ktachiya
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ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:46 pm

I am glad that all of the passengers on this flight were safe.

The article states that at 1:20 pm, an ANA flight from Beijing was trying to land at NRT. Upon landing, the pilot held up the nose of the aircraft and the aircraft bounced twice.

According to the ministry of land infrastructure and transportation, the body of the B763 changed shape (looks like a crack to me).

All of the 193 people onboard were safe.

I thought the B763 was popular amongst airlines due to its low maintenance costs, but I guess not for this bird.......

http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/videone...s/fnn?a=20120620-00000845-fnn-soci

I hope everyone can view this video...

It seems like the aircraft encountered some type of windsheer before it touched down?
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
babybus
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:52 pm

That was a very odd landing. There must have been an electronics issue or something.

There will be a few people on that plane that won't be flying again I'm sure.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
na
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:01 pm

Quoting ktachiya (Thread starter):

What a landing. Thats a massive crack, even visible from afar in low-res video. If it would be a car I´d say next stop is the scrapheap. As ANA has begun retiring its older 767s (another one a few days ago) I wonder how old this one is. With lots of 787s arriving this plane wont be needed anymore and could be retired in place of another scheduled one.
 
727forever
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:10 pm

It would appear that the winds were quite gusty this day, which never happens in NRT (sarcasm). The reason that I say this is that the airplane is approaching slightly nose low. This only occurs on the 763 if you add speed to the approach speed as you would on a windy day. It would also appear that passing 100' or so agl the winds shifted as the airplane pitches to adjust to the loss of speed. The pilot stays with the approach but ends up touching down in a high sink condition, bounces, and subsequently comes down hard on the nose. The proper move would have been to go around and try it again, preferably on 34L as it doesn't have that giant hole on short final which makes the winds even worse.


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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:17 pm

WOW! Hopefully that was an older bird and not one of the brand new ones.

Planted on the mains, bounced, planted on the nose first, bounced, planted on mains again then slammed down the nose... Almost like the real life version of the that airbus video YouTube porpoising down the runway.
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DL_Mech
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:17 pm

Damage like this has been repaired before:


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Gerard Isaacson
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Photo © Joe Pries - ATR Team


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Photo © Claudio Sallaberry



[Edited 2012-06-20 06:44:10]
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
na
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:28 pm

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 5):
Damage like this has been repaired before:

Even worse cracks have been repaired like this maintenance mishap:
http://www.skyliner-aviation.de/photos/01dabyz.jpg

But if this ANA 767 will be repaired will come down to age. If its less than 10 years old it´ll likely fly again. But if its close to 20 years they wont do it as those aging planes are currently being wfu by ANA and hardly worth a penny.
 
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Aquila3
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:43 pm

Fore pure dialectic ( I really hope this will never happen again) what would have been the outcome with a CRFP 787?
No damage at all or, if limit passed complete destruction of the cabin?
Does the 787 still have longitudinal beams structure or does it rely only on its super rigid skin?
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andrewtang
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:51 pm

The aircraft is JA610A.
 
na
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:54 pm

Quoting andrewtang (Reply 8):
The aircraft is JA610A.

Thanks. That one is only 9 years old. I bet ANA wished it was an older one to make decisions easy!
 
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seabosdca
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:59 pm

This has happened on a number of occasions. 767s really don't like landing hard on the nose gear. Given the age of the aircraft I would expect it will be repaired.
 
je89_w
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:11 pm

Wow, those cameras at NRT sure catch a lot of incidents/accidents on that runway! JA610A arrived from PEK at 13:22 local, wonder what the wind conditions were like during that time.

Quoting babybus (Reply 1):
There must have been an electronics issue or something.

Please explain.
 
Daleaholic
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:23 pm

There was a Skyservice 767 which had a hard landing in PUJ years ago, they fixed it and it's flying daily for TCX now. Think the aircraft may actually have been on lease from TCX at the time...

Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
 
akelley728
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting ktachiya (Thread starter):
I thought the B763 was popular amongst airlines due to its low maintenance costs, but I guess not for this bird.......

Please explain this statement - Maintenance costs have nothing to do with a hard landing and the subsequent damage caused by said hard landing.
 
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longhauler
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:39 pm

It is pretty difficult to make Boeing's finest hit the ground hard, but the conditions all see to be similar. Gusty/wind-shear, combined with high runway temperatures.

The "Boeing Bubble" wont save you then.
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nighthawk
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:48 pm

Quoting Daleaholic (Reply 12):
There was a Skyservice 767 which had a hard landing in PUJ years ago, they fixed it and it's flying daily for TCX now. Think the aircraft may actually have been on lease from TCX at the time...

It was indeed on lease from TCX at the time, and made a hard landing, I think it was in the Caribbean. Because it was on lease, they had to fix it, which involved flying a team of Boeing engineers down to the Caribbean, building a hanger around the aircraft, then cutting the fuselage to remove the broken section.

The aircraft is now back in service with TCX, and I flew on the aircraft 3 years ago. I was sat right where the crack used to be.
 
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Stitch
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:53 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 7):
...what would have been the outcome with a CRFP 787? No damage at all or, if limit passed complete destruction of the cabin?

There is no way the 787 would have been certified if a landing like that would have sheared the fuselage apart.
 
CM
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:25 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 7):
Does the 787 still have longitudinal beams structure or does it rely only on its super rigid skin?

The 787 is still a semi-monocoque design, with stringers and frames providing stiffening against body bending inside the skin.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 7):
what would have been the outcome with a CRFP 787? No damage at all or, if limit passed complete destruction of the cabin?

Assuming you could get the 787 to perform the same bounce at landing (the flight controls are augmented to prevent it), the results of destructive static strength testing for body bending indicate the 787 will fair much better than any aluminum aircraft in this same scenario. The static test for body bending of the fuselage forward of the 787 wing was abandoned well past 100% ULF, after the body wouldn't break but the test fixture began to fail. Subsequently, large cuts were put in the skin and some frames were cut as well, in order weaken the structure and the test was resumed. The forward body still would not buckle, as you see in the ANA frame.

As you would expect from a first generation CFRP aircframe, testing has shown the 787 structure is quite conservatively designed.
 
4holer
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
There is no way the 787 would have been certified if a landing like that would have sheared the fuselage apart

Fair enough statement... But what would have happened if that would have been an MD-11?
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
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Siren
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting 4holer (Reply 18):
But what would have happened if that would have been an MD-11?

Low blow... we already saw that happened to an MD-11 under similar conditions at NRT...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedEx_Express_Flight_80
 
EY460
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:50 pm

 
kaitak
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:16 pm

Wow, that was some touchdown!

The British AAIB recently released a report on an similar incident involving a Thomson 767 at Bristol in 2010, which makes interesting reading; the circumstances and the damage are similar to the ANA aircraft:

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/...ay_2012/boeing_767_324__g_oobk.cfm
 
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zeke
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 1):
That was a very odd landing. There must have been an electronics issue or something.

It would be wind related, not the first, and will not be the last wind related incident.

The low level turbulence is impossible to see, and the reported wind measurements by the tower do not tell you about the column of air above the runway for the last 100 ft.

The only real question is if they exceeded the normal approach attitudes at all, which should have prompted a go-around. This can be very heard to tell in a very dynamic environment in the the flare.
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747srule
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:25 pm

Looked like Bouncing Betty to me!!
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lightsaber
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:27 pm

I hope everyone is ok (no soft tissue injuries). I hope they'll all also fly again.  
Quoting na (Reply 2):
Thats a massive crack, even visible from afar in low-res video. If it would be a car I´d say next stop is the scrapheap.

It will matter on the internal damage. As others have noted, the exterior damage has had like repaired before. Like with your car, the decision rests with the insurance company.

Quoting Siren (Reply 19):
Quoting 4holer (Reply 18):
But what would have happened if that would have been an MD-11?

Low blow... we already saw that happened to an MD-11 under similar conditions at NRT...

   Yea, that solves the scrap/repair question.

Quoting CM (Reply 17):
Assuming you could get the 787 to perform the same bounce at landing (the flight controls are augmented to prevent it), the results of destructive static strength testing for body bending indicate the 787 will fair much better than any aluminum aircraft in this same scenario.

   I suspect the 787 will eventually have a lower insurance bill. (I suspect today it is higher being a new airframe with unknown (but bracketable) damage costs.)

Quoting CM (Reply 17):
The static test for body bending of the fuselage forward of the 787 wing was abandoned well past 100% ULF, after the body wouldn't break but the test fixture began to fail.

Wimps. Grumman (with the F-14) showed one should continue until the airframe bounces off the ceiling.  
Quoting CM (Reply 17):
As you would expect from a first generation CFRP aircframe, testing has shown the 787 structure is quite conservatively designed.

   Which will help Boeing remove some weight.   


Lightsaber
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HAL
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:28 pm

As with the Thompson 767 mentioned a couple of posts ago, this looks very much like damage from too hard a landing on the nose gear. In my 767 sim training they stressed the importance of not slamming the nose gear down (or worse yet, landing nose-gear first), and 'flying' the nose to the ground after touchdown. Because of the weight of the aircraft, high forces on the nose gear can cause this kind of buckling in the fuselage. This is true for all large aircraft.

HAL
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135mech
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:44 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 22):
It would be wind related, not the first, and will not be the last wind related incident.

Wind (especially gusting) can be devastating to any aircraft and then you have wind-shear...that will ruin your day!

A lot of people old enough remember this: the L1011 that hit windshear in Dallas, it was before the technology was readily available to detect wind-shear and wreaked havoc on so many planes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db7-MvXkbjs

Quoting Siren (Reply 19):
Low blow... we already saw that happened to an MD-11 under similar conditions at NRT...

I really like the MD-11 (and loved the DC-10 family), but after reading up on it...it reminds me of the Ford Explorer...likes to flip over?! Sad that happened to them a few times. (No, I'm not ripping on them, just noticed in my readings).  
135Mech
 
tdscanuck
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:50 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 1):
That was a very odd landing. There must have been an electronics issue or something.

767 has conventional (cable+hydraulics) flight controls. Unless the autoland computers all completely and simultaneously lost their mind (in which case they're supposed to disconnect) an electronics issue shouldn't result in that kind of aircraft motion.

Quoting ktachiya (Thread starter):
(looks like a crack to me).

That's a buckle. It's on the compression side of the impact. There may well be cracks on the lower skin to match but they'd be much harder to see.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 7):

Fore pure dialectic ( I really hope this will never happen again) what would have been the outcome with a CRFP 787?
No damage at all or, if limit passed complete destruction of the cabin?

If the cabin was destroyed past limit load the design would be uncertifiable. Since the structure here yielded but did not outright fail, they were somewhere between limit and ultimate load. CFRP has a much higher yield strength, relative to ultimate strength, so the likely outcome on a 787 is no damage (if below the yield point) or delamination of the stringers and possibly skin (if above).

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 7):
Does the 787 still have longitudinal beams structure or does it rely only on its super rigid skin?

Like CM said...conventional structural design. Anyone familiar with aluminum airliners will immediately recognize the structure on a 787; it's was just a material change, not a structural philosophy change.

Tom.
 
mfullmer
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:04 pm

This aircraft was delivered in April, 2003 so it's too young to be written off.
 
kaitak
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting mfullmer (Reply 28):
This aircraft was delivered in April, 2003 so it's too young to be written off.

I know it's young, but I wouldn't be too quick to make that assumption; the age and value of the aircraft will certainly feature in the assessment of the aircraft and the possibility of repairing it, but the aircraft has been badly damaged.

Just looking at the Youtube video again, it's interesting to watch how the nosegear landings before the right MLG; that gives you some indication of the force that's being put on the nosegear and you can see how the crack in the fuselage exacerbates as the aircraft goes through the various impacts and rolls out. It will be very interesting to see the G-forces experienced during the various impacts.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:19 pm

That's a pretty scary video. Just glad that they landed without a big crash.
 
KDAYflyer
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:54 pm

Wow. I can just imagine the thoughts of the pax. I have no doubt several of them now have "a drinking problem" (aka Airplane).
 
RobertS975
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:05 pm

Reminds me of the FEDEX MD11 crash at NRT.
 
B738FlyUIA
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:19 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 30):
Just glad that they landed without a big crash.

Yes, indeed it could have worse.... Glad that nothing more happened and the airframe was stable enough for that landing.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 29):
Quoting mfullmer (Reply 28):
This aircraft was delivered in April, 2003 so it's too young to be written off.

I know it's young, but I wouldn't be too quick to make that assumption; the age and value of the aircraft will certainly feature in the assessment of the aircraft and the possibility of repairing it, but the aircraft has been badly damaged.

What you think after a examination of the aircraft, it will be able to repair? Have there been other similar landings to some aircraft and what has been decided? Really I do hope they will be able to get it fixed and a 2003 767 has some good long years ahead!!!
 
spacecadet
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:27 pm

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 32):
Reminds me of the FEDEX MD11 crash at NRT.

NRT is quite a windy airport. I've flown into it probably two dozen times and have never experienced a smooth landing.
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Tradewinds
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:29 pm

Quoting Siren (Reply 19):
Low blow... we already saw that happened to an MD-11 under similar conditions at NRT...
Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 32):
Reminds me of the FEDEX MD11 crash at NRT.

First thing I thought of when I saw the video. The bounce is pretty much identical (less violent, of course, thankfully). That could have been much worse than a simple cracked airframe!
Tradewinds
 
kaitak
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 34):
NRT is quite a windy airport. I've flown into it probably two dozen times and have never experienced a smooth landing

Indeed; here's a report from another pilot, who landed shortly before the NH flight:

"Landed at NRT around the same time. Probably just before the aircraft concerned.
Winds observed at 1000 ft agl were 240/58-72 kts, dropping down to 230/48 kts steady at 500 ft. And then there was a +/- 15 kts WS reported. On my observation it was more like +/- 20 kts windshear!
And the turbulence was huge. Moderate to moderate/severe turbulence REPORTED by 4 airplane before me from 500 ft to touchdown. I observed Moderate/Severe all the way down from 500 ft to touchdown.
And BTW the winds reported on ground were 220 to 250 at 28 gusting 44 kts".

Interesting experience, no doubt!
 
sweair
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:46 pm

A few soiled seats I can imagine? That much be awful to experience as a passenger? I once experienced a long drop in a storm cloud going into Cairns, my coffee cup emptied on the ceiling, people were a bit shaken but no one screamed, it was over in a few seconds. It just lost lift and fell..very strange feeling. Lucky to be buckled up in such events.
 
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ADent
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:10 pm

I don't see any cracks in the videos links posted by EY460 - just wrinkling. Am I missing something?
 
Viscount724
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:23 pm

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 5):
Damage like this has been repaired before:

Also this Air Algérie 738 damaged in a heavy landing at Sétif, Algeria (QSF) in 2008.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20080314-0


http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/9251/dsc05614ry5.jpg
 
quiet1
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:02 pm

I wonder what it sounded like in the cabin near where it buckled.
 
softrally
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:11 pm

A similar thing happened to an OZ 767 on landing in CJU in 1992. The aircraft was just over a year old! It was repaired and then returned to service
. http://cfs2.tistory.com/upload_contr...N0b3J5LmNvbTovYXR0YWNoLzAvMTYuanBn
The photo is funky, as OZ painted the aircraft into KE colours. I'm not exactly sure about that; There isn't much information about this incident.
The aircraft (24798/331) later operated for ZG and now is stored.
Flown on: 738, 744, 762/763, 772, 77W, 788, A306, A318/319/320/321, A332/333, E145, E190, CRJ700
 
Grude1087
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:25 pm

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 40):

I wonder what it sounded like in the cabin near where it buckled.

I can imagine there might have been quite a bit of screaming during the last 10 seconds of the flight, based on how that thing was rocking around!!
 
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seabosdca
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:27 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 29):
I know it's young, but I wouldn't be too quick to make that assumption; the age and value of the aircraft will certainly feature in the assessment of the aircraft and the possibility of repairing it, but the aircraft has been badly damaged.

Several 767s have had this happen before. To my knowledge, all of them have been repaired.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 29):
Just looking at the Youtube video again, it's interesting to watch how the nosegear landings before the right MLG;

...and that's exactly what precipitated this sort of damage in previous hard landings with 767s.
 
soon7x7
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 38):
I don't see any cracks in the videos links posted by EY460 - just wrinkling. Am I missing something?

The same type damage, "compression fracture", much like a broken collarbone, occurred to CN-RNT, Royal air Maroc. Once the crown buckled then relaxed, the buckled skin pulled and the skin developed voids. The nose gear bay bulkheads were probably torqued out as well and would need structural repairs as the RAM 767 did. Boeing mechanics performed an incredible repair. I still see the aircraft flying into JFK.

If the same damage was inflicted on a 787, it would be carted off to the scrap yard. CFRP's are not indestructible.
 
CM
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:38 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 44):
If the same damage was inflicted on a 787

You can't inflict the same damage on a CFRP fuselage. The failure mechanism of the material is very different. See Tom's comment...

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 27):
CFRP has a much higher yield strength, relative to ultimate strength, so the likely outcome on a 787 is no damage (if below the yield point) or delamination of the stringers and possibly skin (if above).
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 44):
If the same damage was inflicted on a 787 it would be carted off to the scrap yard.

You didn't state why you believe this, but you are mistaken. Major damages (larger than what you are seeing in this ANA 767) have already been deliberately inflicted on the 787 static frame by Boeing (post static ULF test) and the follow-on repair methods have already been developed and demonstrated.
 
DL_Mech
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:43 am

Quoting softrally (Reply 41):
A similar thing happened to an OZ 767 on landing in CJU in 1992. The aircraft was just over a year old! It was repaired and then returned to service
. http://cfs2.tistory.com/upload_contr...N0b3J5LmNvbTovYXR0YWNoLzAvMTYuanBn
The photo is funky, as OZ painted the aircraft into KE colours. I'm not exactly sure about that; There isn't much information about this incident.

That photo is from an article in Boeings' "Airliner" magazine. I imagine that Boeing conceals the identity of customers of aircraft involved in accidents.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
aviateur
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RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:56 am

Looks like one of my landings!


I believe the LAB incident was caused by a malfunction during a practice autoland. Anybody know about this?


PS
Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
 
neutronstar73
Posts: 658
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:57 pm

RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:32 am

Quoting ktachiya (Thread starter):
thought the B763 was popular amongst airlines due to its low maintenance costs, but I guess not for this bird.......


I don't think you thought this through, or you are taking a swipe at the 767 for something happening that has nothing to do with its life-cycle costs.
 
kaitak
Posts: 8933
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: ANA's B767-300 Landing With The Body Cracking

Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:50 am

Apparently the nosegear was badly twisted (on the ANA 767); the impact was in excess of 5G.

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