doulasc
Topic Author
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Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:29 pm

I was just on Toledo Express Airports website and discovered only American Eagle has service to ORD and Allegiant Air has service to Orlando-Sanford and St.Petersburg. What is causing the lack of air service at TOL. How far is DTW from Toledo? Back in Toledo's hey day they had Delta,Eastern,United,Lake Central(merged with Allegheney in 1967). Any others? Bax Global closed their hub also. What kind of future will TOL have?
 
FWAERJ
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:37 pm

This article presents an interesting perspective:
http://www.toledoblade.com/local/201...-for-help-in-airport-s-growth.html

Regarding driving distance: DTW is a 55-minute drive from downtown Toledo, while TOL is a 30-minute drive. With the sheer amount of service available at DTW (often at lower fares), most simply drive the extra 25 minutes.
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Bobloblaw
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:34 pm

I think the future is now for cities like TOL, RFD, close to hubs etc.

They cannot support service to other hubs airports without massive subsidies (ie F9 in RFD). These are niche airports. They can have flights to cities where these is a large OD such as MCO/SFB, LAS, CUN. Also these airports should really push cargo as the nearby hub is usally space constrained, congested and expensive.

It is clear to me that legacy airline service to cities that lie within 100 miles of a major hub is dead and wont be coming back. For various reasons that I wont type here cuz I don t like typing. But lets looks that the body count for failed legacy service to cities close to a hub:

TTN
Worchester
ILG
Hickory
Athens, GA
MCN
TOL
RFD
JVN
CWA
COU
SAE
etc
 
Metjetceo
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:23 am

If I am not mistaken they still do a descent amount of cargo volume with BAX/ATI.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:16 am

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 2):
But lets looks that the body count for failed legacy service to cities close to a hub:

To be fair, CWA has sustained a sensible amount of service (perhaps you meant EAU?), and COU is a rare EAS success story. Of course, both of those are also quite a lot further from hub airports than the likes of TOL or STC.
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michman
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:24 am

Quoting metjetCEO (Reply 3):
If I am not mistaken they still do a descent amount of cargo volume with BAX/ATI.


BAX closed the Toledo hub last year -- http://www.toledoblade.com/local/201...-Toledo-Express-700-jobs-lost.html

A company called BX Solutions took over the facility, but they are a ground only shipping company -- http://www.toledonewsnow.com/story/1...press-airport?clienttype=printable

[Edited 2012-06-25 18:27:18]
 
flyinryan99
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:50 am

Ugh.....   

For the near future, the airport will be here to serve a small niche local (regional) fliers who like to fly out of here to the leisure destinations that are offered on Allegiant. I'm sure we will see PGD picked up by Allegiant here in November and it could end up being even better off then SFB and PIE (PIE actually performs better of the two). American has a distinct advantage serving the market getting TO Toledo. They seem to be very happy with what they are doing which is running about 70% loads for now. Of course, I just found out today they (AA) canned everyone that has worked with TOL in the past which means new relationships have to be formed. If there was any growth, I would see the likes of F9 and maybe SY. I still think F9 has a good chance of happening as F9's popularity is on the up and up with the loss of AirTran to the smaller markets. F9 would be a good fit at 4x weekly with A319s ... just my own opinion though.

The airport is always going to be around. There is big business right now for the on demand cargo flowing through the airport to feed all of the auto plants in the area. Things have seemed to have slowed slightly, but they are still positive. The 180th is out there and they are flying active missions. They aren't going anywhere any time soon - admittedly because of a strong House Rep.

The direction the airport goes, is purely up to the institution that runs it. It could continue down the current path or things can change. This just isn't related to passengers...there are things that make no sense at this airport for a metro area of it's size. No 135 operator based on the field, no flight school, there are hardly any Cirrus or TAA based on the field, the corporate aircraft base is very small compared to the companies of size in the area...it's just strange. Basically what I'm saying is a cultural change is needed and someone who is pro AVIATION not just pro flying TOL is needed. Things start from the top down so if they want to make things better, then they need to start and get their buddies (or cronies) in on it too. Just starts with a few...   
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:51 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4):
To be fair, CWA has sustained a sensible amount of service (perhaps you meant EAU?), and COU is a rare EAS success story. Of course, both of those are also quite a lot further from hub airports than the likes of TOL or STC.

sorry, yes EAU, not CWA. CWA isnt too close to a hub...my bad.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:32 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 1):
DTW is a 55-minute drive from downtown Toledo, while TOL is a 30-minute drive.

Do you drive like a grandma? It is more like a 35 min drive from Downtown Toledo to DTW unless there is heavy traffic in Toledo area because pretty much north of the Ohio border to DTW isn't that heavy of traffic on I-75/275
 
compensateme
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:52 am

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 6):
If there was any growth, I would see the likes of F9 and maybe SY.

Please research SY's route map and let me know if you think TOL fits.

SY inaugurated LAN on behalf of Apple Vacations. With TOL in close proximity to DTW (and to a lesser extent, CLE) and lacking a FIS, it'd have to command a significant premium to make Apple's international flights successful. Otherwise, it's much cheaper sell packages to the Toledo-area from DTW and CLE.

RDF can also credit F9 partially to Apple (similar to SY in LAN), since F9 was operating many of Apple's charters before deciding to inaugurate regularly scheduled service. Of course, F9 was enticed by a one-year, $700K revenue guarantee. Who would be surprised if F9 dropped service at the conclusion of the deal?
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ouboy79
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:37 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
Do you drive like a grandma? It is more like a 35 min drive from Downtown Toledo to DTW unless there is heavy traffic in Toledo area because pretty much north of the Ohio border to DTW isn't that heavy of traffic on I-75/275

Rude much? There are days when I've seen 75 pretty slow through Monroe, but yeah it isn't too bad. However, we also have to be realistic that the bulk of Toledo travelers aren't coming from Downtown or the Point. They are going to be coming from West Toledo or the Southern/Western burbs.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 9):
SY inaugurated LAN on behalf of Apple Vacations. With TOL in close proximity to DTW (and to a lesser extent, CLE) and lacking a FIS, it'd have to command a significant premium to make Apple's international flights successful. Otherwise, it's much cheaper sell packages to the Toledo-area from DTW and CLE.

The international stuff obviously is a no-go from TOL at this point unless an area of the airport is upgraded to include FIS. However, domestic options are there though they would tend to start overlapping with G4.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 9):
Who would be surprised if F9 dropped service at the conclusion of the deal?

Depends. What do their loads and yields look like?
 
compensateme
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:10 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 10):
The international stuff obviously is a no-go from TOL at this point unless an area of the airport is upgraded to include FIS. However, domestic options are there though they would tend to start overlapping with G4.

Apple Vacations has served airports lacking a FIS, with the aircraft making a stop on the inbound flight. For example, the Apple/Funjet charters into FNT stopped in DFW as well as DTW. Obviously such a stop (including expanded routing) adds significant costs to the flight. Given that the Mexico/Caribbean-bound TOL market is already driving to DTW (as well as CLE), any flight from TOL would have to command a substantial premium. Market stimulation would be at the low-end, so such service is unlikely to happen.

Mexico/Caribbean is Apple's biggest interest, primarily because of the high margins many packages enjoy (as much as 40% on many hotels). Florida is secondary. I'm unaware of any market Apple's added charter service in recent years that lacked Mexico/Caribbean flying.
Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
 
N766UA
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:16 am

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 2):
Worchester

I think you mean Worcester- ORH. You'll only give yourself away as a foreigner if you're anywhere near New England and insert an 'H,' whether in text or in speech.  

Frankly, I think TOL is dead when it comes to commercial passenger service beyond fractionals. There's just no reason for an airport so close to CLE and DTW to have any kind of service anymore. You can drive to one of the 2 and fly direct almost anywhere just as fast as you can fly and connect.

I mean, honestly, if Cleveland is worried about retaining service, Toledo hasn't got a hope.
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PHX787
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:38 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 1):
Regarding driving distance: DTW is a 55-minute drive from downtown Toledo, while TOL is a 30-minute drive. With the sheer amount of service available at DTW (often at lower fares), most simply drive the extra 25 minutes.
Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
Do you drive like a grandma? It is more like a 35 min drive from Downtown Toledo to DTW unless there is heavy traffic in Toledo area because pretty much north of the Ohio border to DTW isn't that heavy of traffic on I-75/275
Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 10):
There are days when I've seen 75 pretty slow through Monroe,

75 is a real headache going through the Detroit area so it could take a lot longer than 35 minutes.


Do you guys think a rail line would be viable between these two, especially to DTW?

if that actually happens, you can kiss goodbye to TOL having any service at all
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michman
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:05 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 13):
75 is a real headache going through the Detroit area so it could take a lot longer than 35 minutes.


Do you guys think a rail line would be viable between these two, especially to DTW?

Huh, how do go through the Detroit area on I-75 to get to DTW from TOL? You take I-75 to I-275 through mostly open fields and lightly populated towns when you are in Michigan.

I'd say very little chance of rail service. However, the Toledo public transit authority could offer subsidized bus service to DTW like the Ann Arbor transit authority is doing -- http://www.myairride.com/. However, I'm guessing the TOL airport folks would scream bloody murder if they did.

[Edited 2012-06-26 19:06:53]
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:28 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 10):
Rude much? There are days when I've seen 75 pretty slow through Monroe, but yeah it isn't too bad. However, we also have to be realistic that the bulk of Toledo travelers aren't coming from Downtown or the Point. They are going to be coming from West Toledo or the Southern/Western burbs.

That probably was just when they were doing the construction on I-75 through Monroe, which I don't understand what they fixed because it is still bumpy as hell. I would say the drive from TOL to DTW is over an hour, but no way the drive between Downtown Toledo and Eureka Rd exit for DTW should take you more than 30-40 min if you are driving the speedlimit. I have never had traffic problems in the Toledo area (even at rush hour) unless there is a wreck blocking a couple lanes. Driving the speed limit it takes me 45 min driving from Livonia to I-75/I-280 interchange (which is about a mile from Downtown Toledo.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 12):
Frankly, I think TOL is dead when it comes to commercial passenger service beyond fractionals. There's just no reason for an airport so close to CLE and DTW to have any kind of service anymore. You can drive to one of the 2 and fly direct almost anywhere just as fast as you can fly and connect.

If TOL did their marketing right, they are a perfect candidate for an ultra LCC airport. They need to work more with Allegiant since Allegiant won't touch DTW or CLE, try to get FFT to DEN and maybe MCO (since FFT been flying to MCO out of a lot of small airports with E190s like Allentown, Madison, Omaha etc). Toledo is a city of 300,000 people, they should be able to sustain an airport. They have a catchment area for all of Northwest Ohio, south to Findlay, east to Port Clinton/Sandusky. If they could build up some ultra LCC flights - they could catch people out of Monroe MI and even some people in the downriver Detroit suburbs that may only be 15 min away from DTW but would fly out of TOL to save money.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 13):
75 is a real headache going through the Detroit area so it could take a lot longer than 35 minutes.

You aren't going through the Detroit area when you drive between Toledo and DTW. Other than Monroe, everything between Toledo and DTW is boonies

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 13):
Do you guys think a rail line would be viable between these two, especially to DTW?

NEVER. Down here in Florida, we can't even get a high speed rail line between Tampa and Orlando (theme parks and MCO). Rail lines have never worked in Detroit - it is the MOTOR CITY, people in Detroit take pride in driving their cars and so do they in Toledo I am sure (except they like their Jeeps). They tried rail lines in Detroit a few times - they have plenty of railroads that run from the suburbs to Detroit, infact one rides on the north perimeter of DTW - Norfolk and Southern.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the big CSX railyard that you pass by in Toledo when you are heading southbound on I-75 right before it curves to the west and passes the big Jeep plant is the same CSX rail line that runs just to the west of DTW.

The biggest road block would be they would still need to do repairs on the tracks to make it up to passenger standards (especially if they want to go highspeed rail). Who is going to pay for it? State of Ohio? Michigan? Michigan isn't going to want to pay for it since its residents won't use it. We can't even get a rail line built between Tampa and Disney/MCO and that is within the state - but Toledo to DTW is between 2 states. Why would the state of Ohio want to pay for a train that mostly runs in Michigan, when that would basically be the death of TOL?


ok you said west Toledo, the other person said Downtown. There is no way that it should take you over an hour (barring a serious accident) to drive from Downtown Toledo to DTW. It is probably quicker to drive from Downtown Toledo to DTW than it is to drive from Downtown Detroit to DTW.

Ok you will note that I live in Florida (parents live in Livonia MI -which is 15 min north of DTW) however in the past year I drove 8 times between Livonia and the Toledo area and each time it took me barely 45 min (and I said Livonia is 15 min north of DTW yet). I was driving the speed limit too, I don't like to mess with Ohio cops and the cops on I-275 (which are mainly the cops of the suburbs it goes through between Livonia and DTW).

When I say Toledo area, I mean the southside as in almost Perrysburg. Whenever I drive south down 75 leaving Livonia, whether it is driving my parents to Florida for the winter or when I stayed with my parents last summer and drove to Dayton Air Show or the AF Museum another day I always stop at the Tim Hortons off of I-75 and Buck Rd. I have timed it

[Edited 2012-06-27 05:38:31 by SA7700]
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:13 pm

TOL's outlook would be much different if Detroit's main airport had been built north or east of downtown Detroit.

Before World War II, most air service in the Detroit area was out of DET. However, DET could not accomodate DC-4s, so after the war, air service had to be moved elsewhere. AA wanted to move to DTW (then known as "Wayne Major Airport" or the "Detroit Industrial Airport), because it was closer to downtown than YIP. However, YIP's facilities were deemed better than DTW's, so the airlines moved from DET to YIP temporarily, pending a final decision on a new airport for Detroit.

The three proposals that were seriously considered were (1) a man made island in Lake St. Clair, (2) a location due north of Detroit in Warren, in the area where the General Motors Technical Center was subsequently built, and (3) converting YQG to a joint US-Canadian airport, with a new span of the Ambassador Bridge and a dedicated road from the new bridge to the US domestic terminal, so passengers would not need to clear Canadian customs. If Detroit's airport had been built at any of these locations, travellers from Toledo would have to drive through downtown Detroit to get to it, and many of these passengers would gladly fly out of TOL to avoid this drive.
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ouboy79
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:52 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 16):
TOL's outlook would be much different if Detroit's main airport had been built north or east of downtown Detroit.

I would think if the location of Toledo's main airport also plays into this. The other options before it was built was in West Toledo proper, downtown (east side) along the river, and of course current day TDZ (Metcalf / Executive Airport). This would make it closer into to the bulk of the population or at least easier direct access. TOL's main access crutch is over congested Airport Hwy / SR 2 and tolls on 80/90 (combined with limited local access ramps).

A lot of would've, could've, should'ves...but it is what it is. Though I wouldn't be against development of a new intermodal facility at Executive Airport and moving all train/bus service there as well. It would require upgrades to the runways and other facilities though. At the end of the day the cost is probably too high, especially with the bulk of the growth in the Metro Toledo area being on the South and West sides of town.
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:17 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 17):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 16):TOL's outlook would be much different if Detroit's main airport had been built north or east of downtown Detroit.
I would think if the location of Toledo's main airport also plays into this.

How long has Toledo's airport been in its present location? Did any other airports in Toledo have scheduled airline service?

At least seven airports in the Detroit area have had scheduled air service at one time or another: DET, YQG, YIP, DTW, PTK (which was served as a stop on North Central's YIP-PTK-FNT-MBS route in the late 1950s and early 1960s), Ford Airport in Dearborn (which was located between the Dearborn Inn and Greenfield Village; the Dearborn Inn was built for passengers flying out of Ford Airport, and was the world's first airport hotel), and Troy Airport on 15 Mile Road between Coolidge and Crooks, which had commuter service briefly in the early 1970s.

Did I overlook any Detroit area airports?
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ouboy79
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:09 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 18):
How long has Toledo's airport been in its present location? Did any other airports in Toledo have scheduled airline service?

1955...long before the western suburbs really got going. Before that all scheduled serviced was out of TDZ - which would have been United, C&S, and a few others.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:53 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 16):
The three proposals that were seriously considered were (1) a man made island in Lake St. Clair, (2) a location due north of Detroit in Warren, in the area where the General Motors Technical Center was subsequently built, and (3) converting YQG to a joint US-Canadian airport, with a new span of the Ambassador Bridge and a dedicated road from the new bridge to the US domestic terminal, so passengers would not need to clear Canadian customs. If Detroit's airport had been built at any of these locations, travellers from Toledo would have to drive through downtown Detroit to get to it, and many of these passengers would gladly fly out of TOL to avoid this drive.

There was a proposal in the late 1980s, maybe early 1990s to make Selfridge Field a joint military/commercial facility too. I also recall hearing about a plan to build a commercial airport in the Novi/Walled Lake area well before that got developed.

As for the manmade island in Lake St. Claire, wouldn't it have made more sense again just to convert Selfridge into a joint field - they would already have the runway to handle jets. They probably could have fit a parallel runway in there and put the terminal facilities on the west side of the field while military base would be on the east.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 17):
A lot of would've, could've, should'ves...but it is what it is. Though I wouldn't be against development of a new intermodal facility at Executive Airport and moving all train/bus service there as well. It would require upgrades to the runways and other facilities though. At the end of the day the cost is probably too high, especially with the bulk of the growth in the Metro Toledo area being on the South and West sides of town.

Metcalf is the small airport south of downtown off of I-280 and just north of the Ohio Turnpike? I stopped there to get a picture of the Metlife Snoopy blimp when I went through there last year. That is an awefully small airport. Other than I think a high school that was just to the southeast of it and some businesses on the south, there was plenty of room to expand.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 18):
At least seven airports in the Detroit area have had scheduled air service at one time or another: DET, YQG, YIP, DTW, PTK (which was served as a stop on North Central's YIP-PTK-FNT-MBS route in the late 1950s and early 1960s), Ford Airport in Dearborn (which was located between the Dearborn Inn and Greenfield Village; the Dearborn Inn was built for passengers flying out of Ford Airport, and was the world's first airport hotel), and Troy Airport on 15 Mile Road between Coolidge and Crooks, which had commuter service briefly in the early 1970s.

Did I overlook any Detroit area airports?

Troy Airport actually is off of Coolidge rather than 15 Mile (which is called Maple Rd in that area of town). I am not totally sure but I think a few others had some sort of air taxi/commuter service

I was trying to read if Berz Macomb - north of Warren and Big Beaver Airport in Troy - both long gone had some sort of commuter service because I thought they did but I found no evidence

http://www.airfields-freeman.com/MI/Airfields_MI_Detroit_NW.html

I believe Ann Arbor Airport (ARB) just south of I-94 and State St did at one time have air taxi. I was also thinking that Grosse Isle Airport had some sort of commuter service.

There was another airport that no one probably knows about, a lot of people don't know either was a little airport in Farmington Hills on Orchard Lake b/t 12 and 13 mile Rd called Krist Port. It did have freight service there, and possible passenger service. The old terminal still exists as a car wash - you can see the observation deck/tower on the roof of the car wash.

As for Ford Airport being the first to have an airport hotel - it was the first for many other things - First airport terminal, first paved runway, first lighted runway and first scheduled service.
 
ouboy79
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:30 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 20):
Metcalf is the small airport south of downtown off of I-280 and just north of the Ohio Turnpike? I stopped there to get a picture of the Metlife Snoopy blimp when I went through there last year. That is an awefully small airport. Other than I think a high school that was just to the southeast of it and some businesses on the south, there was plenty of room to expand.
http://www.airnav.com/airport/TDZ/

Yeah it is pretty small. That high school (Lake High School) you can see on Google Earth where they are demolishing the portions that was struck by an EF4 tornado a few years back. Otherwise yes, plenty of room to expand. Might have to realign a new runway to be more N/S to fit between the major railroad yard and I-280. Access to it is almost perfect. Right off SR 795 and I-280.
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:49 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 20):
As for the manmade island in Lake St. Claire, wouldn't it have made more sense again just to convert Selfridge into a joint field - they would already have the runway to handle jets. They probably could have fit a parallel runway in there and put the terminal facilities on the west side of the field while military base would be on the east.

The man made island was proposed in the late 1940s (pre I-94), and would have been off the Grosse Pointes. The proposal called for, of all things, a combined airport and city park with baseball diamonds. I don't know why they didn't suggest joint use of Selfridge, but my guess would be that it would have been too long of a drive from downtown.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 20):
There was another airport that no one probably knows about, a lot of people don't know either was a little airport in Farmington Hills on Orchard Lake b/t 12 and 13 mile Rd called Krist Port. It did have freight service there, and possible passenger service. The old terminal still exists as a car wash - you can see the observation deck/tower on the roof of the car wash.

That's amazing. I've driven Orchard Lake a lot (I grew up in B'ham), and never noticed the car wash. What is the name of the car wash? I'll have to look for it the next time I'm back in Detroit!
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NASCARAirforce
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:54 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 21):
Yeah it is pretty small. That high school (Lake High School) you can see on Google Earth where they are demolishing the portions that was struck by an EF4 tornado a few years back. Otherwise yes, plenty of room to expand. Might have to realign a new runway to be more N/S to fit between the major railroad yard and I-280. Access to it is almost perfect. Right off SR 795 and I-280.

Is there a railroad yard there? I don't remember passing over a track or was it on the west side? I remember seeing an RJ Corman caboose across the street from it but I thought it was just on display. I saw construction around the school, thought they were building a new one. To make it a commercial airport they would probably need to widen the runway to 150 ft, I don't recall the runway being all that wide.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 22):
The man made island was proposed in the late 1940s (pre I-94), and would have been off the Grosse Pointes. The proposal called for, of all things, a combined airport and city park with baseball diamonds. I don't know why they didn't suggest joint use of Selfridge, but my guess would be that it would have been too long of a drive from downtown.

True, Selfridge back in the 1940s would have been out in the middle of nowhere as Mt. Clemens probably wasn't considered a suburb of Detroit. Selfridge is further from Detroit than YIP is. Selfridge would still be a good alternate for an airport on the northeast side if they ever totally close Selfridge, which they seem to keep getting closer and closer to doing every couple years - aren't the A-10s leaving soon with some new base reallignment thing?

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 22):
That's amazing. I've driven Orchard Lake a lot (I grew up in B'ham), and never noticed the car wash. What is the name of the car wash? I'll have to look for it the next time I'm back in Detroit!

I heard about it back in 2005 and checked it out summer 2005, that is the last time I been on Orchard Lake. Supposedly its an auto repair shop at last report in 2006. Hopefully they haven't knocked it down and put something else there. It is mentioned on this site though, just look for Krist Port

http://www.airfields-freeman.com/MI/Airfields_MI_Detroit_NW.html
 
FWAERJ
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:00 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 15):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 13):
Do you guys think a rail line would be viable between these two, especially to DTW?

NEVER. Down here in Florida, we can't even get a high speed rail line between Tampa and Orlando (theme parks and MCO).

All three states (Florida, Michigan, and Ohio) have Republican governors that are adamantly opposed to high-speed rail. And in the case of FL and OH, the newly-elected governors killed plans for the Orlando-Tampa and 3C (CVG/CLE/CMH) HSR lines that were well under way.

All three of these governors are also up for re-election in 2014, which means that such previously-proposed lines may not be built for another decade.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
michman
Posts: 597
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:51 am

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:47 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 24):
All three states (Florida, Michigan, and Ohio) have Republican governors that are adamantly opposed to high-speed rail. And in the case of FL and OH, the newly-elected governors killed plans for the Orlando-Tampa and 3C (CVG/CLE/CMH) HSR lines that were well under way.

All three of these governors are also up for re-election in 2014, which means that such previously-proposed lines may not be built for another decade.

Oh really? Did you even bother to do any research about Michigan Governor Rick Snyder before making the statement? Apparently not.

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/...ichigan_hops_aboard_4_million.html

In a news release issued Friday by the U.S. Department of Transportation, Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder lauded the high-speed rail plans as essential to bolstering the state’s economy.

“This is an important partnership in our efforts to reinvent Michigan, specifically creating an accelerated rail connection between Detroit and Chicago for both citizens and businesses,” Snyder said in the release.
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4110
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 23):
Is there a railroad yard there? I don't remember passing over a track or was it on the west side? I remember seeing an RJ Corman caboose across the street from it but I thought it was just on display. I saw construction around the school, thought they were building a new one. To make it a commercial airport they would probably need to widen the runway to 150 ft, I don't recall the runway being all that wide.
http://goo.gl/maps/4IHp

To the west of the airport is the CSX (I believe) rail yard hub. The only issue is the lack of room for a runway over about 8000-9000'. Though they could have more flexibility by tunneling 795 if need be.
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2575
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting michman (Reply 25):
Oh really? Did you even bother to do any research about Michigan Governor Rick Snyder before making the statement? Apparently not.

I stand corrected... thanks for the link. I knew that John Kasich and Rick Scott pulled the plug on their states' HSR plans, and I thought Snyder did as well because they are all Republicans and many in the GOP oppose HSR.

Regarding a Detroit-Chicago HSR link: It's only logical... ORD is the #4 route from DTW and the two cities have traditionally close ties.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
toltommy
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:04 am

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 27):
I thought Snyder did as well because they are all Republicans and many in the GOP oppose HSR.

Thats an inaccurate statement. I oppose HSR because it can't be built or run without taxpayer subsidy! HSR as it has been proposed will never pay for itself. Heck, the current Amtrak subsidy is over $100 per ticket. I oppose HSR because it doesn't make financial sense.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 27):
Regarding a Detroit-Chicago HSR link: It's only logical... ORD is the #4 route from DTW and the two cities have traditionally close ties.

If it's so logical, why hasn't the private sector built it? The private sector won't build it because it because they'll never ever make a decent return on investment.

If HSR is such a good idea, then subsidies for airline service would be even better. Think about it. The proposed CLE/CMH/CVG rail line has yet to pass planning stage, let alone build the darn thing. If it were to be built, we'd spend years and billions of dollars on infrastructure, building everything from stations to dedicated rail lines. We have the infrastructure for air service in place. Why doesn't the state put a RFP out for an airline to serve these 3 cities with 10 daily flights each way. It has to operate as a strict air shuttle, only a walk up fare offered. Lets say the fare is $39 per leg, and the state kicks in another $150 per seat flown on the flight. The planes will fly empty, just like the trains will, but the taxpayer subsidy will be BILLIONS less over the long run.

For the record, I'm opposed to this subsidy as well, but at least it would be much less.
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:06 pm

Quoting toltommy (Reply 28):

If HSR is such a good idea, then subsidies for airline service would be even better. Think about it. The proposed CLE/CMH/CVG rail line has yet to pass planning stage

It won't pass. Not for the next 10 years. People in Ohio don't like it. (At least the republicans   )
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compensateme
Posts: 1600
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:55 am

Quoting toltommy (Reply 28):
If it's so logica, why hasn't the private sector built it? The private sector won't build it because it because they'll never ever make a decent return on investment.

It is logical. The private sector hasn't built it because it's cost prohibitive.
Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
 
NASCARAirforce
Posts: 2452
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RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:25 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 24):
All three states (Florida, Michigan, and Ohio) have Republican governors that are adamantly opposed to high-speed rail. And in the case of FL and OH, the newly-elected governors killed plans for the Orlando-Tampa and 3C (CVG/CLE/CMH) HSR lines that were well under way.

All three of these governors are also up for re-election in 2014, which means that such previously-proposed lines may not be built for another decade.

Florida has had a Republican governor since I lived here - first it was Jeb Bush, then Charlie Crist (who is a liberal Republican and may run again as a Democrat in 2014) then the bald headed Peter Garrett lookalike.

Michigan doesn't keep Republican governors that long, they usually switch back and forth. If Romney gets in as president, then Michigan will put a democrat back in as governor - because look at the history the opposite is always governor Dem gov when Rep pres vice versa

Obama/Synder
Bush/Grandholm
Clinton/Engler
Reagan/Blanchard

and wow, this has gone way off topic

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 26):
To the west of the airport is the CSX (I believe) rail yard hub. The only issue is the lack of room for a runway over about 8000-9000'. Though they could have more flexibility by tunneling 795 if need be.

Most likely it is a CSX yard, seems to be a lot of that in that area, but CSX has that big yard on I-75 just south of Alexis Rd exit too.

They can either tunnel 795 or just detour it around the end of the runway. Is 795 that busy of a road? Didn't seem like it when I was there.

What does TOL still have for cargo carriers if any?
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4110
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:44 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 31):
Most likely it is a CSX yard, seems to be a lot of that in that area, but CSX has that big yard on I-75 just south of Alexis Rd exit too.

Yeah...I think it is CSX that owns that one, I'm not certain though. Yeah I remember the big one up in Point Place.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 31):
They can either tunnel 795 or just detour it around the end of the runway. Is 795 that busy of a road? Didn't seem like it when I was there.

Detour would probably be more cost effective. I think most of the traffic uses US20/23 just south of the Turnpike, mainline because of the explosion of retail in that part of Rossford/Perrysburg. Most of that area is pretty much just farm land with little impact to homes or businesses, so relocating people wouldn't be difficult at all.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 31):
What does TOL still have for cargo carriers if any?

DHL operates at least 2 767s a night that fly CVG-TOL-MSP-TOL-CVG, and another that just does CVG-TOL-CVG turn. They are operated out of the small air cargo building next to the pax terminal. I think that is it for scheduled. I would imagine there are still occasional unscheduled cargo flights doing parts runs for the auto plants.
 
toltommy
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:04 am

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:46 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 30):
It is logical. The private sector hasn't built it because it's cost prohibitive.

LOL, you do work for the Port Authority, don't you?
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4110
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:15 pm

Quoting toltommy (Reply 33):
LOL, you do work for the Port Authority, don't you?

Looking at their post history for the last 3 years since they joined, it is very heavy in topics about DTW, Delta, and some TOL.
 
NASCARAirforce
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:27 am

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:30 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 32):
DHL operates at least 2 767s a night that fly CVG-TOL-MSP-TOL-CVG, and another that just does CVG-TOL-CVG turn. They are operated out of the small air cargo building next to the pax terminal. I think that is it for scheduled. I would imagine there are still occasional unscheduled cargo flights doing parts runs for the auto plants.

I remember TOL had the Burlington Air Express DC-8s and 727s for a while in the 1990s, then they went to ATI? Didn't Kalitta have a big operation there for a while in the 1990s too after he scaled back YIP and before he went to Terre Haute prior to selling American International to Kitty Hawk International (before he bought the planes back)?

TOL had a big cargo operation up until a few years back. Who was the company that was there most recently? CAT (Custom Air Transport)?

Wasn't someone bringing in Emirates Cargo747s and Qantas Cargo 747s operated by Atlas or something else?
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4110
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:28 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 35):
I remember TOL had the Burlington Air Express DC-8s and 727s for a while in the 1990s, then they went to ATI?

Quick recap from memory, so dates might be off a bit.

Burlington/BAX Global Hub moved to TOL in 91 or 93 from FWA. It remained in TOL until Sept 2011 when DB Schenker closed it.

Air operations initially, for domestic/North American flights were operated by ATI (DC-8s), Kitty Hawk (727s), American Int'l (727s), CargoJet (727s), AmeriJet (727s), Capital Cargo (727s), Mas Air (DC-8s), and a couple others mixed in. At the end it was mainly ATI and CCI (who actually merged a few years back when BAX sold ATI off).

Overseas International operations varied on the destination. They had over the course of the hub service to HKG, NRT, SYD and HHN. ATI/BAX actually did have one of the few initial route authorities to operated into Baghdad from TOL, but things didn't stabilize fast enough. Operations included Gemini DC-10s/MD-11s, World DC-10s/MD-11s, Polar 744s, and Atlas 744s

Cargo gallery on the FlyTOL facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...6968563.417261.107093498562&type=3

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 35):
Didn't Kalitta have a big operation there for a while in the 1990s too after he scaled back YIP and before he went to Terre Haute prior to selling American International to Kitty Hawk International (before he bought the planes back)?

It was planned. He initially announced a new sorting facility and mx hangar next to BAX for the American Int'l Freight subsidiary. However, Indiana came offering a ready made facility in Terre Haute plus incentives and got him to cancel the plan before ground breaking. Then AIF/AIA merged with Kitty Hawk and also consolidated everything in a new build facility in FWA just a few years after moving to Terre Haute. Then they filed Chapter 11 and the rest is history.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 35):
TOL had a big cargo operation up until a few years back. Who was the company that was there most recently? CAT (Custom Air Transport)?

Everything was BAX Global up through Sept 2011. However DB Schenker shut down the operation and moved most of their business to DHL. DHL is the last regularly scheduled cargo airlines flying form TOL. The old BAX facility however isn't empty. BX Solutions, a group of former Toledo-based BAX employees, took it over and started up operations doing ground sorting and shipping through the facility. They have mentioned the interest in relaunching air service and they have ground equipment for it still. We'll see how it works out, but it is good to see a local/home grown company taking the lead out there.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 35):
Wasn't someone bringing in Emirates Cargo747s and Qantas Cargo 747s operated by Atlas or something else?

That was all with a capacity agreement with BAX. BAX agreed to fill 50% of the aircraft with Qantas and Emerites responsible for the other half. The Qantas flights started first and had been operating since 1995 with various aircraft (started as DC-10s then to 747-200s, and finally 747-400s). Emirates was a newer addition but was reported to be doing quite well. For now, the Qantas flight (QF7552) has shifted to fly ORD-HNL-SYD. We'll see if developments allow them to reroute the aircraft back to TOL.
 
NASCARAirforce
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:27 am

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:22 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 36):
Cargo gallery on the FlyTOL facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...ype=3

I miss seeing those old green and white DC-8s and 727s

Are those old Hansa jets still parked at TOL? or they get scrapped and hauled off?

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 36):
They have mentioned the interest in relaunching air service and they have ground equipment for it still. We'll see how it works out, but it is good to see a local/home grown company taking the lead out there.

Cargo companies in the US are getting to be an endangered species if your name isn't Fed Ex or UPS. There seemed to be a ton of air cargo companies in the 1990s still. TOL still has the facilities for a cargo company and still in a nice somewhat central location for it.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 36):
That was all with a capacity agreement with BAX. BAX agreed to fill 50% of the aircraft with Qantas and Emerites responsible for the other half. The Qantas flights started first and had been operating since 1995 with various aircraft (started as DC-10s then to 747-200s, and finally 747-400s). Emirates was a newer addition but was reported to be doing quite well. For now, the Qantas flight (QF7552) has shifted to fly ORD-HNL-SYD. We'll see if developments allow them to reroute the aircraft back to TOL.

So the Emirates flight is still flying there?
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4110
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:06 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 37):
Are those old Hansa jets still parked at TOL? or they get scrapped and hauled off?

I was up there about 6 months ago and they were all cleaned out.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 37):
TOL still has the facilities for a cargo company and still in a nice somewhat central location for it.

Definitely. While it is nice that the building isn't empty with BX Solutions using it now, it still has all the ground handling capabilities to manage at least 30 aircraft one the ground at once.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 37):
So the Emirates flight is still flying there?

Nah that stopped as well.
 
compensateme
Posts: 1600
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:38 am

While Michael Boyd tries to sell extremist views, his thoughts on the future of air service to small communities is echoed thoughout the industry:

http://www.aviationplanning.com/HotFlash.htm

A quick summary:
-- At current fuel pricing, the economics of 50-seat regional jets isn't viable, thus these aircraft will gradually be reduced; if fuel returns to its peak pricing levels, retirements will be expedited.

-- Networks will continue to shrink. Inevitably, small communities will see their service shrink. Leaner service will equate into higher fares. Price-sensitive passengers will travel to larger nearby airports for lower fares; if the remaining community isn't willing to pay the higher prices, service will vanish altogether. Airports located in the shadow of a large hub will be heavily affected.

-- Low-fare carriers aren't white knights (in numerous markets, WN is charging over $1,000 RT for 7-day advance purchase tickets) and will ignore small markets in favor of higher-volume routes. The best hope for small markets will be on vacation-orientated airlines selling primairly package deals.

Sound familiar, TOL?
Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
 
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:09 pm

Quote:
For years, the refrain from port authority officials about sluggish passenger statistics was to blame the proximity of Toledo Express to Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport, but the Akron-Canton Airport is closer to Cleveland Hopkins International Airport and it's booming.


And now I quote the first comment from below the story:

Quote:
The problem with these comparisons is that Detroit Metro is the second-largest hub for the largest airline in the world, Cleveland does not even come close to the level of service and variety of direct and one-stop destinations served by Detroit. Cleveland Hopkins is small enough, relatively speaking, to allow for a secondary airport to thrive in the area. DTW, however, provides an unprecedented level of service and is under an hour from Toledo by car, making it very difficult to compete with.

Pretty much what I was going to say. DTW is HUGE. CLE is medium sized. You can't compare the options offered between the two.
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Cubsrule
Posts: 11376
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 39):
(in numerous markets, WN is charging over $1,000 RT for 7-day advance purchase tickets)

Which markets, please? I can get a full fare ticket for around $1,000 from BNA to anywhere.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
KarlB737
Posts: 2632
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:55 pm

From the article linked in reply 40 a different writer in the Toledo Blade finally is stating the hard-core facts that I and many others have been pointing out for a long time. Blade writer Ignazio Messina has unloaded a fresh analysis with many of the contrasting themes that you would expect from me. Blade writer David Patch never was this hard hitting. No one in the Toledo local media market has ever stepped up to tell this story as it really is until now.

Ignazio has delivered a crushing and damaging report which is clear, concise, and irrefutable, and should put an end to those who state all the excuses for the failures that he is now reporting at this time. This damaging report is now out in public complete with the full record of failures. This lengthy and detailed writeup is of permanent embarrassment to the TOL administration. Here are a couble of quotes from the article which suggest a realization (for the first time) of problems and one suggested solution.

Courtesy: The Toledo Blade

Other Airports Boom As Toledo's Nose Dives

"Former port board member R. Michael Frank, a Toledo attorney, has called for a major shake-up, with the airport taken away from the port authority and given to a dedicated airport authority.

Toledo Mayor Mike Bell, who makes appointments to the port board, said it may be time to explore a change in who runs the airport."

http://www.toledoblade.com/local/201...ts-boom-as-Toledos-nose-dives.html
 
milesrich
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:46 am

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:41 pm

Quoting toltommy (Reply 28):
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 27):
I thought Snyder did as well because they are all Republicans and many in the GOP oppose HSR.

Thats an inaccurate statement. I oppose HSR because it can't be built or run without taxpayer subsidy! HSR as it has been proposed will never pay for itself. Heck, the current Amtrak subsidy is over $100 per ticket. I oppose HSR because it doesn't make financial sense.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 27):
Regarding a Detroit-Chicago HSR link: It's only logical... ORD is the #4 route from DTW and the two cities have traditionally close ties.

If it's so logical, why hasn't the private sector built it? The private sector won't build it because it because they'll never ever make a decent return on investment.

The US will never have a good rail system, because that would make us too much like Europe. God forbid we should spend tax money on rail infrastructure for high speed trains. If Romney wins and the GOP takes over the Senate, Amtrak might just go away.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11376
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:53 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 44):
The US will never have a good rail system, because that would make us too much like Europe.

The US is too large to have a European-style rail system on a large scale? Ever try to take the train from Paris to Warsaw? It's awful, but it's about the same distance as - and really not much less difficult a ride than - Chicago-New York.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:00 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 45):
The US is too large to have a European-style rail system on a large scale? Ever try to take the train from Paris to Warsaw? It's awful, but it's about the same distance as - and really not much less difficult a ride than - Chicago-New York.

There is no density that would appropriate a decent rail network. The only density is in the eastern seaboard and even then it's none too good.
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skycub
Posts: 318
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:49 pm

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:02 am

I swear... for as many people there are on ANET who worry about Toledo... it is hard to believe any carrier flying there has a problem filling a plane!

Get the anet population over to Toledo Express and the flights will be overselling!

I'm just saying!
My opinions are my own. They are not representative of my employer, my union or my co-workers. They are all mine.
 
HVNandrew
Posts: 385
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:05 am

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:28 am

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 2):
Athens, GA

Not to go totally off topic... but that's one city that really should be able to support some sort of legitimate airline service. It's an hour and 45 minutes from Athens to ATL without traffic. I imagine that at certain times of day it can take significantly longer. While it is a short flight from ATL, I would think that a couple flights a day to CLT on a Dash would be sustainable - especially given its remote location and UGA traffic.

Or I could just be biased, given my love for the town. 
 
KarlB737
Posts: 2632
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Future Of Toledo Express Airport

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting skycub (Reply 47):
for as many people there are on ANET who worry about Toledo...

Nobody is "worrying" about Toledo. Many are commenting on a failure in leadership. Part of the reason for this disgust is because the rest of us are held accountable at our jobs. We are expected to succeed. One of the things that is being stated in these posts is that these "administrators" at TOL are clearly not succeeding and at the same time are not being held accountable to any extent.

This latest article unlike those in the past clearly outline the failures and suggests a change in airport leadership which as the article also states is echoed by others.

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