LAXDESI
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Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:04 pm

Going with Star would enable them to keep its hub at BRU if they so choose. MUC would be another possibility based on their recent requests to Indian authorities. Going with Skyteam would suggest AMS as a possible hub.

Past reports suggest that Skyteam had offered a JV deal to Jet. I wonder if Star is willing or able to match a JV deal.

Past reports also suggest that Jet is more inclined towards joining Star, and that may have to do with the fact that most of UA hubs(EWR, ORD, LAX, SFO, IAD, IAH) have large Indian American populations.

It has been suggested by some that GOI will not permit Jet to join Star unless AI gets to join Star too.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...e-skyteam/articleshow/14205609.cms

Quote:
Jet Airways, which has been in advanced talks to join the global airlines' grouping Star Alliance, is also holding discussions with the competing alliance SkyTeam.

"We are in talks both with Star Alliance and Sky Team. Let us see what materialises. That is all I can tell you at this point of time," Jet Airways Chairman Naresh Goyal told PTI.
 
TeamintheSky
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:52 pm

I feel that soon the perverbial fat lady will sing on my hopes of Jet joining SkyTeam.

They are pulling operations from JFK, and with their EWR and BRU operations and strong ties they already have with other Star carriers, I have little doubt that they will annouce Star sometime shortly.

I guess SkyTeam will be left with Indigo or a gulf carrier to gain routes in India.

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sturmovik
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:13 am

What's the status on AI and *A? Which way is that pendulum swinging now, after all the back-n-forth they've been doing?
Personally, I find it unlikely that the GoI will play nice, and 9W might not be allowed to join unless AI also does.
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LJ
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:47 am

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 1):
I guess SkyTeam will be left with Indigo or a gulf carrier to gain routes in India.

I wonder if IndiGo is not a better option for Skyteam anyway. Yes, 9W has shiny widebodies and is a full service airline, but financially it isn't great. Moreover, if Skyteam just wants an Indian airline for Indian domestic flights, IndiGo is enough.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:41 am

Quoting sturmovik (Reply 2):
What's the status on AI and *A? Which way is that pendulum swinging now, after all the back-n-forth they've been doing?
Personally, I find it unlikely that the GoI will play nice, and 9W might not be allowed to join unless AI also does.

Excellent point, is AI *A or nothing? And 9W has two suitors? Seems 9W and AI in the same alliance could give the combined force to compete with encroaching middle east carriers, on the other hand I'd see a diluted market share for both carriers to fight for. IMHO, 9W would be a better candidate vs AI for *A, I know sent some of my 1K's client on AI once for a quick way to get to FRA from LAX last minute, LH was sold out, they were so unhappy at the end of that flight and they were in J, I can't see a premium *A passenger being happy with AI as a carrier overall, but 9W does some things much better.
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aeroblogger
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:05 pm

Indian Ministry of Civil Aviation has made it clear that IT, 9W, and AI must all be in seperate alliances to avoid monopoly effects. I think this is a good policy which makes sense.

If 9W joins ST, AI will join *A. If 9W joins *A, AI will probably join ST. IT was going to join OW, but now OW might be shut out of the Indian market...

Quoting LJ (Reply 3):

I wonder if IndiGo is not a better option for Skyteam anyway.

it would be very expensive for 6E to become alliance-ready. Currently, many of their systems, policies, etc. are not in line with IATA, and that creates a lot of hurdles for joining an alliance.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 1):
They are pulling operations from JFK, and with their EWR and BRU operations and strong ties they already have with other Star carriers, I have little doubt that they will annouce Star sometime shortly.

Pulling from JFK is just because BRU-JFK cannot sustain 2 carriers, an SN has no plans to quit the route. I expect 9W will codeshare with SN on the route anyway.

If 9W decides to join ST, they have stated in the past that they will move their scissor hub to AMS or MXP. If they decide to join *A, they are expected to move their scissor hub to MUC. Current network adjustments don't really signal much in terms of potential alliance membership.

I think that things could really go either way right now... AI will be hoping 9W chooses SkyTeam (possibly with some Government pressure), so AI can join *A and the Indian carrier/alliance situation gets sorted out.

Even if 9W joins *A, then AI can probably join SkyTeam fairly quickly.

As a frequent flyer, some decision is all that I'm hoping for. The faster AI and 9W join their respective alliances, the happier I'll be.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 4):
I know sent some of my 1K's client on AI once for a quick way to get to FRA from LAX last minute, LH was sold out, they were so unhappy at the end of that flight and they were in J, I can't see a premium *A passenger being happy with AI as a carrier overall, but 9W does some things much better.

I'm surprised to hear this. AI has a far superior hard product to LH (fully lie-flat). I personally like the soft product better too, although some disagree with me on that. During IRROPS, AI can be a hassle. But the rest of the time, it's a decent carrier.

A few years ago, 9W used to be far better than it currently is, and AI used to be far worse. Past impressions can be highly misleading...

[Edited 2012-06-18 05:13:55]
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sf260
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:06 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 5):

Pulling from JFK is just because BRU-JFK cannot sustain 2 carriers, an SN has no plans to quit the route. I expect 9W will codeshare with SN on the route anyway.

Currently there are 4 carriers operating to JFK (SN, AA, 9W, DL) and UA serves EWR as well from BRU. I think it is rather inefficient of 9W to serve both JFK and EWR from BRU.
 
aeroblogger
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:27 pm

Quoting sf260 (Reply 6):
Currently there are 4 carriers operating to JFK (SN, AA, 9W, DL) and UA serves EWR as well from BRU. I think it is rather inefficient of 9W to serve both JFK and EWR from BRU.

Ah, you're right. I forgot about the DL and AA competition as well. Regardless, the point is the same - there is too much competition, and 9W can serve JFK just as effectively through an SN codeshare, so they are pulling out. Has little relevance to alliance choice.
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jumpjets
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:32 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 5):
but now OW might be shut out of the Indian market...

Its interesting that BA has announced resumption of some Indian domestic codeshares with IT. They presumably think that the IT situation has stabilised sufficiently for the published flights to actually take place. So maybe there is still a bit of life left in the old dog and that OW membership may one day come to fruition.
 
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:35 pm

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 8):
Its interesting that BA has announced resumption of some Indian domestic codeshares with IT. They presumably think that the IT situation has stabilised sufficiently for the published flights to actually take place. So maybe there is still a bit of life left in the old dog and that OW membership may one day come to fruition.

No, they have not announced resumption. The filing was in error, and was removed last Friday.

IT's situation has stabilized somewhat, but they are still bleeding cash big time, and I don't see a way for them to survive. Their only hope is more investment, and nobody appears to be willing to provide that right now.
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JOYA380B747
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 5):
Indian Ministry of Civil Aviation has made it clear that IT, 9W, and AI must all be in seperate alliances to avoid monopoly effects. I think this is a good policy which makes sense.

I believe they'd only included the then Big 3 airlines in this 'law', but now that IT is out of the picture, and IndiGo is ahead of AI, "dear Ministry its time to make some new laws for the industry you so heavily torture." 
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 5):
If 9W decides to join ST, they have stated in the past that they will move their scissor hub to AMS or MXP. If they decide to join *A, they are expected to move their scissor hub to MUC. Current network adjustments don't really signal much in terms of potential alliance membership.

Wasn't there a thread before where discussions lead to the fact in case 9W joins Star, they'd be better off with BRU dominance rather than face LH monopoly in MUC?   
If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
 
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:12 pm

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 10):

I believe they'd only included the then Big 3 airlines in this 'law', but now that IT is out of the picture, and IndiGo is ahead of AI, "dear Ministry its time to make some new laws for the industry you so heavily torture."

It wasn't a law, it was a guideline. Which they planned to enforce rigidly.

As I've said many times before, it is too expensive for 6E to join an alliance for it to be warranted right now. Aditya Ghosh has said so many times. AI and 9W will join some combination of *A/ST, and OW will likely be forced to live with UL.

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 10):

Wasn't there a thread before where discussions lead to the fact in case 9W joins Star, they'd be better off with BRU dominance rather than face LH monopoly in MUC?

Yes, we agreed to some extent that it would be more rational for 9W to stay at BRU. However, 9W seems to love irrational decisions...
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LAXDESI
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 5):
Indian Ministry of Civil Aviation has made it clear that IT, 9W, and AI must all be in seperate alliances to avoid monopoly effects. I think this is a good policy which makes sense.

Agree.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 5):
If 9W joins ST, AI will join *A. If 9W joins *A, AI will probably join ST. IT was going to join OW, but now OW might be shut out of the Indian market...

I had the impression that the ministry wasn't going to allow 9W to join Star if AI did not get to join Star first. Is the change due to the new aviation minister?
 
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 12):
I had the impression that the ministry wasn't going to allow 9W to join Star if AI did not get to join Star first. Is the change due to the new aviation minister?

MoCA has decided to be firm on the 1 airline per alliance rule instead of worrying about AI being first.
*A is refusing to let AI join until AI agrees to let 9W into *A as well. AI refused, citing MoCA rule.
If 9W joins *A first, then AI cannot join and will therefore probably go to SkyTeam. If 9W joins SkyTeam, then *A will let AI in.

Either way, AI's alliance decision is dependent on 9W's choice at this point.
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LAXDESI
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 13):
Either way, AI's alliance decision is dependent on 9W's choice at this point.

Then I am hoping for 9W joining Star as I tend to fly Star more often than other alliances.

Which way is Jet leaning as per your sources?
 
TeamintheSky
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:24 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 14):
Then I am hoping for 9W joining Star as I tend to fly Star more often than other alliances.

Which way is Jet leaning as per your sources?

I don't have any sources, but I have been following this with interest for a while (per my name I do follow SkyTeam news as best as possible), and 9W has always been leaning towards Star. I honestly have never envisioned them outside of Star. But once the GOI announced a 1 airline per alliance rule (with AI supposedly about to join Star) and 9W signing a deal with AZ, I became hopeful as 9W would be a great member for any alliance.
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ytz
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:07 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 14):
Then I am hoping for 9W joining Star as I tend to fly Star more often than other alliances.

+1 For me ... and many other Canadians.
 
aeroblogger
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:23 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 14):
Which way is Jet leaning as per your sources?

My understanding is that 9W is leaning towards Star - but at the end of the day, I think it'll just be whichever alliance gives them a sweeter deal. Joining SkyTeam is a very real possibility.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 15):
But once the GOI announced a 1 airline per alliance rule (with AI supposedly about to join Star) and 9W signing a deal with AZ, I became hopeful as 9W would be a great member for any alliance.

Don't give up hope yet  
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:33 am

I think 9W will be able to choose their alliance (*A or Skyteam). It will be interesting to see which way they go.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 9):
IT's situation has stabilized somewhat, but they are still bleeding cash big time, and I don't see a way for them to survive. Their only hope is more investment, and nobody appears to be willing to provide that right now.

That sums it up. When OW first courted IT, they were a large player in the Indian market. Now? 5.3% Per my own calculations from (hattip LAXDESI):

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...se-ground/articleshow/14246282.cms

From post #29 of this thread: Indian Aviation Thread: Part 98 (by LAXDESI Jun 13 2012 in Civil Aviation)


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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:50 pm

As 9W holds negotiations with both alliances, it is also considering launching new destinations in Europe. So far, 9W has mentioned CDG, MUC and FRA as potential new destinations.
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TeamintheSky
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RE: Jet(9W) In Advanced Talks With Star And Skyteam

Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:57 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 19):
As 9W holds negotiations with both alliances, it is also considering launching new destinations in Europe. So far, 9W has mentioned CDG, MUC and FRA as potential new destinations.



Would love for 9W to join the transatlantic JV and for the scissor hub to be CDG. Would look good to have AF, AM, DL, VN, and 9W all parked next to eachother.
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