Tobias2702
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BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:35 am

Hi guys, why hasn't BA ordered more A321s? As LHR is so congested, adding capacity seems to be the only way of growth.

I compared the BA fleet with LH's. At FRA, there are around as many LH A321 departures per day as combined for their other shorthaul types (A319/A320/733/735). Once they 737 will be phased out, LH will operate something like 60x A321, 70x A320 and 35x A319, with most of the smaller a/c based at the smaller hubs like MUC, DUS, BER. With BA, these numbers (including upcoming deliveries) are somthing like 15 - 50 - 45.

So, why isn't BA ordering larger shorthaul aircraft to be able to grow?
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Burkhard
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:46 am

I also wondered this, BA was using the B757 a lot on short routes, when I flew they always were full, so the A321 seems like a natural choce.
 
parapente
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:00 am

It might be a matter of 'watch this space'. The parent company only said last week that the golbal (and particularly the European) recessions had put back planned procurement plans.Perhaps this is one.

As above. Since BA always made very heavy use of the 757 and they already make good use of their 321's - yes it does seem logical. Who knows there might be a juicy order in the wings that is being put out to both Boeing and Airbus re their 'brand new' re engined aircraft.

There has just been a debate re the 788 being 20% more efficient than the 767 (ANA). Can you imagine how much more efficient a 'feather' wingletted,re engined,re wingprofiled, B739 would be against an old 757. 25% at least? even 30% I would imagine.(Just using Boeing products as an example - they use both).

So I am sure the order will come in some form sometime.
 
AirbusA6
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:23 am

After a previous decision to increase the size of their aircraft, BA made the decision a few years ago to downsize their aircraft, thus reducing the number of cheap Y seats that they had to 'give away', hence replacing 757s with smaller A319s and A320s, rather than the more comparable in size A321.
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rutankrd
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:13 am

Strategy set in 2002 called The Future Size and Shape programme initiated to save £650m took 12,000 staff out of business and lead to as Airbus A6 said rescaling of capacity.

At the time the idea was to maintain front cabin (Premium loads) however reduce the Y (Economy) number.

This was an accountancy thing as Y fares were seen a revenue not covering costs !

The 757s were due replacement, were seen as over capacity for many routes over powered and increasingly expensive to operate.

BA determined they could retain the same premium numbers with the A32x mix whilst reducing operating costs and loosing the un-economic and price sensitive Y tickets.- they were already beginning to loose these to the developing LCC anyway.

Hense the orders for A320/319 in the main and a few A321 models - 6 were initially ordered for use on high density routes where capacity still required those (Y) seats - they were if memory serves mainly based in T4 for Paris/Amsterdam/Zurich/Vienna routes from 2004 and additional aircraft was delivered in 2005 and 4 in 2007.

A321 aircraft of BMED and GB Airways franchisees has operated in BA colours for several years before BA received their own frames.

The ex bmi (BMED) machines were originally among the earliest in BA colours !

Interestingly whilst the idea of the A23x fleet commonality is based on flexibility BA have generally tried to retain the 321 models as a sub fleet operating specific routes.
Some swapping out does happen through.
 
LX138
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:06 am

As said above, the last major short-haul order was for a mass of A319's when they were struggling with the rise of the LCC's. The downsizing in capacity was seen as economic sense.

Likewise, the 757's were ordered in an era when it was the norm to pay £400 for a shorthaul ticket to anywhere (inc. domestic!) and so these aircraft were ideal, both in capacity and running costs - as the A32S type didn't even exist then!

Since then, times have changed and the BA short-haul operation has stabilised, leading to A319 orders being converted to A320's and A321's. If a LH comparison must be made, it's worth noting that BA operates 767's on a range of European routes.
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anstar
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:23 am

I believe some new A320's came online and replaced A319's which were sent to LGW for summer?? was that the case or am I dreaming this?
 
psimpson
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:43 am

I was at LHR this past Saturday planespotting, and noticed that BA were using the A321s on a lot of the Shuttle flights.
 
jwhite9185
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:44 am

Quoting anstar (Reply 6):

Yeah, 2x A319 are based at LGW for the summer. I believe the A319 will eventually replace the 734 fleet at LGW, much like they did at LHR in the early 2000's.
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rutankrd
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:05 pm

Quoting jwhite9185 (Reply 8):
Yeah, 2x A319 are based at LGW for the summer. I believe the A319 will eventually replace the 734 fleet at LGW, much like they did at LHR in the early 2000's.

No decision on that yet.

The Gatwick 319 fleet has gone as high as 5 based in the past.
All were transferred back to LHR last winter and two have returned for the peak summer.

The current unsubstantiated rumour regarding Gatwick as a temporary measure is that the bmiBaby 733 frames are making their way south to ease the pressure of the 734 fleet (Or it may be BA can't buy out the leases cheaply enough so are dumping them at LGW for the time being)

As for the DLH comparisons well one of the major differences relates to the type and method of hub operations.

Whilst BA are active in transferring Europeans over the North Atlantic and these connections can be fed with smaller aircraft (premium heavy) a significant amount of the transfer traffic is actually Long haul- Long haul US-Sub continent US- Middle East and US- West/South Africa. Note the common thread (North Atlantic) this is the only market in which BA are surely strong.

BA haven't made significant changes to the LHR - Europe route network in many years only changing now as bmi are integrated with some new slot holders (LBA/RTM for instance.)

DLH however retains a comprehensive network of domestic (Long distance) and EU wide routes and feeding the large *A hubs at both Munich and Frankfurt - Further both of those cities have a sizeable O&D demand as well. Further more they have never plagued themselves with a strategic retrenchment policy that actually throughs away paying customers
 
babybus
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:29 pm

These are different times. The 757 was great during the 80s with growing GDP and hence growing passenger numbers. It's all a rather different kettle of fish now. Smaller airplanes make for higher fares. Supply and demand and all that.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 3):
thus reducing the number of cheap Y seats that they had to 'give away',

I've never known BA, in all my years of travelling with them, to give away anything. They are scared to give away an inch of legroom in Y.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
mikey72
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:41 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 10):
I've never known BA, in all my years of travelling with them, to give away anything. They are scared to give away an inch of legroom in Y.

That's a bit mean isn't it ?





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Dreamflight.

To name but two.
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mikey72
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:44 pm

Here's another for good measure.



  
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SKAirbus
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:47 pm

Remember that BA have inherited a number of A321s with the BMI purchase, which no doubt will be repainted into BA colours along with the A319s and A320s.
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rutankrd
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 10):
These are different times. The 757 was great during the 80s with growing GDP and hence growing passenger numbers. It's all a rather different kettle of fish now. Smaller airplanes make for higher fares. Supply and demand and all that.

Yes but the decision was made 10 Years ago and was indeed based on maintaining margin (yield) at the expansion of volume numbers.

That said and Tobias has a point the 321 could have been selected in much higher numbers potential revenue could have increased (as well as bums on seats) as the CASM (got that right?) numbers don't differ that much over the 320.

Quoting babybus (Reply 10):
I've never known BA, in all my years of travelling with them, to give away anything. They are scared to give away an inch of legroom in Y.

So true and especially within the EU and open sky Treaty nations (Norway/Switzerland and Morocco) one questions why any one would buy a fully flexible economy fare over say EasyJet based on comfort alone.
 
rutankrd
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:08 pm

Mikey drifting a bit there

No discredit for the pleasure the annual Dreamflight Florida trips bring to many terminally and chronically ill children (another free holiday for a few already over paid BBC kiddy presenters is a separate issue)

It does go straight to the tax deductible column and probably costs BA nothing !

As for the Worlds Greatest offers aren't these design to fill the off season - long haul flights rather than the typical business short haul.
 
mikey72
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:27 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 15):
As for the Worlds Greatest offers aren't these design to fill the off season - long haul flights rather than the typical business short haul.

Twenty years ago, the Gulf War was over, a recession was biting and airline load factors were plummeting.

Something drastic was needed, and BA provided it in the shape of the World's Biggest Offer,

A promotion the scale of which no one had ever seen before !

Free seats on every international flight on one day, effectively 25,000 pairs of free tickets.

You were saying.....

[Edited 2012-06-18 08:29:33]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
goosebayguy
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:40 pm

I'm sure I recall flying from EGNT-LHR on a B757 for free due to flying international from LHR. It made flying with BA very worthwhile. Then a year later they cancelled these offers sadly. These days I tend to fly from MAN direct and avoid LHR and BA loses the opportunity to serve.
 
mikey72
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:40 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 14):
So true and especially within the EU and open sky Treaty nations (Norway/Switzerland and Morocco) one questions why any one would buy a fully flexible economy fare over say EasyJet based on comfort alone.

Because you're in the Executive Club maybe ?

Just because you're going to Paris and back today you could be off to...I don't know...HKG...tomorrow...it all adds up....the points that is.

In which case you probably don't actually pay the fully flexible fare in the first place or if you do it's a way for the airline to suck more points out of you ?

Everyone knows airline ticketing is a Pandora's Box sat in the middle of a mine field...if you're a regular traveller you play the game to your advantage.

If you're not....there's always a flight at an inopportune time for about half the price....?
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
rutankrd
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 16):

Ten years ago, the Gulf War was over, a recession was biting and airline load factors were plummeting.

Something drastic was needed, and BA provided it in the shape of the World's Biggest Offer,

A promotion the scale of which no one had ever seen before !

Free seats on every international flight on one day, effectively 25,000 pairs of free tickets.

You were saying.....

Such promotions are not unheard of.

Ever seen a certain company with a blue and gold livery and a harp on the tail - Think they do something similar (admitted they con you with various other unavoidable charges and taxes you still have to pay)

What are BA fuel surcharges like at the moment plus ADP ?
 
mikey72
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 19):
Such promotions are not unheard of.

Ever seen a certain company with a blue and gold livery and a harp on the tail - Think they do something similar (admitted they con you with various other unavoidable charges and taxes you still have to pay)

What are BA fuel surcharges like at the moment plus ADP ?

Oh - well I know all that...I was just making a point that they did actually give something away for free 'once' (lol).....

Quoting babybus (Reply 10):
I've never known BA, in all my years of travelling with them, to give away anything.

Jeez - these days they gotta rake in every penny they can - and who can blame them.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
rutankrd
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 18):
Because you're in the Executive Club maybe ?

Just because you're going to Paris and back today you could be off to...I don't know...HKG...tomorrow...it all adds up....the points that is.

Agreed - I would outlaw ALL THESE FREQUENT FLYER PROGRAMMES. *( might be a bit soviet for today)

They are responsible for high business fares and forcing people through the hub systems rather than allowing the customer to decide (that's to dangerous)
 
mikey72
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:52 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 19):
Such promotions are not unheard of.

Ahh but 20 years ago FR was a glint in ol' Micks' eye.

These new fangled airlines are like kids who think they invented sex !!
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
vv701
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 4):
A321 aircraft of BMED and GB Airways franchisees has operated in BA colours for several years before BA received their own frames.

The "late" introduction of the 321 to the BA LHR based fleet seems to be primarily because BA were still operating a 752 fllet.

The first of BA's eleven 321s was delivered on 15 October 2004. At that time BA had a fleet of 13 752s. Two of these aircraft were transferred to OpenSkies in the early summer of 2008. The other eleven all remained in service with BA for a further 12 to 30 months, the last three being retired on 30 October 2010.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 20):
I was just making a point that they did actually give something away for free 'once' (lol).....

More than once. And a lot more recently. There was the BA "Face to Face" promotion in 2009.

In this promotion American businessmen were carried on three charter flights, one each from JFK, LAX and ORD to LHR. The flights were operated on 15 September (JFK), 13 October (LAX) and 17 November (ORD). In the passengers' pockets were three more complementary BA tickets. Two were for a return flight from LHR to the destination of their choice anywhere on the BA network. The third was to return home from LHR on their chosen scheduled flight.

The initial charter flights were on either a 744 (G-BNLO) or (from ORD) a 772 (G-VIIV). Both of these aircraft were still carrying the "Face to Face" titling very recently and probably still are:

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flyerboy1990
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:09 pm

Sorry, a bit off topic...

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 11):
That's a bit mean isn't it ?


I have NEVER seen a 767 with those engines (RR)! Who else has them? How do they compare performance-wise to PW and GE?
Flown in: 712, 722, 73G, 738, 752, DC10, CR2, CR9, A319, A320 Want to fly in: A330, 767, 777, MD80, E170 series
 
rutankrd
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 24):
have NEVER seen a 767 with those engines (RR)! Who else has them? How do they compare performance-wise to PW and GE?

Qantas and China Yunnan (merged into China Eastern)
 
bwaflyer
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:54 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 4):
A321 aircraft of BMED and GB Airways franchisees has operated in BA colours for several years before BA received their own frames.

The ex bmi (BMED) machines were originally among the earliest in BA colours !

And they'll be back in BA colours at the end of the summer in a new mid haul config operating a large part of the current bmi (former BMed) mid haul network.
 
Gemuser
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:16 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 25):
Quoting flyerboy1990 (Reply 24):
have NEVER seen a 767 with those engines (RR)! Who else has them? How do they compare performance-wise to PW and GE?

Qantas and China Yunnan (merged into China Eastern)

QF leased 7 BA RR powered B763 in the early 2000. BA subsequently sold them to various financial institutions who continue to lease them to QF. They are pretty much confined to domestic Australian ops and are the most hated aircraft in the fleet (by cabin crew, anyway).

Performance wise I can't really comment, but they do spend a lot of time plodding around the
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
laca773
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RE: BA - Why Not More A321s?

Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:05 am

Since BA really has the one main hub @ LHR, I feel it makes more sense for BA to fly more A319/A320s so they can maximize and control capacity tightly. In addition to this, it allows them to offer more frequencies in markets where there's quite a bit of business demand, i.e., ZRH, GVA are two that come to mind. If they were to fly these type of markets with A321s, I don't think we'd see the amount of frequencies we do now. At the same time, there are markets where the A321 is needed, i.e., FRA, CDG, MAD, BCN, UK shuttles and etc..

BA also is quite smart where they can up and downgauge flights according to demand each day for each flight if needed.