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anfromme
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Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:34 am

I already mentioned this in the thread about the firmed-up Transaero A380 order, but I think it deserves its own thread.

TK stated that they are going to decide between the 747-8i and the A380 before the end of July.
Talk is of at least 15 of whichever type they choose.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...s-or-boeing-jumbos-next-month.html

Quote:
Turk Hava Yollari AO, or Turkish Airlines, will order at least 15 jumbo airliners valued at $4 billion from Airbus SAS (EAD) or Boeing Co. (BA) as early as next month


This order seems to have been in the works for ages - I think they first mentioned that they were evaluating 747-8i and A380 as far back as 2009/2010. Looks like we'll know the outcome of that before the end of Farnborough.
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CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:50 am

I'll be chuffed to bits if they take A380 but think this has 748i written all over it.

15 frames seems a lot doesnt it>?
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
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anfromme
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:15 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
I'll be chuffed to bits if they take A380 but think this has 748i written all over it.

Just out of curiousity: Why do you think so? Any particular reason or just a hunch?

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):

15 frames seems a lot doesnt it>?

I thought the same - I expected maybe 10. What they're saying, though, is that 15 is the minimum, i.e. it could well be even more than 15.
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Nimish
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:19 am

I think it's the 748 too, just a guess given the 380 might be too much capacity for them, plus Boeing is probably desperate for additional sales so TK should get a great deal on the 748s.
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:44 am

Quoting anfromme (Reply 2):

I think 15 A380s is a tall order, but 15 748is a bit easier to absorb.

I think the 748i is a more natural evolution, capacity wise and I also think Boeing have this in the bag because they usually win more orders after EIS, and my gut says TK could use the capacity now, not in 2015 when the first A388 would be available probably.

Will be a seriously handsome looking bird as well.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:56 am

Turkish just got a bunch of great looking 77W's, what do these planes lack ? Nada. Getting 748 or A380 is " keeping up with Emirates", and why get another plane type to the fleet. They should order 15 77W's more and not have an ego trip.
 
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:56 am

It would be a big boost to the 748 program if TK were to choose it; Turkish has been (along with the M/E carriers) one of the biggest carriers never to have used the 747.

I am wondering whether TK's long awaited mid-size widebody deal might have a bearing on this; TK has been due to choose either the 787 or A350 for some time now. While Boeing would undoubtedly give TK a very good deal on 748s and 787s (and likewise Airbus with A380s and A350s), politics would have a big impact here and the Turkish govt would probably like to "share the love around" for political reasons.
 
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:00 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
Turkish just got a bunch of great looking 77W's, what do these planes lack ?

200 seats?

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na
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:05 pm

I also think that the 748I is the favourite here, the A380 seems to be a step too much, especially if they talk about 15 or more.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
Turkish just got a bunch of great looking 77W's, what do these planes lack ? Nada. Getting 748 or A380 is " keeping up with Emirates", and why get another plane type to the fleet. They should order 15 77W's more and not have an ego trip.

Rubbish. If they can fill them, the Quads are better, and, as being more comfortable, a better tool for marketing also than the 77W, which contrary than you say is THE real me-too plane today. Maybe they even hand back a few 77Ws for 748Is as the fleet growth seems very massive otherwise?
 
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:13 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
Getting 748 or A380 is " keeping up with Emirates", and why get another plane type to the fleet. They should order 15 77W's more and not have an ego trip.

What?   

TK is an impressive airline and is growing at a significant rate. They clearly need bigger planes and can justify the cost. Like EK, they are very well placed geographically to run a very large connection-based airline. They've also suggested they won't be buying A350s or 787s as they need bigger planes. It looks like their future long-haul fleet will be 77W and A380/748. How long they'll keep A330s for regional routes remains to be seen.
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:30 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
I'll be chuffed to bits if they take A380 but think this has 748i written all over it.

15 frames seems a lot doesnt it>?

Just the beginning. If you look at the current growth rates of Turkey, 15 ULA are just right for the moment, and on longer term they need more, and I would claim 15 of each.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
Turkish just got a bunch of great looking 77W's, what do these planes lack ? Nada. Getting 748 or A380 is " keeping up with Emirates", and why get another plane type to the fleet. They should order 15 77W's more and not have an ego trip.

The CASM of the 77W just is too bad - if your competition has a 20% better CASM don't go for such old technology. 748I would make sense as the more conservative choice, A380 to really join the first row of world airlines.
I'm sure in the end the money decides at this purchase.
 
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:35 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 6):
TK has been due to choose either the 787 or A350 for some time now.

There won't be any 787/A350 order since TK is looking for the larger planes. Atleast that's what CEO T.K. says in the article:

"It hasn’t ordered Boeing’s 787 or the Airbus A350, the newest wide-bodies, and is unlikely to do so as it seeks larger jets, Chief Executive Officer Temel Kotil has said."
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CXfirst
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:40 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 3):
I think it's the 748 too, just a guess given the 380 might be too much capacity for them, plus Boeing is probably desperate for additional sales so TK should get a great deal on the 748s.

They have had good growth. And they are ambitious.

That too me says A380. I really think that they believe they can fill them.

15 of the largest aircraft, really says a lot to the world. That puts their aircraft order in the LH, AF, BA territory, almost at SQ, QF level. They will be a force to be reckoned with.

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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:41 pm

Quoting anfromme (Thread starter):

TK stated that they are going to decide between the 747-8i and the A380 before the end of July.
Talk is of at least 15 of whichever type they choose.

The third option, not mentioned, could be to order neither and get more 777s.
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Burkhard
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:49 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 13):
The third option, not mentioned, could be to order neither and get more 777s.

I don't think so. This would neither be equivalent to the role Turkey sees for itself now, the actual growth and would not make financial sense. The 748I doesn't cost much more than the 77W, is bigger and has better CASM. Now that Boeing also states clearly that 77W you order now will be obsolete after a few years of operation due to the next generation 777, I expect the big time of the 77W to be over.
 
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:54 pm

Quoting na (Reply 8):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):Turkish just got a bunch of great looking 77W's, what do these planes lack ? Nada. Getting 748 or A380 is " keeping up with Emirates", and why get another plane type to the fleet. They should order 15 77W's more and not have an ego trip.
Rubbish. If they can fill them, the Quads are better, and, as being more comfortable, a better tool for marketing also than the 77W, which contrary than you say is THE real me-too plane today. Maybe they even hand back a few 77Ws for 748Is as the fleet growth seems very massive otherwise?

So do they need 15 748 or A380 for growth or do they need 15 BIG planes to replace 15 77W's since you would hand back a "few" ? The TK 77W seats 337 passengers, is a 600 seat A380 an answer ? TK doesn't have First Class and limited size J Class, only 28 on the 77W. TK should watch what happens to airlines when they get all the big planes planes they want, remember JAL and all its 747's Bankrupt but the biggest plane is now a 77W.
 
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:59 pm

This order is in the works for ages, I love TK but they always seem to miss the boat when it comes to WB orders. TK is ambitious and likes to show off, even if 380 is a bit large for what they need they would purchase it and make it work. However for many reasons I would not go in to so the thread doesn't go down the tubes Boeing can thank Mr. Sarkozy for the 748 order they will get from TK. That changed everything on this order. Although not what it used to be but politics play some part in TK's orders. They will buy A and B, but Airbus is a at significant disadvantage even though Sarkozy is gone, relationship will take years to go back to the good ol days.


Edited for spelling.

[Edited 2012-06-21 06:06:33]
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tk1244
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:07 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 15):
So do they need 15 748 or A380 for growth or do they need 15 BIG planes to replace 15 77W's since you would hand back a "few" ?

They will use them for growth not to replace the Boeing 77W's

Quoting gokmengs (Reply 16):
Although not what it used to be but politics play some part in TK's orders. They will buy A and B, but Airbus is a at significant disadvantage even though Sarkozy is gone, relationship will take years to go back to the good ol days.

I don't see an A380 order, but it won't be because of Sarkozy and his proposed 'Armenian Genocide' law. The thing in Turkey is that they have a big mouth towards these countries, but in the end they'll do nothing what they actually say. Remember the attack on the Mavi Marmara ship (tender for the modernization of Turkish tanks went to Israel after it) and the proposed 'Armenian Genocide' law (tender for the chip used on Turkish passports originally went to a French company...)

[Edited 2012-06-21 06:08:26]
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:11 pm

Quoting TK1244 (Reply 17):

Although I don't see an A380 order, it won't be because of Sarkozy and his proposed 'Armenian Genocide' law. The thing in Turkey is that they have a big mouth towards these countries, but in the end they'll do nothing what they actually say. Remember the attack on the Mavi Marmara ship (tender for the modernization of Turkish tanks went to Israel after it) and the proposed 'Armenian Genocide' law (tender for the chip used on Turkish passports originally went to a French company...)
Much less visible orders, plus president is all show when it comes to Israel, always wants strong ties behind the scene. TK always wanted to get the 380 sine EIS, made every plan for it. Lets see what happens its Airbus's order to lose. Whatever they decide they need it pronto....
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na
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:24 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 15):
So do they need 15 748 or A380 for growth or do they need 15 BIG planes to replace 15 77W's since you would hand back a "few" ?

I only said a growth by 15 VLAs, either A380 or 748, is massive even for an ambitious airline like TK. I dont expect it, but also wouldnt wonder to much if some 77Ws would be handed back once 748s arrive, should they be ordered.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 15):
TK should watch what happens to airlines when they get all the big planes planes they want, remember JAL and all its 747's Bankrupt but the biggest plane is now a 77W.

JAL is a special case with dramatic problems. The 777 doesnt make them a great airline now, they have lost much business and are a shadow of their former self and not a forerunner of the industry anymore. Their problems had absolutely nothing to do with the planes they had, they were just a too big operation, badly managed in a long crisis. Their huge 777 fleet didnt help them to go bankrupt anyway. The 77W is btw only slightly smaller than the 744 so I dont see your point at all.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 14):
Now that Boeing also states clearly that 77W you order now will be obsolete after a few years of operation due to the next generation 777, I expect the big time of the 77W to be over.

  
Soon Boeing will have problems to get orders for the current 777 models for sure because the 77X will be at the horizon and in the 20s the 77W will technologically become what the 744 is now. Time moves on.
 
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:48 pm

If past orders are a guide - they'll split this order. Have they definitively said for definite one or the other and not both?
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
northstar80
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:51 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 20):
If past orders are a guide - they'll split this order. Have they definitively said for definite one or the other and not both?

The bloomberg article says that it qont be a split order
 
something
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:03 pm

While I agree that rationally speaking the 748 seems a more logical choice, I have difficulties believing that Turks would go for ''the more sensible choice''. It's just not really part of their mentality. And in this case, they would have a point. While a TK 748 would indeed be looking incredibly beautiful, the average traveller would never notice it. The A380 on the other hand is a fantastic marketing tool and as TK is competing against EK, QR, EY that will all at some point operate the whale, practically a necessity.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 15):

You are seriously misinformed. JAL didn't go bankrupt because of their 747s. And TK is facing serious congestion-related constraints at IST. It's more important for TK to expand their network to more destinations, rather than to boost frequencies to existing ones. It's not like your screenname here makes any effort in concealing your blatant bias, but your personal preference doesn't determine what the rest of the world perceives as 'reality'.
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KDAYflyer
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:06 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 4):
I think the 748i is a more natural evolution, capacity wise and I also think Boeing have this in the bag because they usually win more orders after EIS, and my gut says TK could use the capacity now, not in 2015 when the first A388 would be available probably.

Will be a seriously handsome looking bird as well.

I think both birds were a bit too much capacity wise, but hey, I obviously dont run the airline. It would be nice to see the 748i win this one. I wonder if they were part of the 30+ MOU's Boeing was hoping to "firm up soon"?
 
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:15 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
Getting 748 or A380 is " keeping up with Emirates",

   I see no reason for a plane larger than the 77W for them. They need frequency more than gauge, and their average LF to the US is in the 70s.
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:17 pm

Why are 15 A388's too much for TK to expand? On what is this (exactly) based? EK ordered so many widebodies and it seems to work for them. TK has stated over the past few years that they want to compete with the likes of EK so going for "a smaller number" of A388 's only makes sense to me if they want to become a hub between Europe and Asia of any significance. They seem to grow at a desent pace.

A388
 
phxa340
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:42 pm

Quoting something (Reply 22):
The A380 on the other hand is a fantastic marketing tool and as TK is competing against EK, QR, EY that will all at some point operate the whale, practically a necessity.

You do not need an A380 to compete with an A380, period.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:54 pm

If TK needs to grow in the near term, then the 747-8 is probably the correct choice for them based on availability. Airbus continues to struggle to get to 30 units a year (and the wing cracks are not helping), while Boeing should be at 24 units a year by now and if world air cargo continues to see slow to no growth, some 747-8F customers could defer deliveries, which would open slots for TK.
 
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:55 pm

Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 23):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 4):
I think the 748i is a more natural evolution, capacity wise and I also think Boeing have this in the bag because they usually win more orders after EIS, and my gut says TK could use the capacity now, not in 2015 when the first A388 would be available probably.

Will be a seriously handsome looking bird as well.

I think both birds were a bit too much capacity wise, but hey, I obviously dont run the airline. It would be nice to see the 748i win this one. I wonder if they were part of the 30+ MOU's Boeing was hoping to "firm up soon"?

Thing is, and lots on this site are guilty of this, we tend to view things like aircraft orders and the relative success of airliner programmes as a here and now thing. They arent. Whatever plane TK order now wont be with them until 2014 at the very earliest, and they'll likely be intending on using the planes they buy for a good 25 years.

Who's to say what TK may be like in 2038? At their growth rate, they'll be a very different animal to the rapidly-changing airline we know and increasingly love these days.

Turkey's population is growing massively, their airports are congested, and what might seem like a narrow VLA requirement today may look somewhat different in a few years.

Some see it as keeping up with the Jones' and Maktoum's but I see it as planning for the future.

Quoting something (Reply 22):
While I agree that rationally speaking the 748 seems a more logical choice, I have difficulties believing that Turks would go for ''the more sensible choice''. It's just not really part of their mentality. And in this case, they would have a point. While a TK 748 would indeed be looking incredibly beautiful, the average traveller would never notice it. The A380 on the other hand is a fantastic marketing tool and as TK is competing against EK, QR, EY that will all at some point operate the whale, practically a necessity

Whoa there on the generalisations there mate. You could be right but not sure its appropriate to make such sweeping statements.

Also, I'm as bullish as you'll get on the A380 - but I dont think you can say the average traveller will make such a distinction until you've been on a 748i - i havent so I cant say for sure, but i do know the A380's appeal is largely because it is so quiet and spacious, and theres nothing to say the 747-8i wont be much the same?

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 26):

Quoting something (Reply 22):
The A380 on the other hand is a fantastic marketing tool and as TK is competing against EK, QR, EY that will all at some point operate the whale, practically a necessity.

You do not need an A380 to compete with an A380, period

Thats true. You'll be able to compete with today's A388s with 747-8is, A35Js and 7779Xs probably. Wont match it on CASM but will get close enough to other issues to be more important.

Tomorrow's A388R or A389 though? Lets see. No guarantees.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
something
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:01 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 26):
Quoting something (Reply 22):
The A380 on the other hand is a fantastic marketing tool and as TK is competing against EK, QR, EY that will all at some point operate the whale, practically a necessity.

You do not need an A380 to compete with an A380, period.

CASM-wise, yes you do. Labor-cost wise, obviously. Prestige-wise, that too. Maximizing the revenue potential of slots at slot restricted airports, there too.

Just because other aircraft earn money too, doesn't mean that in the right market the A380 has an edge over all of them in all those and more aspects, at this point.

I doubt you have been to Turkey, or have ever talked to a Turk, but I would be very surprised if TK didn't go for the A380. I would have expected a split order, but as that seems to be off the table, I am one to put my eggs in the A380's basket. If you take a look at Turkish's recent growth rates, and assume that to they will perpetuate growth - not even as progressively as they have - even a 70% filled 77W of will soon require 1.5 A380s.
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anfromme
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:07 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 28):
Thing is, and lots on this site are guilty of this, we tend to view things like aircraft orders and the relative success of airliner programmes as a here and now thing. They arent. Whatever plane TK order now wont be with them until 2014 at the very earliest, and they'll likely be intending on using the planes they buy for a good 25 years.

I agree. Also, if they were really that concerned about whether they get their planes in 2015 or 2016, they could've placed an order back in 2010 when they initially said they would.
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:15 pm

If TK had been an existing 744 operator, then I would imagine them buying the 748i, but as they're not, and expect rapid growth in the next few years, I can see them getting the A380 instead. Moving from the 77W to the 748i doesn't seem worth the effort, when the 2 types are so different...
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:21 pm

Turkish has a very split fleet between Airbus and Boeing, so I don’t see any loyalty to either side. It will be interesting to see which way they go if they are the next VLA. Turkish has big ambitions, but unlike many of the Middle Eastern countries, its growth is sustained on strong domestic and regional traffic.
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:24 pm

I think this one is too close to call and i don't think it will be the different capacities that will decide in the end.

For the A380.
Keeping up with EK (An airline they are tyring hard to emulate)
Status - Be seen to be in the same league as LH, BA,

For the 747-8i
Boeing could offer a deal they can't refuse. (Boeing will be hungrier for this order)
A likely costomer for the 747-8F also.

I can see this order going either way.
 
leftyboarder
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:26 pm

Honestly, I would like to see A380 for the VLA order of 12-15 aircraft and a top-up order of around 8-10 for the 77W/333 for growth in non-trunk routes. Although the A380 will free up some 77W for use in expansion, I still think they need more mid-size long haulers.
 
something
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:28 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 28):
Whoa there on the generalisations there mate. You could be right but not sure its appropriate to make such sweeping statements.

It's not a sweeping statement, it's a simple observation and not in the slightest ''racist'' or anything remotely close to that effect. Lufthansa and British Airways keep their products low key, Emirates enjoys ostentation. Americans enjoy showing off ''economical success'', Europeans usually find that embarrassing and classless. Cola tastes much sweeter in Australia than it does in Britain. Those are all just cultural or regional differences.

If you think it's ''discriminatory'' to say Turks generally prefer B over A, and we should just assume they prefer A just like us, then that reveals your personal judgment of people who prefer B more so than it does mine..

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 28):
Also, I'm as bullish as you'll get on the A380 - but I dont think you can say the average traveller will make such a distinction until you've been on a 748i - i havent so I cant say for sure, but i do know the A380's appeal is largely because it is so quiet and spacious, and theres nothing to say the 747-8i wont be much the same?

Just look at how Lufthansa introduced the A380 to their fleet, and what they did about the 748. Even I usually need a closer look to tell a 748 apart from a 744. Objectively, the 748 may well be the better ride. But as a marketing tool, it just won't do the same for the airline as an A380 would.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 33):
For the 747-8i
Boeing could offer a deal they can't refuse. (Boeing will be hungrier for this order)
A likely costomer for the 747-8F also.

I can see this order going either way.

Or how about a split order between A380 for passengers and 748s for cargo?

Quoting anfromme (Reply 30):
Also, if they were really that concerned about whether they get their planes in 2015 or 2016, they could've placed an order back in 2010 when they initially said they would.

Europe's economy is not exactly blooming in all parts right now, so a later delivery date may actually be advantageous. But on that note: Who is getting the Kingfisher A380 slots? Who'd get the Hong Kong Airlines A380 slots?
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
northstar80
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:29 pm

RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:33 pm

Quoting something (Reply 22):
I have difficulties believing that Turks would go for ''the more sensible choice''. It's just not really part of their mentality.

Regardless of subject, I don't think this is an appropriate way to comment about other nations.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15222
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:35 pm

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 34):
Although the A380 will free up some 77W for use in expansion, I still think they need more mid-size long haulers.

They can't fill the 77Ws to the Americas--where are they going to put more 77Ws? Let alone 380s?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
something
Posts: 1239
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting Northstar80 (Reply 36):
Quoting something (Reply 22):
I have difficulties believing that Turks would go for ''the more sensible choice''. It's just not really part of their mentality.

Regardless of subject, I don't think this is an appropriate way to comment about other nations.

Again, if you think that my statement holds ''judgmental overtone'', it says more about you than it does about me. What you're basically saying is ''investing in prestige is wrong, because I don't do it this way, so everybody who does is stupid.'' And that makes you think I said ''TK growth strategy is dumb''.

Before my post, the 748 was dealt as ''the more logical/sensible choice'', as the next bigger step. To which I simply said: This is not how TK does business. Look at their fantastic cabins and compare it to that of US airlines. There is a lot of pride in the company. TK seems to be saying ''we're the best, fly with us'', while US airlines seem to be saying ''the competition is just as bad, so you might as well fly with us''.

I don't think that is an accusation Turks have to be ashamed about at all...
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
columba
Posts: 5043
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 34):
Although the A380 will free up some 77W for use in expansion, I still think they need more mid-size long haulers.

They can't fill the 77Ws to the Americas--where are they going to put more 77Ws? Let alone 380s?

Istanbul would be perfect Hub to connect Europe with Asia and at a later time also American travellers to Asia and Australia.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:01 pm

Quoting something (Reply 35):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 28):
Whoa there on the generalisations there mate. You could be right but not sure its appropriate to make such sweeping statements.

It's not a sweeping statement, it's a simple observation and not in the slightest ''racist'' or anything remotely close to that effect. Lufthansa and British Airways keep their products low key, Emirates enjoys ostentation. Americans enjoy showing off ''economical success'', Europeans usually find that embarrassing and classless. Cola tastes much sweeter in Australia than it does in Britain. Those are all just cultural or regional differences.

If you think it's ''discriminatory'' to say Turks generally prefer B over A, and we should just assume they prefer A just like us, then that reveals your personal judgment of people who prefer B more so than it does mine..

I didnt mention the R word - you did.

Your statement implies Turkish people as part of their nature do not make sensible choices. I know lots of sensible Turkish people. Ergo its not a valid generalisation in my view. Your experience may be different.

Quoting something (Reply 38):
Before my post, the 748 was dealt as ''the more logical/sensible choice'', as the next bigger step. To which I simply said: This is not how TK does business. Look at their fantastic cabins and compare it to that of US airlines. There is a lot of pride in the company. TK seems to be saying ''we're the best, fly with us'', while US airlines seem to be saying ''the competition is just as bad, so you might as well fly with us''.

See, this I agree with - well put.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:02 pm

Quoting something (Reply 35):
Just look at how Lufthansa introduced the A380 to their fleet, and what they did about the 748. Even I usually need a closer look to tell a 748 apart from a 744

Not in the cabin you wouldnt.  
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
JerseyFlyer
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:04 pm

Quoting something (Reply 35):
Who is getting the Kingfisher A380 slots? Who'd get the Hong Kong Airlines A380 slots?

Maybe Transaero for 4.

There are also 2 Air Austral deferrals. But HK Airlines - only just ordered!
 
OM617
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:17 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 6):
It would be a big boost to the 748 program if TK were to choose it; Turkish has been (along with the M/E carriers) one of the biggest carriers never to have used the 747.

IIRC, MS, ME, RJ, KU, IA, IR, SV, RB have all flown 747 at one time or another.

Enough with A v. B for the moment. Later in the article, it says TK is looking at 10 possible takeover prospects with the hope of creating hubs in Africa and Asia. Anyone know who these targets may be, or where the hubs are?

Thanks!
 
Flyglobal
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:18 pm

I know many Turkish people and a lot of their mentality.
These people are very proud, because of the success of Turkish end they like that Turkish is seen as a quality airline recently.

In order to enhance their reputation further and to have a marketing tool 'free of charge', I believe (and see they would like) the Turkish people wish to have the largest plane, the A380 in Turkish fleet.

Also with the A380 they have a lot of playground to install special equipment, e.g. like Korean air, being even able to give up seating capacity for a space consuming duty free shop/ display, or the showers with EK.

While I believe the 748i would be more appropriate for Turkish and Boeing may make a super deal, my coins are on the A380.

I do not believe that they will order the 748i only and no A380.
They either order the A380 only, or both A380 and 748i: e.g. 10 A380 and 10-15 748i., similar to LH or KE.


Regards

Flyglobal
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:27 pm

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 42):
Maybe Transaero for 4.

There are also 2 Air Austral deferrals. But HK Airlines - only just ordered!

TK's order would fit right in 
Quoting OM617 (Reply 43):
IIRC, MS, ME, RJ, KU, IA, IR, SV, RB have all flown 747 at one time or another.

Those carriers are nothing to aspire to

Quoting OM617 (Reply 43):
with the hope of creating hubs in Africa and Asia

What a disaster. Just stop the insanity. TK has an excellent network and 'scissor' hubs never, ever work.

Quoting columba (Reply 39):
Istanbul would be perfect Hub to connect Europe with Asia and at a later time also American travellers to Asia and Australia.

They're still not filling their 77Ws, nor operating many routes daily, so why bother with anything larger?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:32 pm

The A380 is far more of a statement of intent than the 748i, everyone knows that it's the largest airliner you can get, and the statement to the world that your airline is up with the 'big boys', whereas the 748i is just another jumbo.

if you've never operated the 747 before, it's hardly a simple step up from the 77W anyway. If Boeing had launched a stretched 777-400 instead, then that would be a logical step up in size, but the 748i is a significantly different plane, with different engines and systems.
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
jfk777
Posts: 5830
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:49 pm

Quoting something (Reply 22):
You are seriously misinformed. JAL didn't go bankrupt because of their 747s. And TK is facing serious congestion-related constraints at IST. It's more important for TK to expand their network to more destinations, rather than to boost frequencies to existing ones. It's not like your screenname here makes any effort in concealing your blatant bias, but your personal preference doesn't determine what the rest of the world perceives as 'reality'.

My Dear British Sir,

Just because i am " Jfk 777" doesn't mean the best airplane is a 777. And JFK is not a "perfect" airport, if I had to say Changi is.

JAL operated far too many 744 until just 2 years ago from all regional Japanesse cities to Hawaii on JALways, does that sound like a profitable situation to you ? Its one thing to fly a 744 with 80 J clas seats to CDG, LHR or JFK but far too many JAL flights were on planes too big for the need of the market. JAL also had a similar culture to that great American airline, " it can't happen to us", we know how that turned out for Pan AM. While many factors combined to kill JAL having too many 4 engine 747 was very significant one. BA has tons of 744 too but they are all used on 6 hour plus flights with 70 J class seats(high J on BA), none are used regionally or with "tourist" configurations like Virgin 744 LGW operation to Orlando. Then before BA was floated her majesty's exchequor did "save" BA back in the 1980's. Hope that informs you old chap.
 
leftyboarder
Posts: 739
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:38 pm

RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:10 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
They're still not filling their 77Ws, nor operating many routes daily, so why bother with anything larger?

In fact they are... Except YYZ (limited by bilaterals), GRU (worst performing long haul route so far) and IAH (starting only next year), all long haul is pretty much daily - JFK 3x, IAD 1x, LAX 1x, NRT 1x, KIX 1x, PEK 1x, PVG 1x, ICN 1x, HKG 6w, JNB 1x, BKK 11w, SIN 1x.

Latest load factor for N. America is 74.8% and for Far East, it is 76.5%.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15222
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Turkish To Decide Between 747-8i / A380 Next Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 48):
In fact they are...

CAN is 4/week, HKG 6/week, KIX/IST 5/week

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 48):
Latest load factor for N. America is 74.8% and for Far East, it is 76.5%.

That's not full--10pts higher and *then* maybe they'd need to start looking at larger aircraft, but with their network more frequency would be better than larger gauge.
E pur si muove -Galileo

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