hoya
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Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:56 am

There have been posts in the past asking about the status of SP-LPC, LO's 767 that performed the belly landing in WAW last year. The plane will be sold, either to a museum or for scrap.

News article (in Polish): http://www.tvn24.pl/lot-sprzedaje-bo...alosci-lub-na-czesci,261056,s.html

Basics:
-Took months of negotiations to determine status of the aircraft
-LO had to pay for maintenance and the leasing fees to Air Castle, the lessor (aircraft was leased until 2015). Lufthansa Group was the insurer.
-Final settlement to LO was in millions of dollars, but it still didn't cover LO's losses, and LO ended up buying the aircraft as part of the settlement.
-Minimum bid will be in the 'millions' of dollars, and as of now there are at least six interested parties, including a museum.
-Aircraft may be sold intact or in parts.
-Aircraft will not fly again, and LO has begun the process of deregistering the aircraft.
-LO will have a farewell ceremony for the aircraft.


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Photo © Jan Ostrowski



[Edited 2012-06-27 01:57:31]

[Edited 2012-06-27 02:48:37]
Hoya Saxa!!
 
na
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:18 am

Thanks for the update! This marks the 14th writoff of a 767.
 
cat3dual
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:49 pm

What ever happened to the pilots? Are they still working for LO?

[Edited 2012-06-27 06:21:14]
 
Delta777Jet
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting cat3dual (Reply 2):

What ever happened to the pilots? Are they still working for LO?

Of course, they were declared national heros by the president of Poland.
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cat3dual
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:37 pm

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 3):
Of course, they were declared national heros by the president of Poland.

Interesting, thanks.  
 
spiritair97
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:13 am

Sad for the plane. Whats funny is that I happen to be listening to "Fighter" by Gym Class Heroes while reading this. It is the perfect song for it.
 
DeltaB717
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:34 am

That's a shame it came to that. What does that mean for their network? Will they lease/buy a replacement or wait for the 787s (doesn't seem like their leased replacement from Aerosvit happened?)?
 
spiritair97
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:40 am

What did ever happen to their leased replacment?
 
ba319-131
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:53 am

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 9):
Sadly this event could have been easily avoided by checking the fuses behind the F/O seat and moving his pilot suitcase little away to be able to see all fuses. This was the first thing maintenance did on the ground and the gear came out without any problem !

- Now this is interesting, must have missed this, makes the whole accident pilot/crew error
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ba286
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:09 am

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 10):
- Now this is interesting, must have missed this, makes the whole accident pilot/crew error

If it can be confirmed, that is.
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psimpson
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:39 am

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 7):
That's a shame it came to that. What does that mean for their network? Will they lease/buy a replacement or wait for the 787s (doesn't seem like their leased replacement from Aerosvit happened?)?

Lot will wait for the B787 as a replacement for the B767 SP-LPC.
They are however wet-leasing Aerosvit B767-300ER UR-AAH for some flight to Toronto and Hanoi See below link.
I have view this Aerosvit B767-300ER on a number of occasions on the Planeplotter MLAT network operating LOT042
CYYZ-EPWA
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...n-additional-boeing-767-80046.aspx
 
jreuschl
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:52 am

If this was all caused by fuses, isn't there a manual override that would bypass the fuses?
 
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longhauler
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 8):
Now this is interesting, must have missed this, makes the whole accident pilot/crew error


Sincerely, I don't know how you could have missed this, it was a huge issue during the investigation. It was confirmed that the electric alternate gear extension was not successful as a result of the open circuit breaker.

But, as a (B767) pilot, I think the bigger issue was when did the circuit breaker open? Was it open for the duration of the flight? Was it open for several flights, but unmissed ... until it was needed? Or (what would be my concern) did it pop during the first attempted electric alternate gear extension, indicating a problem in the system?

Something for which I never did get an answer: Was it legal, after the loss of a hydraulic system to continue across the Atlantic, on an ETOPS flight? I understand that Polish law is different. Under Canadian Air Regs, an ETOPS flight could not be performed under such a failure.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
spiritair97
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:14 pm

I'm surprised AeroSvit leased out the only 767 with the new colorscheme and winglets. I would think that they would want that plane being recognized in their own regions.
 
dcaviation
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:31 pm

Actually this is on the front pages of today's papers in Poland.
LOT hired two law firms (one British and one US).
LOT will sue Boeing and American company who undertakes service of LOT's B767s at Newark.
LOT said that they will not sue capt. Wrona and rest of the heroic crew.

Unfortunately this article is only in Polish.

http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomos...Wrony_stoja_potezne_prawnicze.html
 
spiritair97
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 14):
LOT will sue Boeing and American company who undertakes service of LOT's B767s at Newark.

I'm surprised they have not done this already. Though I guess they had to figure out their losses and other things that might make a difference in court.

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 14):
LOT said that they will not sue capt. Wrona and rest of the heroic crew.

Good. They do not deserve to be sued. They did save the lives of everybody on the plane.
 
n471wn
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 15):
Good. They do not deserve to be sued. They did save the lives of everybody on the plane.

No but they should no longer fly when they did not know to reset the curcuit breakers
 
spiritair97
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 16):
No but they should no longer fly when they did not know to reset the curcuit breakers

Yes, or they could just undergo retraining to make sure they know how to do everythnig. Not jus tthem, but all of the 767 crews. Just to make sure.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 16):
No but they should no longer fly when they did not know to reset the circuit breakers

It is SOP at most airlines NOT to reset a popped circuit breaker. In this instance, I could see many reasons NOT to reset that particular circuit breaker.

Also remember, the flight circled Warsaw for about an hour, conferring with their maintenance experts. The subject of that circuit breaker was not brought up.

Curiously enough, that circuit breaker is not labeled "Alternate gear extension", it is labeled something completely different, as it protects more than one circuit. If during troubleshooting, one were to see it popped, one might also think it had something to do with the hydraulic issue 7 hours earlier. And ... not knowing exactly what it does ... it would take a brave soul to just merrily push it back in with fingers crossed!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
cat3dual
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:49 pm

If the choice was between resetting a popped circuit breaker and landing my heavy 767 on its belly, I would opt to reset the circuit breaker every time.

"Heroic crew" - give me a break.

Herp derp.
 
spiritair97
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:56 pm

Quoting cat3dual (Reply 19):
"Heroic crew" - give me a break.

They were heroic in a way, in the same way that Captain Sully is a hero. It is not so much because of what they did, but how they did it. Many pilots could have attempted that belly landing, but these pilots pulled it off flawlessly. They saved 231 lives that day and I think it is wrong of you to dispel there actions that day the way you did.
 
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KLASM83
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:02 pm

If I was stupidly rich, I'd buy this 763 and turn it into a wide airplane mansion.   

At least LOT has some clear direction on where to go, now with LPC and how to get some of the $ it lost with its unfortunate landing.
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spiritair97
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:04 pm

Quoting KLASM83 (Reply 21):

If I was stupidly rich, I'd buy this 763 and turn it into a wide airplane mansion.

Good idea, if I were rich, I'd probably fight ya for it  
 
cat3dual
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:31 pm

How a trans-atlantic ETOPS flight was allowed to continue with the center hydraulic system failed departing EWR is beyond me. Needless to say, LOT isn't on my list of airlines to fly on as a passenger.

Any other carrier would've turned around immediately and put the plane on the deck at the departure point. It calls into question the safety culture there. "Get-there-itis" no doubt played a role, given how far stretched the LOT 767 fleet is - they only have a handful of airframes and the pressure to get the bird back to WAW probably played a role. They got it back to WAW alright, on its belly.

You're right. They were heroic in that their ineptitude in piloting SP-LPC didn't result in the deaths of 231 lives.

[Edited 2012-06-28 11:33:39]
 
dcaviation
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:03 pm

Quoting cat3dual (Reply 23):
How a trans-atlantic ETOPS flight was allowed to continue with the center hydraulic system failed departing EWR is beyond me. Needless to say, LOT isn't on my list of airlines to fly on as a passenger.

Any other carrier would've turned around immediately and put the plane on the deck at the departure point. It calls into question the safety culture there. "Get-there-itis" no doubt played a role, given how far stretched the LOT 767 fleet is - they only have a handful of airframes and the pressure to get the bird back to WAW probably played a role. They got it back to WAW alright, on its belly.

You're right. They were heroic in that their ineptitude in piloting SP-LPC didn't result in the deaths of 231 lives.

Get your facts straight before you start mumbling nonsense here. Read the report first, then talk here.
 
cat3dual
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:31 pm

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 24):
Get your facts straight before you start mumbling nonsense here.

What facts do I not have straight?

1. The crew opted to fly across the ocean with degraded hydraulic systems. This alone did not cripple the airplane but does call into question their decision to transit the Atlantic.

2. The aircraft subsequently landed belly-up upon arrival.

3. A c/b was found popped that powered the gear's alternate extension system. The c/b popped provided POWER to the system, and did not control it. Any fault in the altn ext system would have popped CB 4248, which was NOT the c/b that was popped.

We conducted a trial in a simulator at my company with the -300ER with the failed center hydraulic system. We could not extend the gear hydraulically. We pulled c/b C829 and attempted to altn ext the gear. The gear still would not lower electrically (as designed). With the center hydraulic system still failed, and c/b C829 pushed-in (closed), the gear dropped flawlessly. AS DESIGNED.

FUN FACT: The c/b is located in a position such that a brain bag (charts bag) will catch on it and pop it if the bag is not carefully removed and set in place. Some airlines have a guard rail installed on this strip of c/b's to prevent this from happening. I have seen this c/b popped before on many occasions but never on an airplane with the protection strip over them.

Do not lecture me about not having my facts straight when I've sat in the airplane and duplicated the problem to the letter.

[Edited 2012-06-28 12:32:46]
 
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longhauler
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:03 pm

Quoting cat3dual (Reply 19):
If the choice was between resetting a popped circuit breaker and landing my heavy 767 on its belly, I would opt to reset the circuit breaker every time.


Not saying you are wrong ... but a few points to ponder ...

There is a possibility of a center hydraulic system leak, where the fluid remained? Who knows? Then power up an electrical system in the same area? That ... possibly ... has already indicated an electrical problem. I shudder to think of how much time one would have with a centre hydraulic bay fire.

What if you reset the circuit breaker and the alternate gear extension extended the gear ... partially ... then failed again. Remember you don't know why that circuit breaker is out. Now, a landing with partial gear extension might not have the same success as was displayed in Warsaw.

Remember that your number one priority is the safety of the passengers. No one was injured in the landing in Warsaw. The aircraft may never fly again, but .... Boeing builds new ones every day!

Heroes? I am not sure if I agree if they are heroes. Knowing they have a failed centre hydraulic system, and seven hours to think about it ... I'd have the books out looking at every possible angle.

Sully? How much time did he and his crew have to assess and react .... heroes!
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PHX787
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:03 pm

Sad to see it go  

That photo taken of the evacuation is going to be #1 on the photos for months, i think.
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dcaviation
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:24 pm

Quoting cat3dual (Reply 25):
1. The crew opted to fly across the ocean with degraded hydraulic systems. This alone did not cripple the airplane but does call into question their decision to transit the Atlantic.

2. The aircraft subsequently landed belly-up upon arrival.

1. According to LOT's manual. It was safe to continue to its destination.

2. The plane landed belly DOWN. If it landed belly UP, probably nobody would survive.
 
cat3dual
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 28):
The plane landed belly DOWN. If it landed belly UP, probably nobody would survive.

LOL, good point. You got me there but you understand what I was getting at. Is it safe to fly the 767 with the center system failed? Sure. Should you cross an ocean with a degraded system? Probably not.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 26):
There is a possibility of a center hydraulic system leak, where the fluid remained?

The fluid was ejected overboard.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 26):
Remember that your number one priority is the safety of the passengers.

If that were the case, they would have landed at EWR overweight and had the hydraulic hose replaced. Had they done so, SP-LPC would still be flying today.

But they didn't.

Human error is the primary factor in all aviation accidents. It's just a fact.
 
bennett123
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:44 pm

What I find puzzling is that this issue was fixed so quickly when the plane was on it's belly at Warsaw, but the crew + maintenance had hours to fix it in the air, plus any reserve that they still had when they put it down and failed.

If there was any real urgency in fixing the issue, like the BA B777, it might make sense. But surely they had plenty of time to trouble shoot any number of switches.
 
cat3dual
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:45 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 26):
Then power up an electrical system in the same area? That ... possibly ... has already indicated an electrical problem.

If there is exposed wiring in the area of the hydraulic components, I shudder to think of the maintenance practices underway in the LOT hangars.
 
cat3dual
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 30):
What I find puzzling is that this issue was fixed so quickly when the plane was on it's belly at Warsaw, but the crew + maintenance had hours to fix it in the air, plus any reserve that they still had when they put it down and failed.

Exactly.

If there was pooling hydraulic fluid around exposed electrical components, the c/b would have tripped immediately ASSUMING the exposed electrical lines were even RELATED to the affected system. But in this case, the jet was jacked up, the c/b reset, and gear dropped.

But we're too busy here trying to find heroes where none exist.

I know! Someone call Hollywood! There's a movie and money to be made! HEROIC!

[Edited 2012-06-28 14:49:19]
 
airliner777
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:40 am

Quoting cat3dual (Reply 25):
FUN FACT: The c/b is located in a position such that a brain bag (charts bag) will catch on it and pop it if the bag is not carefully removed and set in place.

I've seen this happen twice on our B767s. Always keep an eye at the RAT C/B on the P6 panel. It is very exposed due to its location.

Fly safe!
Airliner777  
 
RVV2011
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:00 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 12):
Something for which I never did get an answer: Was it legal, after the loss of a hydraulic system to continue across the Atlantic, on an ETOPS flight? I understand that Polish law is different. Under Canadian Air Regs, an ETOPS flight could not be performed under such a failure.

That's assuming they knew that they lost the hydraulic system and that it was indeed lost prior to the crossing. Some questions: Is a system fault the same thing as a failure? I recall (perhaps incorrectly) a Polish article on gazeta.pl stating that the pilots said they had thought the problem was resolved after receiving an indication of a fault and only became aware otherwise on approach into Warsaw. The plane operated normally during the flight over the Atlantic. No other specifics were given in the article. If they thought the problem was resolved and received no indications to the contrary, why shouldn't have they continued on? At which point in the flight did it become a failure requiring immediate landing and when were they made aware of this failure? Was it even the same problem (fault vs. failure) before and after the crossing?

Not sure whether any of the facts of the investigation were ever published, but if LOT had any hint of their pilots being at fault in this (negligence, risking a transatlantic crossing), I doubt they would be suing Boeing or anybody else.
 
cat3dual
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:00 am

Quoting airliner777 (Reply 33):
I've seen this happen twice on our B767s. Always keep an eye at the RAT C/B on the P6 panel. It is very exposed due to its location.

I'm glad you chimed in here.

When I saw the video of SP-LPC belly landing for the first time, I immediately thought of this panel and its exposed c/b's near the floor. As I said, the accident was duplicated to the letter by us in the ER simulator...set center hydraulic pressure to zero, pull c/b C829, attempt to lower the gear normally and via ALTN EXT, neither of which would work. Upon reset of c/b C829,the gear drops fine.

Really raises the BS flag up a notch or two when this accident is so easily replicated.

Quoting RVV2011 (Reply 34):
I recall (perhaps incorrectly) a Polish article on gazeta.pl stating that the pilots said they had thought the problem was resolved after receiving an indication of a fault and only became aware otherwise on approach into Warsaw.

The -300ER has a hydraulic fluid quantity indication for the left, center, and right systems on the EICAS displays (the displays in the center of the flight deck normally indication engine status). The EICAS has a number of secondary pages that allow for more in-depth system status displays, albeit not as advanced as aircraft designed in the 1990s onward (e.g. 777). Despite this, the crew should have noticed that their center quantity was zero. This would cause a number of cautions to be displayed on the front pages of the EICAS, as well as a master caution (yellow) light in the face of the captain and first officer.

Redundancy is built into the aircraft such that the flight can continue onto its original destination, the decision to proceed with the transit ultimately with the captain of the flight. I spoke with friends of mine who dispatch wide body aircraft across oceans on a daily basis; while they agree that the captain is the final authority, a center fluid quantity of zero would make the case for them to return the aircraft to base immediately.

I do not believe the center hydraulic system failure caused this accident, the facts known thus far support that assertion. But the flight should have probably been canceled initially departing EWR, which would have prevented the accident from occurring. What began as a simply hydraulic failure, ultimately resulted in a list of judgement errors. We know the end result.
 
kwidenka
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RE: Status Of LOT's SP-LPC: To Be Sold

Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:08 am

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 6):
Will they lease/buy a replacement or wait for the 787s (doesn't seem like their leased replacement from Aerosvit happened?)?

Yes it did happen,not long after the accident.
UR-AAH & UR-AAI are regular in WAW and I believe is mostly deployed on the WAW-YYZ service.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/AeroS...d=3fdc131b0c511ff23a1c676377b9dd0f
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