alexinwa
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SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:09 pm

So,I havent been in SEA in a while, spending more time in the PDX area.

How is EK doing on SEA-DXB?
DL on CDG?
LH on FRA?
DL on AMS?

Ive head FI is doing wonderful to Iceland?

NH coming into the SEA-NRT market, haven't seen any plans by UA to drop it. In fact you can book UA to NRT from SEA well into next year.

I heard rumors of UA adding flights out of SEA. Basically in an attempt to stop the DL march. HKG would be logical with the 787?

Ideas? Facts? Comments?
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ER757
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting alexinwa (Thread starter):
How is EK doing on SEA-DXB?

Not sure on passenger loads but I know they're doing very well with cargo. Didn't start out that way, but nowadays they're full up most of the time.

Quoting alexinwa (Thread starter):
Ive head FI is doing wonderful to Iceland?

That's the word I've gotten from my friends at the Port of Seattle too.
 
kl911
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting ER757 (Reply 1):
That's the word I've gotten from my friends at the Port of Seattle too.

Would they know the yield though? I guess just loadfactor, which doesnt mean anything. Only Ryanair can make a profit with a 100% loadfactor with free tickets.  
 
ANA787
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:41 pm

Quoting alexinwa (Thread starter):
NH coming into the SEA-NRT market, haven't seen any plans by UA to drop it. In fact you can book UA to NRT from SEA well into next year.

Yields are going to suffer on SEA-NRT with TWO star alliance carriers. UA SEA-NRT is toast IMO. The 777 would be more profitable elsewhere.
 
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:05 pm

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 3):
UA SEA-NRT is toast IMO. The 777 would be more profitable elsewhere.

   They might be able to work a SEA-PVG flight with the 777 or if all else fails, a UA 787 (or China Eastern   )
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BoeingGuy
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:54 pm

I had heard that the AF SEA-CDG flight was also doing beautifully. Is that correct? Just because the joint-venture partners decided to have DL metal flying the flight (and not discontinuing it) doesn't necessarily tell me otherwise, as some have speculated.

I flew the AF SEA flight once and it was the best coach product I have ever been one - period! But I'll take a DL 763 anytime over not having the flight at all.

So what's next internationally out of SEA? HKG? PVG? Another LHR flight (VS or DL)? MEX on AS? GDL on AS?
 
roseflyer
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:21 pm

I think the DL 767 destinations are most at risk other than UA SEA-NRT. KIX, PEK and CDG are likely the most at risk being that they cannot be downsized. PEK has competition against Hainan and I don't think Hainan is completely profit focused as SEA is their only US destination, so I think they would keep the route even if it is loss making. KIX and CDG are both secondary to NRT and AMS for connecting feed and rely on O/D.

As for new service, CX is shrinking its US presence, so I don't think they are a possibility to HKG. DL to PVG may be a possibility if PEK is doing well.
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BoeingGuy
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 6):
I think the DL 767 destinations are most at risk other than UA SEA-NRT. KIX, PEK and CDG are likely the most at risk being that they cannot be downsized.

Who says the DL 767 destinations are at risk. Maybe CDG, KIX and PEK are doing well. Like I said, just because AF turned over the SEA flight to their joint-venture partner doesn't tell me that CDG isn't doing well or is at risk. DL and AF (and KL) sometimes shift capacity to each other.

I can certainly see the UA NRT flight going if/when (probably when) one of the AA/JL joint-venture partners start SEA-NRT. My guess is that will be on JL metal (or more likely JL composites if you know what I equipment I'm referring to).
 
roseflyer
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:36 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):

Who says the DL 767 destinations are at risk. Maybe CDG, KIX and PEK are doing well. Like I said, just because AF turned over the SEA flight to their joint-venture partner doesn't tell me that CDG isn't doing well or is at risk. DL and AF (and KL) sometimes shift capacity to each other.

Just based on the fact that they can't go down in capacity. The 767 is already the smallest airplane capable of flying 10 hour routes. DL's AMS and NRT both have the larger A330s and in peak season go beyond daily.

Asiana and Korean do not serve SEA daily, so it is always possible that one of the two of them could pull out.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
olddominion727
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:54 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 5):

NWA flew SEA-LHR for a short time. But DL never picked it up. It was the same time AF flew LAX-LHR
 
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ER757
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 5):
I had heard that the AF SEA-CDG flight was also doing beautifully. Is that correct?

Yes, that is the story as far as I ever heard. I know several folks who were frequent SEA/CDG travelers and they were quite shocked that AF ceded the route to DL. Every one of them preferred the AF product to DL's.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 2):
Quoting ER757 (Reply 1):
That's the word I've gotten from my friends at the Port of Seattle too.

Would they know the yield though? I guess just loadfactor, which doesnt mean anything.

True enough - no idea what the yields are. I know there's a fair amount of connecting traffic beyond KEF, definitely not all O&D
 
wedgetail737
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:38 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 8):

I doubt you will see KE or OZ leaving SEA anytime soon. There is a very large Korean population near SEA. Although, KE reducea to an A330 during the winter.
 
point2point
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:56 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 5):
MEX on AS?

This one? Just maybe.......

Did either AM of MX once have a MEX-SEA nonstop? I seem to keep thinking that there once was this n/s.

 
 
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Tomassjc
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:37 am

Quoting ER757 (Reply 1):
Quoting alexinwa (Thread starter):
How is EK doing on SEA-DXB?

Not sure on passenger loads but I know they're doing very well with cargo. Didn't start out that way, but nowadays they're full up most of the time.


I'm fairly amazed at the amount of feed we have had on AS SJC-SEA for the EK DXB flight. We've had quite a few folks connecting onwards to the Indian Subcontinent. Especially the past few Saturdays...around 25-30 passengers on average. Not too bad considering EK service just up the road out of SFO.

Tom AS SJC
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wedgetail737
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:35 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 13):

Depending on when. Most recently, AM. 20 or so years ago, MX.
 
ORDJOE
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:37 am

I would think with all the tech firms and overall wealth population around seatle that these flights are probably doing alright.
 
EricR
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:40 am

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 14):

This could be a negative sign. EK may be attempting to fill their SEA flights by offering Bay Area residents lower connecting fares via SEA. This may be a good option for NorCal passengers seeking lower fares versus the N/S route from SFO, but it definitely hurts yields on the SEA flight.
 
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:11 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 17):
This could be a negative sign. EK may be attempting to fill their SEA flights by offering Bay Area residents lower connecting fares via SEA. This may be a good option for NorCal passengers seeking lower fares versus the N/S route from SFO, but it definitely hurts yields on the SEA flight


A few passengers did mention that they could not get seats on the SFO-DXB flight. But yes, I do know that because of the recent AS-EK agreement, fares have been lower through SEA.

Tom SJC
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YULWinterSkies
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:51 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 6):
KIX and CDG are both secondary to NRT and AMS for connecting feed and rely on O/D.

Connection options in CDG are at least as many -if not more- than in AMS. I do not get your point at all.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 11):
I know there's a fair amount of connecting traffic beyond KEF, definitely not all O&D

This flight puts all Scandinavian capitals, and other N European cities two flights away from SEA, without connecting in the US and having to pick up bags etc... Note, this can also be done through AMS or CDG or FRA, but it adds choice and -probably- shortens flight times, and KEF is a fantastic airport to connect through.
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hiflyeras
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:33 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 13):
Did either AM of MX once have a MEX-SEA nonstop? I seem to keep thinking that there once was this n/s.

AM flew n/s SEA-MEX for about year...ending service about two years ago. I'd love to see AS give it a try but just don't think there's enough of a market to make it worthwhile.
 
roseflyer
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:59 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 19):

Connection options in CDG are at least as many -if not more- than in AMS. I do not get your point at all.

DL goes up to 12 weekly flights in the summer on SEA-AMS. It's a bigger and/or more entrenched market than CDG is.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 11):

Yes, that is the story as far as I ever heard. I know several folks who were frequent SEA/CDG travelers and they were quite shocked that AF ceded the route to DL. Every one of them preferred the AF product to DL's.

It doesn't surprise me that many would see AF to DL as a product downgrade going from the more comfortable AF cabin. Although when the SEA-CDG route starts reliably getting the flat seat product, opinions might change.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:52 am

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 3):
Yields are going to suffer on SEA-NRT with TWO star alliance carriers. UA SEA-NRT is toast IMO. The 777 would be more profitable elsewhere

Star A is not that big here in the NW, AS flier base is the biggest target audience and they fly DL or AA when AS is not an option for their flights. As AA has such a limited presence here in the Northwest, Delta will win out for overseas trips. It would be absolutely a ridiculous move for UA to start trying to take on DL head to head from SEA. My guess the UA 777 flying NRT-SEA now will be eliminated after NH starts up.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 11):
Yes, that is the story as far as I ever heard. I know several folks who were frequent SEA/CDG travelers and they were quite shocked that AF ceded the route to DL. Every one of them preferred the AF product to DL's

Maybe better service, but the masses of loyal AS fliers will want to be flying DL for their AS miles. Most that travel with any frequency ask for AS first, if not then DL. It makes sense DL to be flying SEA-CDG.
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76er
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:34 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 21):
DL goes up to 12 weekly flights in the summer on SEA-AMS.

The current DL timetable even shows 13, a mix of 763's and 333's. Not bad. On the other hand, KL/MP will end its weekly MD11F service to SEA this month after 20 years.
 
as739x
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:46 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 17):
This could be a negative sign. EK may be attempting to fill their SEA flights by offering Bay Area

The SFO-DXB is packed. IMHO is a matter of time, after the they are on property, till the A380 is on the SFO route.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
wedgetail737
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:32 pm

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 20):
AM flew n/s SEA-MEX for about year...ending service about two years ago. I'd love to see AS give it a try but just don't think there's enough of a market to make it worthwhile.

I think AS would be more successful at SEA-MEX with all of the possible connection traffic. AM did not have any real codeshare through SEA which made it primarily O/D. But I'm sure the flight through LAX is doing pretty well on its own.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 22):
It would be absolutely a ridiculous move for UA to start trying to take on DL head to head from SEA. My guess the UA 777 flying NRT-SEA now will be eliminated after NH starts up.

UA taking out their SEA-NRT service as well as the Skywest ops wouldn't surprise me at all.

NH is starting NRT-SEA-NRT with a 777-300ER. Remember, they are coming into SEA during the peak travel season (and of course baseball season) here in Seattle. So it makes sense that NH would come into SEA will their largest aircraft. NH could have easily announced new service with just 777-200ER or 767-300ER aircraft. I can see the Dreamliner service being seasonal rather than permanent...based on the Seattle travel season.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:00 pm

BTW, does anyone know how DE is doing on the SEA-FRA route? I noticed this summer, they went to 3X weekly 763's on the route. They only flew 2X weekly last year.
 
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ER757
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:25 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 24):
The SFO-DXB is packed. IMHO is a matter of time, after the they are on property, till the A380 is on the SFO route.

Does the A-380 have the legs to do DXB/SFO non-stop? If not, then it stands to reason that there will continue to be a fair number of folks doing the SJC/SEA run on AS to catch the SEA/DXB flight unless EK adds a second frequency on SFO/DXB. I don't see EK putting an A380 on a one-stop route to SFO.
 
as739x
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:33 pm

Quoting ER757 (Reply 27):

The new batch with a higher TOW will. And the A380 has been dicussed for SFO.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
Viscount724
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:28 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 19):
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 6):
KIX and CDG are both secondary to NRT and AMS for connecting feed and rely on O/D.

Connection options in CDG are at least as many -if not more- than in AMS. I do not get your point at all.

But, given the choice, would you prefer to connect at AMS or CDG? I don't know anyone who would answer CDG.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:47 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
But, given the choice, would you prefer to connect at AMS or CDG? I don't know anyone who would answer CDG.

Everyone keeps saying this. I've connected at CVG twice and had no problems at all. I don't understand what the big deal is. It was at least as good - if not better actually - than when I connected at AMS. They had special lines at security for if your connection time was tight. It was efficient. Someone enlighten me as to why it's supposed to be so bad to connect at CDG.

I've connected at CDG and AMS. So now you know one guy who'd answer CDG.
 
yvphx
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:48 am

I was at SEA a couple weeks ago, and traveled onto the south satellite just at the EK was boarding. It was booked to 110 on a 772. Take it for that its worth, but it was on a Tuesday.

What shocked me the most, is before any boarding began, all cargo doors were closed up and locked before passengers boarded. I think this is a non-revers dream for a DXB destination.
 
panamair
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:13 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 29):
Someone enlighten me as to why it's supposed to be so bad to connect at CDG.

To be fair, CDG has improved the transfer process over the years (and will get better once AF consolidates even more operations in fewer terminals/satellites). But a good portion of CDG connections is still reliant on riding slow and unreliable buses around the airport on long and convoluted routings....
 
Viscount724
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:21 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 29):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
But, given the choice, would you prefer to connect at AMS or CDG? I don't know anyone who would answer CDG.

Everyone keeps saying this. I've connected at CVG twice and had no problems at all. I don't understand what the big deal is. It was at least as good - if not better actually - than when I connected at AMS. They had special lines at security for if your connection time was tight. It was efficient. Someone enlighten me as to why it's supposed to be so bad to connect at CDG.

It's the design of CDG with multiple terminals that aren't effectively connected to facilitate connections. AMS was designed from the beginning to make connections simple, since KLM has always relied much more heavily on 6th freedom connecting traffic than AF. For example, signage at AMS has won many awards for its clarity. I always find CDG confusing, no matter how many times I have connected there. It's fine if you're beginning or ending your trip in Paris but for connections I do my best to avoid it.

Another factor is that the quality of English spoken in the Netherlands is vastly better than in France. It's better than it used to be in France but there's still a big difference. You often encounter staff at CDG security checkpoints and in other parts of the terminal who speak little or no English. That's unheard of at AMS where most people speak English as well as I do.

Another factor, in my experience, is that strikes and related labour disruptions seem much less common in the Netherlands than in France. That's another reason why I avoid CDG as you never know when there's going to be a strike, whether it's AF, the security staff, the trains to/from Paris etc. etc.
 
dinker225
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:54 am

I flew SEA-DXB roundtrip. On the way there on a Sunday was roughly 70% load in economy. Coming back on a Wednesday all classes were 100%. I was shocked at the loads. I had read on here many times that the flight was not doing well load wise. I know 100% load doesn't mean it's profitable but it must be better than half empty.

Dinker
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gunsontheroof
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:04 pm

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 3):
Yields are going to suffer on SEA-NRT with TWO star alliance carriers. UA SEA-NRT is toast IMO. The 777 would be more profitable elsewhere.

I'm going to be surprised if UA is still on the route when winter season rolls around again. Heck, I'd be surprised if UA and NH haven't already reached an understanding that ANA is the *A carrier on NRT-SEA from now on.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 5):
I flew the AF SEA flight once and it was the best coach product I have ever been one - period! But I'll take a DL 763 anytime over not having the flight at all.

I flew LAX-CDG a few years ago and wasn't overly impressed with the coach product on AF. It was certainly nice, just nothing that I'd go out of my way to write home about. That being said, it beats the pants off of DL's coach product on the 763.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 5):
So what's next internationally out of SEA? HKG? PVG? Another LHR flight (VS or DL)? MEX on AS? GDL on AS?

POS said some years ago that they're actively pursuing PVG. I could definitely see it happening when the Chinese carriers start getting their 787s. DL taking a stab at HKG wouldn't surprise me, but that might be a few years away.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 6):
I don't think Hainan is completely profit focused as SEA is their only US destination, so I think they would keep the route even if it is loss making.

Does anyone have any information on this one? It's been going for a few years but I really haven't seen any discussion of its performance pop up around here.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 8):
Asiana and Korean do not serve SEA daily, so it is always possible that one of the two of them could pull out.

Doubt it...OZ has been flying to SEA for over a decade and KE has increased service over the eight or so years they've been here. ICN-SEA is a reasonably strong market, I think there's always going to be room for both.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 10):
Yes, that is the story as far as I ever heard. I know several folks who were frequent SEA/CDG travelers and they were quite shocked that AF ceded the route to DL. Every one of them preferred the AF product to DL's.

There was a story in the Seattle Times' travel section not too long ago about this...lots of unhappy frequent fliers around here it seems.

Quoting 76er (Reply 22):
On the other hand, KL/MP will end its weekly MD11F service to SEA this month after 20 years.

Sorry to hear that. I see that flight leaving town surprisingly frequently considering that it only operates on Sunday...sharp-looking birds. It's a shame to loose them, though I guess we can take some consolation that the 748 is starting to show up here and there with the Cargolux run...
 
AS739BSI
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:38 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 34):
There was a story in the Seattle Times' travel section not too long ago about this...lots of unhappy frequent fliers around here it seems.

And based off the OAG thread, others have chosen to travel elsewhere with DL reducing it to 6x weekly in the Fall.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:45 pm

Quoting AS739BSI (Reply 35):
And based off the OAG thread, others have chosen to travel elsewhere with DL reducing it to 6x weekly in the Fall.

Sorry to disappoint you, but the AF flight was also 6x weekly during the off-season. That tells me absolutely nothing except that the flight is still doing very well since it's daily now, and only missing 1x weekly during the off-season. Apparently enough people got over whining to the Seattle Times and are still taking the flight so it's maintaining its existing frequency.

As much as I liked AF, I'd take a DL 763 any day over a 3-4-3 777 coach seat any day.

SLC must really be miserable about gaining a non-stop to CDG. They've always had a DL 767. I'm sure CVG is pretty angry about having DL non-stop to CDG also.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:02 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 36):
As much as I liked AF, I'd take a DL 763 any day over a 3-4-3 777 coach seat any day.

But the SEA-CDG flight with AF was operated with an A332 or (occassionally) A343. I saw both many times, never saw a 777 on the route.

DL will do just fine with SEA-CDG. It's been said around here that upgrades are coming to the 763 fleet and I wouldn't be terribly surprised if this flight switched to an A330 at some point. Losing AF is a bummer for enthusiasts, but we still have the route and I think we tend to forget that DL jumping on it is a sign that they might have more plans for SEA, which is a good thing.
 
AS739BSI
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:20 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 36):

Misunderstanding, I thought the OAG showed the changes year over year, not in comparison to what was for sale.

[Edited 2012-06-19 16:44:03]
 
BA
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:40 pm

AF was actually 5x weekly during the winter and this year they reduced service to 4x weekly between mid-January to mid-February.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: SEA...CDG/DXB/AMS/FRA/NRT

Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:51 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 37):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 36):
As much as I liked AF, I'd take a DL 763 any day over a 3-4-3 777 coach seat any day.

But the SEA-CDG flight with AF was operated with an A332 or (occassionally) A343. I saw both many times, never saw a 777 on the route.

I know. I was just making a general statement that it isn't necessarily true that AF will always be better than DL to CDG. If I had the choice of an AF 3-4-3 777 or a DL 763 to CDG in coach, say going via LAX or SLC, I'd definitely pick DL.