KarlB737
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Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:21 pm

In what has become a repeating predictable sequence of events another airline is turning its back on TOL. The repeating sequence of events goes as follows. No new airline service is pursued with any seriousness. If a airline such as Direct Air or Vision or whoever knocks on the door and offers a route TOL accepts with great fanfare. Said service is kept a secret. In other words no advertising or promotion is put forth that might draw fliers. The airline that showed up at the door is "expected" to do everything for themselves because as has been proven in a lengthy history the TOL "administration" is not going to take their feet off the desk and put forth any effort with the city or the community.

At most other regional airports there is a joint effort to achieve a strong flier base of strength via a planned outreach to the community to ascertain destinations they would like coupled with a concerted effort to attain flier support for such a route. RFD is a good example where a strong connection between the airport and the community was established and flier support measured. I specifically recall Allegiant being impressed with this kind of effort which produced results that RFD could literally hand to Allegiant as proof of support for air service.

It is also known that the TOL "administration" repeatedly blames the economy, high fuel prices, and the nearby DTW for the cause of their lack of air service. I have always found this humerous since smaller airports such as MBL and APN are constantly at work to achieve new air service. MBL lost Frontier service to MKE but in just about a month acquired new regional jet service to MDW. APN, again a much smaller airport than TOL will lose Delta to DTW when APN finds another carrier. There is now a high possibility that APN will acquire better air service than they had because of the hard work that they are doing to pursue air service.

Despite being near CLE and PIT I don't see CAK doing all that bad in this same economy coupled with fuel prices where they are as well. I don't need to go into detail the success that FNT, LAN is experiencing in the current economic climate.

It has been suggested that TOL is trying to attain service from Frontier to DEN. Since this possibility was hinted in the media I doubt if I could list all the cities that have in fact been officially informed that they are going to receive Frontier service. TOL has yet to acquire this service and has been totally silent on this as they were with a previous effort to secure service to New York.

What I am trying to show here is the obvious contrast in effort between TOL and other regional airports even those that are significantly smaller than TOL. The contrast in the results are significant.

This background information on the usual sequence of events as it relates to the TOL approach on the subject brings us to this story in the local Toledo paper today. I am sure you will now be able to see how it fits right in with what I have outlined above.

Courtesy: The Toledo Blade

Vision Airlines Pulls Out Of Toledo After Less Than A Month

http://www.toledoblade.com/business/...oledo-after-less-than-a-month.html

[Edited 2012-06-21 11:02:53]
 
BluYonder
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:53 pm

Well....I'm not so sure TOL or any airport would be wise to stick their neck out for the likes of Direct Air or Vison. They can't keep them out, but they might not be the kind of airline they want to stake their reputation on. If I was an Airport Director with Vision service, I think I'd want to keep them at arms length until they prove that the past doesn't always repeat itself.
 
KarlB737
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:08 pm

Quoting BluYonder (Reply 1):
Well....I'm not so sure TOL or any airport would be wise to stick their neck out for the likes of Direct Air or Vison.

In both of these cases there is no neck to stick out. TOL is not worried about the risks associated with these airlines. TOL likes these airlines because they approach them with service whether reliable or not. They like them because they are the kind you don't have to lift a finger to attain.
 
mikefrommke
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
It has been suggested that TOL is trying to attain service from Frontier to DEN. Since this possibility was hinted in the media I doubt if I could list all the cities that have in fact been officially informed that they are going to receive Frontier service. TOL has yet to acquire this service and has been totally silent on this as they were with a previous effort to secure service to New York.

F9 was awarded a SCASD grant for TOL service but never announced that service was actually going to start. SCASD grants go unused all the time.
 
N202PA
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:52 pm

Vision Air seems about as directionless as TOL here. Someone needs to rebrand and refocus them before they spend their way into insolvency.
 
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enilria
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:22 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):

In what has become a repeating predictable sequence of events another airline is turning its back on TOL.

I'd say it was customers that turned their back on TOL and that's how it got that way in the first place. It should be more expensive to fly out of a place with few flights and no economies of scale. People would rather save a dollar and hop on I-75.
 
bennett123
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:49 pm

Sounds as Vision did not do their homework.

IMO, a route dropped that soon is a route that should not have been started.
 
ATLgaUSA
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:37 pm

TOL may find itself without airline service altogether if the folks running the place don't change what they're doing.
 
727LOVER
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:41 pm

Did G4 serve TOL?-------
Love Trumps Hate
 
luv2fly
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:57 pm

The problem with TOL is the simple fact that DTW is just up the road and for parts of TOL you might actually be closer to DTW. And you can most likely fly nonstop from DTW over connecting from TOL.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
FWAERJ
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:01 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 8):

Did G4 serve TOL?-------

G4 currently serves TOL-PIE/SFB.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
bennett123
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:16 pm

Last photo in the index was 2005.

Not sure why.
 
727LOVER
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:10 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 10):

For how long?

If that service is working, they should worry more about keeping a proven carrier like G4 than the likes of Direct Air
Love Trumps Hate
 
toltommy
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:21 am

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
another airline is turning its back on TOL.

The TOL community never embraced the service. But then again I've never seen the attraction of flying to MYR.

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
MBL and APN are constantly at work to achieve new air service.

Neither are in spitting distance of a major world hub.

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
Despite being near CLE and PIT I don't see CAK doing all that bad in this same economy

CAK has economy of scale and years of success getting people to drive down to CAK. East side of CLE is just as far from CLE as it is from CAK. YNG area flyers are evenly split between CAK and PIT. CAK isn't run as a patronage favor to democrats like TOL is. CAK has an independant airport board and is run like a business.

Quoting mikefrommke (Reply 3):
F9 was awarded a SCASD grant for TOL service but never announced that service was actually going to start.

F9 was not awarded the grant. TOL was, with hopes of attracting F9. Sad when F9, which seems to like subsidies, won't fly to TOL. But as others point out the last SCASD grant (for service to NYC) went for naught.

TOL waived all fess for Vision. Hopefully they've waived them for AA as well.
 
ASFlyer
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:48 am

I'm baffled that this surprises anyone. Vision has a history of opening and closing markets overnight. That, with TOL's seeming disinterest in securing any kind of reputable airline service, wasn't a good combination to start out with.
 
ouboy79
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:22 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 5):
I'd say it was customers that turned their back on TOL and that's how it got that way in the first place. It should be more expensive to fly out of a place with few flights and no economies of scale. People would rather save a dollar and hop on I-75.

I don't really see how an airline can expect positive results immediately in a market like TOL with only 5 weeks advanced notice of service. Not to mention the introductory fares were $99 one way versus the fire sale they did 2 weeks ago of $29 one way. Most airlines are going to have a bunch of throw away flights the first couple of weeks (or so) of service as they get introduced to the community. There is little reason to not have extremely aggressive fares to kick off to get people to try the service first. Now granted the level of service has not won many good reviews...9 hour delays and such hurt. Regardless, in TOL you are going up against 95% leakage to DTW and essentially competing against NK and DL. TOL can be very successful in its own right, but it is going to take the proper approach to capture the market.

Quoting ATLgaUSA (Reply 7):
TOL may find itself without airline service altogether if the folks running the place don't change what they're doing.

AA seems pretty stable and G4 is satisfied with what they have. If the Port is actually doing something right, they would be talking to them to launch PGD for the winter travel season. AA at the end of the day treats TOL as a destination and does very little TOL originating traffic. It is a high yield market for them and from the sounds of it many of their pax are elite status travelers.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 12):
For how long?

If that service is working, they should worry more about keeping a proven carrier like G4 than the likes of Direct Air

G4 has been serving TOL for 7 years this winter. I agree they need to retrench and boost G4 service up significantly.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 13):
The TOL community never embraced the service. But then again I've never seen the attraction of flying to MYR.

Some how YNG does very well to MYR on G4...but that is G4 too. Of course it is hard to embrace air service with the rapid announcement/start up timeline they did. This was nothing like when G4 swooped in right after TMA when belly up and grabbed a market that was essentially active.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 13):
CAK isn't run as a patronage favor to democrats like TOL is. CAK has an independant airport board and is run like a business.

I think the leadership of the Port would love to get rid of managing the airport. Then problem is you know the recycled career politicians that control your local community would just reappoint their buddies to the new airport authority. It also seems that the best option would be to let a private company take it over.

The TOL market has proven that it will support nearly 700k passengers a year...I think the last study had the total market size around 1.2-1.5M pax a year. That city use to be very strong for Delta and US Airways but did very little to keep them around. Yes everyone drives to Detroit...but it can be reversed some. However it is going to take attractive fares and nonstop service to quality business/leisure destinations.

I agree with you on the AA front. They need to ensure they retain them to keep connected to traditional airline network.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 14):
I'm baffled that this surprises anyone. Vision has a history of opening and closing markets overnight. That, with TOL's seeming disinterest in securing any kind of reputable airline service, wasn't a good combination to start out with.

I think those of us had hoped it would last a little longer than it did, which it could have with more advanced notice for vacation planners. The one take away is that they were generating around 40-45 passengers from TOL on their flights with very little effort. I would imagine G4 could do much better with their proven talent at stimulating markets once thought unheard of.
 
KarlB737
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:38 pm

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 9):
The problem with TOL is the simple fact that DTW is just up the road
Quoting toltommy (Reply 13):
Neither are in spitting distance of a major world hub.

This is one of the excuses that the TOL "administration" enjoys using to justifiy failure. In my initial post at the top I am pointing out that I am contrasting effort. All of you know that it takes effort to do your job. Repeated failure is not part of the job. The big reason I mentioned the two smaller markets MBL and APN was not because of whether they were or were not near a major hub which we all know they are not. The reason I did bring them into the discussion is specfically because of the effort they put forth. This is the main point I am trying to put across here. Many of these regional airports smaller or of equal size to TOL are putting forth strategic and a well honed effort to achieve a result regardless of whether they are near a major hub or not. They believe they are paid to do a job and achieve results and they are.

These people know that no one is going to hold them accountable for anything. The city, the local media or even local fliers never question these results in contrast to what is being achieved elsewhere.

As far as the airport itself goes I believe it can easily meet the needs of the community. TOL has a 10,600 ft., main runway and a 5599 ft., cross-wind runway. The terminal is a somewhat dated 1950ish structure however it has been remodeled a few times and contains sufficient jetways for several airlines. There is definitely a potential there if the creativity and will-power was in place.

Again, the fact that DTW is just up the road should not even be a factor or excuse in management's quest to provide air service for that airport. To do so is simply surrender pure and simple. It has never been the attitude at RFD or FNT or any other airport that happens to be near a major hub. They have historically moved forward with strategic thinking which leads to a plan which they then initiate and don't turn back but remain in forward motion. Clearly thats what is needed in this instance. Excuses shouldn't be tolerated because all that matters is results. If results aren't achieved on a repeated basis as we see in this instance than a change in leadership is in order.

[Edited 2012-06-22 08:40:56]
 
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YNGguins
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting toltommy (Reply 13):
CAK has economy of scale and years of success getting people to drive down to CAK. East side of CLE is just as far from CLE as it is from CAK. YNG area flyers are evenly split between CAK and PIT. CAK isn't run as a patronage favor to democrats like TOL is. CAK has an independant airport board and is run like a business.

This may shock some people on here, but the leakage of the YNG catchment breaks down like this:
PIT - 49%
CLE - 33%
DTW - 11%
CAK - 7%

This information will likely be available in the YNG SCASD grant once it goes up. The only logical reason for this has to be the International departures out of DTW. However contrary to popular belief, CAK gets very little of the YNG catchment area; PIT remains the dominant airport of choice, mainly because the growth of the Mahoning Valley has been to the south along 680 and I-76 which makes it an 1:10 minute drive for that portion of our area.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 15):
Some how YNG does very well to MYR on G4...but that is G4 too. Of course it is hard to embrace air service with the rapid announcement/start up timeline they did. This was nothing like when G4 swooped in right after TMA when belly up and grabbed a market that was essentially active.

What helped YNG was Vacation Express running in here and operating MYR 4x back in 2005. It was very successful and helped give Allegiant data on the market. Starting today, the YNG-MYR service expands to 4x. Last year YNG was the top Allegiant Air city in loads and yields to MYR.

Now the hope is that YNG will get service tp PGD with Allegiant this fall. I think what has helped YNG has been the fact we have stuck with Allegiant and not started service with a Direct Air or a Vision to some other cities we may want. Allegiant is mighty popular in our area and we have won back most of our AirTran leakage that went to MCO and TPA out of CAK and PIT. In some ways, the excitement around AirTran at CAK is similar to the excitement of Allegiant at YNG... even despite some of the baggage fees.

I wish TOL the very best in the future as a city and metro area that large should have a decent amount of airline service, at least in my eyes.
I am PROUD to live in the greatest country on earth: The United States of America!
 
freeze3192
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:37 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 11):

Last photo in the index was 2005.

Not sure why.

There have been plenty of photos taken of TOL in the past 7 years. A lot of on the FlyTOL facbeook page. The reason there's no updated photos is that the screeners want little to do with new photographers and getting a new photo in the database is like trying to win the lottery without buying a ticket.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 9):

The problem with TOL is the simple fact that DTW is just up the road and for parts of TOL you might actually be closer to DTW. And you can most likely fly nonstop from DTW over connecting from TOL.

Not an excuse. There are plenty of other airports close to major hubs that are able to sustain airline service with established LCCs and legacies. CAK, FNT, YNG, RFD are all prime examples.

The problem with TOL is the management. Inept, inexperienced, too busy worrying about their downtown seaport and other random clean up projects. The Port Authority has little interest in the airport as it just doesn't make enough money compared to the other projects. The PA has little knowledge of how airports are to be managed and has no idea what it takes to secure air service. What TOL needs is new management that seeks to futher the airport, not just lump along waiting for something to fall in their lap and constantly complain about the economy, fuel prices (closed below $80/bbl yesteday, btw) and airlines cutting flights. TOL needs to wake up stop making excuses.

TOL definitely has potential, it just needs the right leadership. CAK is in the same position and is thriving while TOL makes excuses.
"A passenger bets his life that his pilot is a worthy heir to an ancient tradition of excellence and professionalism."
 
toltommy
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:59 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 15):
Yes everyone drives to Detroit...but it can be reversed some. However it is going to take attractive fares and nonstop service to quality business/leisure destinations.

There's the rub. For years now, TOL has been marketed as "cheap flights to XXX". If Vision had offered $29 airfares to begin with, the flight would've been full. But instead they offered $99 airfares, and thats not cheap enough for TOL flyers. The airlines that offer service to quality business/leisure destinations want a decent return on their investment, or they'll put their planes elsewhere. At this point, can TOL show that any carrier would make more money starting service to TOL than someplace else? I've been saying this for years, and the answer has yet to change. The answer is no.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 15):
The TOL market has proven that it will support nearly 700k passengers a year...I think the last study had the total market size around 1.2-1.5M pax a year.

I don't trust those studies at all. You can draw the circle big enough to get the results you want, but it doesn't mean that customer is going to drive to TOL from GRR. A certain former air service manager at TOL was very good at drawing big unrealistic circles.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 16):
Again, the fact that DTW is just up the road should not even be a factor or excuse in management's quest to provide air service for that airport.

But sadly it is. The Port Authority has no idea what to do with the place, make a suggestion, and you'll get told "we tried that once" from the highest levels of the Port Authority.
 
jasoncrh
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:17 pm

If there were truly a market there, then airlines would be there serving it, regardless of the TOL administration and their shortcomings, period.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 16):
This is one of the excuses that the TOL "administration" enjoys using to justifiy failure. In my initial post at the top I am pointing out that I am contrasting effort. All of you know that it takes effort to do your job. Repeated failure is not part of the job. The big reason I mentioned the two smaller markets MBL and APN was not because of whether they were or were not near a major hub which we all know they are not. The reason I did bring them into the discussion is specfically because of the effort they put forth. This is the main point I am trying to put across here. Many of these regional airports smaller or of equal size to TOL are putting forth strategic and a well honed effort to achieve a result regardless of whether they are near a major hub or not. They believe they are paid to do a job and achieve results and they are.

These people know that no one is going to hold them accountable for anything. The city, the local media or even local fliers never question these results in contrast to what is being achieved elsewhere.

As far as the airport itself goes I believe it can easily meet the needs of the community. TOL has a 10,600 ft., main runway and a 5599 ft., cross-wind runway. The terminal is a somewhat dated 1950ish structure however it has been remodeled a few times and contains sufficient jetways for several airlines. There is definitely a potential there if the creativity and will-power was in place.

Again, the fact that DTW is just up the road should not even be a factor or excuse in management's quest to provide air service for that airport. To do so is simply surrender pure and simple. It has never been the attitude at RFD or FNT or any other airport that happens to be near a major hub. They have historically moved forward with strategic thinking which leads to a plan which they then initiate and don't turn back but remain in forward motion. Clearly thats what is needed in this instance. Excuses shouldn't be tolerated because all that matters is results. If results aren't achieved on a repeated basis as we see in this instance than a change in leadership is in order.
 
toltommy
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:45 pm

Quoting freeze3192 (Reply 18):
There are plenty of other airports close to major hubs that are able to sustain airline service with established LCCs and legacies. CAK, FNT, YNG, RFD are all prime examples.

Not that this is an excuse, but not exactly.

CAK is as close to major population areas in CLE. The drive from eastern suburbs of CLE to CAK takes just as long as the drive to CLE itself.

FNT is closer to the northern suburbs of DTW than DTW is, and has easier highway access. Most of metro DTW would drive past DTW to get to TOL.

RFD and YNG have not been able to sustain legacy service. RFD has done a little better than YNG, but has a much bigger population base.
 
compensateme
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:40 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 16):
Again, the fact that DTW is just up the road should not even be a factor or excuse in management's quest to provide air service for that airport. To do so is simply surrender pure and simple. It has never been the attitude at RFD or FNT

With all due respect, the position that TOL's failures are wholly to blame on a sleepy airport management team is largely a product of several overzealous a.net users.

Some of the comparisons to TOL are silly. Both TOL and RFD have Allegiant. And RFD has endured many years of failure; F9's service to DEN began barely six months ago and time will judge its performance. Some of the other airports you mention have solely EAS service whereas TOL maintains network service via AA to ORD.

And what about FNT? Sure, DL's operated M88 to ATL, but the combined NW-DL operation is operating 30% fewer capacity than it did pre-merger. AE's service to ORD has held steady at three flights after peaking at four, with little hope for the daily flight to DFW to return. And FL's recently cut a flight to ATL and is currently operating solely 717 after using the 73G nearly exclusively into FNT for several years. With the WN buyout, who knows what FNT will look like in several years. (Let's not also forget FNT lost its link to MKE after many years, although it's not surprising given the situation with F9.) And the winter vacation charters that were an emblem of FNT for many years? Gone. Sure, FNT enjoyed success for most of the 2000s, but the days of service to places like LGA are behind us.

Ultimately, you cannot blame the TOL market's willingness to drive to DTW on TOL's management. DTW will always be able to provide better schedules and more nonstop flights with lower fares than TOL. And it's less than an hour away for most of the market. Sure beats sitting in ATL for two...
Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
 
KDAYflyer
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:56 pm

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 9):
The problem with TOL is the simple fact that DTW is just up the road and for parts of TOL you might actually be closer to DTW. And you can most likely fly nonstop from DTW over connecting from TOL.


I see this as the fundamental problem for any airline serving TOL.
 
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enilria
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:02 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 12):
f that service is working, they should worry more about keeping a proven carrier like G4 than the likes of Direct Air

Very true.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 13):
CAK has economy of scale and years of success getting people to drive down to CAK. East side of CLE is just as far from CLE as it is from CAK.
Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 15):
TOL can be very successful in its own right, but it is going to take the proper approach to capture the market.
Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 16):
Again, the fact that DTW is just up the road should not even be a factor or excuse in management's quest to provide air service for that airport.
Quoting toltommy (Reply 21):
FNT is closer to the northern suburbs of DTW than DTW is, and has easier highway access. Most of metro DTW would drive past DTW to get to TOL.

The real problem for TOL is that there is absolutely nothing on I-75/275 South of the DL mega hub. It is just open land within a mile of the airport. Thus, there is really nothing for TOL to draw from. The geography just doesn't work. Being on the South end of town just makes it that much easier to draw from TOL. It's part of why FNT exists. It has the opposite situation, where it is marginally closer to some areas.
 
freeze3192
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:04 am

RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:23 pm

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 20):

Thanks for your great input concerning the subject matter. Hows life at 1 Maritime Plaza?

[Edited 2012-06-22 12:24:12]
"A passenger bets his life that his pilot is a worthy heir to an ancient tradition of excellence and professionalism."
 
KarlB737
Topic Author
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:28 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 22):
the position that TOL's failures are wholly to blame on a sleepy airport management team is largely a product of several overzealous a.net users.



"Several" people can't all be wrong.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 22):
RFD has endured many years of failure; F9's service to DEN began barely six months ago and time will judge its performance. Some of the other airports you mention have solely EAS service whereas TOL maintains network service via AA to ORD.



If you return to my Reply 16 to the first paragraph you will also note that I said this:

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 16):
The reason I did bring them into the discussion is specifically because of the effort they put forth. This is the main point I am trying to put across here. Many of these regional airports smaller or of equal size to TOL are putting forth strategic and a well honed effort to achieve a result regardless of whether they are near a major hub or not. They believe they are paid to do a job and achieve results and they are.



One of the things I am trying to show here is what I will call a contrast in effort. Simply stated I am saying that these other airports are putting forth a significant effort with favorable results. TOL on the other hand waits for an airline to show up because they don't want to put forth an effort and the result is there for everyone to see.

I will cite a recent example. Recently when Direct Air abruptly folded RFD acquired replacement air service for Direct Air in approximately 36 hours. TOL let their passengers slide into the quicksand. We're talking specifically about an attitude as well as effort put forth.

Yes, you are correct in stating that both FNT and RFD have lost air service but the difference is they get right back up on their feet regardless of what airport may be near them or not and PURSUE new air service whether it be EAS service or regular unfunded air service. MBL lost the only air service they had and got another in about a month. This is the big contrast in effort that I am primarily speaking about.

Thanks CompensateMe for your comments.
 
toltommy
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:29 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 22):
With all due respect, the position that TOL's failures are wholly to blame on a sleepy airport management team is largely a product of several overzealous a.net users.

Have you ever met any of the Toledo Port Authority brain trust? It's nothing but patronage, and the airport is an afterthought. The "airport committee" of the Port Authority board is a symbol of everything wrong after 40 years of basically one party rule here.

There a few people here who can think outside the box, both in TOL and on A.net. My thought is this:

Spirit has a very effective marketing machine. Classy? No. Effective, yes. The Port has no idea how to grow the airport. It's got a great runway to fly anywhere in the US. Why not offer Spirit a deal they can't refuse to move their operation from DTW to TOL. Heck, give them the terminal to manage. They'd have to make the terminal available to other carriers, but give them the building, the parking, and concessions. Then let them unleash their marketing machine and reinvent TOL as "Detroit-South". Could Toledo do worse?
 
compensateme
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:33 am

Quoting toltommy (Reply 27):
Have you ever met any of the Toledo Port Authority brain trust?
Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 26):
"Several" people can't all be wrong.

While I personally have never conversed with any current or previous member of the Toledo Port Authority, I have heard many positive things about the Port Authority's efforts from some of my colleagues. While hearsay, I do trust their judgement. The negativity primarily exists among several zealous a.net posters.

And here's an illustration of the problem:

Quoting toltommy (Reply 27):
Why not offer Spirit a deal they can't refuse to move their operation from DTW to TOL.

With all due respect... we already know that a very, very high percentage of the TOL market is willing to drive to DTW. Do you know what percentage of the DTW market is willing to drive to TOL? Even with NK's best marketing effort, it's not going to be that high. Ultimately, NK would have a slimmer operation with fewer passengers serving TOL (and Allegiant would likely withdraw from the market). NK gets less revenue and TOL-area passengers get fewer options, although closer to home. Who would this appease other than a few TOL fanboys whose local airport would now have more service?

I only bring this up because the TOL fanbase wants its airport to do something drastic to attract local service. The problem is, the scenarios are unattractive and unrealistic.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 26):
I will cite a recent example. Recently when Direct Air abruptly folded RFD acquired replacement air service for Direct Air in approximately 36 hours. TOL let their passengers slide into the quicksand. We're talking specifically about an attitude as well as effort put forth.

TOL may have very well exhausted its options, but with DTW less than an hour away, nobody was willing to come. Don't assume.  
Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 26):
Yes, you are correct in stating that both FNT and RFD have lost air service but the difference is they get right back up on their feet regardless of what airport may be near them or not and PURSUE new air service whether it be EAS service or regular unfunded air service.

*FNT continues to lose service, and while the airport has yet to fall on its feet, it certainly hasn't found replacements.
*For many years, RFD has offered costly subsidies to attract service. Every single operator, sans Allegiant, has ceased operations once the subsidies expired. Hardly more successful than TOL.
*And with AA still serving TOL, it does not qualify for EAS.
Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:35 am

I don't understand how so many armchair airport execs get on here and beat TOL up. You can give an airline all the gold in the world and perform all the ritualistic Mayan sacrifice you want, but you CAN'T make any airline do anything. Often times, no amount of persuasion will lead to a new airline or a new route. You can knock at someones door for years and all you get is a bill for the dent repairs.

TOL has a 1,000lb gorilla in its back yard, often referred to as DTW, that is not only a national/world gateway for DL, but a strong focus for our nations lowest cost and cheapest airline to fly. They also have a token WN presence, but with DL's network and NK's fares popular destinations, WN isn't even a relevant part of the equation.

TOL has AA and G4. Who else should be flying there, really? Should DL toss a couple of RJ's at DTW that might not even get a chance to accelerate to 250? AA seems to make it work, but could just as easily pull it and say " we serve TOL from DTW ". TOL is fortunate to have AA and G4. They've tried Direct and Vision (who I would never blame an airport for losing).

Economics and metrics of the industry have changed drastically since the days TOL had substantial service from multiple carriers. They are a classic "victim of the system" as it currently stands.
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4113
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:22 am

Quoting YNGguins (Reply 17):
What helped YNG was Vacation Express running in here and operating MYR 4x back in 2005. It was very successful and helped give Allegiant data on the market. Starting today, the YNG-MYR service expands to 4x. Last year YNG was the top Allegiant Air city in loads and yields to MYR.

So a similar situation with G4 on TOL to Vegas and Sanford. TMA had the market active and G4 was able to take it over pretty well.

Quoting JasonCRH (Reply 20):
If there were truly a market there, then airlines would be there serving it, regardless of the TOL administration and their shortcomings, period.

Delta and AirTran proved that TOL-ATL is a market that would produce well over 200 pax per day. Yet no one flies it anymore. There is a market, it is just about having the right service and dedication to support it. Like Tommy said though, right now Toledo is brainwashed into chasing the cheapest fare and get sticker shock if TOL isn't always the lowest.

Perhaps you can contribute more to the discussion next time. LOL

Quoting enilria (Reply 24):
The real problem for TOL is that there is absolutely nothing on I-75/275 South of the DL mega hub. It is just open land within a mile of the airport. Thus, there is really nothing for TOL to draw from. The geography just doesn't work. Being on the South end of town just makes it that much easier to draw from TOL. It's part of why FNT exists. It has the opposite situation, where it is marginally closer to some areas.

The poor people in Monroe are wondering why you erased their city. LOL Perhaps the actual answer to everything shouldn't be how to draw more from the Detroit Metro Area, but how to ensure they capture the areas where TOL is a closer drive than DTW, FWA, DAY, CMH, and CLE.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 27):
Spirit has a very effective marketing machine. Classy? No. Effective, yes. The Port has no idea how to grow the airport. It's got a great runway to fly anywhere in the US. Why not offer Spirit a deal they can't refuse to move their operation from DTW to TOL. Heck, give them the terminal to manage. They'd have to make the terminal available to other carriers, but give them the building, the parking, and concessions. Then let them unleash their marketing machine and reinvent TOL as "Detroit-South". Could Toledo do worse?

Sometimes the craziest ideas are the best ones.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 28):
While I personally have never conversed with any current or previous member of the Toledo Port Authority, I have heard many positive things about the Port Authority's efforts from some of my colleagues. While hearsay, I do trust their judgement. The negativity primarily exists among several zealous a.net posters.

In order to have a true understanding you'll need to educate yourself more on the local environment in Toledo and the history. Honestly industry professionals typically aren't going to bad mouth others if they may have some use of them later on. Politics 101.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 28):
With all due respect... we already know that a very, very high percentage of the TOL market is willing to drive to DTW. Do you know what percentage of the DTW market is willing to drive to TOL? Even with NK's best marketing effort, it's not going to be that high. Ultimately, NK would have a slimmer operation with fewer passengers serving TOL (and Allegiant would likely withdraw from the market). NK gets less revenue and TOL-area passengers get fewer options, although closer to home. Who would this appease other than a few TOL fanboys whose local airport would now have more service?

I only bring this up because the TOL fanbase wants its airport to do something drastic to attract local service. The problem is, the scenarios are unattractive and unrealistic.

Passengers in Oklahoma City right now will drive to Dallas for an air fare $50 cheaper. People in Detroit, a much worse off economy than booming OKC (with 4% unemployment) will drive to get the lower air fares. Delta isn't going to match those air fares ones Spirit leaves DTW and therefore SkyMilers will need to pay more than they do now. To me that is a pretty realistic expectation...whether we are talking about Spirit moving ops to TOL, LAN or FNT.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 28):
TOL may have very well exhausted its options, but with DTW less than an hour away, nobody was willing to come. Don't assume.

Can't touch this one right now. Ask again later.  
Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 29):
Who else should be flying there, really? Should DL toss a couple of RJ's at DTW

Really the first target I would have would be United to IAD to connect the east. Let AA handle the west. G4 can fill in the other leisure markets as they see fit.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 29):
AA seems to make it work, but could just as easily pull it and say " we serve TOL from DTW ". TOL is fortunate to have AA and G4.

Luckily TOL is the 14th highest yielding station for AA, so no worries about that right now.  
 
KarlB737
Topic Author
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 28):
I have heard many positive things about the Port Authority's efforts from some of my colleagues. While hearsay, I do trust their judgement. The negativity primarily exists among several zealous a.net posters.

"With all due respect" I am bewildered that you trust "hearsay" yet push aside repeated failures. I'll tell you what how about asking your "colleagues" how this airport administration lost AirTran twice.

The negativity primarily exists because obvious repeated failure is being tolerated. If any of us did our job like they pretend to do we would be terminated.

By the way thanks to all of you who are posting and inserting your thoughts.
 
KarlB737
Topic Author
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
There is now a high possibility that APN will acquire better air service than they had because of the hard work that they are doing to pursue air service.

Straight from The Alpena News. Skywest will provide CRJ service to both DTW & MSP. And look it appears that the community was involved -- what a concept. I guess APN chose not to give up -- what a contrast in effort.

DOT Picks SkyWest

"SkyWest beat out three other bidders in the fouth and final round of bidding to be the new carrier. After overwhelming support was expressed to the federal government by the local community, the department named the airline as Delta's successor."

"We found interest almost everywhere we went and with everyone we talked to, and we were always optimistic that if given enough time we could get someone to come here," Waligora said."

http://www.thealpenanews.com/page/co...21/DOT-picks-SkyWest.html?nav=5004
 
compensateme
Posts: 1633
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:15 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 32):
Straight from The Alpena News. Skywest will provide CRJ service to both DTW & MSP. And look it appears that the community was involved -- what a concept. I guess APN chose not to give up -- what a contrast in effort.

Alpena's in the middle of nowhere; much of Toledo is closer to DTW than DTW's furthest suberbs.

And we're discussing EAS service. If TOL lost its scheduled service, there would unquestionably be interest among carriers in serving the market with an EAS subsidy. It's an unfair comparision.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 31):
"With all due respect" I am bewildered that you trust "hearsay" yet push aside repeated failures. I'll tell you what how about asking your "colleagues" how this airport administration lost AirTran twice.

And I'm bewildered that you blame the repeated failures on airport management. When FL served TOL (the second time), the market was stimulated but at unsustainable fares, and yet FL's loads still sucked.

What's airport management suppose to do? Pass a law that requires Toledo residents to fly from TOL or pay heavy penalties when using DTW?
Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
 
KarlB737
Topic Author
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:56 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 33):
Alpena's in the middle of nowhere; much of Toledo is closer to DTW than DTW's furthest suberbs.



CompensateMe you're still missing the main point. My main post is simply this: I am contrasting an effort. Take the size of the city and nearness to a hub out of the equation for a moment.

An effort and a result.

No effort no result.

I have been following this APN thing just out of curiosity. I have read (and you can to) read every story on their struggle. Remember that if they lose Delta they have nothing. This has been their only airline. What I have noted is that many people had to jump in to climb this mountain. Eventually they decided to get the Mayor of the city involved as well. The community was starting to react knowing that the Delta service that they got used to was going to pull out. The situation was bleak at best. They knew that Delta was going to keep flying to PLN. They became aware that MBL was going to get a charter service to MDW. For a while they thought that they might have to go that route.

They asked SkyWest if they would "piggyback" the flight that goes to MKG to come to APN. SkyWest chose not to do that.

What they ended up doing after they weren't happy with the bids they had received was to ask DOT for an additional round. They didn't even know if DOT was going to grant them an additional round of bids. DOT gave the OK on the fourth round and they got four bids. One of them offered by SkyWest to fly from APN to DTW and APN to MSP is nothing short of a miracle. And now DOT has approved that bid but as I am trying to share with you as clearly as I can I am talking about the effort to get there. I think my APN story here gives you a glimpse of the effort it took to get a good air service result. That CompensateMe is the main point I am trying to get across to you good buddy. And this APN example is just one of many that shows how much effort it takes and I am not convinced that TOL is motivated to put forth that kind of effort regardless of any surrounding circumstances.
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:33 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 32):
Straight from The Alpena News. Skywest will provide CRJ service to both DTW & MSP. And look it appears that the community was involved -- what a concept. I guess APN chose not to give up -- what a contrast in effort.

You compare TOL to an EAS city? I guess BKW admin and their 4 pax per flight over to IAD are doing an excellent job too.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 30):
Really the first target I would have would be United to IAD to connect the east. Let AA handle the west. G4 can fill in the other leisure markets as they see fit.

United " We serve TOL from Detroit". Next target?

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 34):
And this APN example is just one of many that shows how much effort it takes and I am not convinced that TOL is motivated to put forth that kind of effort regardless of any surrounding circumstances.

I guess I'm wondering... what's your burden of proof that TOL isn't out there trying just like most other airports?
 
toltommy
Posts: 2496
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:04 am

RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 33):
If TOL lost its scheduled service, there would unquestionably be interest among carriers in serving the market with an EAS subsidy

There would be no EAS subsidy at TOL. It's far too close to DTW to qualify.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 33):
Pass a law that requires Toledo residents to fly from TOL or pay heavy penalties when using DTW?

Shhhhh don't say that out loud. Toledo city council is always looking for something new to tax!

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 30):
Luckily TOL is the 14th highest yielding station for AA, so no worries about that right now

Is that with or without the $200k subsidy from the Port for the 4th ORD flight? Might be high yielding, but it doesn't generate much revenue with only a max of 200 seats a day. Nothing is guaranteed with AA right now. A lot depands on who owns the comapny down the road and if they can get larger regional aircraft in the fleet.
 
compensateme
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:06 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 34):
That CompensateMe is the main point I am trying to get across to you good buddy. And this APN example is just one of many that shows how much effort it takes and I am not convinced that TOL is motivated to put forth that kind of effort regardless of any surrounding circumstances.

Let's try another approach:

Since the turn of the Millenium, among major airlines, TOL has had, and subsequently lost, service from Continental (ended in 2001), AirTran (2002), US Airways (2004), ATA (2005), Delta (2008), a second Continental stint (2008) and post-merger DL (2011).

Let's take a more in-depth look at AirTran's service: FL served TOL during economic boom years and before 9/11, it gave the community notice that despite full planes, it wasn't receiving the right fare mix to keep the service viable. The airport agressively saught pledges from local businesses and offered to extend deep discounts on airport fees to FL, but alas, it wasn't successful. Ultimately, the airport spent in excess of $100,000 in marketing AirTran's service.

Even successes, like TransMeridian (which ended service in 2005, when the airline went bust) and Allegiant, have been limited. Both airlines heavily slashed frequency and Allegiant cancelled LAS.

So my question for you is, what do you expect from the airport authority? It's spent hundreds of thousands of dollars attracting and marketing services, but alas the community continues to support DTW more (TOL-MSP had a 30% LF at the time of its cancellation), only traveling from TOL when the fare's significantly cheaper.

When FL began DTW several years ago, there was an uproar from the TOL faithful that the airport wasn't able to attract its service. Yet FL had endured two failures in TOL and found immediate success in DTW (although much of its service was subsequently cancelled during the Great Recession) -- do you believe FL regrets its decision?

RDF has had more miserable faiures than TOL, yet you're claiming it as a success. Its biggest break was the success of Apple Vacations' service, which ultimiatelty lead to F9 beginning scheduled service to DEN. Obtaining Apple Vacations at TOL would be a monumental task, as the airport lacks a FIS facility and is in quick proximity of DTW and CLE, thus necessitating a substational premium to make the service successful. History tells us that's unlikely to happen.

The problem is that TOL has a strong fan base on a.net, and many have unrealistic expections. They believe (and I'm only slightly embellishing) that because the airport authority wasn't successful in getting NW to build its new WorldGateway in TOL, that the airport authority isn't successful. Yet it's attracted service. The problem is, people aren't utilizing at fares to keep it sustainable.

[Edited 2012-06-23 16:07:48]
Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4113
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:32 am

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 33):
And I'm bewildered that you blame the repeated failures on airport management. When FL served TOL (the second time), the market was stimulated but at unsustainable fares, and yet FL's loads still sucked.

So do you work for Sixel Consulting? LOL That brilliant firm that has handled air service development since they eliminated the internal development position? Something smells fishy about your continued defense of management team that has continued failures on its resume.

FL's loads during the last quarter of service were 73% if I remember right. They did claim the biggest issue was not filling the front cabin enough. The problem there, and this was highlighted in a Blade article yesterday, is that the corporate community that committed to the travel bank to save AirTran still booked people on Delta and never switched. People loved them their SkyMiles they they built up over the decades.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 35):
United " We serve TOL from Detroit". Next target?

Positions can change over time. Don't be too shocked to see the UA brand back in TOL eventually.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 36):
Shhhhh don't say that out loud. Toledo city council is always looking for something new to tax!

I would be happy if they would at least require city employees to use TOL over DTW if the air fare is lower - regardless of time advantage. Lead by example. Not to mention save the city budget some money.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 37):
Since the turn of the Millenium, among major airlines, TOL has had, and subsequently lost, service from Continental (ended in 2001), AirTran (2002), US Airways (2004), ATA (2005), Delta (2008), a second Continental stint (2008) and post-merger DL (2011).

All of which had independently unique situations to. However, they all exhibit services that could have been retained - except ATA which just flat out went away. US Airways was killed off by the continue degradation of service by switching from 100% mainline to a mix to TSA to Shuttle America. Shuttle's reliability was horrible and something I personally discussed with Scott Durgin (then CEO) about at length. Unfortunately the market was killed, CPs were pissed off, and there was no hope to transition to PHL or CLT.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 37):
The airport agressively saught pledges from local businesses and offered to extend deep discounts on airport fees to FL, but alas, it wasn't successful. Ultimately, the airport spent in excess of $100,000 in marketing AirTran's service.

See earlier comments.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 37):
Even successes, like TransMeridian (which ended service in 2005, when the airline went bust) and Allegiant, have been limited. Both airlines heavily slashed frequency and Allegiant cancelled LAS.

TOL was one of their better performing stations. The strength of the market is why G4 jumped in almost immediately when TMA folded. The cancellation of LAS wasn't limited to TOL in terms of Eastern cities.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 37):
So my question for you is, what do you expect from the airport authority? It's spent hundreds of thousands of dollars attracting and marketing services, but alas the community continues to support DTW more (TOL-MSP had a 30% LF at the time of its cancellation), only traveling from TOL when the fare's significantly cheaper.

TOL-MSP was a sham and you know it. If DL really wanted to retain the market they would have reintroduced ATL - a proven market of the past - and not MSP with limited appeal to eastern/southern connections.
 
KarlB737
Topic Author
Posts: 2635
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:03 pm

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 35):
I guess I'm wondering... what's your burden of proof that TOL isn't out there trying just like most other airports?



Kcrwflyer if only a couple of isolated cases of airlines were lost questions might be asked. Maybe a few management types might sit around at a table and make recommentations and essentially regroup. This is not the case here. Like I said at the forfront "In what has become a repeating predictable sequence of events.........." Thats the big difference.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 33):
And I'm bewildered that you blame the repeated failures
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 37):
Since the turn of the Millenium, among major airlines, TOL has had, and subsequently lost, service from Continental (ended in 2001), AirTran (2002), US Airways (2004), ATA (2005), Delta (2008), a second Continental stint (2008) and post-merger DL (2011).



Well at least now you admit that there have been "repeated failures". Thanks also for providing the list as well.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 35):
You compare TOL to an EAS city?



OK, lets take all the other comparison cities and airports out of the equation. That will also eliminate the EAS ingredient as well.

This will bring us down to just a job and a result. As all of you know a job includes responsibilities which produce a result. In your experience what happens when a failure or two occurs? Questions may be asked followed by expected explainations. A punishment may or may not be inserted. A warning may also be attached. But if the failure keeps happening maybe the employee will have to be replaced if the results EXPECTED are not being achieved.

It's your serve as I have now boiled this down to its most basic and elementary level.
 
jasoncrh
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:54 pm

Okay, then. Seriously, derision is not needed nor is it respectful.

If there were a market, at a fare high enough, and if an airline had no better opportunity than that market, then there would be service there.

Get over it.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 30):
Delta and AirTran proved that TOL-ATL is a market that would produce well over 200 pax per day. Yet no one flies it anymore. There is a market, it is just about having the right service and dedication to support it. Like Tommy said though, right now Toledo is brainwashed into chasing the cheapest fare and get sticker shock if TOL isn't always the lowest.

Perhaps you can contribute more to the discussion next time. LOL
 
F9Animal
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:25 pm

Am I the only one frustrated at how Vision operates? Who in their right mind could trust booking on them with a reputation of pulling out just as fast as they came in? Who really owns Vision, and what is their vision? It seems like a confused carrier, throwing darts at a map!
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
compensateme
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RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:42 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 38):
Something smells fishy about your continued defense of management team that has continued failures on its resume.
Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 39):
Well at least now you admit that there have been "repeated failures"

TOL's management HAS been successful in attracting and marketing new service. I'll ask again: what do you want (expect) the Port Authority to do, pass a law the forces heavy penalties on travelers who choose DTW?

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 38):
I would be happy if they would at least require city employees to use TOL over DTW if the air fare is lower - regardless of time advantage. Lead by example. Not to mention save the city budget some money.

Time is money and needs to be considered.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 38):
All of which had independently unique situations to. However, they all exhibit services that could have been retained...

The only thing unique to these situations was that the TOL market was unable to deliver the revenue necessary for success. The fact that FL was able to stimulate the market to 200+ to ATL means nothing unless they were able to do so profitably. And fuel is 3x today what it was then.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 38):
TOL was one of their better performing stations. The strength of the market is why G4 jumped in almost immediately when TMA folded. The cancellation of LAS wasn't limited to TOL in terms of Eastern cities.

"Better performing station" isn't saying much. They had slashed service and were offering cheap fares (RT$100 to Las Vegas) shortly before their demise. G4's remained stagnant at TOL while growing elsewhere in the East.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 38):
TOL-MSP was a sham and you know it. If DL really wanted to retain the market they would have reintroduced ATL - a proven market of the past - and not MSP with limited appeal to eastern/southern connections.

Why would DL re-attempt TOL-ATL when they had just cancelled the route two years earlier? Proven money-losing market, obviously.

xxx

Attracting new legacy service to TOL will be a challenge. You suggested IAD, but IAD's a high-fare market and for many passengers, whatever time's saved traveling to/from TOL will be wasted traveling to/from the DC-area when they could've flown from a menu of up to 12 flights between DL & US to DCA from DTW. In order for IAD to be successful, TOL would have to deliver high-revenue passengers currently not flying UA who'd mainly be connecting to shot hops in the East. For many of these passengers, an array of choices from DTW will supersede the convenience of TOL, especially with a limited schedule.

You complain about airport management, but it HAS attracted service. It provided guarantees to get an additional AA flight to ORD. It tried to get NYC service. It's probably offered incentives to G4. How is it management's fault that the market continues to prefer DTW?

Citing the airport's inability to attract NK's DTW operation (which has been tossed around here many times over the years) is ridiculous. Much of the traffic flowing from the central/northern suburbs of Detroit isn't going to make a 2-3 hour drive to TOL when there's other adequate low-cost service. Not to mention that much of NK's service is bundled with tour packages -- what's Funjet going to do, rent billboards in Pontiac, Rochester Hills, Lake Orion, etc. (as they often do) advertising packages from TOL?

Don't get me wrong, I think the demise of TOL is sad. But I also think it's wrong to blame the airport when it's tried, but the market hasn't responded.
Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
 
freeze3192
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:04 am

RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:21 am

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 42):

TOL's management HAS been successful in attracting and marketing new service. I'll ask again: what do you want (expect) the Port Authority to do, pass a law the forces heavy penalties on travelers who choose DTW?

And what new service is that? Last time I checked, we're still down to Eagle and Allegiant. Vision doesn't count because they came to TOL, not the other way around. DirectAir? Okay, great that was four years ago.

The Port Authority's solution to everything is to throw money at the problem like it's going out of style and when it fails, say "welp, we tried..guess it must be the oil prices again combined with our poor economy combined with DTW".

Which by the way, oil prices are below $80/bbl right now, I'm pretty sure it's time to stop using that excuse.

What the Port is missing is the HUMAN interaction. The ability to lift a finger to attract customers and service to the airport. Okay, so they started a Facebook page, great. But HIRE someone who is an expert on social media to design and create the page so it is viewed favorably throughout the community. Don't just pull some secretary for one of the Port's board of directors and tell them to create a Facebook page for the airport. Hire someone who knows what they hell they're doing in social media. HIRE someone who knows what they hell they're doing to attract new air service. HIRE someone who knows how to generate community interest in the airport. The good ole boys on the board may know which politicians in town to schmooze and how to run a business but they sure as hell don't know how to run an airport. These guys are basically standing in a dark room trying to throw darts. I've seen it firsthand myself. One example, a few years back the management decided to cut costs by not keeping an airport maintenance person at the airport overnight. So what happens? It snows a little bit overnight just enough where the runways and taxiways need to be broomed before aircraft can depart. Back when we had several departures in the morning, all of the planes sat at the gate until the tower was able to get someone out of bed at port to come in and clear the runways.



Here's what I wish would happen - The Port Authority admits that they have been defeated in this running an airport thing, and let someone who knows what they're doing run the airport. Like a private investment firm. Something has to give. Something has to change.

I'm starting to think that you're down at Maritime Plaza too. I hope you and your port buddies are having a good time right now, because sooner or later the airport is going to be gone because a lack of competent management.
"A passenger bets his life that his pilot is a worthy heir to an ancient tradition of excellence and professionalism."
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4113
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:54 am

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 42):
TOL's management HAS been successful in attracting and marketing new service. I'll ask again: what do you want (expect) the Port Authority to do, pass a law the forces heavy penalties on travelers who choose DTW?

For the sake of full disclosure, and since you avoided that question, please state here what your relationship is to the Toledo Lucas County Port Authority, City of Toledo, or any consulting group that has been linked with TOL. It is obvious you are pulling information from some past/current knowledge so it would only be fair if you disclosed yourself instead of playing this amazing game of defense of the Port.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 42):
Time is money and needs to be considered.

Agreed. I also believe on a recent trip to China by the Toledo delegation, those they went via TOL arrived earlier than those that went nonstop from DTW.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 42):
"Better performing station" isn't saying much. They had slashed service and were offering cheap fares (RT$100 to Las Vegas) shortly before their demise. G4's remained stagnant at TOL while growing elsewhere in the East.

G4 also found themselves competing against WN, NK, and NW initially which they weren't use to in most of their smaller markets. They had to adapt. Also fuel prices helped kill most anything from LAS in the Eastern time zone.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 42):
Why would DL re-attempt TOL-ATL when they had just cancelled the route two years earlier? Proven money-losing market, obviously.

Well lets look at how the market evolved for Delta. Ignoring everything 1980 and earlier, TOL-ATL was pretty static a 3 daily flights market. One of flights during this time either stopped in CVG (earlier) or FWA (later). When mainline was getting axed left and right to smaller markets they still maintained 3 daily flights and eventually took it 4 daily. Then fuel came into play some. They kept pulling the market down until it was down to a single mid-day departure. A HORRIBLE schedule for passengers wanting to fly through ATL. Instead they wanted to force people through CVG which was about to get slaughtered due to high costs of RJs. You can sit back and blame pax not paying enough all you want, but scheduling also has to take the blame too. You can effectively schedule a market's demise by screwing with times too much.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 42):
You suggested IAD, but IAD's a high-fare market and for many passengers, whatever time's saved traveling to/from TOL will be wasted traveling to/from the DC-area when they could've flown from a menu of up to 12 flights between DL & US to DCA from DTW. In order for IAD to be successful, TOL would have to deliver high-revenue passengers currently not flying UA who'd mainly be connecting to shot hops in the East. For many of these passengers, an array of choices from DTW will supersede the convenience of TOL, especially with a limited schedule.

I would imagine UA to IAD would be much like AA to ORD. It would be serving passengers traveling TO TOL, versus worrying about the local TOL outbound market. AA has proven to be able to deliver high revenue passengers by having TOL as a destination for business passengers.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 42):
Citing the airport's inability to attract NK's DTW operation (which has been tossed around here many times over the years) is ridiculous. Much of the traffic flowing from the central/northern suburbs of Detroit isn't going to make a 2-3 hour drive to TOL when there's other adequate low-cost service. Not to mention that much of NK's service is bundled with tour packages -- what's Funjet going to do, rent billboards in Pontiac, Rochester Hills, Lake Orion, etc. (as they often do) advertising packages from TOL?

Umm what? No one is citing the airport's inability to attract NK's DTW operation. I doubt the Port has even looked at it. It is mainly just off the wall/out of the box ideas on the magnitude of what may be needed to firmly right the ship. Perhaps you are misreading a lot of comments or just interpreting it completely wrong.

Quoting freeze3192 (Reply 43):
What the Port is missing is the HUMAN interaction. The ability to lift a finger to attract customers and service to the airport. Okay, so they started a Facebook page, great. But HIRE someone who is an expert on social media to design and create the page so it is viewed favorably throughout the community. Don't just pull some secretary for one of the Port's board of directors and tell them to create a Facebook page for the airport. Hire someone who knows what they hell they're doing in social media. HIRE someone who knows what they hell they're doing to attract new air service. HIRE someone who knows how to generate community interest in the airport. The good ole boys on the board may know which politicians in town to schmooze and how to run a business but they sure as hell don't know how to run an airport. These guys are basically standing in a dark room trying to throw darts. I've seen it firsthand myself. One example, a few years back the management decided to cut costs by not keeping an airport maintenance person at the airport overnight. So what happens? It snows a little bit overnight just enough where the runways and taxiways need to be broomed before aircraft can depart. Back when we had several departures in the morning, all of the planes sat at the gate until the tower was able to get someone out of bed at port to come in and clear the runways.

+1

Quoting freeze3192 (Reply 43):
I'm starting to think that you're down at Maritime Plaza too. I hope you and your port buddies are having a good time right now, because sooner or later the airport is going to be gone because a lack of competent management.

Mmmhmm. Something a bit too familiar about this one.
 
michman
Posts: 614
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:51 am

RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:12 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 44):
Agreed. I also believe on a recent trip to China by the Toledo delegation, those they went via TOL arrived earlier than those that went nonstop from DTW.

How does an anecdotal example of a single flight prove anything? Yes, there may be some cases were TOL can offer more convenient scheduling through the AA ORD hub than utilizing DTW. But in the vast majority of cases, that is certainly not true.
 
toltommy
Posts: 2496
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:04 am

RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:38 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 44):
I doubt the Port has even looked at it. It is mainly just off the wall/out of the box ideas on the magnitude of what may be needed to firmly right the ship.
Quoting freeze3192 (Reply 43):
Here's what I wish would happen - The Port Authority admits that they have been defeated in this running an airport thing, and let someone who knows what they're doing run the airport. Like a private investment firm. Something has to give. Something has to change.

Here's what it comes down to. The Toledo Port Authority is political. Population is leaving the city and fleeing to the suburbs of Lucas County, or to Wood County Ohio or southern Monroe County Michigan. Toledo has been run by Democrats for 40 years. The areas people are moving to are swing vote areas at best, or more Republican. So there's now an effort to change how the county government is structured, making it larger and able to structure districts in order to elect more Democrats to a bigger Lucas County Government. That being said, there is no way the current brain trust at the Port Authority is goiing to admit defeat, or even look at outside the box ideas that may cause them to lose control of the airport. There's union jobs at the airport, and their power relies on keeping the unions happy. And to be honest, the Port Authority folks live pretty big on the taxpayer funds. I see sertain members of the PA board sitting in the season ticket seats for the Toledo MudHens, and at community fundraiser events like ZooToDo at the Toledo Zoo.

The market is limited at TOL because of proximity to DTW. But there is more market than currently uses the airport. But there's no interest in growing it if it means the Port Board and "Airport Committee" loses power to make it happen.
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4113
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:39 pm

Quoting michman (Reply 45):
How does an anecdotal example of a single flight prove anything? Yes, there may be some cases were TOL can offer more convenient scheduling through the AA ORD hub than utilizing DTW. But in the vast majority of cases, that is certainly not true.

Someone is pretty defensive. Here let me explain my point a bit further since I apparently offended your beloved DTW. It was to point out it should not be immediately assumed that going through DTW is always going to faster for TOL based passengers. It was to point that the default thinking DTW is always better is not always the case. I'm sure we could get more examples, but this is one in the media right now. It was also a trip of all Toledo politicians that were traveling and only the Port Authority leaders went via TOL and AA. The rest went via DL and DTW and arrived later and paid more. It is about doing proper research, especially when it comes to community leaders spending tax payer dollars.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 46):
The Toledo Port Authority is political. Population is leaving the city and fleeing to the suburbs of Lucas County, or to Wood County Ohio or southern Monroe County Michigan. Toledo has been run by Democrats for 40 years. The areas people are moving to are swing vote areas at best, or more Republican. So there's now an effort to change how the county government is structured, making it larger and able to structure districts in order to elect more Democrats to a bigger Lucas County Government.

Agreed. I hate single party rule and it has kept Toledo locked down. It almost seems that the Port would be more effective if it required the seats to be broken up by additional communities/counties instead of just Toledo and Lucas County.
 
toltommy
Posts: 2496
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:04 am

RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:37 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 47):
It almost seems that the Port would be more effective if it required the seats to be broken up by additional communities/counties instead of just Toledo and Lucas County.

It probably would be better to be a "Northwest Ohio Port Authority", but again it means that the entrenched power in Lucas County would have to likely give something up. Can you imagine the tantrums of certain figures when they realized the Lucas County vote on the board could be balanced by Fulton County? Or better yet cancelled by combined votes of Fulton and Ottawa Counties? Who would pay for their car leases and club memberships? Oh the horror.....
                 

However, it is ironic when you look at CAK. CAK is on the county line between Summit (Akron) and Stark (Canton) counties. There is equal representation from both counties on the board, resulting an even number of members. They have to agree in order to get anything done. Seems to work.....
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4113
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: Vision Pulls Out Of TOL After Less Than A Month

Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting toltommy (Reply 48):
It probably would be better to be a "Northwest Ohio Port Authority", but again it means that the entrenched power in Lucas County would have to likely give something up. Can you imagine the tantrums of certain figures when they realized the Lucas County vote on the board could be balanced by Fulton County? Or better yet cancelled by combined votes of Fulton and Ottawa Counties? Who would pay for their car leases and club memberships? Oh the horror.....

Oh if only Carty was still around, I would love to see the tantrum he would throw.  

Looking at the list of people on the board, exactly which one has transportation experience? LOL

Chairman
William J. Carroll - Highland Jebco

Vice Chairman
Nadeem S. Salem - Salem Wealth Solutions
Jerry Chabler - Jerry Chabler & Associates - (Airport Committee Chair)
Bernard H. "Pete" Culp - Retired Administrator
Margarita De Leon - BRAVO Magazine
Richard P. Gabel - International Longshoremen’s Union
Dr. Lloyd A. Jacobs - The University of Toledo
Andrea R. Price - Mercy, Northern Region
G. Opie Rollison - Marshall & Melhorn
Sharon Speyer - Huntington Bank
A. Bailey Stanbery - Stanbery Homes, Inc. - (Airport Committee Member)
John S. Szuch - Signature Bank, N.A.
James M. Tuschman - Of Counsel, Barkan & Robon Ltd. - (Airport Committee Member)

Would love to see this broken up to have 7 reps from Lucas County, 2 from Fulton County, 2 from Wood County, and 2 from Ottawa County. That should help balance the dominant Lucas County Democratic Party hold on everything since the other counties are more moderate or conservative. There probably also needs to be a requirement that to be on the board (and subcommittees) you have much experience in that industry/sector.