sankaps
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ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:46 am

See http://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing...immable-windows-not-060313644.html .

Excerpt: "The Japanese airline is looking to install pull down blinds on 787s already delivered, an industry source with knowledge of the matter told Reuters. ANA wants darker windows for two Dreamliners operated on long haul routes, company spokesman Ryosei Nomura said."

Interesting, considering ANA is also boasting about a customer survey in which apparently the dimmable windows are highly praised. Says a lot about such surveys!  

[Edited 2012-06-20 02:53:40]
 
aeroblogger
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:54 am

From ANA Press Liaison, via FlightGlobal Reporter Firdaus Hashim:

Quote:
ANA clarified that they are NOT looking to install modifications on their 787 windows & issues they've raised with Boeing have been fixed.
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sankaps
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:57 pm

If that's true, then poor company spokesman Ryosei Nomura must be looking for a new job now, for having not toed the company's official line!  
 
nomadd22
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:16 pm

I'd wondered that myself when I saw the demos. It seemed like a lot of people would want total blackout when the sun is hitting the window and they wanted to sleep.
Did they install shades or modify the windows?
Anon
 
duncan16
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:00 pm

I too have heard that at altitude in direct sun, the windows do not get dark enough. (From the videos I have seen, they are also extremely slow to dim.) Perhaps BA will switch to a different type of dimmable window that goes to blackout. Here is a video of that window: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWUnmq9nFgk This would be better than adding blinds.
 
WarpSpeed
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:49 pm

Quoting duncan16 (Reply 5):
This would be better than adding blinds.

Knowing some revenue opportunistic airlines, we may see an extra charge for fully dimable windows  
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CM
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 3):
Did they install shades or modify the windows?

I'm not sure anything has been done yet, but the installation of mechanical shades is almost certainly not something Boeing would offer. The 787 sidewalls could not accommodate mechanical shades from a geometry standpoint, and there are much easier solutions.

The electro-chromic function in the 787 windows works by applying a small current to a gel-like material. The chemistry of this gel can be varied to control both the maximum level of opacity as well as the color of the tint. Boeing chose both the opacity and tint color based on a lot of testing and opinion studies... But they clearly have not ended up with a solution which satisfies everyone all of the time. I suspect the final outcome of this will be a revision to the gel chemistry to create a darker pane, or to move from the bluish tint used today to a more black tinting (human eyes are more sensitive to the blue/green spectrum than other colors of light). Boeing could end up offering more than one tint option for operators who want something closer to fully opaque windows.

The whole thing seems a bit embarrassing for Boeing, given their heavy marketing of this feature and Airbus' hammering on the "slow and ineffective" window shades on the 787. Regardless, I think this will end up being a tempest in a teapot. Boeing and ANA will settle on a solution that satisfies the objectives of both companies and the issue will be solved. From a PR standpoint it's a nightmare. From a technical standpoint, it's a nit.
 
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Stitch
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:33 pm

NH have already stated the original report was incorrect and whatever issue they did have has been addressed by Boeing, so I am a bit stumped on how this is a PR issue for Boeing.   
 
fn1001
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 6):
Knowing some revenue opportunistic airlines, we may see an extra charge for fully dimable windows

When you buy a condo with skyline view or a breathtaking landscape in front of the window, you pay a premium compared to the one with windows facing into a dark and dirty backyard. I guess that special airline you mean will charge for _not_ having shades or dimmable windows so you can enjoy the view.
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CM
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:49 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
NH have already stated the original report was incorrect and whatever issue they did have has been addressed by Boeing, so I am a bit stumped on how this is a PR issue for Boeing.

I wouldn't argue with NH saying it's solved. I don't have any direct knowledge of what changes are being studied or have already been made, so it may indeed be the case.
 
KDAYflyer
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:56 pm

Quoting sankaps (Thread starter):
Interesting, considering ANA is also boasting about a customer survey in which apparently the dimmable windows are highly praised. Says a lot about such surveys!

I think this says more about the company who apparently thinks they know more than the customers - ignoring the results of such customer surveys can negatively impact the company.
 
LimaNiner
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 6):
Knowing some revenue opportunistic airlines, we may see an extra charge for fully dimable windows

Maybe they'll install a knob, and you can go up to "9" for free... but then pay to go to "10" (or "11").  
 
spacecadet
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 4):
People will only be able to sleep if they put a white noise generator in there to drown out all 100 babies crying and allow smoking to drown out the smell of peoples farts

Never flown a Japanese airline, I'm guessing?

Not saying crying babies are never a problem on ANA - my worst crying baby flight ever was on ANA, actually - but generally this is frowned upon by Japanese society and the f/a's do make a real effort at fixing the situation. So it's far, far less of a problem than on any western airline I've flown - when they dim the windows, you are expected to be quiet and that goes for your kids too.

On my horrible crying baby flight, the f/a's were literally doing more parenting than the parents for that kid (the parents were western - surprise!). They even took the kid away for long stretches of time - I don't know where they put him, but they actually took him away from the parents for about 45 minutes several times during the flight.

Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 11):
I think this says more about the company who apparently thinks they know more than the customers - ignoring the results of such customer surveys can negatively impact the company.

Why would ANA insist on a change if they didn't feel it was necessary? Is the company just a bunch of busybodies? How would it help them to force Boeing to change something on their planes if customers don't care? I mean it wouldn't make sense for them to even ask - it's a lot of trouble for everyone involved where if it wasn't an issue, I'm sure ANA would be more than happy to do nothing at all and just keep flying and generating revenue.
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DocLightning
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:30 pm

I always wonder at people who make a big deal about the cabin being too bright, windows being open, etc. etc. etc.

There are these fancy, high-tech devices that people can wear that miraculously solve the problem. Remarkably, they usually cost less than US$5 each.



Maybe they haven't invented them yet in Japan?  

Anyway, given the size of the windows, wouldn't pull-down shades be a bit of a technical headache?
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CM
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:35 pm

Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 12):
but then pay to go to "10" (or "11").

Yes. 11 should always command a premium!  Thanks for that!

For any of you who missed this fine cultural reference from the early 1980s... enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuzpsO4ErOQ&hd=1
 
duncan16
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:36 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
NH have already stated the original report was incorrect and whatever issue they did have has been addressed by Boeing, so I am a bit stumped on how this is a PR issue for Boeing.

Please cite your sources for this, I have not been able to find anything. Thank you.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:40 pm

Quoting duncan16 (Reply 16):

Please cite your sources for this, I have not been able to find anything. Thank you.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 1):

From ANA Press Liaison, via FlightGlobal Reporter Firdaus Hashim:

Quote:
ANA clarified that they are NOT looking to install modifications on their 787 windows & issues they've raised with Boeing have been fixed.


 
KDAYflyer
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 13):
Why would ANA insist on a change if they didn't feel it was necessary? Is the company just a bunch of busybodies? How would it help them to force Boeing to change something on their planes if customers don't care? I mean it wouldn't make sense for them to even ask - it's a lot of trouble for everyone involved where if it wasn't an issue, I'm sure ANA would be more than happy to do nothing at all and just keep flying and generating revenue.

I agree but the way the survey says the pax love the tinting windows- then for the company to turn around and ask for the pull down shades sounds a bit odd, unless the customers asked for that. The survey results as stated make the company's statement versus the survey sound almost contradictory.....
 
duncan16
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 17):
From ANA Press Liaison, via FlightGlobal Reporter Firdaus Hashim:

Quote:
ANA clarified that they are NOT looking to install modifications on their 787 windows & issues they've raised with Boeing have been fixed.

Thank you for this, but it is very odd -- I have searched the FlightGlobal site and also Firdaus Hashim articles and blog posts, and do not see anything from which the quote was taken. Could you provide link to the actual post or article as that would provide further insight as to what is going on? Thank you.
 
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ADent
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 6):
Knowing some revenue opportunistic airlines, we may see an extra charge for fully dimable windows

They could charge for window cling film cut to the shape of the window. Kind of like they have for cars, but it would have to stick to whatever the inside/scratch pane is made of.

If not the airline, certainly retailers.
 
aeroblogger
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting duncan16 (Reply 19):
Thank you for this, but it is very odd -- I have searched the FlightGlobal site and also Firdaus Hashim articles and blog posts, and do not see anything from which the quote was taken. Could you provide link to the actual post or article as that would provide further insight as to what is going on? Thank you.

Twitter feed.
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reality
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:18 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 21):
Twitter feed.

I think he is asking for the LINK to the twitter feed.
 
aeroblogger
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:20 pm

Quoting reality (Reply 22):
I think he is asking for the LINK to the twitter feed.

Links:
https://twitter.com/FHavg/status/215363978749165568
https://twitter.com/SivaG/status/215364240243040256
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sweair
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:22 pm

I think this thread was more a try to stir a heated debate? Luckily it didnt catch on as well this time  
 
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EPA001
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:13 pm

Quoting duncan16 (Reply 4):
Here is a video of that window: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWUnmq9nFgk This would be better than adding blinds.

That is very impressive, and already widely used in multiple aircraft and helicopters.

Quoting CM (Reply 6):
The whole thing seems a bit embarrassing for Boeing, given their heavy marketing of this feature and Airbus' hammering on the "slow and ineffective" window shades on the 787.

Well, if some of the A380's have the I-shade as presented in the post from duncan16, they are imho a little bit entitled to do so.  .
 
tdscanuck
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:15 pm

Quoting CM (Reply 14):
Yes. 11 should always command a premium!  Thanks for that!

For any of you who missed this fine cultural reference from the early 1980s... enjoy!

And the more recent and awesome update:
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/spinal_tap_amps.png

Tom.
 
wjcandee
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:22 pm

Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 11):
but then pay to go to "10" (or "11")

"Our shades go to Eleven."

 

EDIT: Just crossed with Tom's post. Tom: Thanks for that. BRILLIANT!!

[Edited 2012-06-20 15:27:20]
 
Dazed767
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:30 pm

Quoting duncan16 (Reply 4):
I too have heard that at altitude in direct sun, the windows do not get dark enough. (From the videos I have seen, they are also extremely slow to dim.) Perhaps BA will switch to a different type of dimmable window that goes to blackout. Here is a video of that window: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWUnmq9nFgk This would be better than adding blinds.

Well saw 2 a.net photos on there, contacted the owners. I'd be surprised if they asked permission.
 
Max Q
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:28 am

I kind of suspected this would be a problem. The level of ambient light experienced in the daytime at altitude, or even more extreme, when the window is facing a low sun angle is very high and I wonder if this technology will prove up to the task.


Furthermore how will it hold up over twenty years or longer.


I hope they can fix this problem otherwise it will just be seen as a nice Gimmick that didn't work.


Say what you like about pull down shades, you cant beat the simplicity.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:32 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 28):
Furthermore how will it hold up over twenty years or longer.

I'd wager much better than shades. The technology is very simple and the materials exceedingly durable.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 28):
Say what you like about pull down shades, you cant beat the simplicity.

Yes, you can. A pull-down shade is a moving part which is prone to mechanical failure (and they fail all the damn time, mostly thanks to being beat on by kids and drunks). The electrochromic window has no moving parts, and the only failure-prone bit (the electrical contacts) is hidden where kids and drunks can't damage it.
 
Max Q
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:53 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 29):

Yes, you can. A pull-down shade is a moving part which is prone to mechanical failure (and they fail all the damn time, mostly thanks to being beat on by kids and drunks). The electrochromic window has no moving parts, and the only failure-prone bit (the electrical contacts) is hidden where kids and drunks can't damage it.

Time will tell..
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:25 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 30):
Time will tell..

Time did tell. The window people pummelled the snot out of the electrochromic windows and the pull-down shades. The electric windows won handily. It's all part of product development and acceptance testing.

Tom.
 
qf340500
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:14 am

well, time will tell still, in parctice daily use by kids, drunks, elderly people and the average Joe who plays with it like with a toy etc...

i thinks its not the least proven as the mechanical shade is, its a nice enough gimmick at the moment, i give you that
 
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DocLightning
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:29 am

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 32):
i thinks its not the least proven as the mechanical shade is,

But... it's proven. They've subjected it to far worse abuse for far longer than it will ever be in service. There may be minor issues, but they are proven.

I wonder if there was any communication between Boeing and ANA over this PR gaffe.
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XT6Wagon
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:35 am

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 32):

well, time will tell still, in parctice daily use by kids, drunks, elderly people and the average Joe who plays with it like with a toy etc...

dude, Its even tougher than than the stuff they make mall kiosk displays out of.

Lets put it this way, if it needs to be tougher, Its the SWITCH that will be the source of failure, not the window itself.

More to the point to hold to the pressure and temp cycles, airplane windows are awesomely tough bits of kit. The windshields for the pilots are pretty much exactly how you make armored glass for military vehicles, only with heaters to keep them from shattering the outer glass abrasion layer. Side windows not subject to the same loads, still need to be quite tough to take the pressure and temp changes multiple times a day for decades.
 
qf340500
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:20 am

"They've subjected it to far worse abuse for far longer than it will ever be in service." ----> how can that be, i guess the plane will be in service for 20+ years, so they have tested the technology (and the switch) since 20 years already?


XT6Wagon, sorry if was confusing, i was not referring to the windows itself but to the new technology of eletronically dimmable windows, sorry for not being clear  
 
CM
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:34 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 34):
dude, Its even tougher than than the stuff they make mall kiosk displays out of.

This is all true, but not applicable to the dimmable electro-chromic pane. The dimmable pane is a distinct part that sits between the dust pane and the structural pane.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 28):
Furthermore how will it hold up over twenty years or longer.
Quoting qf340500 (Reply 32):
i thinks its not the least proven as the mechanical shade is

The concerns about durability are unfounded.

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 35):
how can that be

The dimmable pane and switch have undergone extensive endurance, environmental, abuse and RET testing, including artificial aging using industry accepted and proven methods....

The parts are aged using thermal aging and UV exposure from Xenon arc lamps for months. Then, a steam autoclave for another couple months is used to ensure full moisture ingress to simulate extreme environmental exposure. Then, thermal shock is used to see if we can get the frozen moisture to destroy the parts. RCA abrasion testing and mechanical cycling of the system does the rest, testing for months and hundreds of thousands of cycles. Conventional RET testing addresses the first thing which breaks and continues testing until the next failure. In the case of the dimmable windows, they breezed through RET testing in the above conditions out to almost 1M cycles without failure.

Through this, the dimmable window has already demonstrated a life-cycle cost far lower than mechanical shades, which simply cannot compare. I know that's hard for people to swallow, but everyone here on these boards who is in a position to have seen the data is saying the same thing... The system is demonstrably more reliable and lower cost than a mechanical shade.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:43 am

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 35):
"They've subjected it to far worse abuse for far longer than it will ever be in service." ----> how can that be, i guess the plane will be in service for 20+ years, so they have tested the technology (and the switch) since 20 years already?

They have given it more than 20 years of use by accelerating the use.
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XT6Wagon
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:35 am

Quoting CM (Reply 36):
This is all true, but not applicable to the dimmable electro-chromic pane. The dimmable pane is a distinct part that sits between the dust pane and the structural pane.

well I was talking about the dimmable layer vs LCD too.

This really isn't a new technology. Its an old one. Problem is that while its been around a while, the money hasn't flowed to industrialize it. This has slowly been happening, and while its been used some for hyper expensive cars and the like, clearly the airliner market is a great place for it to make its next big leap where dropping millions on development and high intial install costs make sense since its nearly free lifetime cost and savings elsewhere pay for it. Clearly something Mercedes never saw the upside of when it developed the trick roof for the Maybach.
 
Max Q
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:40 am

Obviously it's not up to par or ANA would not be complaining about it.



Technology for technology's sake is always suspect !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
col
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:05 am

Have not been on a 787 as of yet, so I tend to reserve judgement until I actually try a product, but I would tend to think the following:

If it was that bad I am sure we would have heard more from both ANA and JAL, before now. Also, most of the airlines and their people have been involved from day one on the 787, if it was an issue, it would have been tabled and corrected already.
 
sweair
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:03 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 39):
Technology for technology's sake is always suspect !

Are you sure about that? It might just be a better tech than blinds that break down a lot. I have heard many that work with maintenance on aircraft swear over the mechanical blinds.
 
nomadd22
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:19 am

I hope it's better tested than those IFE displays I poke at for two minutes in vain attempts tp select a channel.
Anon
 
aerokiwi
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:37 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 39):
Obviously it's not up to par or ANA would not be complaining about it.

Except, they're not. Did you not read the very first reply to this thread?
 
sankaps
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:09 pm

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 43):
Except, they're not. Did you not read the very first reply to this thread?

The report was from a named ANA spokesman. The denial was in a Twitterfeed. Not so sure there is not some truth to the original story... no smoke without a fire, as they say.
 
wingman
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:21 pm

Is it not possible they love the windows but just wish they were darker? I love In and Out burgers but I often wish they were bigger.
 
sankaps
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:20 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 45):
Is it not possible they love the windows but just wish they were darker?

Absolutely possible, ergo the thread title "ANA wants the windows darker".  
 
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bikerthai
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:41 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 38):
Problem is that while its been around a while, the money hasn't flowed to industrialize it.

Is it anything like the auto electric dimmer on my rear view mirror? My car is a 1991 Lexus . . . auto dimmer still works even as my air condition have given up the ghost a long time ago (must have ran out of freon)  
Quoting Max Q (Reply 39):
Obviously it's not up to par or ANA would not be complaining about it.

It's like complaining about the color of the car . . . it's not the technology . . . it was how it was implemented.
Boeing has stated that they didn't want the windows to be completely dark so even at the darkest setting, people can still look out the window and "see something". I guess some people don't like that option. You just can't please everyone.

So I guess, the next iteration is to have a variable setting where the FA can set the lowest level to either completely black or partial black-out. Thus the airline has the option to decide (I wonder why this wasn't done in the first place? I would think if this is possible, the Engineers have already committed the change . . . and it may just take a couple of years to implement . . .

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
KDAYflyer
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RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:02 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 31):
Time did tell. The window people pummelled the snot out of the electrochromic windows and the pull-down shades. The electric windows won handily. It's all part of product development and acceptance testing.

Making them go darker will likely end up on the Boeing "to do" list....
 
babybus
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:07 am

RE: ANA Wants Boeing To Make 787 Windows Darker

Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:07 pm

I'm not surprised ANA want new shades. It must be like dark sunglasses those window shades. If the sun is streaming in on you while you're trying to sleep it's going to make it very difficult.

What was wrong with the normal pull down blind? It's worked well all these years without fail.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.

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