SA744
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Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:00 am

Hi Everyone
I know this was discussed recently but was just wondering if there have been any decisions made yet, I know that the station manager for LX in JNB said that they might be sending 777 to JNB, dont think that says what the decision is final, maybe just a heads up for a possibility?
Thanks
 
ZRH
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:12 am

Quoting SA744 (Thread starter):

Hi Everyone
I know this was discussed recently but was just wondering if there have been any decisions made yet, I know that the station manager for LX in JNB said that they might be sending 777 to JNB, dont think that says what the decision is final, maybe just a heads up for a possibility?
Thanks

Sorry, but for LX this is wrong information. They won't fly any 777 for sure because with its all Airbus fleet it would not make sense. There is a rumor that they would like to have some bigger aircraft than the 343 (up to 5?). But this would most probably be a few 346. This would be an ad interim solution until new aircrafts are ordered and delivered, for example the 350-900 and -1000. Till then the LX long-haul fleet will consist of 15 A 343 and 15 A 333 (and 346???).
 
jfk777
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:45 am

Quoting ZRH (Reply 1):
Sorry, but for LX this is wrong information. They won't fly any 777 for sure because with its all Airbus fleet it would not make sense. There is a rumor that they would like to have some bigger aircraft than the 343 (up to 5?). But this would most probably be a few 346. This would be an ad interim solution until new aircrafts are ordered and delivered, for example the 350-900 and -1000. Till then the LX long-haul fleet will consist of 15 A 343 and 15 A 333 (and 346???).

Just because LX currently flies Airbus jets why is it not going to fly a 777 to JNB ? AN A340-600 is hardly "advanced". What is almost a certainty is that whatever replaces LX A340 will be twin engined. a 787-9 or 777-8 would both be great additions to the LX fleet and the greater LH fleet.
 
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legacyins
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:51 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):
Just because LX currently flies Airbus jets why is it not going to fly a 777 to JNB ?

I guess one reason is that they do not, nor does their parent LH, have the pax 777 in their fleet. Would they order it? Probably not since the A 350 ect will be avaiable for fleet renewal in a couple of years.
 
330lover
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:12 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):
Just because LX currently flies Airbus jets why is it not going to fly a 777 to JNB ? AN A340-600 is hardly "advanced". What is almost a certainty is that whatever replaces LX A340 will be twin engined. a 787-9 or 777-8 would both be great additions to the LX fleet and the greater LH fleet.

And there we go again...


Discussed over and over again, but I don't find the topic right now, must have looked over it. Someone please post the link so we don't have to go through all this again.
Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
 
qm001
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:25 pm

perhaps an OS 777???
I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
 
jfk777
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:39 pm

Quoting legacyins (Reply 3):
I guess one reason is that they do not, nor does their parent LH, have the pax 777 in their fleet. Would they order it? Probably not since the A 350 ect will be avaiable for fleet renewal in a couple of years.

LH had NOT ordered A350's and the fact they have a massive A340 fleet doesn't peclude Boeing from getting a 787 order.
 
LH506
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:49 pm

Quoting qm001 (Reply 5):
perhaps an OS 777???

Exactly my thoughts. Maybe restructuring at OS will make them focus on some 767 routes and cut everything else, and AUA moves their 777s to LX. They should be able to carry a little more weight than the 343s.
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larshjort
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:52 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):

Just because LX currently flies Airbus jets why is it not going to fly a 777 to JNB ? AN A340-600 is hardly "advanced". What is almost a certainty is that whatever replaces LX A340 will be twin engined. a 787-9 or 777-8 would both be great additions to the LX fleet and the greater LH fleet.

I would think that the A340-600 is just as advanced as the 777-300ER, it just uses a bit more fuel.

Besides LX would have to set up from scratch a new operation if they choose the 777. Maintenance and crew training, more spares. And if LH can make the A340-600 wok, so can LX.

/Lars
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legacyins
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:14 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 6):
LH had NOT ordered A350's

Hence why I put the "ect"

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 6):
and the fact they have a massive A340 fleet

They currently have 24 A346 ranging in age from 3 yrs to 8 yrs. Not really massive, IMO. This is more of an argument that they will pass these onto LX as LX wants a larger aircraft not a smaller aircraft as the 787.
 
ZRH
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:03 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):

Just because LX currently flies Airbus jets why is it not going to fly a 777 to JNB ?

Easy to answer: they have about 80 Airbus which all pilots can fly. Why should they have only a few pilots for probably 5 777. This is total uneconomically. Furthermore when not even the parent company LH has 777 (passenger).

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 6):
LH had NOT ordered A350's and the fact they have a massive A340 fleet doesn't peclude Boeing from getting a 787 order.

Yes, but the problem with the 787 is that the -8 is fare too small and the -9 probably too. So they would have to wait for the -10 if this ever comes. LX replaced the 332 with the 333 because the 332 was too small. With their three class layout they need bigger aircrafts.

[Edited 2012-06-26 09:04:55]
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:27 pm

Quoting ZRH (Reply 10):
Easy to answer: they have about 80 Airbus which all pilots can fly.

No. The A-319/-320 NB pilots are not qualified to fly the WBs, and the A-330/-340 pilots are not qualified to fly the NBs.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 10):
but the problem with the 787 is that the -8 is fare too small and the -9 probably too.

UA is putting 219 seats in the B-788s expected to begin delivery in September 2012. LX has 219 seats on their A-343s, and 236 on their A-333s.

When LH took over LX, they changed all their ERJs to Avros and Saabs. LH Tech can eaisly train the LX maintenance folks trained on just about every airliner airplane flying today. So, ordering the B-777 and/or B-787 is not really a significant problem.
 
PhilInBRN
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
UA is putting 219 seats in the B-788s expected to begin delivery in September 2012. LX has 219 seats on their A-343s, and 236 on their A-333s.

A 787-8 with LX would have around 170 to 180 seats maximum simliar to what ANA offers on their HND-FRA route. The 787 is just too small for LH and LX. First and Business class take up a lot of space.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
When LH took over LX, they changed all their ERJs to Avros and Saabs.

Not quite correct. When LH took over LX the Avros and Saabs had already been in the fleet for years, first with Crossair then with Swiss. The maintenance of these aircraft in BSL had been established for many years. AFAIK SR Technics at ZRH does not conduct heavy maintenance on 777s. They are specialized on A340 and A330.

At this point I think it would be more than very surprising to see LX operate 777 in the near future.
 
UALWN
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
UA is putting 219 seats in the B-788s expected to begin delivery in September 2012. LX has 219 seats on their A-343s, and 236 on their A-333s.

This is far from an apples-to-apples comparison. UA will have C, Y+ and Y (at 9 abreast), while LX has F, C and Y. A 788 configured with F, C and Y (at 8 abreast) would only seat about 150 people. This is a configuration comparable to LX's configuration in their 343/333s. [For comparison, ANA's 788s seat 158 without F.]
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lhcvg
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Quoting ZRH (Reply 10):
Easy to answer: they have about 80 Airbus which all pilots can fly.

No. The A-319/-320 NB pilots are not qualified to fly the WBs, and the A-330/-340 pilots are not qualified to fly the NBs.

But the differences training to an Airbus WB is relatively minimal. Training a small group of pilots to fly an entirely different, unrelated fleet type is another matter. I'm not saying they would pool the two pilot groups between NB and WB, but it is still going to be much easier and cheaper to have an all-Airbus fleet than introducing a unique fleet type for niche routes. As has been discussed previously, a larger LX plane in the short-term will likely be the A346, and not a 777 for obvious reasons.
 
ZRH
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:23 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
No. The A-319/-320 NB pilots are not qualified to fly the WBs, and the A-330/-340 pilots are not qualified to fly the NBs.

That's nitpicking. It is almost the same. The pilots only need a few hours to accustom. As I know there are three groups only narrow-body, 330/340 and some 330 and n/b. But to have only 5 777 is absolute nonsense.
 
ZRH
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
UA is putting 219 seats in the B-788s expected to begin delivery in September 2012. LX has 219 seats on their A-343s, and 236 on their A-333s.
LX's First and Business need much more room than UA's premier classes. You can't compare. LX has real beds in First and lie flat seats in Business. LX would only have max 180 people in a 788. This is fare too less to fly economically.

[Edited 2012-06-26 10:27:56]
 
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Heavierthanair
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:03 pm

G´day

Though this has been mentioned numerous times on this forum before, the A 340-600 has a far superior take off performance than the B 777-300ER out of hot and high airports such as JNB, so why should LX or SA even consider the type. Commonality with the existing fleet simply precludes this, if the larger type truly is required there are sufficient good airframes available.

Sorry B - fanboys  

Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
B738FlyUIA
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:05 pm

Quoting ZRH (Reply 10):
Yes, but the problem with the 787 is that the -8 is fare too small and the -9 probably too. So they would have to wait for the -10 if this ever comes. LX replaced the 332 with the 333 because the 332 was too small. With their three class layout they need bigger aircrafts.

  

I think the only way will be for LX and LH to implement the A346. Lower training costs of Pilots and Cabin Staff and in the end more available seats in any configuration they will have. The first destination will be for sure GIG / GRU / EZE as mentioned in a previous thread!!
 
SASMD82
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:15 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 17):
G´day

Though this has been mentioned numerous times on this forum before, the A 340-600 has a far superior take off performance than the B 777-300ER out of hot and high airports such as JNB, so why should LX or SA even consider the type. Commonality with the existing fleet simply precludes this, if the larger type truly is required there are sufficient good airframes available.

Sorry B - fanboys  

Cheers

Peter

You name it!  

Also, don't forget the cost efficiency of having another Airbus type instead of a brand new type that required training and another maintenance schedule -> is money!!!
 
PhilInBRN
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:43 pm

Quoting B738FlyUIA (Reply 18):
The first destination will be for sure GIG / GRU / EZE as mentioned in a previous thread!!

Currently LX don't even serve GIG and EZE and don't have plans to inaugurate non stop services to these cities. Were LX to get the A346 they would most likely be placed on routes to GRU, HKG, JNB and NRT.
 
jfk777
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:27 pm

Quoting legacyins (Reply 9):
They currently have 24 A346 ranging in age from 3 yrs to 8 yrs. Not really massive,

Considering how small the world fleet of A346 aircraft is 24 is a LOT, probably 30% of all A346 planes. IB, SAA and Virgin Atlantic are the only other BIG users of the type.

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 8):
I would think that the A340-600 is just as advanced as the 777-300ER, it just uses a bit more fuel.

The A346 is as advanced as the 77W but the A346 is dead, out of production . Boeing is still making 777 and developing the 777-9X as the next generation 777.
 
UALWN
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:37 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 21):
Considering how small the world fleet of A346 aircraft is 24 is a LOT, probably 30% of all A346 planes.

Close: 24 / 97 = 25%.
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jfk777
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:32 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 22):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 21):Considering how small the world fleet of A346 aircraft is 24 is a LOT, probably 30% of all A346 planes.
Close: 24 / 97 = 25%.

97 is small, even for a sub-type. The 748 has about the same number of orders and the press in NOT calling it a "success". The only saving grace for the program is the A330.
 
UALWN
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:54 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):
97 is small, even for a sub-type.

It is, but it's more than these subtypes managed to sell: 753 (55), 764 (37), 777-200 (88), 777-300 (60), 777-200LR(57).

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):
The 748 has about the same number of orders and the press in NOT calling it a "success".

Actually, the sub-type 747-8i has sold 37 units, and the cargo model 747-8F has sold 70, both less than the A340-600.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):
The only saving grace for the program is the A330.

That "saving grace" has sold 1199 units until now. Not too shabby. Added to the 377 units the ugly-duckling A340 has sold, it means the program has sold 1576 planes. Again, not too bad. By comparison, the 757, 767, 777 and 747 have sold so far 1049, 1090, 1367, and 1524 units, respectively. Speaking of the 777, since the 777-200, 777-300, and 777-200LR have all sold less units than the A346, I guess one can say that the only saving graces of the program have been the ER models (777-200ER and 777-300ER), which, combined, have sold 1035 units...

[Edited 2012-06-27 06:14:12]
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na
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:14 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):
97 is small, even for a sub-type.

Still more than the 777-300 or 777-200LR subtypes Boeing sold. But I agree, The A346 has not been a success, Airbus surely must have hoped for 200+ when they developed the plane. Boeing just was too fast with the 77W. The opposite I expect when Boeing launches the 777X. Airbus will with a high probability strike back with an even better A350 killing the 777 for good by the mid-20s.

As for LX an bigger planes, I have no clue at all. Unless LH´s business allows them to shift a few A346s I dont see a plane bigger than the A343 that makes sense. Buying 77Ws now would leave them with old planes in less than ten years, surpassed by the A350 and 777X. The training, maintenance issues added, that plane makes no sense at all for Swiss. Maybe they take the QR A346s, or the ones from Star partner Thai until the A350-1000 is reality.
 
B738FlyUIA
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:38 pm

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 20):
Currently LX don't even serve GIG and EZE and don't have plans to inaugurate non stop services to these cities. Were LX to get the A346 they would most likely be placed on routes to GRU, HKG, JNB and NRT.

Sorry, then missed seeing the destinations online!!!! But there was a thread that GRU would like to add some more capacity on the route!!!
 
LONGisland89
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:12 pm

Quoting B738FlyUIA (Reply 18):
The first destination will be for sure GIG / GRU / EZE as mentioned in a previous thread!!
Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 20):
Were LX to get the A346 they would most likely be placed on routes to GRU, HKG, JNB and NRT.

Methinks one of the JFK flights would be a contender as well. Anyway, when are we going to see an announcement about the new type?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Quoting ZRH (Reply 10):
Easy to answer: they have about 80 Airbus which all pilots can fly.

No. The A-319/-320 NB pilots are not qualified to fly the WBs, and the A-330/-340 pilots are not qualified to fly the NBs.

I clearly recall an article in the LX inflight magazine a few years ago on their pilot training procedures etc. It stated that some LX pilots did fly both the widebody A330 and the narrowbody A320 family. Have they changed their pollicy since then?
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:18 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 21):
The A346 is as advanced as the 77W but the A346 is dead, out of production .

If it was "as advanced" as the B-77W, it would still be in demand by the airlines, thus still in production. There is a two year difference between the A-346 EIS (2002) and the B-77W (2004).

Quoting UALWN (Reply 24):
That "saving grace" has sold 1199 units until now. Not too shabby. Added to the 377 units the ugly-duckling A340 has sold, it means the program has sold 1576 planes. Again, not too bad. By comparison, the 757, 767, 777 and 747 have sold so far 1049, 1090, 1367, and 1524 units, respectively. Speaking of the 777, since the 777-200, 777-300, and 777-200LR have all sold less units than the A346, I guess one can say that the only saving graces of the program have been the ER models (777-200ER and 777-300ER), which, combined, have sold 1035 units...

Nice try. The A-330/-340 are two seperate airplane families. Even Airbus says so. There is no version of the A-330-500 or -600, they (A-333/-332) are very different airplanes, but are closely related the the A-342/-343. Yet, you only count the family members of each Boeing model. Every Boeing model (except the B-717 which is out of production and the B-787 which will get there soon) has sold airplanes numbering in four figuers. That means the B-707, B-727, B-737, B-747, B-757, B-767, and B-777. Airbus cannot say that except for the A-320 and A-330 models. The A-300 sold 561 airplanes, including the freighter version, the A-310 only had 255 units, the A-340 had 377 ordered and delivered 374 (F-WWCJ was written off prior to delivery to Etihad Airways) and 2 A-345s remain in the backlog, even though they will never be built. The A-350 is down to 548 orders since it has had 35 airplanes cancelled so far in 2011 and 2012. The A-380 is at just 257 airplanes ordered, and I think about 75 have been delivered.

Now, about the B-77L, it has never competing with the A-346 (nor dod the B-77A or B-773). It is direct compitition to the A-345, which has only sold 34 units, 32 delivered, and the remaining two will never be built, the B-77L has sold 57 units to date. The direct competitor to the A-346 is the B-77W, which has not only outsold it by nearly 4:1 at this point, it put it out of production as the B-77W has a 10% advantage in direct operating costs over the A-340 streched limo and carries more cargo and pax over about the same distance.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:14 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
When LH took over LX, they changed all their ERJs to Avros and Saabs.

Not correct. The Avro RJs were acquired by LX predecessor Crossair years before LH had any involvement in LX. And the Saabs, along with the Embraer 145s, were disposed of either before or soon after LH made their initial investment in LX. If memory correct, the decision to withdraw the E-145s and Saab 2000s and close the ex-Crossair BSL hub was made even before LH's involvement or when they only had a small minority shareholding.
 
DALCE
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:03 am

why again start again about the 77W being better than the 346, and which maunfacturer sold more aircraft....This is not the topic.
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UALWN
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:51 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 29):
The A-330/-340 are two seperate airplane families.

Launched at the same time, having enormous commonality, and built on the same final assembly line...

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 29):
Nice try.

Thank you, Somebody said that 97 for a sub-type (the A346) was small, and I provided examples of Boeing subtypes with even smaller numbers. I wasn't comparing them to anything in particular. It is easy to pick up the numbers that make one manufacturer or the over look better. I still remember when there were heated discussions about which would sell more, the A332 or the 764, which came to the market at about the same time. We all know how that ended up: 624 (and counting) vs. 37.
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jfk777
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:24 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 29):
If it was "as advanced" as the B-77W, it would still be in demand by the airlines, thus still in production. There is a two year difference between the A-346 EIS (2002) and the B-77W (2004).

"Advanced and Efficient" are two different things. The Concorde was the most advanced plane of its day but wa a GAS HOG. Airbus made the decision to make the A346 with 4 engines and the 777 twin engine efficiency killed it. Its too bad the A346 didn't sell better, it is better out of high airports then the 777-300ER. The airline that truly makes the statement of 777 efficiency is Air France, the French airlines is one of the biggest operators of the 777. This an airline which should have an all Airbus fleet.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:30 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 33):
Its too bad the A346 didn't sell better, it is better out of high airports then the 777-300ER.

The A-340-600HGW has a MTOW of 840,000 lbs and a max thrust of 240,000 lbs with 4 RR Trent-560 engines of 60,000 lbs of thrust each. This gives it a thrust to weight ratio of 3.5:1, which is very good performance.

The A-340-600 has a MTOW of 810,000 lbs and a max thrust of 224,000 lbs with 4 RR Trent-556 engines of 56,000 lbs of thrust each. This gives thrust to weight ratio of 3.6:1, which is again very good performance.

The B-777-300ER has a MTOW of 775,000 lbs and a max thrust of 230,600 lbs with 2 GE-90-115B1 engines of 115,300 lbs of thrust each. This gives it a thrust weight ratio of 3.4:1 which is slightly better performance than the A-346HGW, or the standard A-346.

Neither airplane outclasses/outperforms the other at a high and hot airport by very much
 
columba
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:23 pm

Quoting legacyins (Reply 9):
This is more of an argument that they will pass these onto LX as LX wants a larger aircraft not a smaller aircraft as the 787.

Doubtful as LH just stated they need larger aircraft as well because they are limited on German airports (e.g. no third runway in MUC)

Quoting ZRH (Reply 10):
Yes, but the problem with the 787 is that the -8 is fare too small and the -9 probably too. So they would have to wait for the -10 if this ever comes. LX replaced the 332 with the 333 because the 332 was too small. With their three class layout they need bigger aircrafts.

LH has stated interested in the 787-10 and I very much believe that is the reason why they have not ordered either aircraft, yet, they want the 787-10 and they want it tailored to their needs  
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
chieft
Posts: 326
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:35 pm

RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:49 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 34):
The A-340-600HGW has a MTOW of 840,000 lbs and a max thrust of 240,000 lbs with 4 RR Trent-560 engines of 60,000 lbs of thrust each. This gives it a thrust to weight ratio of 3.5:1, which is very good performance.

The A-340-600 has a MTOW of 810,000 lbs and a max thrust of 224,000 lbs with 4 RR Trent-556 engines of 56,000 lbs of thrust each. This gives thrust to weight ratio of 3.6:1, which is again very good performance.

The B-777-300ER has a MTOW of 775,000 lbs and a max thrust of 230,600 lbs with 2 GE-90-115B1 engines of 115,300 lbs of thrust each. This gives it a thrust weight ratio of 3.4:1 which is slightly better performance than the A-346HGW, or the standard A-346.

Neither airplane outclasses/outperforms the other at a high and hot airport by very much

That's correct. The difference will be shown if you lose one engine during take-off.

If I repeat it correctly, has that happened during the presentation battle between B and A in JNB. And that was one reason SAA decided to take A and not B...
Aircraft are marginal costs with wings.
 
jfk777
Posts: 5956
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:12 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 34):
The A-340-600HGW has a MTOW of 840,000 lbs and a max thrust of 240,000 lbs with 4 RR Trent-560 engines of 60,000 lbs of thrust each. This gives it a thrust to weight ratio of 3.5:1, which is very good performance.

The A-340-600 has a MTOW of 810,000 lbs and a max thrust of 224,000 lbs with 4 RR Trent-556 engines of 56,000 lbs of thrust each. This gives thrust to weight ratio of 3.6:1, which is again very good performance.

The B-777-300ER has a MTOW of 775,000 lbs and a max thrust of 230,600 lbs with 2 GE-90-115B1 engines of 115,300 lbs of thrust each. This gives it a thrust weight ratio of 3.4:1 which is slightly better performance than the A-346HGW, or the standard A-346.

Neither airplane outclasses/outperforms the other at a high and hot airport by very much

Iberia selected the A340 because of Madrid 2000 feet elevation. Since the A340 allows IB nonstops all the way to Santiago and Lima 4 engines does make a difference. IB has 8 A333 coming so it will be interestng to see where they fly them.
 
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zeke
Posts: 10103
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RE: Fleet Renewal SAA And LX

Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting SA744 (Thread starter):
I know that the station manager for LX in JNB said that they might be sending 777 to JNB, dont think that says what the decision is final, maybe just a heads up for a possibility?

Could that be a 77F with Aerologic to replace the LH MD-11 on a LX code share ?

Quoting ZRH" class="quote" target="_blank">ZRH (Reply 1):
But this would most probably be a few 346. This would be an ad interim solution until new aircrafts are ordered and delivered, for example the 350-900 and -1000.

Some logic in this if they can leverage off the LH fleet. Is it possible for LH to fly FRA-ZRH-JNB and LX code share ?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
No. The A-319/-320 NB pilots are not qualified to fly the WBs, and the A-330/-340 pilots are not qualified to fly the NBs.

LX is actually one of those airlines that used to do mixed fleet flying between its narrow body and wide body Airbus fleets, been discussed before Airbus Mixed Fleet Flying (by Logos Dec 18 2008 in Tech Ops)

No regulatory prohibition on flying both the narrow body or wide body, twin and quad Airbus FBW aircraft by the same pilot. Airlines normally keep it to a combination of two as normally the simulator and line checks alternate, flying all 3 is a little more tricky to roster the recurrent checks.

Quoting na (Reply 25):
Airbus surely must have hoped for 200+ when they developed the plane.

If I recall correctly, the fleet size they built the repayable loan over was around half that.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 29):
There is no version of the A-330-500 or -600, they (A-333/-332) are very different airplanes, but are closely related the the A-342/-343.

All new A330s are equivalent to the 500/600 A340s. The difference is under the skin, a number of systems were changed with the 500/600, as well as avionics updates that made it to the A330E, E is for enhanced.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 29):
Airbus cannot say that except for the A-320 and A-330 models.

Considering the 54 year advantage Boeing started with, the 31 years Airbus Industrie, and 11 years Airbus SAS has been around I think they are doing alright to reach parity with Boeing on sales and deliveries.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 34):

Neither airplane outclasses/outperforms the other at a high and hot airport by very much

When hot and high in JNB, i.e. a density height around 8-900ft, a 77W will only uplift as much revenue payload out of JNB as an A340-300 for a JNB-HKG trip. Fuel is not revenue payload for an airline. The A340-600 in the same conditions will lift more revenue payload out of JNB than what the 747-400 can. This is due to the tyre speed limit on the 77W, and its requirement to accelerate at high speed to meet the engine out climb gradients. This can be compounded further if RW 21 (uphill) is in use.

JNB is one of those airports that one sees a lot more quad engine widebody aircraft used for long haul flights, lots of A340s, 747s, and A380s.
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