LipeGIG
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787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:48 am

As the previous one become too long, as well as giving the request to include "Delivery" into the topic, we are opening a new thread for discussion making the disclosure about the link to the previous one:

787 Production Thread Part 4 (by LipeGIG May 30 2012 in Civil Aviation)


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Stitch
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:06 am

So we currently stand at 13 deliveries (with 11 airframes flown out) between All Nippon Airways and Japan Airlines. Qatar Airways' first deliverable frame will soon be on her way to the Farnborough Airshow for static and aerial displays, followed by a return to PAE for final outfitting and then delivery. Air India has at least three airframes ready for delivery whenever they can find the time/money/will to take them and by the end of the year we should see first deliveries to United Airlines, China Southern, LAN, LOT Polish Airlines and Ethiopian.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:31 am

Part of the discussion was work after the plane rolled out of the assembly line:
"ZA135 (LN 66) still had a about 300 small jobs to be completed but as Boeing get further into regular production, the number of these jobs will shrink."

Darn. That was supposed to be the first to roll off the line complete.

From:
http://nyc787.blogspot.com/
(new post tonight, worth reading)


We're currently in the stage where Boeing is ramping up production to 5 788s/month. I look forward to the ~10 788s per month in 2013! (Note: Just a few shy of 120 for the year, per current plan.)

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
China Southern

I thought Hainan would receive theirs before China Southern? I didn't see them on your list.


Lightsaber
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:34 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 2):
Darn. That was supposed to be the first to roll off the line complete.

I doubt a 767-300ER rolls off the line with no pending jobs, and they've been building them for decades.  
 
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kanban
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:45 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 2):
Darn. That was supposed to be the first to roll off the line complete.

I believe it was to roll out with no rework/mods required.. No plane rolls out complete.. and has no additional work done on the flight line. Granted 300 jobs seems high however 100 could have been held up for a missing component on one job that must be installed before being buried... once the line is moving this number will probably average 75-100 open jobs.
 
PHX787
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:14 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 2):
(Note: Just a few shy of 120 for the year, per current plan.)

Just out of curiosity (and because I'm horrible at math) if this becomes a case, how long would it take before all the current orders as of now are filled?
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workhorse
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:02 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
United Airlines, China Southern, LAN, LOT Polish Airlines and Ethiopian

What about RAM (Royal Air Maroc)?
 
sweair
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:50 am

Do the current GE engines include PIP1? When will the PIP2 engines be delivered? And will they be retrofitted if a customer wants that?
 
tdscanuck
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:05 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 2):

Part of the discussion was work after the plane rolled out of the assembly line:
"ZA135 (LN 66) still had a about 300 small jobs to be completed but as Boeing get further into regular production, the number of these jobs will shrink."

Darn. That was supposed to be the first to roll off the line complete.

300 is pretty good, and probably close to the normal "no travelled work" number. All the work that's done on the flightline (and in paint) is a "job" in Boeing parlance and all that work drops before the planes actually reach the end of the final assembly line.

That number can never be zero because the plane isn't complete when it hits the end of final assembly.

Tom.
 
NYC777
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 4):
I believe it was to roll out with no rework/mods required.. No plane rolls out complete.. and has no additional work done on the flight line. Granted 300 jobs seems high however 100 could have been held up for a missing component on one job that must be installed before being buried... once the line is moving this number will probably average 75-100 open jobs.

This one is in paint and all the jobs that had to be done were small. It took them about 3 weeks to finish off the 300 jobs on LN 66 so going forward the amount time to finish off the small jobs should shrink to less than a week in my opinion.
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United787
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:44 pm

Delivered to Date, 13 aircraft:

L/N 8 - JA801A - 9/25/2011 - NH (ANA)
L/N 24 - JA802A - 10/13/2011 - NH (ANA)
L/N 31 - JA805A - 12/30/2011 - NH (ANA)
L/N 41 - JA807A - 1/12/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 9 - JA804A - 1/13/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 23 - JA822J - 3/25/2012 - JL (JAL)
L/N 33 - JA825J - 3/25/2012 - JL (JAL)
L/N 40 - JA806A - 3/29/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 42 - JA808A - 4/14/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 37 - JA826J - 4/25/2012 - JL (JAL)
L/N 38 - JA827J - 4/25/2012 - JL (JAL)
L/N 47 - JA809A - 6/20/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 48 - JA810A - 6/24/2012? - NH (ANA)

Next Up:
Shown on "All Things 787" as "Final Preps for Delivery":

L/N 56 - JA812A - 6/??/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 51 - JA811A - 7/??/2012 - NH (ANA)
L/N 58 - A7-BCB - 7/??/2012 - QR (Qatar)
L/N 7 - JA803A - 7/??/2012 - NH (ANA) Awaiting first flight
L/N 49 - ET-???? - 7/??/2012 - ET (Ethiopian) Awaiting first flight

L/N 29 - VT-AND - ?/??/2012 - AI (Air India)
L/N 46 - VT-ANI - Mid/2012 - AI (Air India) (Charleston)
L/N 35 - VT-ANH - TBD - AI (Air India)

L/N 66 - JA813A - TBD - NH (ANA) Awaiting first flight
L/N 67 - JA???? - TBD - NH (ANA) Awaiting first flight
L/N 68 - CC???? - TBD - LA (LAN) Awaiting first flight
 
PHX787
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 10):
L/N 58 - A7-BCB - 7/??/2012 - QR (Qatar)

Is this going to be delivered before or after the airshow?
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:30 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
Is this going to be delivered before or after the airshow?

From the last thread someone said after because it will return to PAE after the airshow.
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:31 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):

After the airshow, it will fly back to PAE for final fit out then deliver to QR.
 
na
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:38 am

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...s-at-14-per-month-787-rate-373494/

14 a month, thats a lot and about the rate of 737 deliveries 12 years or so ago.
I wonder how long it will take until all the early frames which still need heavy mods are being delivered.
 
sweair
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:33 am

It seems JALs first 4 frames have the non PIP1 engines, block 4. With PIP2 the GE will be at or better than SPEC and RR has to do a third PIP to get to SPEC. Anyway its nice for the airlines that these upgrades will be available in the future, getting even better engines with time.

Today one frame should be delivered for ANA, the third this month. I wonder if July will be the first month with more than 3 delivered?
 
UA933
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:15 am

So the PIPs can be implemented also on the birds that have already been delivered?

BTW, when can we expect to see a UA in full colors? Delivery is scheduled for September.
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tdscanuck
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:03 am

Quoting UA933 (Reply 16):
So the PIPs can be implemented also on the birds that have already been delivered?

Yes. You have to swap the engines to implement it.

Quoting UA933 (Reply 16):
BTW, when can we expect to see a UA in full colors? Delivery is scheduled for September.

If they're on a normal schedule, they should be out of paint in August or early September to make a September delivery.

Tom.
 
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:04 am

Please let me know... If you know this is the end of the world, Let me know... If you know the truth...
 
UA933
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:31 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 17):
Yes. You have to swap the engines to implement it.

I assume that Boeing / GE will "give" these engines away free of charge? Bringing the plane up to original spec should not result in additonal cost to the airlines?!
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na
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:31 pm

Quoting UA933 (Reply 19):
I assume that Boeing / GE will "give" these engines away free of charge? Bringing the plane up to original spec should not result in additonal cost to the airlines?!

Unless they have agreed to pay less per frame in the endless epic delay story of the program I would say yes.
 
na
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:34 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 15):
It seems JALs first 4 frames have the non PIP1 engines, block 4. With PIP2 the GE will be at or better than SPEC and RR has to do a third PIP to get to SPEC. Anyway its nice for the airlines that these upgrades will be available in the future, getting even better engines with time.

As the 787GE engines are now delivering what was promised and soon more I´d rather see GE concentrating of the 748I engines now which need similar treatment so the 748I overdelivers soon also. They are the same family as the 787 engine so that sounds like a task that should be solved.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:13 pm

Quoting na (Reply 21):
As the 787GE engines are now delivering what was promised and soon more I´d rather see GE concentrating of the 748I engines now which need similar treatment so the 748I overdelivers soon also.

The GEnx2B-67 at service entry already incorporated PiP1 from the GEnx1B family. GE is planning a PiP1 for the GEnx2B that will reduce the SFC shortfall from the current 2.7% to around 1.1% when it enters service later next year and both GE and Boeing have committed to additional performance upgrades to reduce or eliminate payload restrictions on longer-range routes for cargo operators (the MZFW and MTOW boost are probably part of this).
 
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lightsaber
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:43 pm

Does anyone have an estimate of 788 range by line number?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
I doubt a 767-300ER rolls off the line with no pending jobs, and they've been building them for decades.

Agreed. 300 is just high.

Quoting kanban (Reply 4):
Granted 300 jobs seems high however 100 could have been held up for a missing component on one job that must be installed before being buried... once the line is moving this number will probably average 75-100 open jobs.

  

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):
how long would it take before all the current orders as of now are filled?

About six years. In other words, until the line pace picks up even more, do not expect significant new 787 orders.    So Boeing has an incentive to further increase the rate of 787 deliveries.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 8):
That number can never be zero because the plane isn't complete when it hits the end of final assembly.

No doubt. Below a hundred wouldn't be worthy

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 9):
t took them about 3 weeks to finish off the 300 jobs on LN 66 so going forward the amount time to finish off the small jobs should shrink to less than a week in my opinion.

That one week seems very appropriate. Time to get those mechanics back indoors onto the surge line!   

Quoting UA933 (Reply 19):
I assume that Boeing / GE will "give" these engines away free of charge?

Almost. The airline must pay RR or GE (depending on the engine vendor) an equivalent fee for the cycles utilized as they will be receiving a new enigine that is as far as possible from an overhaul. For those airlines with 'Power by the hour' maintenance plans, the engine swap will be at the engine vendors expense as neither has met promise.

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kanban
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:41 pm

There seems to be some confusion on the open job issue.. on one hand we have jobs traveled from Final Assembly for either missing parts, or engineering change activity. One job held for one part can create a traveled work load of from 1 to 30 or more jobs... this is because the part is buried and it makes no sense to close up the area only to remove everything to install it of course any related systems checks are delayed as well.. also leaving the area open prevents forgetting there was a buried job.

On the other hand there are numerous jobs scheduled for after roll out from big ones (say paint which is actually a series of jobs) to, and this dates me, installing the Rainex bottle, putting the medallion in the steering yoke (last thing because many walked away). there are quite a few systems checks, stuff related to engine run, etc.

The goal is always zero work traveled from the factory, I think it happened twice in the last 15 years I was with the company...
 
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:01 am

Do we have an update on when 'LOT' will take hold of there 787's ? i'm flying with them in JAN from PEK and don't really want the 763, according to their website it says in November of this year? I have emailed both Boeing and LOT and heard nothing back form either company.
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Ruscoe
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:16 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 23):
Does anyone have an estimate of 788 range by line number?

No, but I think the blocks are (or used to be);
Ln 7-19
Ln 20-34
Ln 35-50
Ln 51-89
Ln 90 - supposed to be ist 787 at original target weight.

Range is also complicated because weight is coming down but MTOW is increasing.

Ruscoe
 
sweair
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:46 am

I cant see if the JA812 was delivered yesterday? Can anyone confirm? I saw it had a flight, a short one though..
 
NYC777
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:25 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 27):
I cant see if the JA812 was delivered yesterday? Can anyone confirm? I saw it had a flight, a short one though..

It was not delivered yet.
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lightsaber
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:29 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 26):
No, but I think the blocks are (or used to be);
Ln 7-19
Ln 20-34
Ln 35-50
Ln 51-89
Ln 90 - supposed to be ist 787 at original target weight.

Range is also complicated because weight is coming down but MTOW is increasing.

Yep.
What I recall, from memory is that
LN 7 was 6,800nm at delivery, but should be a little more now (or will be) with engine PIPs
LN 20 were suposed to be 7,400nm

LN90 is supposed to be 8,000nm and will grow with engine PIPs, flap software improvements, etc.

But I've lost track. So I was hoping someone had a list. LN51-89 will be a nice ramp of capability.  

Lightsaber
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kanban
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:05 am

Matt noted on his Paine Field Blog that Air India VT-AND and VT-ANH have been re-registered as N1023O and N1020L..

should we place any significance on this change?
 
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RobK
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:05 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 30):
Matt noted on his Paine Field Blog that Air India VT-AND and VT-ANH have been re-registered as N1023O and N1020L..

should we place any significance on this change?

Interesting. They aren't re-registered in the true sense of the word as both those N-numbers are Boeing temporary registrations. If there was still testing to do with these planes then it wouldn't be out of ordinary, but as they are supposedly all done and dusted and waiting for AI to pick them up it's an interesting development. Maybe they are going to Farnborough?! That could be one explanation for the temp N-numbers (like with the QR 787). There's also the possibility that Boeing is sending them away into storage somewhere while AI make up their minds, but those ones usually receive get assigned a 'full fat' N-reg on the actual register. Interesting times...   
 
sweair
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:50 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 30):
Matt noted on his Paine Field Blog that Air India VT-AND and VT-ANH have been re-registered as N1023O and N1020L..

I don't think they would do this if delivery would be imminent? Might be sent off to the desert to let GOI drag its feet all they want. AI will probably never be seen as a priority customer at Boeing again and I hardly think Airbus would love to win them over either. Space is of premium at Paine field, they have to ready to deliver and they take up space needed for other frames.
 
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RobK
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:30 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 30):
Matt noted on his Paine Field Blog that Air India VT-AND and VT-ANH have been re-registered as N1023O and N1020L..

should we place any significance on this change?

According to my sources they are both planned to leave PAE on Monday for an airport on the US east coast, which is the reason for the temp sticker rego's.
 
WarpSpeed
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:44 pm

Quoting RobK (Reply 33):
According to my sources they are both planned to leave PAE on Monday for an airport on the US east coast, which is the reason for the temp sticker rego's.

Interesting. Possibly a repositioning for a simultaneous 3-frame delivery to Air India at KCHS. Certainly not a good place for storage. This would make for a big ceremony; marking a first for BCA from that location. It would also allow delivery/fly-away during the time that the main runway at KPAE is closed (July 4-8) for repairs.

[Edited 2012-06-30 10:54:04]
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NYC777
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:45 pm

Quoting RobK (Reply 33):
According to my sources they are both planned to leave PAE on Monday for an airport on the US east coast, which is the reason for the temp sticker rego's.

Interseting Rob. I suspect that they might fly to CHS and might be picked up by AI along with VT-ANI which is already there. This is speculation on my part but if they were going into storage, they won't sen them to the East Coast but rather to the deserts in California or Arizona where it's dry and can be stored there. I think they're going to be delivered out of CHS to AI.
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RobK
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:12 pm

The airport name was mentioned but it wasn't Charleston. I haven't mentioned the airport because it doesn't look right to me and am seeking clarification first.
 
sweair
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:39 pm

I actually think I saw a delivery of a 739 from Charleston this week, a turkish frame. They have a delivery center there doing nothing much right now  
 
NYC777
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:45 pm

Quoting RobK (Reply 36):
The airport name was mentioned but it wasn't Charleston. I haven't mentioned the airport because it doesn't look right to me and am seeking clarification first.

The mystery only deepens if it's not going to CHS. Then the question is is VT-ANI going to the same airport that the other two are flying to? If it's flying to an international airport then perhaps they're delivering from there for customs and immigration purposes. Again I certainly don't think it's flying to the east coast to be put in storage, that doesn't make sense.
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RobK
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:54 pm

..........

(awaiting further clarification)

[Edited 2012-06-30 12:02:16]
 
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RobK
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 38):
If it's flying to an international airport then perhaps they're delivering from there for customs and immigration purposes.

CHS already has those facilities, surely? The TK B739s and plenty of other BBJs have flown internationally from there.
 
iceberg210
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 38):
The mystery only deepens if it's not going to CHS

It could be they are just trying to get them out of KPAE before the runway closes. If they think that the GOI approval will come down while the KPAE runway is down, might as well have them out of Everett so they can actually deliver the planes. And I'm sure by this point Boeing would LOVE to have them off the property :p
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NYC777
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:16 pm

Quoting iceberg210 (Reply 41):
It could be they are just trying to get them out of KPAE before the runway closes. If they think that the GOI approval will come down while the KPAE runway is down, might as well have them out of Everett so they can actually deliver the planes. And I'm sure by this point Boeing would LOVE to have them off the property :p

That's plausible but they could fly them to BFI for that, why fly them way across the country?
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sweair
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:29 pm

If they fly them off to Charleston 2 stalls at flight line open for the frames coming off FAL or rework. Charleston has a delivery center just as Paine field and Boeing field? I am sure they can find some space in Charleston, there is only 1 787 waiting there so far. But they also have 1 runway closed..  
 
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United787
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 34):
Interesting. Possibly a repositioning for a simultaneous 3-frame delivery to Air India at KCHS. Certainly not a good place for storage. This would make for a big ceremony; marking a first for BCA from that location. It would also allow delivery/fly-away during the time that the main runway at KPAE is closed (July 4-8) for repairs.

This is the most logical possible reason...but given the saga's history with AI, who knows!
 
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RobK
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:33 pm

OK, had a slight hiccup with an earlier post, but now have confirmation from my source that they are indeed off to CHS (CLT was originally reported to me (now in error), hence why I didn't mention the airport).   
 
NYC777
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:35 pm

Quoting RobK (Reply 45):
OK, had a slight hiccup with an earlier post, but now have confirmation from my source that they are indeed off to CHS (CLT was originally reported to me (now in error), hence why I didn't mention the airport).

Thanks Rob, It sounds like it might be for delivery purposes. Why else would they fly them there unless they're just going to be stored there?
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
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RobK
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:49 pm

Latest 787 status just received for July :

JA803A still down for planned del JUL31, although B1 should have happened over a week ago.
JA811A planned del JUL11.
JA812A planned del JUL01.

3x AIC still "TBD".   
 
sweair
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:51 pm

Was it only one AI frame that was changed to JAL? Or wont they take anymore that have not been built?
 
NYC777
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RE: 787 Production/Delivery Thread Part 5

Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:54 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 48):
Was it only one AI frame that was changed to JAL? Or wont they take anymore that have not been built?

Currently I'm showing only one airframe meant for AI switched to JAL.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.

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