cedarjet
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A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:06 am

There have been rare occasions when a different type has operated in place of an A380 - my friend was booked transpacific on Qantas and got a 747-400 instead of an A380, and Emirates have deployed 777-300ER when an A380 has gone tech or other operational reason.

But has an A380 ever been operated as a sub, in place of a different scheduled type?

[Edited 2012-06-20 18:07:03]
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
cheeken
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:28 am

I believe that flight substitutions will always be a downguage to save on trip cost in the case of an underbooking, this increases profitibality (or reduces loss) for the airline! The one time I know of an A380 has being used as a sub was the EK incident that happened not too long ago, but it was more of an on-they-way pickup of passengers...
 
mogandoCI
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:31 am

i can't imagine any airline having A380 spares idling on its *** to sub around at a moment's notice, even for the 744.

as the latest (and priciest) plane, the airlines are probably running the A380 to max utilization in order to recoup all that capital outlay - under the regular schedule
 
LH422
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:54 am

Quoting cedarjet (Thread starter):
But has an A380 ever been operated as a sub, in place of a different scheduled type?

This was the case when AF and LH (and possibly others?) halted put other planes on their NRT flights and used the A380s for other scheduled flights to the States, e.g., LH404/405.
 
LH422
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:59 am

Also, at the moment, LH has a spare A380 until they start flights to IAH on August 1. I wonder if we'll see any more substitutions, perhaps to MIA, JFK or IAD?
 
cedarjet
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:12 am

Quoting cheeken (Reply 1):
I believe that flight substitutions will always be a downguage to save on trip cost in the case of an underbooking, this increases profitability (or reduces loss) for the airline!

Maybe. My two recent subs were both upguages, my Cathay A330 SYD-HKG turned into a 747 a few years back, and in October my Thai A340-500 BKK-HND (with a.netter Eirik) turned into a 747 as well.

Would be amazing to expect a 777-300ER or a 747-400 and get to the gate and - ta da! Whalejet!

(My best sub was an Air Inter A320 that turned into my only Caravelle flight; which is nothing compared to my friend who was flying Air France AMS-CDG and his A310 turned into a Concorde positioning back to Paris after a supersonic North Sea enthusiasts charter AMS-AMS. So you see, miracles can happen!)
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
qf002
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:22 am

QF108 is usually a 744 which is operated by an A380 when QF is sending a plane to VCV. QF12 (the usual A380 flight) is cancelled.

But these flights are scheduled months out so it's not really a sub per se. I think it's the closest you'll get though.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:13 pm

Plane substitutions are always going to be on a case-by-case basis. The airline is seeking to minimize costs-and flight disruptions involve substantial costs. The people making the decisions have to choose the solution to any given situation that will cause the least disruption (and angry customers.) Simple logic would indicate that with the extremely low number of A380's in service and the large number of passengers, that it would be a last resort move to substitute one for a smaller plane. But undoubtedly the situation can arise where it would be the best move.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
SEA
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:23 pm

LH have subbed the A388 for A346 and 744s at least a couple of times. Like SEPilot said above though, it really varies case by case and what's available and on hand at the time. In 2005 I ended up on a 777 subbed for an A320 SEA-DEN due to to an earlier cancelled flight. Just because it happened once though doesn't necessarily mean they'd do that again, it just meant they happened to have a 777 that was able to be repositioned quickly.
 
goosebayguy
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:59 pm

Didn't AF sub their A320's CDG-LHR with an A380 when they first received them?
 
WarpSpeed
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:10 pm

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 9):
Didn't AF sub their A320's CDG-LHR with an A380 when they first received them?

The A380's were deployed as such, but I believe it was scheduled service (i.e. you could book the A380 flight) rather than the Whalejet substituting for the original equipment.
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slcguy
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:38 pm

A380 might be practical to sub for aircraft such as B744, B773 and A346 assuming the carrier had a spare available. Doubt it would be worth it for a smaller WB or NB unless the flight was absolutely needed for special reasons, again assuming one was available.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:46 pm

Quoting SLCGuy (Reply 11):
Doubt it would be worth it for a smaller WB or NB unless the flight was absolutely needed for special reasons, again assuming one was available.

It would probably only happen with a combination of factors, one of them involving the need to reposition the A380. And since most airports are unable to accommodate the A380, I agree that it is extremely unlikely.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
canyonblue17
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:16 pm

I remember last year here in PBI CO/UA replaced a 752 with a 764 because it was only aircraft they had available. According to a friend of mine at CO/UA, they actually came close to replacing the 752 with a 777. So they don't always downgrade and it seems like it is more a matter of what is available.
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Asiaflyer
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:31 pm

Quoting cheeken (Reply 1):
I believe that flight substitutions will always be a downguage to save on trip cost in the case of an underbooking, this increases profitibality (or reduces loss) for the airline!

I flew ZRH-FCO more than 10 years ago. The expected A320 never showed up due to technical reasons, so instead Swissair pulled in an A330 to the gate. Nice upguage! That was my first A330 flight btw.
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iberiadc852
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:34 pm

Substituting may not only come by having spare planes but also by switching planes on demand.

If a route with a 744 is overloaded and another by a 380 is underloades, why not changing?
variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
 
planesailing
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:50 pm

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 15):
Substituting may not only come by having spare planes but also by switching planes on demand.

If a route with a 744 is overloaded and another by a 380 is underloades, why not changing?

Easy in theory, difficult in practice. The problem is, crew for the 747 are already going to be down route, you are going to have to dead head crew to fly the return and then you will have to do the same again when the normal aircraft type for the route is heading down route.

I had a horrendous oversell situation once (20) and whilst it would have been logical to upscale the aircraft for that day and the two other days around that date, due to oversells, in practice it would have been more hassle that it is worth with all the differences required.

You will quite often see a short haul aircraft subbed for a long haul due to the fact if the crew are due to do the outbound and inbound sectors, it will not affect crew positioning.
 
Lofty
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:08 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 6):
My best sub was an Air Inter A320 that turned into my only Caravelle flight; which is nothing compared to my friend who was flying Air France AMS-CDG and his A310 turned into a Concorde positioning back to Paris after a supersonic North Sea enthusiasts charter AMS-AMS. So you see, miracles can happen!)

BA used to use Concorde on LHR - MAN when operating a charter from MAN. I used to love asking passengers at the gate with hand baggage only if they would go on a flight that left 10mins later. Many would say no and I guess would kick themselves when they looked over at Gate 7 to see Concorde.
 
roseflyer
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:59 pm

Swaps on long haul flights are rare. Usually the flights are upgauged or downgauged with notice and not swapped or subbed at the last minute. Tail swaps between airplanes in the same family are much more common. A variety of maintenance or operational reasons can cause this. A mechanical problem can cause a differently configured airplane of the same family to operate a route.

I could see an A380 being operated on a short flight as a sub due to operational reasons. A few flights cancelling due to weather or mechanical problems can cause quite a backlog.

Quoting cheeken (Reply 1):


I believe that flight substitutions will always be a downguage to save on trip cost in the case of an underbooking, this increases profitibality (or reduces loss) for the airline! The one time I know of an A380 has being used as a sub was the EK incident that happened not too long ago, but it was more of an on-they-way pickup of passengers...

Downgauging for underbooking is certainly not the only reason for a sub. Outside of swapping between an A320/A319/A321 or various 737s, I don’t see much swapping happening because of loads. It disrupts the schedule and impacts more than just one flight. Few airlines have the flexibility to do that outside of out and back narrowbody routes since it requires a large spare airplane inventory which is costly. Furthermore it is even more rare on long haul flights since the crew will not be in place to operate the flight back. Swapping between derivatives of the same airplane is a lot easier than going to a different model with different pilots.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Viscount724
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:10 pm

Quoting cheeken (Reply 1):
I believe that flight substitutions will always be a downguage to save on trip cost in the case of an underbooking, this increases profitibality (or reduces loss) for the airline

There are many upgauges, especially when weather or other issues result in cancelled flights and a big backlog of passengers. For example, I've seen AC use 763s on YYZ-LGA in such situations.

I have been on at least 2 LX A330s and one A340 on 40-minute GVA-ZRH flights, replacing the usual A320 or A321, during peak holiday periods when they need the extra capacity and the aircraft is otherwise parked at ZRH and can easily operate a ZRH-GVA-ZRH rotation.
 
qf002
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RE: A380 As A Sub For Another Type?

Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:16 am

Quoting Lofty (Reply 17):

Misquote... I'm afraid that my best sub is probably nothing more than a 744 for a 743 on a domestic QF leg...

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