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rotating14
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ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:07 pm

Hey folks,

I just read where ANA has opted to swap a number of their 787-8's for 787-9's. The frames that in question were to be delivered next year. The link below provides more insight to this. They must think that the -9 is a better fit for their long haul operation.


http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20120619/BLOG01/120619909
 
spiritair97
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:10 pm

It'll be interesting to see where they fly the -9's. Could they possibly visit JFK? How close to 777-300ER are the 787-9's?
 
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:11 pm

Interesting:

Quote:

With the change, ANA has ordered a total of 36 787-8s, including those delivered, and 19 787-9 aircraft.

So not a huge swing.

Maybe now the QF guy can get a few earlier birds and quit his moaning.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
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Stitch
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:11 pm

Yes, NH made a partial switch of 15 frames a couple of years back and at least some of those planes will be used as direct replacements for their domestic 777-200 fleet as the 787-9 and 777-200 have effectively the same cabin length.

Looks like they're going to use them to start replacing their international 777-200 fleet, as well.
 
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rotating14
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:27 pm

Quote:
Looks like they're going to use them to start replacing their international 777-200 fleet, as well.

How old are those T7-200's?
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 4):
Quote:
Looks like they're going to use them to start replacing their international 777-200 fleet, as well.

How old are those T7-200's?

I believe they took delivery of a couple more PW4090 772ERs very recently.

Their international 772ERs are not in need of replacement. Their 772A and 773As will go first, I'd have thought. Got to be getting up there on cycles, been hammered to death.
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starrion
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:57 pm

That would probably account for the 'teens frames that will be going to Lion then.
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Stitch
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting starrion (Reply 6):
That would probably account for the 'teens frames that will be going to Lion then.

LN11, LN12, LN13, LN14 and LN18 are all in long-term storage, so I could see the first four being released back to Boeing for re-assignment.
 
Someone83
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:15 pm

Quote:
ANA said it has switched an order for four 787-8 aircraft, which were to be delivered beginning in 2013, to an order for four of Boeing's larger version of the Dreamliner, the 787-9.

This also implies deferring 4 787-8s to whenever the -9s kan be delivered
 
ikramerica
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:36 pm

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 8):

I think it's more an implication that NH don't want those very early frames based on performance?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
starrion
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:09 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 9):
I think it's more an implication that NH don't want those very early frames based on performance?

I think ANA has been aware for some time of the performance of the
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:13 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
Looks like they're going to use them to start replacing their international 777-200 fleet, as well.

ANA has 217 and 306 seat versions of the 77E . Proportionally they could supplement their 158-seat 788's with something like 204 seat 789's. This might be the attraction .
 
ikramerica
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting starrion (Reply 10):
I think ANA has been aware for some time of the performance of the

And have likely been negotiating with Boeing all that time to not take those aircraft.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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Stitch
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:37 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 9):
I think it's more an implication that NH don't want those very early frames based on performance?

They've taken the three worst frames around - LN7, LN8 and LN9 - so I see this more as a combination of NH starting to grow international and needing larger frames and also accepting that Boeing will not have the other frames (LN11-14) ready before they could get new-build 787-9s. And for Boeing, they have customers willing to wait for those frames.

So while it's not true serendipity, NH and Boeing are both making lemonade out of lemons.
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:34 pm

The 789 at about 126t OEW should be good for about 41t payload based on a HND-FRA scheduled time of 12hr 10min. Fuel burn would be about 71t. Its cargo space permits a good payload with the premium cabin layout that ANA use on many of their international routes.
 
SASMD82
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:02 pm

In an other thread not so long ago, there was discussed that ANA was sooo happy with the 788.....oh well....

This choice is very logical though (CASM e.g.).
 
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:15 pm

I don't know about you, but I'm at sixes and sevens on ANA's -8s and -9s!  
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
ebj1248650
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 15):
In an other thread not so long ago, there was discussed that ANA was sooo happy with the 788.....oh well....

I don't see anything in this thread that suggests ANA isn't happy with the -8. As has been suggested earlier in this thread, they need more of the -9s. They're still taking a goodly number of the -8s.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
KDAYflyer
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 5):
Their international 772ERs are not in need of replacement. Their 772A and 773As will go first, I'd have thought. Got to be getting up there on cycles, been hammered to death.

Maximum utilization for maximum profit, one could presume.

I believe Gigneil and Stitch predicted some time ago that the -9 would end up being the prefered bird for such use.
 
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:57 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
LN11, LN12, LN13, LN14 and LN18 are all in long-term storage, so I could see the first four being released back to Boeing for re-assignment.

Weren't a few of these going to LA ?
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Stitch
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19):
Weren't a few of these going to LA?

LAN are tasked LN10 and LN16 and I believe in the 787 production thread a post was made that the airline intends to take them.
 
ZKOJH
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:08 pm

They would be looking at 2Q of 2014 after NZ for theses birds then, as long as the 787-9 stays on track now.  
Vietnam time..
 
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seabosdca
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:10 pm

Quoting starrion (Reply 6):
That would probably account for the 'teens frames that will be going to Lion then.

Hmm? Where did this rumor come from? First I've heard of it.
 
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Stitch
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 22):
Hmm? Where did this rumor come from? First I've heard of it.

Batik Air, the long-haul subsidiary of Lion Air, placed an order for five 787-8s and it has been reported that they will come from the LN10-LN19 block currently parked at PAE. The order was firmed last week and reported on Boeing's O&D page, attributed to Lion Air.

[Edited 2012-06-19 16:20:05]
 
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
Batik Air, the long-haul subsidiary of Lion Air, placed an order for five 787-8s

Thanks! I saw that part...

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
and it has been reported that they will come from the LN10-LN19 block currently parked at PAE

...but not that part.

An interesting development.
 
ikramerica
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:55 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
They've taken the three worst frames around - LN7, LN8 and LN9

And may have said "no mas" and negotiated to reject frames in the teens.

The real question becomes will other carriers want them, or are they some more VIP aircraft looking for a customer?

They might make good Air Force 2 aircraft in the future...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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Stitch
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:04 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 25):
The real question becomes will other carriers want them, or are they some more VIP aircraft looking for a customer?

Batik Air is evidently good for five, which would be all of NH's frames.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:50 am

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 1):
How close to 777-300ER are the 787-9's?

How close based on what? Range? Capacity? Capacity-wise, nowhere close, rather near the A330-300.
When I doubt... go running!
 
Burkhard
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:53 am

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 1):
How close to 777-300ER are the 787-9's?

About 3/4 in size, so far away. Near to the 777-200ER, but still slightly smaller, but if you put 9 abreast in the 789 you can get the same number of pax with lower comfort and much lower CASM.
 
CXB77L
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:23 am

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 1):
How close to 777-300ER are the 787-9's?

NH's 77Ws are configured in a 215-seat and 262-seat configurations (will be reduced to 212 and 250 seats respectively with the imminent introduction of premium economy).

The 77W is significantly larger in terms of cabin area, but if NH adopts a higher density set-up on the 787-9 it could easily be fitted with 215 seats or more, although given their preference for low density configurations on its long haul aircraft, I believe that is unlikely to happen.

Range wise, the 787-9 has the 77W beat. While the 77W's maximum range is 7930nm, the 787-9 can fly between 8000 and 8500nm.

The 787-9 seems to be the natural replacement for the 777-200ER as it is more or less the same size, but it isn't quite big enough to replace the 777-300ER.
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sunrisevalley
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:08 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 29):
Range wise, the 787-9 has the 77W beat. While the 77W's maximum range is 7930nm, the 787-9 can fly between 8000 and 8500nm

To get over 8000nm with the standard 285 seat configuration the OEW has to be about 120t. This seems unlikely at EIS. The usual ratio of MTOW/OEW of ~.5 suggests an OEW of ~125t which would put it at ~ 7600nm.
 
KDAYflyer
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:20 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 24):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):Batik Air, the long-haul subsidiary of Lion Air, placed an order for five 787-8s
Thanks! I saw that part...

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):and it has been reported that they will come from the LN10-LN19 block currently parked at PAE
...but not that part.

An interesting development.

Indeed. I wonder how many early frames are likely to run into this scenario? Have any other carriers rejected the earlier frames who have been picked up by another carrier?
 
Fyano773
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:22 pm

@Stitch,

Do you happen to know about the slots or leases cancelled by Air Seychelles? IIRC, they were due to delivery by mid 2013 from ILFC.

Regards...
 
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lightsaber
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RE: ANA Swaps 8's For 9's

Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:32 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
They've taken the three worst frames around - LN7, LN8 and LN9

Sorry to nitpick, but ANA was offered the prototypes that Boeing later put on their books. So not quite the worst of the 787s. But close.  
Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
and needing larger frames and also accepting that Boeing will not have the other frames (LN11-14) ready before they could get new-build 787-9s.

I suspect this is the prime reason for the switch. My thoughts are:
1. Once 789s are available, why take the 788? That is analogous to taking 762ERs when 763ERs are available. We all know how the resale game played out there...
2. Guage has some to do with it. I suspect resale value also played a role.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 25):
And may have said "no mas" and negotiated to reject frames in the teens.

Its all a question of price too. I'm sure ANA made a low ball offer. It is not surprising another customer might be willing to pay more. That is just business. Boeing is going to negotiate to maximize revenue and profit.

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