FL787
Topic Author
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:18 am

DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:08 pm

The European slashing continues. ATL-BCN ends for the winter on October 26th while JFK-PRG is ending on November 17th. Good for DL and others to cut their losses in the offseason with a bad economy but there sure will be a lot of heavy metal sitting around (and yes I know a lot of DL planes will be going through mods). The cuts are loaded in DL's desktop timetable.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe these will be the European markets left operating by the middle of January from JFK and ATL.

JFK:

LHR
CDG
AMS
SVO
MXP
BRU
FRA
DUB
MAD
BCN
VCE
IST

ATL:

LHR
CDG
AMS
FCO
FRA
MUC
DUS
STR
ZRH
BRU
MAD
MAN
DUB
 
catiii
Posts: 2387
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:54 pm

Quoting FL787 (Thread starter):
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe these will be the European markets left operating by the middle of January from JFK and ATL.

It makes good business sense but it's still amazing that there's not going to be a JFK-FCO flight...
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:58 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 1):
It makes good business sense but it's still amazing that there's not going to be a JFK-FCO flight...

Why operate JFK-FCO when your JV partner Alitalia operates and you share revenue.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
spiritair97
Posts: 1191
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:28 pm

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:58 am

IT seems that JFK-PRG has not been performing very well lately. It was downgraded from an a333 at the end of last summer and is now seasonal.
 
bizjet
Posts: 264
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 10:08 pm

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:04 am

Back in May, Ed Bastian announced at an investor conference that Delta would be drawing down transatlantic capacity in the 4th quarter winter trough by 5% (with similar reductions by the other JV partners). No particular signs of weakness but just general careful management of capacity in very weak demand periods amid caution about the economic environment.

We're now seeing some of the specific reductions.

For what it's worth, this is another good example of the power of the JVs to help airlines operate profitably. The JV partners can draw down capacity on thinner routes while retaining much of the traffic within the JV, given the variety of gateways on both sides of the Atlantic to route the traffic over. For example, a pre-JV Delta might want to stay in ATL-BCN in the winter, but now it can comfortably exit the route in the winter and keep much of the traffic either over JFK or over AMS/CDG.
 
catiii
Posts: 2387
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:57 am

Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 2):
Why operate JFK-FCO when your JV partner Alitalia operates and you share revenue.

Go back and read what I wrote: I'm agreeing with you, although I would posit that the Alitalia business product is inferior to DL's but that's a whole different thread  Smile Still, for the first time in a long time there's no DL metal on JFK-FCO.

[Edited 2012-06-14 21:05:16]
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:23 am

Quoting FL787 (Thread starter):
JFK:
Quoting FL787 (Thread starter):
BCN

This is staying year-round, right? This sounds like too good of a route for DL to cut. When I flew it a few years back it was overbooked.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
catiii
Posts: 2387
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:51 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
This is staying year-round, right? This sounds like too good of a route for DL to cut. When I flew it a few years back it was overbooked.

The Spanish economy is in the tank though, and as we all know loads don't necessarily mean high yields or profitability, but I have to think you're right. They can't be leaving the BCN market entirely.

[Edited 2012-06-14 22:02:28]
 
FSDan
Posts: 908
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:58 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 5):
Still, for the first time in a long time there's no DL metal on JFK-FCO.

Did DL have their own metal on JFK-FCO last winter?
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6166
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:34 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 5):
that the Alitalia business product is inferior to DL's but that's a whole different thread  

I do not have first-hand information (i.e., no personal experience flying DL J or AZ J trans-Atlantic), but it seems the new AZ product on the A332s is very, very good. Might as well be better than DL's.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
LIPZ
Posts: 483
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:29 am

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:06 am

Quoting FSDan (Reply 8):
Did DL have their own metal on JFK-FCO last winter?

No they left AZ only on the route.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2169
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:41 am

Quoting BizJet (Reply 4):
a pre-JV Delta might want to stay in ATL-BCN in the winter, but now it can comfortably exit the route in the winter and keep much of the traffic either over JFK or over AMS/CDG.

It's not quite the same. With BCN-ATL (and to a lesser extent BCN-JFK) one can reach zillions of US destinations with one only connection (say, BCN-ATL-AUS), while if going through AMS/CDG that's only possible for the handful of destinations AF/KL fly to non-stop from AMS/CDG (say BCN-CDG-SFO, but not BCN-CDG-AUS).
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340
 
realsim
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:19 pm

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:15 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 7):
The Spanish economy is in the tank though, and as we all know loads don't necessarily mean high yields or profitability, but I have to think you're right. They can't be leaving the BCN market entirely.

Even if the Spanish economy is in a bad shape right now, the number of passengers at BCN are growing a 3% this year (even without Spanair), and last year also grew. MAD is also growing its international passengers (not the domestic ones, because of the opening of new high speed train routes).

I don't have facts to prove it, but my opinion is that DL is leaving BCN-ATL at winter also because the effects of IB/AA/BA's JV. They are operating 2 daily 763 to JFK and MIA, while before there was only a 763 to JFK at summer and a 757 at winter.
 
cokepopper
Posts: 388
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 9:44 pm

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:41 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 5):

This is actually the second winter season with no Delta metal on this route.
 
OOer
Posts: 920
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:10 pm

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:07 pm

This will be the 2nd year in a row that there won't be a JFK-FCO flight in the winter, it will also be the first year there won't be a JFK-ATH flight in the winter. Now we can add JFK-PRG to the list...
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 5):
Go back and read what I wrote: I'm agreeing with you, although I would posit that the Alitalia business product is inferior to DL's but that's a whole different thread Smile Still, for the first time in a long time there's no DL metal on JFK-FCO.

Flying both often, I'd actually argue the opposite.

Alitalia's a/c are equipped with flat beds that are wider than Delta's.

Alitalia's Magnifica food is significantly better than Delta's BusinessElite offering.

The only place Delta may excel is in service delivery, however Delta's crews have been largely hit or miss lately.

Delta's investing in the hard product, but the soft-product has a long way to go.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
klwright69
Posts: 2313
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:47 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 11):
Quoting BizJet (Reply 4):
a pre-JV Delta might want to stay in ATL-BCN in the winter, but now it can comfortably exit the route in the winter and keep much of the traffic either over JFK or over AMS/CDG.

It's not quite the same. With BCN-ATL (and to a lesser extent BCN-JFK) one can reach zillions of US destinations with one only connection (say, BCN-ATL-AUS), while if going through AMS/CDG that's only possible for the handful of destinations AF/KL fly to non-stop from AMS/CDG (say BCN-CDG-SFO, but not BCN-CDG-AUS).

Yes, but how much traffic really is there during the off season anyway.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2169
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:12 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 16):
Yes, but how much traffic really is there during the off season anyway.

Between BCN and the whole US? A lot. But there are other options, of course. Specifically, this coming winter: JFK with AA and DL, EWR with UA, MIA with AA, and all the routes via European hubs. But ATL provides more connectivity than any other option.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340
 
klwright69
Posts: 2313
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:15 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 17):
Quoting klwright69 (Reply 16):
Yes, but how much traffic really is there during the off season anyway.

Between BCN and the whole US? A lot.

Yes, but not enough high yield traffic unfortunately.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2169
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:13 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 18):
Yes, but not enough high yield traffic unfortunately.

Well, enough to sustain BCN to JFK (AA and DL), EWR (UA) and MIA (AA) in the winter, plus ATL (DL) and PHL (US) in the summer...
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340
 
avi8
Posts: 865
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:36 am

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:27 pm

It's amazing how much DL has reduced its transatlantic hub at JFK. One could argue wether ATL is its main transatlantic hub now. ATL even has more European destinations. Aside the local demand, what's the secondary purpose for JFK now that many European routes are gone?
avi8
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:03 pm

Quoting avi8 (Reply 20):
Aside the local demand, what's the secondary purpose for JFK now that many European routes are gone?

There are many more connection opportunities at ATL than JFK. JFK is also very crowded (this, despite ATL's status as the world's busiest airport.)


Even then, ATL is quite a bit more convenient, especially with the new F concourse.

I'll never connect through ATL, though, personally    Always through MSP if I'm going to the east coast 
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
panamair
Posts: 3759
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:17 pm

Quoting avi8 (Reply 20):
It's amazing how much DL has reduced its transatlantic hub at JFK. One could argue wether ATL is its main transatlantic hub now. ATL even has more European destinations.

It's the opposite really - ATL has had tremendous reductions this year, losing CPH, PRG, SVO, ATH, and TLV even during the summer. It will also soon lose ACC. Currently for the summer, JFK has more transatlantic destinations than ATL (JFK has 24 European destinations, versus ATL's 16; they each have three Middle East/Africa destinations as well). It's just that JFK has more seasonal destinations than ATL (SNN, ZRH, CPH, ARN, KEF, PRG, ATH, AGP, VLC, PSA, etc.)
 
panamair
Posts: 3759
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:35 pm

Just noticed some interesting equipment changes for the Winter transatlantic schedules:

JFK-CDG will be on an A332 (has traditionally been a 763ER)
JFK-SVO will also use the A332 (traditionally been the 763ER or 764ER)
JFK-AMS will upgauge to an A333 (was 763ER last winter, was A332 winter before).

MSP-CDG will remain an A332 (from the summer); was 763ER last winter.

AMS-BOM will use an A333 (can't remember whether they used the A332 or A333 last winter)

PDX-AMS will be a 763ER (some previous posts had indicated that PDX-AMS would keep the A330 for the winter).

Flatbed 763ERs (eight of them so far in service) so far only loaded on three routes: JFK-BRU, JFK-FRA, and SEA-PEK.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 3930
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:23 pm

"It's amazing how much DL has reduced its transatlantic hub at JFK. One could argue wether ATL is its main transatlantic hub now. ATL even has more European destinations. Aside the local demand, what's the secondary purpose for JFK now that many European routes are gone?"


Dude, what are you talking about?

DL has put much more emphasis on the TA flying out of JFK vs ATL.

"It's the opposite really - ATL has had tremendous reductions this year, losing CPH, PRG, SVO, ATH, and TLV even during the summer. It will also soon lose ACC. Currently for the summer, JFK has more transatlantic destinations than ATL (JFK has 24 European destinations, versus ATL's 16; they each have three Middle East/Africa destinations as well). It's just that JFK has more seasonal destinations than ATL (SNN, ZRH, CPH, ARN, KEF, PRG, ATH, AGP, VLC, PSA, etc.)"


Bingo
 
Talaier
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 7:38 pm

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 19):
Well, enough to sustain BCN to JFK (AA and DL), EWR (UA) and MIA (AA) in the winter, plus ATL (DL) and PHL (US) in the summer...

IB's ATI has lured in a lot of premium traffic . Bear in mind a lot of the corporate contracts in BCN still are with IB and hence OW. Being able to book BCN-MIA-DFW and then back through MAD or LHR to BCN makes flying to the US much more convenient than before.
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:46 pm

Quoting Talaier (Reply 25):
Bear in mind a lot of the corporate contracts in BCN still are with IB and hence OW. Being able to book BCN-MIA-DFW and then back through MAD or LHR to BCN makes flying to the US much more convenient than before.

In comparison, with OW, how many flights are going into BCN from AA?

And of course, would Vueling ever join an alliance (or have they? I've been out of the loop)
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
Talaier
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 7:38 pm

RE: DL JFK-PRG And ATL-BCN To Become Seasonal

Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:04 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 26):

In comparison, with OW, how many flights are going into BCN from AA?

And of course, would Vueling ever join an alliance (or have they? I've been out of the loop)

Daily MIA and daily JFK, both 767s. That adds to the flights operated by IB and AA to the US from MAD (you board in BCN with a single flight number and clear Schengen customs in BCN) which aren't technically direct but is as close as it gets without having the same plane.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 3wheelbogey, A332DTW, AirIndia, Alexa [Bot], ATLFlyer323, aviationaware, bohica, BreninTW, daninovandri, FLJ, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], grbauc, hoons90, jbs2886, PanHAM, pdx, PlanesNTrains, seat1a, Tomassjc and 234 guests