voodoo
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Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:33 pm

Looks like the next big (cyclical?) shake-up of the Canadian airline industry is about to begin:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...airline/article4253877/?cmpid=rss1
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AirCanada787
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:43 pm

We have been hearing about AC wanting to run an LCC or LWC for sometime. But this does tell us that it will probably start in YVR which makes sense considering the growing markets they can access from there. But one part of the article I found really interesting:

"Air Canada will remain a member of the Star Alliance of airlines and still handle domestic flights in and out of Vancouver, as well as provide service between Vancouver and the United States, Mexico and the Caribbean."

I was always under the impression that AC would still fly to higher yield destinations and destinations and those with a strong business class demand.
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multimark
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:34 pm

This is just more proof that AC management is flailing about, with no clear plan, or even understanding of what their brand is. They're willing to forfeit all high yield traffic to Asia? How will this apparent leisure brand interface with their other domestic and international operations?
 
powercube
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:41 pm

Wow, does this mean they want to palm AC33/34 off onto the LCC? That flight has always been pretty popular with people in the Pacific Northwest as you can avoid the horrors of LAX and the delays of SFO.
 
hoons90
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:52 pm

Assuming that AC063/064 gets transferred over, guess KE will be quite happy to have a bigger slice (perhaps even the whole pie) of the premium traffic between YVR and ICN, although I'm not even sure if AC actually carries that much premium traffic to/from ICN.
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connector4you
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:02 pm

Quoting multimark (Reply 2):
They're willing to forfeit all high yield traffic to Asia?

Not to all of Asia, but surely there are some destinations left out there that could perfectly fit the profile of a low cost high density traffic like New Delhi, Hanoi, Bangkok and yeah try ... Novosibirsk for a change
 
ANM604
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:02 am

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 1):
I was always under the impression that AC would still fly to higher yield destinations and destinations and those with a strong business class demand.

I would be absolutely shocked if AC gave up on premium destinations like HKG, NRT, SYD etc from YVR. There is just no logical explanation of why they would, unless the LCC and AC were closely aligned enough to share some elements like J-class, Aeroplan etc. If I had to guess, this sounds more like posturing, and I would expect fierce opposition from all unions. IMHO, this is a terrible idea if they intend on giving up on ALL Asia flights out of YVR. This might work if it can fly to secondary destinations, but then they risk poaching connecting passengers off existing AC flights. I just don't get it.
 
Sydscott
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:35 am

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 6):
I would be absolutely shocked if AC gave up on premium destinations like HKG, NRT, SYD etc from YVR.

I can see a great logic for Jetstar Japan to launch say NRT-YVR along with NRT-HNL. Neither are much longer than OOL/CNS-NRT that JQ Australia currently fly with A332's. If they did that, in conjunction with JAL, that could force AC's hand. And the QF group does have 50 787's to place of which 15 at least are going to Jetstar operations...........
 
voodoo
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:45 am

Quoting multimark (Reply 2):
This is just more proof that AC management is flailing about, with no clear plan, or even understanding of what their brand is. They're willing to forfeit all high yield traffic to Asia? How will this apparent leisure brand interface with their other domestic and international operations?

Or it could just be a ploy to make Westjet think 2x about developing an Asian strategy. If it delays that for a while it may make it difficult for it to ever happen. If AC announces in a year or two that it has 'decided not to pursue the Asian LCC idea' that will be my guess. Then.  
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Thenoflyzone
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:44 pm

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 6):
This might work if it can fly to secondary destinations, but then they risk poaching connecting passengers off existing AC flights. I just don't get it.

You're not the only one my friend ! Poor managerial decisions these last few years, that's for sure. And yet, they keep putting millions in their pockets in bonuses, and give nothing back to the employees.

Service wise, anyone who flies coach cannot differentiate between AC and WS. If anything, WS doesnt charge for your first checked bag, making it look like a better airline than AC.

I will choose WS over AC anyday.

As for long haul and LCC, in my opinion, those two words cannot and should not be used in the same sentence.

Oasis Hong Kong comes to mind. Also Air Asia X (still flies, but basically pulled out of KUL-Europe altogether !)

Scoot will be the same thing. It will tank, unless it sticks to intra-Asia flights, (i.e medium-haul)

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-06-14 05:44:52]
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bmacleod
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:49 pm

So if this crazy idea manages to get off the ground, what aircraft will they use 763s and A333s? I can't see expensive 77Ws being utilized into LCC service.
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Bobloblaw
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:01 pm

Quoting multimark (Reply 2):
This is just more proof that AC management is flailing about, with no clear plan, or even understanding of what their brand is

Correct.

Quoting powercube (Reply 3):
Wow, does this mean they want to palm AC33/34 off onto the LCC?

AC wants a LCC for every part of their network. WHY doesnt AC just come out and say it?? "We want our employees to be 50% more productive and pay them 50% less"
 
sebring
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:15 pm

Speaking of flailing away, I think a lot of you underestimate what is going on here. You're the ones flailing away, with uninformed opinions

I'll give you a line from a well-informed poster on another site, who responds to a comment that the plan seems to be confusing, or maybe just posturing ahead of the current pilot contract arbitration:



There has been a war room set up at AC HQ now for many months staffed by senior executives, professional advisors, lawyers, investment banks, and Sean Dunphy

http://www.stikeman....le_16250_EN.pdf

And you believe that this is posturing? You have no idea what is coming down the pipe.




And I have it from multiple sources that the LCC will use some of the most cost-effective aircraft at AC, which shouldn't be surprising since AC has five more 777-300ERs and 37 787s coming from Boeing, and is negotiating with Air India for its 777-200LRs. Put in all-Y configuration, even at 32 inch pitch you can get a lot more people into the aircraft.

[Edited 2012-06-14 07:21:01]
 
behramjee
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:27 pm

Only 3 routes from YVR come to mind for a long haul low cost i.e. TPE MNL and DEL. The rest i.e. NRT HKG PEK PVG ICN all have sufficient demand in J cabin to ensure a 2 class cabin aircraft warrants flying it.
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:59 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 9):
If anything, WS doesnt charge for your first checked bag, making it look like a better airline than AC.
AC is charging for the first bag only on transborder routes.

Quoting sebring (Reply 12):
You have no idea what is coming down the pipe.

We may not - however, we see an airline with high fares, mediocre service and high load factors being consistently in red numbers. Evidence that the management is indeed doing something wrong. So we don't really need patronizing from anyone. We are, after all, customers and if we don't like what we see, we will vote with our wallets. AC already did some changes on TPAC routes that upset many FF's. Continuing the race to bottom will drive them away completely.

Edited for spelling

[Edited 2012-06-14 08:13:55]
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:11 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 11):
AC wants a LCC for every part of their network. WHY doesnt AC just come out and say it?? "We want our employees to be 50% more productive and pay them 50% less"

Air Canada's employees are already generating more than 20% more revenue per employee than Westjet, while costing only 2% more per employee, INCLUDING pensions and benefits. That is why Air Canada's employees are correctly responding that clearly the problem does not lie with the employees ... they want an LCC management team!

Quoting multimark (Reply 2):
This is just more proof that AC management is flailing about, with no clear plan, or even understanding of what their brand is.

While I agree in principal. In my opinion, they know exactly want they want and what they are doing. They are not thinking long term, not by a long shot. Upper management wants to do, what they have done for the last 10 years. Separate parts of Air Canada, sell them, and divide the proceeds among themselves. The fact that the long term result is not viable is irrelevant, as they will no longer be a part of the airline.

For a shocker, look at the recent AGM of Air Canada in Calgary. Look at the huge raises, and massive bonuses they have all given themselves!!! For a job well done .... ?

Look at AVEOS. Separated, then sold. Then cast off ... now, they cant get maintenance on the airplanes flying, and they are ferrying them worldwide to be maintained!!! Not a long term solution.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
sebring
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:01 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 15):

Look at AVEOS. Separated, then sold. Then cast off ... now, they cant get maintenance on the airplanes flying, and they are ferrying them worldwide to be maintained!!! Not a long term solution.


That's not a long term solution, but it's also not the solution envisioned for the long term. The recent agreement in bankruptcy court will see engine and component work done locally, and as companies like Premier Aviation open expanded facilities, much of the frame work will stabilize locally in Canada. As you well know, frame work - indeed ACTS as a whole - was never profitable, and was a drag on profitability and demanded an inordinate amount of management energy. Even maintenance vets like Hollis Harris and Lamar Durrett couldn't make ACTS break even. AC tried being an MRO, but many frame projects, like the infamous Northwest DC-9 rebuilds, ended up losing rather than making money. You can only be entrepreneurial in so many areas, and operating an MRO was always difficult for Air Canada.

Partly, these attempts reflected the Air Canada Act's requirement to maintain three maintenance bases. No other major airline - not AA, not UA/CO - operates three major maintenance bases. That's all gone like the dodo bird. But AC was stuck with the act, but through the divestiture and a couple of friendly legal decisions, it's been able to wriggle out of a legal obligation that no other major airline has to endure.

Simply put, Air Canada should have been out of frame work a decade ago. It should have laid off those employees and closed Winnipeg and downsized Montreal a decade ago. Because of the Air Canada Act the employees concerned got an extra decade of work at over-market wages. Now, in a series of steps, Air Canada has got out from under act, and with the AVEOS bankruptcy, it has gotten out of the onerous prices it was being charged by the latter, which was the price of divestiture in the first place.

Far from being a negative, the bankruptcy of AVEOS was a huge windfall for Air Canada in the long term. I don't celebrate the loss of AVEOS frame jobs, but for an Air Canada standpoint, it is a victory over both the government (failure to amend or abrogate the ACPPA) and high costs.

[Edited 2012-06-14 09:04:19]
 
sebring
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting behramjee (Reply 13):

Only 3 routes from YVR come to mind for a long haul low cost i.e. TPE MNL and DEL. The rest i.e. NRT HKG PEK PVG ICN all have sufficient demand in J cabin to ensure a 2 class cabin aircraft warrants flying it.

The question is whether on a year round basis you can't make more money with an all-Y, 32" pitch configuration than you can with the current two class setup. If AC's route structure is so profitable, it's hard for me to see why AC loses money. The truth is, it has to make more money in the peak period - when business travel is light - and lose less and preferably break even or make a small profit in the winter months. So it may well be that on a 12-month basis, AC can make more money with a 500-seat (all Y) 777-300ER than it can with a 349-seat two class 777-300ER.
 
ORDJOE
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:24 pm

Quoting connector4you (Reply 5):
New Delhi, Hanoi, Bangkok and yeah try ... Novosibirsk for a change

If this is done it would make scense to send the LCC metal there and send AC metal to HKG, SIN, etc.

So are they sort of doing like QF did with jetstar?
 
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yowza
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:14 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 9):
As for long haul and LCC, in my opinion, those two words cannot and should not be used in the same sentence.

I hear you! But...

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 9):
Oasis Hong Kong comes to mind. Also Air Asia X (still flies, but basically pulled out of KUL-Europe altogether !)

Oasis did not have the subsequent feed at either end of any of its long haul routes.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 9):
Scoot will be the same thing. It will tank, unless it sticks to intra-Asia flights, (i.e medium-haul)

Well with Silk air and SQ feeding into it you never know.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 10):
763s and A333s

I'm not so sure about the A330's given their dwindling numbers. The 763s though could be a good candidate.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 11):
AC wants a LCC for every part of their network. WHY doesnt AC just come out and say it?? "We want our employees to be 50% more productive and pay them 50% less"

I don't think anyone is saying that. Are they?

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 14):
we see an airline with high fares, mediocre service and high load factors being consistently in red numbers

AC fare are almost always comparable to WS. There is very, very little to choose between AC and WS. In fact if it weren't for the cutesy jokes WS tells as part of their announcements you'd never know the difference. You have however correctly identified that high loads and low yields is a problem. That to me explains this desire to create an LCC.

YOWza
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 19):
AC fare are almost always comparable to WS. There is very, very little to choose between AC and WS.

Yes, on routes served by both. Otherwise the fares are quite high, especially if you travel to some small communities (such as YCG).

Quoting YOWza (Reply 19):
In fact if it weren't for the cutesy jokes WS tells as part of their announcements you'd never know the difference.

They are still doing it?
Quoting YOWza (Reply 19):
high loads and low yields is a problem. That to me explains this desire to create an LCC.

I understand that, but I don't think it's the way to go. At least I personally would avoid a TPAC LCC style flight as a plague, same way as you'll never see me flying TATL aboard of TS A310. Not to mention that according to Longhauler, TS has very low yields on their TATL flights. All that with fares that aren't all that low. Apparently the LC model doesn't really work well on TATL. What are the chances that it will work well on TPAC?
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yowza
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:19 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 20):
They are still doing it?

What do a teabag and the Calgary Flames have in common?
They're only good for one cup.

What do the Maple Leafs and the Titanic have in common?
They both look great until they hit the ice.

What’s the difference between a frequent flyer and the Maple Leafs?
Frequent flyers earn points. (I hope you appreciate the irony of WS telling this joke...)

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 20):
Yes, on routes served by both. Otherwise the fares are quite high, especially if you travel to some small communities (such as YCG).

I just flew into YYZ-YVR-YCD and it was quite cheap. Mind you it was on a domestic Tango fare meaning no status miles and only 25% Aeroplan points!

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 20):
Apparently the LC model doesn't really work well on TATL. What are the chances that it will work well on TPAC?

Well the travels patterns to and from the country are changing. Western Canada to Asia is not as well served as Eastern Canada to Europe. There is definitely a demand for more seats.

YOWza
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 21):
I just flew into YYZ-YVR-YCD and it was quite cheap. Mind you it was on a domestic Tango fare meaning no status miles and only 25% Aeroplan points!



Well, my YXU-YYZ-YVR-YCG RT on negotiated Tango Plus wasn't. My employer paid for it just about the same money as I paid for my son's YXU-YYZ-FRA-KRK-MUC-YYZ-YXU on regular, non-negotiated Tango Plus. And please, don't even start with Tango Fares...

Quoting YOWza (Reply 21):
Western Canada to Asia is not as well served as Eastern Canada to Europe. There is definitely a demand for more seats.



Is it really so? Don't forget, Western Canada's population is much smaller than Eastern Canada's and it's far less concentrated. You have about the same population concentrated in the Golden Horseshoe area as in all provinces west of Ontario.
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robsaw
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:53 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 15):
Air Canada's employees are already generating more than 20% more revenue per employee than Westjet, while costing only 2% more per employee, INCLUDING pensions and benefits. That is why Air Canada's employees are correctly responding that clearly the problem does not lie with the employees ... they want an LCC management team!

That's a very creative statement. Implies that the AC employee's are generating 100% of the revenue. I think it is the customers that generate revenue.

The last Westjet and AC quarterly reports indicate that per employee revenues are within 1% of each other. While costs per employee are about 13% higher at AC. How much of that cost is actually wages and benefits is not readily decipherable from the reports. Regardless, the issue is any business can only deal with the variable expenses within their control and wages and benefits is the largest factor on that side even if fuel, aircraft financing and maintenance are significant other contributors to expenses.

In any case, the problem is that AC consistently has too many quarters where operating expense exceeds operating revenue per passenger-mile; a simply unsustainable business model.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting robsaw (Reply 23):
The last Westjet and AC quarterly reports indicate that per employee revenues are within 1% of each other. While costs per employee are about 13% higher at AC. How much of that cost is actually wages and benefits is not readily decipherable from the reports.

What you have to look at is the "equivalent full time employee" numbers. As almost 30% of Air Canada's staff are part time.

As far as cost per employee, we must be looking at different columns. On the Westjet side, I was looking at "employee compensation, including profit sharing" ... on the Air Canada side it was termed "employee wages and benefits, including pensions". Not just actual wages.

But ... it really is all moot, as management has already acknowledged that Air Canada's employees by the numbers have passed Westjet's in value. They are trying to go even further. btw, Air Canada just publicly announced that they have hired another 24 full time "managers" to monitor the actions of its employees on social media. (One of the reasons I only quote numbers and information from the public domain).

Just what Air Canada needs ... another 24 managers. Soon management will outnumber employees!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
blueflyer
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:20 am

Surely the linked article is not entirely correct. I can't imagine that Air Canada would abandon all Asia service ex YVR.

Quoting sebring (Reply 17):
The question is whether on a year round basis you can't make more money with an all-Y, 32" pitch configuration than you can with the current two class setup.

Well, I hope the smart war-room people have thought about the implications of that project across the entire network.

My employer has a contract with Air Canada that Westjet can't compete for, because they wanted one-stop shopping for TPAC, transborder and TATL... If AC doesn't do TPAC anymore, who's to say we won't do British Airways, Cathay and Westjet for example.
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hoons90
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:45 am

Quoting behramjee (Reply 13):
Only 3 routes from YVR come to mind for a long haul low cost i.e. TPE MNL and DEL. The rest i.e. NRT HKG PEK PVG ICN all have sufficient demand in J cabin to ensure a 2 class cabin aircraft warrants flying it.

I'm not sure if ICN is a high yielding destination for AC. They just have a daily 763 on it while NRT and HKG are both 77Ws. I would guess that KE carries more of the premium traffic while the AC ICN flight is packed with international students going back home and vice versa, or price conscious VFR travelers. 24 J class seats isn't that much.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
ACT7
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:48 am

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 1):
We have been hearing about AC wanting to run an LCC or LWC for sometime. But this does tell us that it will probably start in YVR which makes sense considering the growing markets they can access from there. But one part of the article I found really interesting:

"Air Canada will remain a member of the Star Alliance of airlines and still handle domestic flights in and out of Vancouver, as well as provide service between Vancouver and the United States, Mexico and the Caribbean."

I was always under the impression that AC would still fly to higher yield destinations and destinations and those with a strong business class demand.

Actually, the part of the article that I found interesting is this one:

“Vancouver has been an underperforming market for Air Canada on international routes,” said one industry official. “Air Canada is trying to figure out how to make Vancouver work.”

It kind of implies that AC either isn't carrying a lot of the premium traffic between YVR and Asia or there just isn't a lot of premium traffic to carry. It could be mostly VFR traffic.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:28 am

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 27):
Actually, the part of the article that I found interesting is this one:

“Vancouver has been an underperforming market for Air Canada on international routes,” said one industry official. “Air Canada is trying to figure out how to make Vancouver work.”

It kind of implies that AC either isn't carrying a lot of the premium traffic between YVR and Asia or there just isn't a lot of premium traffic to carry. It could be mostly VFR traffic.

It is interesting, because during the same time:

CA have increased to twice daily
MU are running twice daily peak flights for the first time
KE have gone daily
NZ have arrived and increased frequency already
CZ have arrived and are increasing frequency
PR have increased frequency
3U are coming

Sure, these airlines have a strong home market, local feed and alliance connections but you could view these as all missed opportunities for AC. CZ for example are stealing pax from CX more than anything (and no doubt AC too) - how about a little vision from AC to try something like that? 3U are now going to do the same and the opportunities are slipping away, leaving them to compete on existing routes - which they do by charging extra bag fees compared to CX for example, so guess who gets the pax?

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 10):
I can't see expensive 77Ws being utilized into LCC service.

Dont be so sure, rumors I am hearing locally are indeed 77W - the new ones will replace the "older" ones in the fleet which will drop down to the LCC, because this

Quoting sebring (Reply 12):
And I have it from multiple sources that the LCC will use some of the most cost-effective aircraft at AC, which shouldn't be surprising since AC has five more 777-300ERs and 37 787s coming from Boeing, and is negotiating with Air India for its 777-200LRs. Put in all-Y configuration, even at 32 inch pitch you can get a lot more people into the aircraft.

   Though I thought the AI 77L deal was dead?
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ACT7
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:46 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 28):
It is interesting, because during the same time:

CA have increased to twice daily
MU are running twice daily peak flights for the first time
KE have gone daily
NZ have arrived and increased frequency already
CZ have arrived and are increasing frequency
PR have increased frequency
3U are coming

Sure, these airlines have a strong home market, local feed and alliance connections but you could view these as all missed opportunities for AC. CZ for example are stealing pax from CX more than anything (and no doubt AC too) - how about a little vision from AC to try something like that? 3U are now going to do the same and the opportunities are slipping away, leaving them to compete on existing routes - which they do by charging extra bag fees compared to CX for example, so guess who gets the pax?


It was posted on ssp that AC has reduced YVR-HKG to 5 weekly as well. Sundays, Tuesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, and Saturdays. Is AC really that uncompetitive on these routes?
 
ANM604
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:04 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 9):
Service wise, anyone who flies coach cannot differentiate between AC and WS

I'm not so sure. AC's IFE is miles ahead of WS, I personally hate the leather seats WS uses, and some of the older birds in WS's fleet are starting to show their age. For me, it's an easy choice, AC hands down.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 14):
Evidence that the management is indeed doing something wrong. So we don't really need patronizing from anyone. We are, after all, customers and if we don't like what we see, we will vote with our wallets. AC already did some changes on TPAC routes that upset many FF's. Continuing the race to bottom will drive them away completely.

Unfortunately, the only thing most consumers care about is price. The number of FF's are not nearly as high as they used to be, companies are always looking for ways to reduce expenses, and employee travel is an easy target. Sadly, it has always been a race to the bottom, there is nothing the management can do to get people to accept higher fares.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 15):
While I agree in principal. In my opinion, they know exactly want they want and what they are doing. They are not thinking long term, not by a long shot. Upper management wants to do, what they have done for the last 10 years. Separate parts of Air Canada, sell them, and divide the proceeds among themselves. The fact that the long term result is not viable is irrelevant, as they will no longer be a part of the airline.

In my opinion, they are thinking long term; because there will be no long term at this rate! Like you say, history has shown that AC has been shrunk over and over, and it is only a matter of time until AC no longer exists. It started with Milton, and now Calin has taken the reins. I didn't expect to have to say this, but Calin and the entire BoD need to go. Makes me sick.

Quoting sebring (Reply 16):
Far from being a negative, the bankruptcy of AVEOS was a huge windfall for Air Canada in the long term. I don't celebrate the loss of AVEOS frame jobs, but for an Air Canada standpoint, it is a victory over both the government (failure to amend or abrogate the ACPPA) and high costs.

You hit the nail on the head, good post.

Quoting sebring (Reply 17):
The question is whether on a year round basis you can't make more money with an all-Y, 32" pitch configuration than you can with the current two class setup. If AC's route structure is so profitable, it's hard for me to see why AC loses money.

Ala a certain carrier that starts with "West" and ends with "Jet"? Certainly seems like they are trying to imitate the WS/WN model. AC's route structure is profitable, it's just the entire company is not.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 28):
Sure, these airlines have a strong home market, local feed and alliance connections but you could view these as all missed opportunities for AC. CZ for example are stealing pax from CX more than anything (and no doubt AC too) - how about a little vision from AC to try something like that?

Undoubtedly missed opportunities for AC; YVR under performing is entirely their fault. They have neglected it for years, instead focusing on YYZ.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 28):
Though I thought the AI 77L deal was dead?

I was under that impression as well.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 29):
It was posted on ssp that AC has reduced YVR-HKG to 5 weekly as well

Not sure where you heard that, but I see AC7 as a daily flight still.
 
behramjee
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:26 am

Or Air Canada could instead use a few of its to be delivered B77Ws in a different configuration for YVR-TPE/MNL nonstop flights i.e. instead of having a 42J / 307Y, it should be 20J / 406Y. This sort of configuration would also come in handy on seasonal winter routes to "SUN" destinations in Central America operated nonstop from YVR.

This is why EK has a great time with their 2 class high density 434 seater B77Ws and B773As on high volume Far East, European and Indian Subcontinent routes as due to this configuration their CASKs greatly get reduced.

Unfortunately for DEL, operating a B77W nonstop from YVR is not possible, so an alternate might be using the 426 seater B77W that I have proposed earlier to fly YVR-ICN-DEL with 5th freedom traffic rights on ICN-DEL sector.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:32 am

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 29):
It was posted on ssp that AC has reduced YVR-HKG to 5 weekly as well. Sundays, Tuesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, and Saturdays. Is AC really that uncompetitive on these routes?
Quoting ANM604 (Reply 30):
Not sure where you heard that, but I see AC7 as a daily flight still.

If there has been a frequency reduction YVR-HKG, would this be related to the possible T7 pilot shortage due to retirements ? Has been discussed on the Avcanada site: http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=81470

If other T7 routes have had frequency trimmed over the summer peak period, that might be a confirmation of the rumour.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:01 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 32):
If there has been a frequency reduction YVR-HKG, would this be related to the possible T7 pilot shortage due to retirements ?

Air Canada is going to have a hard time staffing its flights with pilots. There are only so many times you can kick a guy in the onions before he says good bye! Pilots are retiring yes, but many many more are leaving early. Why hang around to watch the world's worst management team run into the ground what was once a respectable company?

But its not guys at the bottom leaving, its guys at the top. So the trickle down effect is causing 3 or 4 pilot courses to fill one Triple job! One would think it would be in the best interests to actually keep the guys at the top. I can see that, you can see that ... shoot my Australian Sheppard can see that ... why cant they see it!

Look at myself as a good example. I cashed in my AC pension to the tune of a couple million dollars. Its now earning around 9%. Not a lot, but it is a risk free 9%. I now fly Boeing's finest 10 days a month for about 200K. Every time AC's management pulls these tricks I am one halyard closer to jumping in my boat and heading to the Caribbean, and forgetting this business even existed.

There are a lot in my shoes right now, and we are wondering why we are staying! A lot wont.

For those that didn't have the foresight to cash in their pensions, there are many many contract companies looking for experienced pilots. Heck, they have people standing in front of AC Flight Ops handing out pamphlets!!!

The training centre is running at full speed right now, and they cant keep up. And ... for the first time in AC's history, at new hire classes, there are always a few spaces open where some guys just chose not to work for AC. And ... managements still doesn't get that you can have all the manager circle jerks all you want ... but you still cant fly airplanes without pilots!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
connies4ever
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 33):
Air Canada is going to have a hard time staffing its flights with pilots. There are only so many times you can kick a guy in the onions before he says good bye! Pilots are retiring yes, but many many more are leaving early. Why hang around to watch the world's worst management team run into the ground what was once a respectable company?
Quoting longhauler (Reply 33):
There are a lot in my shoes right now, and we are wondering why we are staying! A lot wont.

Yes, exactly what the Avcanada link is discussing and what I was trying, however poorly, to get at. The ones leaving are, I believe, more at the Senior Captain level and they are like gold for longhauls with the biggest and best a//c in the fleet.

I left Atomic Energy in January after 37 years because basically I was burnt out and frustrated due to no further progression. In another situation I would have stayed to 40 years, 70-75 hours/'week for over a year, particularly with no thanks, will do that to you. I'm now feeling well enough that I am discussing some minor contracting with AECL. But on my schedule & terms.

In your situation I think taking the boat down to the Caribbean would be the better choice. You could even get a type rating on a Twotter or similar and sub for some small outfit on an as needed basis. Might be more fun.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
ACT7
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:27 pm

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 30):
Undoubtedly missed opportunities for AC; YVR under performing is entirely their fault. They have neglected it for years, instead focusing on YYZ.

I don't think that's true. If YVR was performing the way AC needs it to, it wouldn't shift focus just for the sake of building their YYZ hub. YYZ is their hub because it's a substantially larger market with more premium traffic. There have been several attempts to force YVR to become a true hub and it hasn't worked. AC used to offer many more flights between YVR and Asia, as did Canadian at the time, but obviously Canadian couldn't muster a hub out of YVR either.

Asian carriers, Chinese in particular, have a much lower cost structure than AC so it will always be more difficult to compete with them on those routes anyway.

Re: AC's YVR-HKG schedule, I'm only quoting what I read on ssp.
 
fly2yyz
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:53 pm

Not sure if this has been brought up, but I thought it was fitting of this topic I thought I would post it here. This articule discusses Air Transat (TS) looking for new revenue flights as Europe is looking stagnant with the economic crises and all sights are at Asia.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/as-europes-allure-dims-transat-turns-eyes-east/article4258239/
 
Jayce
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:08 am

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 35):
If YVR was performing the way AC needs it to, it wouldn't shift focus just for the sake of building their YYZ hub. YYZ is their hub because it's a substantially larger market with more premium traffic. There have been several attempts to force YVR to become a true hub and it hasn't worked. AC used to offer many more flights between YVR and Asia, as did Canadian at the time, but obviously Canadian couldn't muster a hub out of YVR either.

I agree to a point. Yes, YYZ is a substantially larger market with more premium traffic, but AC inherited the YVR hub from the merger with CP, and has never really made it as much of a focus as CP did.

I think if AC really wants YVR to work as a hub, they need to offer more connections, particularly to the US, as they do out of YYZ. AC offers connections from YYZ to places like GRR, PWM and ALB. Similar markets out of YVR would be BOI, GEG and EUG. You can't rely strictly on O&D to make a hub work, look at US in CLT.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" -Homer Simpson
 
connies4ever
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:54 pm

Quoting Jayce (Reply 37):
I think if AC really wants YVR to work as a hub, they need to offer more connections, particularly to the US, as they do out of YYZ. AC offers connections from YYZ to places like GRR, PWM and ALB. Similar markets out of YVR would be BOI, GEG and EUG. You can't rely strictly on O&D to make a hub work, look at US in CLT.

AC don't really have a strong YVR-USA presence. Certainly a fair number of flights to LAX/SFO/ORD/SEA/PDX, mostly UA codeshares, but difficult to market that product in Asia when there are many nonstops. There is DEN which has 3x from YVR (2 codeshares) but after that I think it's pretty thin. PDX might work as it does not have many (any ?) n/s to Asia.

Lots of onward connections to Canadian destinations, of course.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
bakersdozen
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 38):
AC don't really have a strong YVR-USA presence. Certainly a fair number of flights to LAX/SFO/ORD/SEA/PDX, mostly UA codeshares, but difficult to market that product in Asia when there are many nonstops. There is DEN which has 3x from YVR (2 codeshares) but after that I think it's pretty thin. PDX might work as it does not have many (any ?) n/s to Asia.

Lots of onward connections to Canadian destinations, of course.

Thinking "out loud" here but I wonder how the new runway and new international/transborder terminal at YYC would play into more of a western Canada transboarder hub for AC. Similar to what Denver had become for UA. I gather YYC is about an hour or so from most western airports and could effectively feed people and cargo south with little to no backtracking. The limiting factor on transboarder with YVR is that it's pretty far out of the way on the west coast to connect traffic downward. Feeding YVR, YYC, and YEG, Saskatoon, and Regina into one hub would mean quite a bit of traffic wouldn't it? It might be a kick in the nuts for YVR folk to conceed this traffic but I wonder how much business sense a move like this would make. It seems that most of the large box stores (Walmart, Superstore, Costco, and soon to be Target) are centering their western canada destribution centres at the YYC airport so it seems to make sense at least for cargo.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting Jayce (Reply 37):
AC inherited the YVR hub from the merger with CP, and has never really made it as much of a focus as CP did.

AC has far more capacity from YVR now than CP ever did. For example, CP never had anything approaching AC's current roughly 18 daily nonstops YVR-YYZ and 15 daily YVR-YYC. And CP certainly didn't have 6 daily transpacific nonstops like AC does currently.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:17 pm

Quoting bakersdozen (Reply 39):
Thinking "out loud" here but I wonder how the new runway and new international/transborder terminal at YYC would play into more of a western Canada transboarder hub for AC.

Could work. In AC's world, YYC IS a hub (along with YVR, YYZ, and YUL) as there are a lot of cnx options, both to the USA and domestically. AC has also launched YYC-NRT with 763s. The new runway won't hurt, that's for sure. YYC's population has crossed the 1M threshold, and despite the slowdown, growth hasn't stopped. I can see a YYC-HKG 3x is probably not too far off.

YVR is evaluating a 3rd E-W runway built out into the Strait of Georgia on landfill. Lots of issues to deal with, absolutely. But currently YVR is not slot constrained. As for AC-Asia ex-YVR, I can see them going back to KIX at some point, CAN is possible although China Southern are already in that market. But there is also CKG, the ancient capital. That could be a target for the LCC. MNL comes to mind, as well as SGN for East Asia. For Australasia, BNE, possibly MEL, although that might be a full service destination, and AKL (but NZ already in AKL-YVR).

AC might also look at going east from YVR to places like MAN, BHX, DUB, BFS, DUS, etc.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:55 pm

Lets have a look

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 38):

AC don't really have a strong YVR-USA presence

1x daily ANC
4x week HNL
1x daily LAS
4x daily LAX
1x week OGG
1x daily MEX
1x daily EWR
4x daily PDX
1x daily SAN
5x daily SFO
8x daily SEA

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 38):
Certainly a fair number of flights to LAX/SFO/ORD/SEA/PDX, mostly UA codeshares

But supposedly thats what alliances are for...
UA - ORD, DEN, LAX, EWR, SFO, IAH
US - PHX
CA - PEK
LH - FRA
NZ - AKL

The problem with this being that UA will route the Star pax to Asia through their own hub in LAX. So if AC are going to replicate UA routes to poach those pax, the UA relationship will become pretty sour. I do think a couple of E190 flights to ORD, DEN, IAH, DFW & SLC could be in order, screw UA....

Quoting Jayce (Reply 37):
Similar markets out of YVR would be BOI, GEG and EUG. You can't rely strictly on O&D to make a hub work, look at US in CLT.

Q400 routes!!! In fairness, the domestic market is very well covered and YVR is ideally placed as a western hub for Canadians and there is some useful feed. The weakness seems to be relying on UA feed for Asia pax from the US market, but from a US pax POV, why would you want to transit in Canada when your local airline can route you to your destination throught their hub?
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:20 am

How much high yield traffic is there between YVR and SYD? AC are the only operator on the route but I still can't see huge premium demand existing.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 11):
AC wants a LCC for every part of their network. WHY doesnt AC just come out and say it?? "We want our employees to be 50% more productive and pay them 50% less"

Unfortunately, that seems the only way that airlines can make money these days.

Many legacy carriers are overstaffed and inefficient, bearing large wage bills in the process.
 
ac7e7
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:42 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 33):

It doesn't matter who the management team is at Air Canada. The unions and their members will not be happy until the airline hands over every penny in the bank they feel they are entitled to. Even then, they won't ever be happy. You are claiming to make $200k/yr and only working 10 days a month and you are still complaining. Trust me, AC wants you to retire. There are plenty of pilots around the world willing to work for half of what you make. AC gave your union a chance to be part of a new low cost carrier. You union foolishly refused to consider the possibility, and now AC will hire pilots from China at half the cost. Great move boys. You are a perfect example of why AC's cost structure is no longer feasible.

Bottom Line: The problem at the airline is the culture of entitlement, and it will never be resolved until it is liquidated.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:08 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 42):
AC don't really have a strong YVR-USA presence

1x daily ANC
4x week HNL
1x daily LAS
4x daily LAX
1x week OGG
1x daily MEX
1x daily EWR
4x daily PDX
1x daily SAN
5x daily SFO
8x daily SEA

Didn't realise MEX was an American destination ! But the key point is, for both YVR & YYC, US destinations served from these cities mostly already have nonstops to one or more Asian destinations, UA, DL, whatever. Why would someone in Asia choose, say, PEK-YVR-ORD via AC rather than PEK-ORD n/s on UA (assuming they serve that route) ? The motivation escapes me, unless there is a big price difference.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 42):
The problem with this being that UA will route the Star pax to Asia through their own hub in LAX. So if AC are going to replicate UA routes to poach those pax, the UA relationship will become pretty sour.

Agreed.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:59 pm

Quoting ac7e7 (Reply 44):
It doesn't matter who the management team is at Air Canada.

As you are young, you probably don't know a lot of the "management history" of Air Canada and its predecessors. Past CEOs like Claude Taylor, Hollis Harris, Kevin Benson and Max Ward himself had tremendous relationships with employees, union or otherwise. It was always refreshing to hear them say, "we need your help, this is what we can do for you". A lot of it was not in writing, but there was a trust between the two groups that was never broken. This is one of the reasons I respect and envy the relationship Westjet has with its employees. It is very "old school" and it works.

At Air Canada, by comparison, management doesn't even honour what it has in writing, let alone "handshake" deals. Pilots are still waiting on profit sharing cheques from 2006!!

Quoting ac7e7 (Reply 44):
The unions and their members will not be happy until the airline hands over every penny in the bank they feel they are entitled to.

The union employee groups at Air Canada have all taken pay cuts, (some huge), and working condition concessions over the last decade. So much so, that as I stated above, AC has acknowledged that is employees are more "value" than Westjet (for example). If that is the case, why do employees keep hearing that they are "the problem" ... when management continue to pad their ranks, and vote themselves large raises and bonuses?

Quoting ac7e7 (Reply 44):
You are claiming to make $200k/yr and only working 10 days a month and you are still complaining.

I am not complaining. Reread my message. I am able to do that job for that remuneration as a result of how long I have been flying. And ... I make less than a comparable wide-body Captain at say, Lufthansa, Swiss, Japan Air Lines, Singapore Airlines, etc. People that have been there longer make more ... new hires make less than $40,000 a year and work 20 days a month.

Add to that, Air Canada's pilots, in a recent study were shown to the be the second more productive in North America.

Quoting ac7e7 (Reply 44):
Trust me, AC wants you to retire

If I were to retire early, my job would be flown by a pilot making exactly the same wages as me, with the same working conditions. And ... would likely result in the trickle down of 3 pilot courses. (cost, about $100,000 each). Trust ME, Air Canada does not want me to retire.

Quoting ac7e7 (Reply 44):
AC gave your union a chance to be part of a new low cost carrier. You union foolishly refused to consider the possibility, and now AC will hire pilots from China at half the cost.

That offer was not turned down. The pilots responded with a request to look at what the game plan was, as AC's previous two LCCs failed. There wasn't one. Then the pilots responded that they would accept a lower pay scale on LCC flights, but would remain on the same equipment list. Namely a B767 Captain (for example) would make one pay scale flying YVR-LHR, and a different pay scale flying YVR-KIX. Air Canada too, turned down that offer.

For the record, these differing pay scales already exist. An A320 pilot at max pay band, makes a different wage flying say YYZ-BGI than YYZ-YYC, and day and night wages also differ. So the facility is there to handle such a plan.

But no. Air Canada was clear, they wanted all employees at the LCC to be on separate lists, not because it is cheaper, (it isn't) but so they can sell the LCC and divide the proceeds among themselves. Read AVEOS.

The pilots could not agree to that. And, for the record, Chinese carriers are paying pilots more than Air Canada, I just looked at one of their offers.

Quoting ac7e7 (Reply 44):
You are a perfect example of why AC's cost structure is no longer feasible.

Air Canada's employee costs are in line or cheaper than competitors. What AC can not afford is its very expensive management.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
YXD172
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:39 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 46):

Air Canada's employee costs are in line or cheaper than competitors. What AC can not afford is its very expensive management.

Can you show anything to back this up? As I explained in AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract a couple months ago, AC's costs per equivalent full time employee were 11.9% higher than WS's (in Q4 2010) while revenue per employee was only 10.2% higher - and the cost/revenue spread got worse over the next year. Further, AC's employee CASM was 29% higher than WS!

All of the data to back this up is from quarterly reports, so unless you can show any new data, AC's employment costs are NOT in line with their primary domestic competitor, WS.

I understand that they are two very different airlines, but at this point WS is AC's main competition in this country. I'd be interested to see a comparison with other international airlines if you've got the info.
Radial engines don't leak oil, they are just marking their territory!
 
ac7e7
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:33 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 46):
As you are young, you probably don't know a lot of the "management history" of Air Canada and its predecessors. Past CEOs like Claude Taylor, Hollis Harris, Kevin Benson and Max Ward himself had tremendous relationships with employees, union or otherwise. It was always refreshing to hear them say, "we need your help, this is what we can do for you". A lot of it was not in writing, but there was a trust between the two groups that was never broken. This is one of the reasons I respect and envy the relationship Westjet has with its employees. It is very old school" and it works.

I am well aware of Air Canada's management history, especially Hollis Harris. And if I recall, there were constant grumblings about Hollis Harris being an American running Canada's national airline. Harris is known for increasing Air Canada's revenues by opening new markets to Asia, fleet renewal, etc. At the time, the Canadian market was very different - no LCCs competing with legacy carriers. His biggest competitor was another legacy carrier still suffering from a number of bad mergers, including with Wardair, and paying exhorbitant fees to Sabre. If he was facing a LCC at the time, he too would have demanded new labour agreements. And you would have complained about his compensation package.

Kevin Benson and Max Ward may (or may not) have had good relations with their employees, however they both made terrible strategic decisions at their respective airlines that lead to the downfall of their businesses.

What is stopping you from accepting a job at Westjet? Last I heard, they are expanding their fleet, making a profit, and profit share.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 46):
At Air Canada, by comparison, management doesn't even honour what it has in writing, let alone "handshake" deals. Pilots are still waiting on profit sharing cheques from 2006!!

Considering Air Canada has not posted a profit in years, I would not hold my breath. Eventually, in its current state, AC will fall into bankrutcy protection again. Costs are simply too high.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 46):
Add to that, Air Canada's pilots, in a recent study were shown to the be the second more productive in North America.

I will take your word for it, however it does not mean it is profitable. For all I know, the group of airlines in the study as a whole are not very productive, just that AC's pilots are at the top of the pile of a generally unproductive labour group.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 46):
If I were to retire early, my job would be flown by a pilot making exactly the same wages as me, with the same working conditions. And ... would likely result in the trickle down of 3 pilot courses. (cost, about $100,000 each). Trust ME, Air Canada does not want me to retire.

Perhaps today, but if AC goes ahead with an off-shore LCC, they won't have to.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 46):
But no. Air Canada was clear, they wanted all employees at the LCC to be on separate lists, not because it is cheaper, (it isn't) but so they can sell the LCC and divide the proceeds among themselves. Read AVEOS.

Maybe, maybe not. This is a business, not social assistance. A business is in business to make money for their owners.

Enough of AVEOS. A business unit that was not profitable, and ACE was right to sell it off. Even today, nobody wants to touch it with with a 10-foot poll because they would be forced to re-hire the former employees at the similar rates.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 46):
The pilots could not agree to that. And, for the record, Chinese carriers are paying pilots more than Air Canada, I just looked at one of their offers.

Perhaps in salary, but what about pensions, and flying time? What about the rest of their cost structure? Do Chinese carriers pay the same airport rents to the government that Canadian carriers pay here in Canada? Their heavy maintenance costs are much lower then what AC was paying AVEOS. Is it a regulated domestic market where certain Chinese carriers are allowed to fly to certain cities and not others. Chinese carriers operate in a very different regulatory environment then the Canadian, American, and European markets. It is protected, much like Canada's was before deregulation.

If they were offering you a higher salary, maybe it is time for you to accept. However, more money is a short term motivator. As you mentioned, you envy the Westjet business model. Time to make the leap!

Quoting longhauler (Reply 46):
Air Canada's employee costs are in line or cheaper than competitors. What AC can not afford is its very expensive management.

Typical union answer. Broad statements without explaining how much you believe they should be paid. How much should senior executives be paid?
 
Skywatcher
Posts: 449
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RE: Air Canada Wants A YVR-Asia LCC

Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:07 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 33):
Look at myself as a good example. I cashed in my AC pension to the tune of a couple million dollars. Its now earning around 9%. Not a lot, but it is a risk free 9%. I now fly Boeing's finest 10 days a month for about 200K. Every time AC's management pulls these tricks I am one halyard closer to jumping in my boat and heading to the Caribbean, and forgetting this business even existed.

How on earth do you earn a 9% guaranteed return on your pension? I can barely manage 5% and there is alot and I mean alot of risk involved. It would appear that pilots have become extremely wealthy working at AC over the years (with risk free multi-million dollar pensions etc.) and still trash their employer every chance they get. Quite frankly I'm shocked at the massive ingratitude that is being exhibited by AC pilots here. I am not impressed.

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