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:19 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 36):
JFK vs EWR aside...the transit connection Manhattan to JFK is cheaper, faster, more frequent and less prone to track delays than Manhattan to EWR.

That is not an opinion, it is a fact.

I had to go from EWR to JFK and did it:

AirTrain EWR->NJ Transit->Penn Station->LIRR->AirTrain JFK. Check it out sometime...the differences are stark

I admit the last time I flew out of JFK (on purpose), Air Train did not exist at JFK, so I neglect its existence, my bad. I experienced the NJ Transit, Amtrak, or even Olympia Bus shuttles which are straightforward, but I've not sampled the alternatives to JFK. The last time I had to transfer from EWR to JFK, TWA picked up my limo fare, it was their mechanical that had me rebooked onto a flight from the other airport. I had to fly that day, though had nothing better to do than take a limo ride, and I was bumped to first for my trouble. My one and only.

-Rampart
 
N62NA
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:46 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 37):
JFK takes 43% of the total locally originating traffic, so with 34.3% of its O&D from Manhattan is an underrepresented proportion. LGA takes 24% of local O&D, but is over-represented by Manhattan with 40.5%. EWR takes 21.7% of local O&D (and has the highest percentage of connecting non-locals), but is over-represented by Manhattan at 27.5%.

Ah, but that's looking at it backwards. You're looking at what percentage of pax using each airport is from a particular place.

The relevant (as it relates to the OP's assertion that EWR is "more desirable because of it's proximity to Manhattan") statistic is what percentage of pax from a particular location use each airport.

In other words, if there are 10 pax in Manhattan, and 8 go to JFK and 2 go to EWR, and JFK has a total of 20 pax and EWR has a total of 3 pax, then the percentages according to the way you are looking at it would be:

EWR: 66% of it's traffic is from Manhattan
JFK: 40% of it's traffic is from Manhattan

So you would (mistakenly) conclude that EWR is the more popular airport for people from Manhattan.

Hope this makes sense (and I hope I presented my grossly over-simplified example properly).  
 
tommy767
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:55 pm

Another reason AS continues to fly into EWR is that the flight is indeed codeshared with Delta. For the last 1.5 years or so, AS has been flying out of B-1.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):
they were celebrities, they flew to LA fairly often and they preferred CO from EWR vs UA or AA from JFK. So my statement is based upon personal experience and those of my well travelled clients."

What celebrities flew CO to EWR? Continental had ZERO network in Los Angeles for the last 20 years until they merged.

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 14):

Gotta love the fallacies on these EWR vs. JFK threads.

The Monorail at EWR opened in 1996. The transit line from EWR to NYC (via EWR station) didn't open until the early 2000s. Before that if you wanted to get to NYC from EWR you had to cab or bus it.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 18):
That's pretty good no? 34.3%.

Not when you compare it to LGA or JFK.
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EWRandMDW
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:47 pm

From my login name you can infer that I'm a fan of EWR, but this constant bickering over which airport someone living in Manhattan prefers is getting out of hand. Who cares? Here's a news flash -- Manhattan is NOT the center of the universe! Besides, there are all sorts of people who live in Manhattan, from the ridiculously rich to those much less well off. Let them all use JFK! There are several million people in northern NJ, Orange and Rockland Counties in NYS and eastern PA for whom JFK is a non-starter. And as for "real" celebs, I don't give a rat's rump where they fly into! Let them go to JFK for their publicity shots! Plenty of folks who work for a living will fly into EWR even if their destination is Manhattan. Maybe for them substance trumps (ha! ha!) image.
 
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 33):
Wouldn't PDX-EWR or even ANC-EWR be a more logical next step for AS in the NYC market before opening a new station at JFK?

PDX-EWR would seem like a promising option - I agree that AS would probably prefer to keep operations at one NYC airport for the time being. ANC-EWR is unlikely, IMO, because AS is already cutting back ANC-ORD (where there are plenty of AA connections) this winter to less than daily. ANC-EWR might work as a summer-seasonal route, but even then I think AS probably has more attractive opportunities.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 40):
Gotta love the fallacies on these EWR vs. JFK threads.

The Monorail at EWR opened in 1996. The transit line from EWR to NYC (via EWR station) didn't open until the early 2000s. Before that if you wanted to get to NYC from EWR you had to cab or bus it.

My mistake, but that doesn't change my point that at the time AS was evaluating NYC airports, EWR had better public transportation access than JFK. The EWR rail station opened in 2001 before AS started service the next year.
 
rampart
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 41):
but this constant bickering over which airport someone living in Manhattan prefers is getting out of hand.



Relax, we're just messin' with statistics at this point. It's actually an interesting question, which is why PANYNJ surveys passengers every year. Helps with planning. That said, if this bugs you, don't read any further on this particular post.  
Quoting N62NA (Reply 39):
So you would (mistakenly) conclude that EWR is the more popular airport for people from Manhattan.

Hope this makes sense (and I hope I presented my grossly over-simplified example properly




You're right, and thanks for that example. My eye-balling the data did not account for normalizing. It would be nice to have the data that surveys, say, New Yorkers as to which airport they use, not the other way around. I don't think it's published if it exists.

But, I think I can still make something of the "backward question" data. I tried a normalization called a location quotient (normally used for under- or over-representation in employment sectors). It would be better if I had actual passenger numbers, I'm only basing this off the percentages found in the 2011 PANYNJ report, the survey of airport users' origins. I converted the percentages to passenger numbers as a proportion of total traffic, and assume for now that it's correct. So, to compare, say, the contribution of Manhattan to the traffic of EWR, vs the total contribution of Manhattan to the entirety of the region's airports, it's a more apples to apples comparison. An LQ of 1 would be exactly the expected proportion at that airport with respect to the region (what you elude to), LQ 1 would be over-represented.

Lo and behold, Manhattan is close to normally expected at all airports; proportionally, Manhattanites spread their patronage about evenly, slightly over-represented at LGA, slightly underrepresented at EWR, and almost exactly as probability would predict at JFK. New Jersey originators are way over-represented at EWR, and way underrepresented at JFK and LGA. Oddly enough, Queens originators are about normally represented at LGA, somewhat over-represented at JFK, and well underrepresented at EWR.

It is about geography (apart from service constraints, such as international). However, this shows that this statement is incorrect:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 34):
Except that they aren't, because...

Quoting termbewr (Reply 31):
Many Manhattan residents have an aversion to EWR as they have no real concept of how close it is. I live in Manhattan and some people think EWR is on the other side of the earth



Manhattanites are actually as likely to use EWR as any other airport, corrected for proportion. In total numbers, Manhattanites use JFK more, not correcting for proportion. It's the New Jerseyans, and to an even greater extent Queensians (?), who fear venturing. Fortunately, each have good airports close to them.

-Rampart
 
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STT757
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:28 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 40):
Not when you compare it to LGA or JFK.

Actually comparing it to JFK and LGA EWR's numbers are really strong.

EWR get's 34% of it's traffic from New York City, JFK gets 3.4% of it's traffic from New Jersey. EWR is doing a better job of attracting New Yorkers to EWR than JFK is of attracting New Jersey business to Queens.
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N62NA
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:33 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 43):
It is about geography (apart from service constraints, such as international). However, this shows that this statement is incorrect:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 34):
Except that they aren't, because...

Quoting termbewr (Reply 31):
Many Manhattan residents have an aversion to EWR as they have no real concept of how close it is. I live in Manhattan and some people think EWR is on the other side of the earth



Yep. But your stats (thanks by the way for running the analysis - was interesting) can't compensate for the illogical mindset of the human mind. So this is actually still a correct statement:

Quoting termbewr (Reply 31):
Manhattanites are actually as likely to use EWR as any other airport, corrected for proportion. In total numbers, Manhattanites use JFK more, not correcting for proportion. It's the New Jerseyans, and to an even greater extent Queensians (?), who fear venturing. Fortunately, each have good airports close to them.
 
tommy767
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:44 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 44):

I think it's the other way around. Why would someone in NJ go to JFK unless it's significantly cheaper?

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 42):
PDX-EWR would seem like a promising option

I agree. UA flies it with generally 319s and 738s. Briefly they flew a 757 on it about a month ago, now that's history.

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 42):
The EWR rail station opened in 2001 before AS started service the next year.


Wow they started it 10 years ago? I could have sworn they didn't start it until at least 2006.
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rampart
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 45):
Yep. But your stats (thanks by the way for running the analysis - was interesting) can't compensate for the illogical mindset of the human mind. So this is actually still a correct statement:

All the prediction and statistics in the world have a hard time with illogical mindsets, in any field. It's the same mindset that has people spending $100 driving from Tulsa to Oklahoma City and back to save $50 on air fare.

Speaking of which, and pertinent to the topic, I came this close to flying AS to SEA out of ABE (a code share with AA), that was way cheaper than flying AS out of EWR, actually cheap enough to compensate for the cost of driving, then add the less expensive parking and less hassle. And the drive is actually only 15 minutes longer for me. But, convenience of departure times trumped it, and ended up flying out of EWR anyhow. I'm happy for the competition at EWR any rate.

-Rampart
 
m11stephen
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:22 pm

Here are some comparisons just for conversation sake...

According to Google Maps,

Using the shortest route by road from Grand Central Terminal to EWR the distance is 15.5 miles.
Using the shortest route by road from Grand Central Terminal to JFK the distance is 16.1 miles.
Using the shortest route by road from Grand Central Terminal to LGA the distance is 7.6 miles.

Using public transportation to get from EWR to the World Trade Center would take 53 minutes. This involves taking a bus through some not to so pretty areas of NJ from EWR to the PATH station in downtown Newark and then taking the PATH to the World Trade Center.

Using public transportation to get from JFK to the World Trade Center would take 1 hour and 3 minutes. This involves taking the AirTrain JFK and then taking a ride on the A train to the World Trade Center.

JFK is integrated into the New York City Subway System whereas the only real option for rail travel at Newark is to take NJT or Amtrak train into Penn Station and then transferring to the subway once one reaches Penn Station.

So give or take a couple minutes EWR and JFK are pretty much equal in distance and time from the heart of Manhattan. It really is up to each individual traveler to determine which airport provides the service that fits their needs.
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tdscanuck
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RE: Question: AS Flying To EWR Vs JFK, Why?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:17 pm

Quoting m11stephen (Reply 48):
Using public transportation to get from EWR to the World Trade Center would take 53 minutes. This involves taking a bus through some not to so pretty areas of NJ from EWR to the PATH station in downtown Newark and then taking the PATH to the World Trade Center.

I take it you haven't gone through EWR since they installed the NJT train station? You don't do the bus anymore. You go straight onto the train. Much more efficient.

Tom.