CapEd388
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Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:20 am

It has been announced via facebook that Avianca-TACA and Copa Airlines have officially joined Star. There is no press release yet, but there is an announcement on their home page.

Facebook:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...322.134812383246816&type=1&theater

Star Homepage:

http://www.staralliance.com/en/
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jfk777
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:52 am

Is this a good match or the last best option for Star in Latin America ? Avianca and Star just don't blend well together being weak at AV's two most important destinations, Miami & Madrid . Florida is 70% of the Colombian market in the USA. AV also flies to JFK 2 or 3 times daily, no help here from Star. Previously AV did fly to Newark in the 1990's but were discontinued.
 
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copa330200
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:01 pm

CM web page today's say: a star alliance member  
On the run !!!
 
MEA-707
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:05 pm

I always felt Avianca would have been better off with Skyteam, it would have created a balanced competition between the three alliances and strong enough networks that it makes sense.
With COPA and TACA both in Star I fear they will abuse their monopoly and the already high prices of the regional central American/Caribbean/Latin American flights will go up further.
Skyteam is now quite weak in the area with only Aeromexico (who only have few flights south) and Aerolineas Argentinas, Delta/AF/KL and Avianca/Ocean/VIP would all benefit from connectivity at both sides.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
sq452
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:11 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
AV also flies to JFK 2 or 3 times daily, no help here from Star. Previously AV did fly to Newark in the 1990's but were discontinued.

Wouldn't surprise me if they allocate a flight over to EWR from JFK; quite common when airlines join alliances to move airports for the same city. Although BR opted for JFK from EWR and its no secret which alliance they are headed to; wouldn't surprise me if they come back.
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:27 pm

Well congratulations to them! This was a huge effort put by LH and UA as we all know AV was very close with Skyteam.

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 4):
Wouldn't surprise me if they allocate a flight over to EWR from JFK; quite common when airlines join alliances to move airports for the same city.

I don't know if that would be a good idea. EWR is very congested and they frankly are doing great with no feed at JFK, as the flights are purely O/D from New York. Also, even though the colombian community is large in Jersey, the one in Queens and the areas closer to JFK is also very big and more representative.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 3):
I always felt Avianca would have been better off with Skyteam, it would have created a balanced competition between the three alliances and strong enough networks that it makes sense.

Probably yes, but Skyteam never moved one finger for them untill they found out LH and UA were pushing hard for Bogotá to join star. LH even relaunched BOG on A340-600 without the guarantee that AVTA was going to decide to join. Meanwhile, Sky was sluggish and silent and they had to settle with the crap airline that AR is, not to mention their terribly located hub at EZE which pretty much only offers good connections to Chile and Uruguay.

Meanwhile, LH's BOg flights are doing great and going to daily in October.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
Is this a good match or the last best option for Star in Latin America ?

This is a good match. Star will have an unbelievable network in the continent, with 5 new hubs coming online to serve the network. It is also an almost given that Avianca Brasil is on their plans.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
Avianca and Star just don't blend well together being weak at AV's two most important destinations, Miami & Madrid .

Miami feed has never been an issue for AV, because it's a majorly O/D destination and most of it is done via interlines anyways. Skyteam has a token presence in MIA too, so if you wanted to follow the logic thay should join oneworld, but that's where is comes in: three of their biggest competitors are there, AA, LA and IB.

MAD is where it's probably going to be a bit more difficult, but they already signed a deal with the Renfe network. A codeshare with UX in the future could be seen, they just started operating a codeshare with Sky member Aeroméxico.
 
UALFAson
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:01 pm

I think the lack of EWR service is not a big deal. Leave the JFK flights for O&D and route US East Coast and "rust belt" connections through IAD instead, which is currently already served by Avianca, TACA, and Copa.
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EddieDude
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 5):
as we all know AV was very close with Skyteam.

Well, I am not really sure how "close" they were. AV and DL had a codeshare/mileage agreement (or was it only mileage?) and I think that was pretty much it. Not sure if AF and AV had anything beyond an interline agreement.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 5):
they frankly are doing great with no feed at JFK, as the flights are purely O/D from New York.

I agree it is mostly O&D traffic to and from JFK but they could now also get feed at JFK from carriers such as NH, OZ, OS, SN, MS, LO, LH, LX and TK.
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mogandoCI
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 3):
With COPA and TACA both in Star I fear they will abuse their monopoly and the already high prices of the regional central American/Caribbean/Latin American flights will go up further.

As opposed to LAN-TAM which would keep LIM-SCL-GRU-GIG prices in check themselves ? The largest south american city (GRU) to the most popular destination in N.A. from S.A. (MIA) would be entirely in the hands of oneworld - that's a far bigger concern than some tourist wanting to visit San Salvador or Cartagena
 
SCL767
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:42 pm

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 3):
With COPA and TACA both in Star I fear they will abuse their monopoly and the already high prices of the regional central American/Caribbean/Latin American flights will go up further.

A good thing about the monopoly that AV-TA and CM-P5 will have in Central America and on many routes via BOG is that customers will look for an alternative carrier to increase competition on these routes...

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 8):
As opposed to LAN-TAM which would keep LIM-SCL-GRU-GIG prices in check themselves ?

FYI, TA and H2 code-share on the SCL-LIM route. Chile has Open Skies with Brasil and Peru. Also, familiarize yourself with the mitigation measures that the competition authorities in both Chile and Brasil have imposed on LATAM before making statements that are completely false!
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:15 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 7):
Well, I am not really sure how "close" they were. AV and DL had a codeshare/mileage agreement (or was it only mileage?) and I think that was pretty much it.
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 7):
Not sure if AF and AV had anything beyond an interline agreement.

AV and DL had a very broad codeshare and FF agreement, as well as technical suport in some areas. AF and AV had an FF agreement as well. AV was in talks with UX at some point before signing with IB and AM was in talks with AV ever since MX's problems started to become very real.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 7):

I agree it is mostly O&D traffic to and from JFK but they could now also get feed at JFK from carriers such as NH, OZ, OS, SN, MS, LO, LH, LX and TK.

Indeed. Specially Europe and Asia pax, there are already a lot of interline tickets being sold to bth places via JFK.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 9):
A good thing about the monopoly that AV-TA and CM-P5 will have in Central America and on many routes via BOG is that customers will look for an alternative carrier to increase competition on these routes...

For what alternative carrier? Out of BOG they don't have a monopoly on almost any international route of a certain size. And I would love LA and AA with their fair pricing and super low NK style fares come and swoosh away the passengers of two perfectly good and efficient operations which also provide good service, much better than AA's and certainly better than LA's on shorthaul flights. That is one far fetched argument right there.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 9):
FYI, TA and H2 code-share on the SCL-LIM route. Chile has Open Skies with Brasil and Peru. Also, familiarize yourself with the mitigation measures that the competition authorities in both Chile and Brasil have imposed on LATAM before making statements that are completely false!

Please. The GRU-SCL route will be de facto dominated by LATAM as well as many MIA-South America sectors will be dominated by oneworld (MIA-GYE/UIO, MIA-SCL, MIA-GIG, MIA-CNF....), whilst on the "monopolistic" central american arena, Star, Sky and Oneworld will be competing on every MIA route. LATAM will also be a big force to take into account, let's not come here and try to make AVTA and CM look like the bad guy when the union of LA and JJ is also a product of consolidation, which has the same market consequences no matter which parties are involved.

We also have to see how the latin american market will evolve once the now incipient low cost latinas start gaining momentum (the only places where this has happened are Mexico and Brazil, and the only other country with a low cost airline is Colombia). So if any of the larger conglomerates starts getting abusive, people will get fed up and fly low-cost, believe me. Ask the europeans.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:24 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 9):
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 8):
As opposed to LAN-TAM which would keep LIM-SCL-GRU-GIG prices in check themselves ?

FYI, TA and H2 code-share on the SCL-LIM route. Chile has Open Skies with Brasil and Peru. Also, familiarize yourself with the mitigation measures that the competition authorities in both Chile and Brasil have imposed on LATAM before making statements that are completely false!


That's as useful as saying the bmibaby was giving BA a run for their money, and I'm sure Avianca-Brasil is totally eating TAM's lunch.

"Being" open skies and actually having sufficient critical mass to overcome the barriers of entry against a dominant incumbent are 2 totally different things. Anyone who thinks LAN-TAM would not entirely rule South America with an iron fist is delusional.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:24 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 9):
A good thing about the monopoly that AV-TA and CM-P5 will have in Central America

LA doesn't even serve Central America  
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
SCL767
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 10):
as well as many MIA-South America sectors will be dominated by oneworld (MIA-GYE/UIO, MIA-SCL, MIA-GIG, MIA-CNF....),

Open Skies are now being implemented between the U.S. and Brasil. Doesn't AV and G3 have plans to launch routes between Brasil and the U.S.? It's unfortunate that 2K could not compete with LAN and AA on the routes between Ecuador and the U.S. But UA still operates into Ecuador, as well as DL.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 10):
For what alternative carrier? Out of BOG they don't have a monopoly on almost any international route of a certain size. And I would love LA and AA with their fair pricing and super low NK style fares come and swoosh away the passengers of two perfectly good and efficient operations which also provide good service, much better than AA's and certainly better than LA's on shorthaul flights. That is one far fetched argument right there.

Really? Look at certain international routes, i.e. BOG-PTY, BOG-GYE, BOG-UIO, BOG-SJO, MDE-PTY etc. But it's in both carriers interests to keep fares extremely high on these routes...

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 10):
Please. The GRU-SCL route will be de facto dominated by LATAM

LATAM will release 4 slot-pairs at GRU for new entrants and this route is subject to the regulation of fares and capacity by the TDLC.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 10):
LATAM will also be a big force to take into account, let's not come here and try to make AVTA and CM look like the bad guy when the union of LA and JJ is also a product of consolidation, which has the same market consequences no matter which parties are involved.

And look how many U.S., European, Middle Eastern, plus Latin American carriers operate into LATAM's hubs, especially GRU and GIG. Plus more carriers will add more flights into these hubs.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
LA doesn't even serve Central America

LAN will use BOG as a platform to launch flights into Central America.

[Edited 2012-06-21 10:34:11]
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:36 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 13):
LATAM will release 4 slot-pairs at GRU for new entrants and this route is subject to the regulation of fares and capacity by the TDLC.

Oh! *Well* Low fares are here again!  
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 13):
Look at certain international routes, i.e. BOG-PTY, BOG-GYE, BOG-UIO, BOG-SJO, MDE-PTY etc. But it's in both carriers interests to keep fares extremely high on these routes...

JJ/LA are doing the exact same thing as TA/AV for the exact same reasons. End of discussion.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
EddieDude
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:28 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 10):
AV and DL had a very broad codeshare and FF agreement, as well as technical suport in some areas. AF and AV had an FF agreement as well. AV was in talks with UX at some point before signing with IB and AM was in talks with AV ever since MX's problems started to become very real.

Thanks for the info!

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 13):
Really? Look at certain international routes, i.e. BOG-PTY, BOG-GYE, BOG-UIO, BOG-SJO, MDE-PTY etc. But it's in both carriers interests to keep fares extremely high on these routes...

Exactly. So then what is this "alternative carrier" and this "good thing" you are talking about? There is nothing good about the duopoly in these routes as you suggested in reply 9. Let me paste your reply here for convenience:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 9):
A good thing about the monopoly that AV-TA and CM-P5 will have in Central America and on many routes via BOG is that customers will look for an alternative carrier to increase competition

As others have pointed, there is no alternative carrier.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 13):
LATAM will release 4 slot-pairs at GRU for new entrants and this route is subject to the regulation of fares and capacity by the TDLC.

I will borrow a sentence from mogandoCI's eloquent post, "... having sufficient critical mass to overcome the barriers of entry against a dominant incumbent..." to address this comment.

I am not sure who would get these slots, but it is likely that whoever does will face many obstacles such as lack of knowledge of the market, lack of a frequent customer base, perhaps the lack of a known or attractive frequent flyer program and, finally, being a small fish trying to compete against a whale. No matter how many remedies the antitrust authorities prescribe, LA-JJ will always be able to find a way to leverage their weight against the airline that ends up picking those GRU-SCL or GRU-XXX routes, if such airline is a start-up or a small airline.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 13):
LAN will use BOG as a platform to launch flights into Central America.

Well, that is something that may happen in the future, but at the moment, as MaverickM11, LA and affiliates do not serve the Colombia-Central America market.
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tx2fl
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:29 pm

It's a great addition to have CM, connecting through PTY is fast and easy and with the expansion of the Panama Canal, expansion of trade and commerce there, it's probably the best addition they could have made, not taking away anything from AV or TA.
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:39 pm

This announcement also removes all doubt about what alliance LATAM will be joining.

One of the conditions of the LAN-TAM deal was that the merged carrier could not be in the same alliance as Avianca-Taca.

Delta has purchased equity in Gol, and Gol and LATAM would never be allowed to be in the same alliance.

With Avianca Taca in Star, and Gol headed for SkyTeam, this means LATAM will be joining OneWorld.
Seaholm Maples are #1!
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:03 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):

JJ/LA are doing the exact same thing as TA/AV for the exact same reasons. End of discussion.

Exactly my point. I don't know why suddenly AVTA are the bad guys and will go to hell for consolidating while LATAM is the savior of the latin american aviation industry. This guys is really something.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 15):

As others have pointed, there is no alternative carrier.

He's referring implicitly to LAN who will come and save the customers from the horrible AVTA by using their mediocre short haul product that is apparently mindblowingly revolutionary because they combine cargo and newer aircraft (clearly as the others fly 727s), just to offer the exact same fares as the competition.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 13):
Really? Look at certain international routes, i.e. BOG-PTY, BOG-GYE, BOG-UIO, BOG-SJO, MDE-PTY etc. But it's in both carriers interests to keep fares extremely high on these routes...

Apart from Colombia-Panamá, which will be receiving competition from low cost carriers in the near term, and in which LA would not offer real low fares as I said before, no other route of importance lacks competition. BOG-UIO will get TAME starting tomorrow as well as both UIO and GYE are soon to get NK service. None of the other big routes from Colombia is without competition, nor is the sizeable colombian domestic market.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 13):
Open Skies are now being implemented between the U.S. and Brasil. Doesn't AV and G3 have plans to launch routes between Brasil and the U.S.?

Of course they do, that's why they have a plethora of A350s and 787s on order. But the fact is that a route like GRU-MIA will be dominated by oneworld and it will be very hard for any other airline to make it work, thus oneworld will be able to charge the passengers whatever the hell they want as the will de facto have a monopoly. Sometimes things just written on paper don't materialize. The US and the EU have open skies, and look at the vast number of competitors on say, CDG-ATL.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 13):
It's unfortunate that 2K could not compete with LAN and AA on the routes between Ecuador and the U.S. But UA still operates into Ecuador, as well as DL.

It's unfortunate that 2K couldn't compete? Please, you loved it. All of the ecuadorean airline's strategies had to be reevaluated after the fuel subsidy was taken away (remember how LA Ecuador fired a lot of staff and reduced the domestic schedule?), and having a sole 763 at 2K just for one daily flight to JFK was not profitable, not for any airline could it have been profitable, thus they decided to do things through BOG and Central America, and now they're making a lot of money.

UA and DL fly from ATL and EWR to Ecuador, providing no competition to LAN and AA at MIA, the utterly most important market to latin america. The fact is, oneworld dominates the Ecuador-US non stop market.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 13):
LAN will use BOG as a platform to launch flights into Central America.

But hasn't done so yet, as LAN Colombia is not proving as profitable as they wished, and the other colombian airlines not as weak as they thought.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 13):
LATAM will release 4 slot-pairs at GRU for new entrants and this route is subject to the regulation of fares and capacity by the TDLC.

That will be taken by whom? G3, the worst international strategist of the major latins? H2, who don't have the resources to start a price war against LATAM? Maybe Avianca Brasil, who are still a small company with limited international experience? Please, it's like the MIA-LHR slot that BA gave to DL, just a ruse to say you're being fair.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 13):
And look how many U.S., European, Middle Eastern, plus Latin American carriers operate into LATAM's hubs, especially GRU and GIG. Plus more carriers will add more flights into these hubs.

Alright, we get it, LATAM is much bigger and has more hubs and larger partners at oneworld (oh wait that last part is not true) now stop hijacking the thread with your negative, poorly argumented posts!


Now, if we could get into a normal discussion rather than the usual bickering with the usual suspect over and over again,

I see a lot of opportunities for * members in the PTY, BOG and LIM hubs. Colombia is set to become south america's 3rd economy by the end of the decade, it has 46 million people and a burgeoning economy. This year, the middle class started growing considerably for the first time in many years, and poverty srhunk for the first time since 2003. Bogotá will have a gleaming new airport by mid 2014, and is a bustling city with 8 million souls, the financial center of the north of the continent, and gateway to the huge colombian domestic market. Perú is a prosperous economy and Lima is a perfect connecting spot for the southern cone countries, ans well as having one of the nicest airports in the region. And PTY, well, it's PTY, the most formidable connection point, that overshadows nearby cities like Bogotá, Caracas, all with larger populations than Panama itself, in terms of destinations.

There's also the buyout of TAP, a priority for the alliance, and Avianca's owner had mentioned interest in acquiring a stake in the airline, as well as its maintenance operations in Brazil. This could ease LH's possible offer for the airline, as it could associate with Efromovich and not only spend less money, but get the portuguese politicians on board, which have been very vocal about three things: No IAG, no spanish investors, and preferably brazilian investors for TP.

This can only be a sign of good times.
 
SCL767
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:15 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 15):

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 13):
Really? Look at certain international routes, i.e. BOG-PTY, BOG-GYE, BOG-UIO, BOG-SJO, MDE-PTY etc. But it's in both carriers interests to keep fares extremely high on these routes...

Exactly. So then what is this "alternative carrier" and this "good thing" you are talking about? There is nothing good about the duopoly in these routes as you suggested in reply 9.

Increased competition. Fact, NK has applied to operate non-stop flights between BOG and UIO, GYE and LIM. TAME indicated that they will operate a UIO-BOG route very soon.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 15):
I am not sure who would get these slots, but it is likely that whoever does will face many obstacles such as lack of knowledge of the market, lack of a frequent customer base, perhaps the lack of a known or attractive frequent flyer program and, finally, being a small fish trying to compete against a whale. No matter how many remedies the antitrust authorities prescribe, LA-JJ will always be able to find a way to leverage their weight against the airline that ends up picking those GRU-SCL or GRU-XXX routes, if such airline is a start-up or a small airline.

We do not know which carriers will enter the route. However, it's highly likely that LH and/or LX will return to SCL. LH/LX have operated this route before and are familiar with the Chilean market. H2, O6, G3, QR, UA, etc. are other carriers that have expressed an interest in operating the route.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 15):
Well, that is something that may happen in the future, but at the moment, as MaverickM11, LA and affiliates do not serve the Colombia-Central America market.

No, but LAN Colombia is increasing international operations at BOG. AIRES used to operate into PTY, and it is highly likely that LAN Colombia will operate BOG-PTY and BOG-SJO in the near-term. It also very possible that after LATAM is created, TAM may apply for routes to Central America via BOG and LAN will transfer more A320 family a/c over to LAN Colombia to increase regional international operations.
 
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totesen
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 3):

I always felt Avianca would have been better off with Skyteam,

Mee too. they even codeshared with Air France, Delta and AeroMexico.
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SCL767
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:53 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 18):
He's referring implicitly to LAN who will come and save the customers from the horrible AVTA by using their mediocre short haul product that is apparently mindblowingly revolutionary because they combine cargo and newer aircraft (clearly as the others fly 727s), just to offer the exact same fares as the competition.

That "mediocre short-haul product" is very profitable for LAN. Just look at AV-TA's figures compared to LAN's...

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 18):

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 13):
Really? Look at certain international routes, i.e. BOG-PTY, BOG-GYE, BOG-UIO, BOG-SJO, MDE-PTY etc. But it's in both carriers interests to keep fares extremely high on these routes...

Apart from Colombia-Panamá, which will be receiving competition from low cost carriers in the near term, and in which LA would not offer real low fares as I said before, no other route of importance lacks competition.

You said the same thing about LAN's entrance into the Colombian domestic market...

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 18):
It's unfortunate that 2K couldn't compete? Please, you loved it. All of the ecuadorean airline's strategies had to be reevaluated after the fuel subsidy was taken away (remember how LA Ecuador fired a lot of staff and reduced the domestic schedule?), and having a sole 763 at 2K just for one daily flight to JFK was not profitable, not for any airline could it have been profitable, thus they decided to do things through BOG and Central America, and now they're making a lot of money.

LAN Ecuador is actually increasing domestic and international flights since 2K significantly decreased its operations.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 18):

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 13):
LAN will use BOG as a platform to launch flights into Central America.

But hasn't done so yet, as LAN Colombia is not proving as profitable as they wished, and the other colombian airlines not as weak as they thought.

Same can be said about AV Brasil; which was not invited to join the Star Alliance and does not publicly reveal its losses.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 18):

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 13):
And look how many U.S., European, Middle Eastern, plus Latin American carriers operate into LATAM's hubs, especially GRU and GIG. Plus more carriers will add more flights into these hubs.

Alright, we get it, LATAM is much bigger and has more hubs and larger partners at oneworld (oh wait that last part is not true)

Everyone knows that oneworld is a small alliance and is only represented by LA, AA and IAG in Brasil. The Star Alliance feed will benefit AV Brasil's operations in the future; but their international growth will be limited since Star already flies most of the routes that AV Brasil would be interested in.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 18):
And PTY, well, it's PTY, the most formidable connection point, that overshadows nearby cities like Bogotá, Caracas, all with larger populations than Panama itself, in terms of destinations.
  
CM is expected to add 5-6 new destinations every 6 months from now-on. There'll be no surprise if CM (P5) would operate BOG-MIA and a couple of P2P routes out of Colombia (MDE-MAR/GYE come to mind) in the near future too.

As for Oneworld taking over the MIA-SAO non-stop route for themselves, it's critical that UA gets a presence in that market, IMHO, no matter if it's something like a UA MIA/FLL-VCP or Avianca Brasil GRU-FLL/MIA (GRU open-slot off-peak times).
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
A388
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:37 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 10):
For what alternative carrier? Out of BOG they don't have a monopoly on almost any international route of a certain size. And I would love LA and AA with their fair pricing and super low NK style fares come and swoosh away the passengers of two perfectly good and efficient operations which also provide good service, much better than AA's and certainly better than LA's on shorthaul flights. That is one far fetched argument right there.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
JJ/LA are doing the exact same thing as TA/AV for the exact same reasons. End of discussion.
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 15):
Exactly. So then what is this "alternative carrier" and this "good thing" you are talking about?
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 15):
As others have pointed, there is no alternative carrier.

Let's keep in mind, we all know how SCL767 defends LAN to death (as he has the rights to do so of course). Even so, fact indeed is that there is no competition in Central America at the moment and even if LAN Colombia will start flights from Colombia to Central America, good luck getting through that force field of AV/TA/CM combined. LAN is never going to be a competitor of significance on the Central American market. With AV/TA/CM now combining forces, they now have the Central American markets sealed.

A388
 
ordbosewr
Posts: 480
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:48 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 17):

This announcement also removes all doubt about what alliance LATAM will be joining.

One of the conditions of the LAN-TAM deal was that the merged carrier could not be in the same alliance as Avianca-Taca.

Delta has purchased equity in Gol, and Gol and LATAM would never be allowed to be in the same alliance.

With Avianca Taca in Star, and Gol headed for SkyTeam, this means LATAM will be joining OneWorld.

Does it?
You make a fundamental assumption that LATAM need to be in a alliance as one carrier.

I mean there is speculation that LAN stays in OW and TAM goes independent. That would allow them some of flexibility, but there would ultimately some confusion. It is technically possible, but I will agree it is unlikely.

There was speculation that AV-TA would go split alliance as well.
 
A388
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 24):
Does it?
You make a fundamental assumption that LATAM need to be in a alliance as one carrier.

I mean there is speculation that LAN stays in OW and TAM goes independent.

LATAM will indeed be one airline so to speak and I don't see the benefit of JJ going independent. JJ and LA will eventually streamline there operations on all levels so it doesn't make sense for JJ to operate as a standalone operation within LATAM, it doesn't give them any advantages and it only complicates the entire operation for LATAM. JJ going independent to do what?

A388
 
SCL767
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:58 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 23):
With AV/TA/CM now combining forces, they now have the Central American markets sealed.

It depends on what you mean by "have the Central American markets sealed"? AA has a strong presence in Central America, as well as the unaligned carriers such as the U.S. low cost carriers. Also, AV-TA-CM do not even offer any flights from Central America to Europe. IAG has a significant presence in Central America with IBERIA operating non-stop flights into PTY, SJO, GUA, and direct flights into SAL.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:11 pm

So is it a monopoly?

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 9):

A good thing about the monopoly that AV-TA and CM-P5 will have in Central America and on many routes via BOG is that customers will look for an alternative carrier to increase competition on these routes...

or not...?

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 26):

It depends on what you mean by "have the Central American markets sealed"? AA has a strong presence in Central America, as well as the unaligned carriers such as the U.S. low cost carriers. Also, AV-TA-CM do not even offer any flights from Central America to Europe. IAG has a significant presence in Central America with IBERIA operating non-stop flights into PTY, SJO, GUA, and direct flights into SAL.
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 21):

That "mediocre short-haul product" is very profitable for LAN. Just look at AV-TA's figures compared to LAN's...

And if you add the two operating margins together you get CM's results 
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
EddieDude
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 19):
it is highly likely that LAN Colombia will operate BOG-PTY and BOG-SJO in the near-term. It also very possible that after LATAM is created, TAM may apply for routes to Central America via BOG

Likely, possible, will, might, tomorrow, future, some day, maybe. As of now, there is no real competition.

Quoting totesen (Reply 20):
they even codeshared with Air France, Delta and AeroMexico.

Actually they codeshared with MX, not with AM. The codeshare with AM is very, very recent (as in days).

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 24):
I mean there is speculation that LAN stays in OW and TAM goes independent. That would allow them some of flexibility, but there would ultimately some confusion. It is technically possible, but I will agree it is unlikely.

I was not aware that such possibility had been floated. I would also join you in saying it is unlikely. Nonetheless, it is interesting because JJ could have more flexibility in codesharing and partnering with carriers across alliances.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
ordbosewr
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:17 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 25):
LATAM will indeed be one airline so to speak and I don't see the benefit of JJ going independent.

Will they? Are they planning on rebranding one (or both) of the airlines and going to a single code? a la UA and CO & DL & NW.
If they are then they will be forced into a single alliance, but I have not heard any plans to do that.

I believe they planned on staying separate brands but having a single corporate owner. If it is then what I am say is technically possible. They would in fact be 2 airlines with 1 corporate owner. You can tell me all you want that they will be 1 but I will only agree to that if they are moving to a single code.
 
SCL767
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:40 pm

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 24):
I mean there is speculation that LAN stays in OW and TAM goes independent. That would allow them some of flexibility, but there would ultimately some confusion. It is technically possible, but I will agree it is unlikely.

There are references about this idea floating around: Latam Plans To Decide On Alliance In 6-12 Months (by SCL767 Jun 21 2012 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2012-06-21 17:15:41]
 
EddieDude
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:49 am

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 29):
I believe they planned on staying separate brands but having a single corporate owner.

Yes, that is the plan. Creating a single brand was not part of the agreements, and I suppose that merging the corporate entities into one would be impossible due to foreign investments restrictions and bilateral agreements, which is why a holding company to be the owner of both LA and JJ was incorporated with very precise legal engineering to satisfy all parties and remain in compliance with the law of each jurisdiction.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:25 am

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 24):
I mean there is speculation that LAN stays in OW and TAM goes independent.
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 30):
There are references about this idea floating around:

The major flaw in the idea of remaining independent is that the current codeshares JJ enjoys with *A carriers will eventually evaporate once AV-Brasil joins the alliance. Star carriers will be encouraged to partner with AV. As stated by the CAPA analysis, this is the same reasoning for G3 eventually joining SkyPiles despite the CEO's statements to remaining independent of alliances.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
User avatar
copa330200
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:05 am

what this means for CM - KL code share agreements on the PTY - AMS sector ? i think KL is upgrading the route from daily MD11 to daily 777 ...??
On the run !!!
 
tsnamm
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:51 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 7):
I agree it is mostly O&D traffic to and from JFK but they could now also get feed at JFK from carriers such as NH, OZ, OS, SN, MS, LO, LH, LX and TK.



Exactly...there are a great deal of Star carriers at JFK that can transfer passengers to them from other Intl. cities...

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 6):
and route US East Coast and "rust belt" connections through IAD instead, which is currently already served by Avianca, TACA, and Copa.


They can get their US/NA feed this way...
UA can keep their own connecting traffic in house thru IAH and EWR, rather than share any to AV... works out well for all involved
 
A388
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:59 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 26):
It depends on what you mean by "have the Central American markets sealed"? AA has a strong presence in Central America, as well as the unaligned carriers such as the U.S. low cost carriers. Also, AV-TA-CM do not even offer any flights from Central America to Europe. IAG has a significant presence in Central America with IBERIA operating non-stop flights into PTY, SJO, GUA, and direct flights into SAL.

Face it SCL767, CM/AV/TA dominate the Central American markets. AA presence there isn't a thread to the big trio CM/AV/TA. Low costs carriers, well, practically non-existent when comparing them to the big trio as well. You know as well as everybody else here that CM and TA cover the Central American markets like no other carrier ever will...

And now you also take European connections from Central America? Really? You know why connections to Europe are operated by one airline mainly (IB)? Because the market is too small and uninteresting for more airlines to operate them.

A388

[Edited 2012-06-22 06:00:15]
 
2travel2know2
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:18 pm

Latin America profitable for airlines From www.prensa.com in Spanish
Today Panamanian newspaper La Prensa features the news that while in PTY for CM entrance to Star Alliance, both UA and LH chiefs made remarks about the profitability of airlines in Latin America.
Interesting that someone from LH would have come to PTY even if LH doesn't currently flies here.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
airbazar
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:19 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 5):
MAD is where it's probably going to be a bit more difficult, but they already signed a deal with the Renfe network. A codeshare with UX in the future could be seen, they just started operating a codeshare with Sky member Aeroméxico.

There's always the option of keeping MAD as a O&D market, and starting a new route to LIS and use that as the hub to the entire Iberian peninsula. If you were to believe the rumors, Avianca/TACA are very interested in buying TAP.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:20 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 21):
That "mediocre short-haul product" is very profitable for LAN. Just look at AV-TA's figures compared to LAN's...

Indeed, it is very profitable, but outside the colombian market, where they are actually loosing money and haven't gained any significant market share from what 4C had in the past. LAN Colombia hasn't proven the strong performer they thought it would be, because the competition offers a miles better shorthaul product.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 21):
You said the same thing about LAN's entrance into the Colombian domestic market...

What thing? What you quote me saying on that post isn't remotely resembling to anything i have said about LAN's entry into the domestic market, and most of what i've said about their entry into the domestic market has become true: they're not making money, they're not gaining market share and they're cutting down the regional schedule severely.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 21):
LAN Ecuador is actually increasing domestic and international flights since 2K significantly decreased its operations.

By significantly you mean cutting the flight to JFK and a couple of domestic rotations?

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 21):
Same can be said about AV Brasil; which was not invited to join the Star Alliance and does not publicly reveal its losses.

Avianca Brasil may I remind you is not part of the AviancaTaca holding, thus is a separate company that only uses Avianca's brand and is owned by the owner of 66% of the AviancaTaca holding separately. There are plans for it's integration in the future, and all of what it's directives have been saying is that profitability will be achieved this year and that they will pour billions in acquiring 50 new airbuses. But don't associate to AVTA's performance and don't present the fact that they are a private company and are thus not obliged to show their financial results in public as some kind of sing of corruption or bad management, because it's not.

Quoting A388 (Reply 23):
Let's keep in mind, we all know how SCL767 defends LAN to death

A388, this is not a matter of keeping in mind that someone is delusional, it's a matter of keeping the arguments rational and of a certain quality in the forum.
 
A388
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:24 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 38):
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 21):
Same can be said about AV Brasil; which was not invited to join the Star Alliance and does not publicly reveal its losses.

Avianca Brasil may I remind you is not part of the AviancaTaca holding, thus is a separate company that only uses Avianca's brand and is owned by the owner of 66% of the AviancaTaca holding separately.


Yes, and SCL767 knows that but I agree with you RCS763AV.

A388
 
sq452
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:34 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 5):
I don't know if that would be a good idea. EWR is very congested and they frankly are doing great with no feed at JFK, as the flights are purely O/D from New York. Also, even though the colombian community is large in Jersey, the one in Queens and the areas closer to JFK is also very big and more representative.

Yeah fair point, I forgot about the geographic and demographic factors at play in the greater New York area. Perhaps EWR gets a flight added if the demand is there. EWR definitely has its problems and congestion!
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
jfk777
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:23 am

With Copa and Avianca joining Star when is the next merger in Latin America ? Could the expansionist LAN group buy COPA ? It would seem logical as Panama is the next country up the coast. Copa's days as an independent airline are numbered, does AV/Taca merge with them ? Copa merging into AV is the best option for AV to match LAN, it also gives AV a ready made hub at sea-level for expansion beyond the Americas. BOG will always be the heart of Avianca but Panama is where those 787 could really do carzy things, PTY to Tokyo or Sydney, Australia ? Why not we love in a new world.

Panama could also function to expand AV in to Europe like never before, I mean fly to all the places AV used to fly to and more: London, CDG, AMS, FRA, ZRH, LIS, MAD, BCN, FCO, MUC and Moscow. AV should also establish an airline in the Dominican Republic. Finally the future of Latin Skies look bright, they have come along way since teh days I used to fly the Banana-Orange AeroCondor A300 from BAQ to Miami.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2396
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:49 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
AV did fly to Newark in the 1990's but were discontinued.

Save the following points:

AV BOG-JFK is a very consolidated route offering 13x weekly flights: 7x with 332 and 6x with 319.
AV also serves JFK from Medellin and Cali by means of the seasonal AV CLO-MDE-JFK 7x weekly.
UA flies the daily EWR-BOG sector and they asked for more weekly flights to Aerocivil in March 2012.
As part of the integration into Star Alliance, AV and UA started a mutual code-share agreement and the BOG-EWR segment might be forming part of such understanding soon.




.

Quoting ORDBOSEWR (Reply 24):
There was speculation that AV-TA would go split alliance as well.

Some press releases rather stated that AV-TA would begin the unification into a single brand in 2013.




.

Quoting A388 (Reply 35):
CM/AV/TA dominate the Central American markets. AA presence there isn't a thread to the big trio CM/AV/TA. Low costs carriers, well, practically non-existent when comparing them to the big trio as well. You know as well as everybody else here that CM and TA cover the Central American markets like no other carrier

Perhaps I didn't get your point clearly.
The flights on CM and AV-TA heading to the United States is only a chunk of their served markets. They also fly to the Caribbean and South America from their respective hubs.




.

Quoting A388 (Reply 35):
And now you also take European connections from Central America? Really? You know why connections to Europe are operated by one airline mainly (IB)? Because the market is too small and uninteresting for more airlines to operate them.

KL AMS-PTY 7x weekly is also active as well as DE FRA-SDQ-SJO 2x weekly and DE FRA-SDQ-PTY 2x weekly [June 25th onward].
There's no any light yet related if some of the 15 brand new [AV-TA]'s 787s would be based in Central America in order to deploy non-stop flights to Europe.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6173
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:34 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 41):
Copa's days as an independent airline are numbered

That is a very bold statement. Do you have any evidence of this? I thought CM had a very healthy balance sheet.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3645
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RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:12 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 41):
With Copa and Avianca joining Star when is the next merger in Latin America ? Could the expansionist LAN group buy COPA ? It would seem logical as Panama is the next country up the coast. Copa's days as an independent airline are numbered, does AV/Taca merge with them ?

What? That's the most overblown statement I have seen in this forum in months!

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 41):
Copa merging into AV is the best option for AV to match LAN, it also gives AV a ready made hub at sea-level for expansion beyond the Americas.

Again, and I quote 9gag, dafuq did i just read? Not only are they heavy competitors, the colombian and panamanian regulatory activites along with those of many other central american countries would never allow it. BOG's altitude is not a real limitation for the 787 on flights to Europe where demand really is and it's actually possible to fly them without loosing a bunch of money.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 41):
BOG will always be the heart of Avianca but Panama is where those 787 could really do carzy things, PTY to Tokyo or Sydney, Australia ? Why not we love in a new world.

You keep blowing my mind.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 42):
AV also serves JFK from Medellin and Cali by means of the seasonal AV CLO-MDE-JFK 7x weekly.

They fly 3x weekly during the slow season, it became a year round route again this year.
 
ULMFlyer
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:39 am

RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 32):
The major flaw in the idea of remaining independent is that the current codeshares JJ enjoys with *A carriers will eventually evaporate once AV-Brasil joins the alliance.
Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 38):
Avianca Brasil may I remind you is not part of the AviancaTaca holding, thus is a separate company that only uses Avianca's brand and is owned by the owner of 66% of the AviancaTaca holding separately. There are plans for it's integration in the future

Does AV Brasil have to wait until JJ leaves for OW before joining *A? How long in the future are these integration plans?
Let's go Pens!
 
2travel2know2
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Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:01 pm

RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:47 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 41):
Copa's days as an independent airline are numbered,

Have to disagree here.
AV/TA and LATAM multi-hub strategy doesn't fit CM.
CM airline business model is a one-hub operation like - pardon my overblown comparison - EK DXB, QR DOH, SQ SIN, TK IST, ET ADD.
And that's they way more likely they want to remain, with surely some P2P regional routes out of Colombia by P5 to be added soon.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
LJ
Posts: 4103
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:19 pm

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 42):

KL AMS-PTY 7x weekly is also active as well as DE FRA-SDQ-SJO 2x weekly and DE FRA-SDQ-PTY 2x weekly [June 25th onward].

The only reason why KL operates a daily into PTY is that there is a healthy O&D between AMS and PTY next to the connections at both ends. The DE flights are primarily for tourists. Still, IB is much stronger in these Central American markets.

BTW in an article of a Dutch website (www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl) quotes a Star manager (Drury) saying Star that cross-alliances codeshares should end "in due course". Would be interesting to see how long AMS-PTY will survive should this happen.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2396
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:41 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 47):
The only reason why KL operates a daily into PTY is that there is a healthy O&D between AMS and PTY next to the connections at both ends. The DE flights are primarily for tourists. Still, IB is much stronger in these Central American markets.

I don't think KL would start new dedicated flights to Central America in the near future.
KL AMS-PTY was resumed when CM was a Sky Team associate airline. Furthermore, KL bears its code on CM PTY-SJO, CM PTY-MGA, CM PTY-SAL, CM PTY-GUA, CM PTY-SAP, CM PTY-TGU, CM PTY-LIM and CM PTY-SJU. Perhaps KL AMS-PTY carries out a significant chunk of connecting passengers through PTY.


Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:01 pm

RE: Avianca-TACA & Copa Join Star

Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:11 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 47):
BTW in an article of a Dutch website (www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl) quotes a Star manager (Drury) saying Star that cross-alliances codeshares should end "in due course". Would be interesting to see how long AMS-PTY will survive should this happen.

If LH was to offer CM - be from FRA or MUC - the same KL offers CM on AMS-PTY, then IMHO CM might think about dropping the code-share agreement with KL.
Under the current scenario, LH not flying to PTY but CM being an Star Alliance airline, one could guess LH may like to try MUC-PTY a couple of times per week to test the cooperation with CM.
No matter how attractive for PTY that would be, I'd not think either SK or SR may be interested in PTY right-now.
A TP tag-on from CCS or a couple of LIS-PTY to counter-balance IB MAD-PTY perhaps. CM code-share on TP LIS-CCS-LIS and TP code-share on CCS-PTY-CCS, that right now might be a question of how soon it'll happen.
I'm not on CM's payroll.