cle757
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CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:43 pm

http://www.crainscleveland.com/artic...e/20120625/SUB1/306259974/0/SEARCH Just take a walk through the terminal its packed!
Cleveland the best location in the Nation
 
point2point
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:32 pm

Well, I have to say - hooray for CLE.

Living here in Denver, it's quite worrisome in its own way that UA will downsize or abandon DEN. Since there are our own worries, usually little thought is given to CLE. However, when and if thought is given, it is for the positive, in hopes that pmUA will recognize that CLE has value to the system, and the CLE will remain a hub.

So far, CLE has managed to do a good convincing job to the new UA. I think that Cleveland does have what's needed to be a successful hub (hey, it even supports 2 commercial airports in the region) but in the new UA, geography is what is working against it remaining a hub here. But it seems to be strong enough in all of the other factors to make it work as a hub, and it seems the city/community is making an all-out effort that UA see this. Plus, with all of the FFs that they have there, it would be silly to dehub CLE - even if the had 6 flights per day that somehow had connections (heaven help us if so, anyway) it would still be a hub, and UA would be quite foolish in my opinion to alienate the populace there, and leave a big chunk of change there on the table for other carriers. So somehow, CLE will remain a hub in some way, unless of course, the management of UA completely looses its marbles, and although possible, highly improbably.

With that, back to geography, CLE may loose a few flights here and there due to its proximity with ORD, but I don't think that it will be too significant. All things being equal, I think that loosing 15-20% would be on the high range, if CLE looses anything at all. And while geography is working against CLE right now, what Clevelandites (Clevelanders?) need to remember right now is that UA is really pi**ed off at IAH - so take advantage guys..... look at what DEN got! Funny how suddenly UA management is playing nicey now with its other hubs, eh?

At any rate, I think that an LHR, or an LH FRA flight would be quite possible and successful from CLE today, if UA of LH would consider it. The city/community has shown that it can give the new UA what it wants most - $$$$$.

And personally, all the best to CLE. I transferred though there a couple of times years ago - nice airport, basically good location - everything that can make a successful hub work. Keep at it.



 

[Edited 2012-06-28 06:43:34]
 
jmc1975
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:33 pm

Quoting cle757 (Thread starter):
Just take a walk through the terminal its packed!

The boarding areas are likely very dated, small and ineffficient, which helps give this sort of impression.
.......
 
mogandoCI
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:41 pm

CLE is perfectly suited as a Q400 / E-jet / 737 hub. Throw those ERJs away, prune excessive connectivity that's better handled by ORD/IAD, and CLE might just become a self-sustaining focus city instead of suffering the MEM/CVG fate.

At least the CEOs were honest during the merger process that CLE is high priority for trimming.
 
tommy767
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:43 pm

I think everyone was pretty shocked when UA started flying 757s into CLE. Glad to see at there is still an OK amount of mainline presence.

Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
Living here in Denver, it's quite worrisome in its own way that UA will downsize or abandon DEN.

DEN will be fine. The recent issues with WN and HOU just proved that.
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cle757
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:01 pm

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 2):
The boarding areas are likely very dated, small and ineffficient, which helps give this sort of impression.

Not any worse then some other airports..like IAD,parts of IAH,LAX etc etc
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primetimeDC9
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:12 pm

I hope that CLE survives. It is an easy airport to get in and out of, it's easy to navigate, and it is in a good geographic location. For people who have to connect it is nice to be able to avoid mega-hubs which have more delays on both the inbound and outbound side of things. With the demise of Pittsburgh and Cincinnati you would think that UA would be smart to hold on to Cleveland as these airports definately have there appeal to travelers (certainly better than connecting through Philly or New York for example). For the record Cleveland has just as much terminal space as 90% of the other airports out there.
 
masseybrown
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:38 pm

Quoting primetimeDC9 (Reply 6):
With the demise of Pittsburgh and Cincinnati you would think that UA would be smart to hold on to Cleveland

I think an excellent case can be made that CLE (with its Michigan, Indiana, Wisconsin, New York state, Pennsylvania, and other feeds) diverts more traffic from DTW, 83nm away, than it does from ORD. As a corollary, if UA closed CLE, DL would be a bigger winner than UA.

If it loses a ton of money, it's obviously not worth keeping. If it loses just a little, or is actually profitable as the article indicates, why close it and eat the write-offs? Plus, UA would still be on the hook for paying off the Concourse D debt.
 
N766UA
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:52 pm

No no, you don't understand. CLE will close. Probably tomorrow, in fact. There's zero reason for a hub to be there, even if it makes money, because EWR and ORD are bigger and more aviation dorks like them better.

This is obviously just propaganda.

[Edited 2012-06-28 08:53:11]
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point2point
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:09 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 8):
No no, you don't understand. CLE will close. Probably tomorrow, in fact. There's zero reason for a hub to be there, even if it makes money, because EWR and ORD are bigger and more aviation dorks like them better.

This is obviously just propaganda.

I think that there's a lot of really good snark here...... I think?


 
 
jetskipper
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:18 pm

The new rumor via higher ups in the sCAL flight operations department is that CLE will be down to 13 CAL 737 departures a day starting February. CLE may be making money, but SFO is far and away the most profitable hub for UA and they are wanting to redistribute their 737 fleet west.
 
N766UA
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:24 pm

Quoting jetskipper (Reply 10):

The new rumor via higher ups in the sCAL flight operations department is that CLE will be down to 13 CAL 737 departures a day starting February. CLE may be making money, but SFO is far and away the most profitable hub for UA and they are wanting to redistribute their 737 fleet west.

Having grown up with nothing but CO 737's around, that would be weird! However, A319's and 320's can do nearly the same job, and those have been multiplying like rabbits at CLE lately.
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cle757
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:25 pm

Quoting jetskipper (Reply 10):
The new rumor via higher ups in the sCAL flight operations department is that CLE will be down to 13 CAL 737 departures a day starting February

Maybe, but how many Airbuses and 757's will there be?
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codc10
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting jetskipper (Reply 10):
The new rumor via higher ups in the sCAL flight operations department is that CLE will be down to 13 CAL 737 departures a day starting February.

737 departures, not all mainline. 737s are replacing a lot of Airbus/757 frequencies at the s-UA hubs and the converse is happening at s-CO hubs. I suspect CLE will follow IAH in a trend toward more s-UA metal as 737s migrate to DEN/SFO/ORD.
 
tommy767
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 13):

I feel there was more sUa metal at CLE about a month ago. CLE-LAX/SEA are back to 738 and 739 now for instance.
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airzim
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:46 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
So far, CLE has managed to do a good convincing job to the new UA. I think that Cleveland does have what's needed to be a successful hub (hey, it even supports 2 commercial airports in the region) but in the new UA, geography is what is working against it remaining a hub here. But it seems to be strong enough in all of the other factors to make it work as a hub, and it seems the city/community is making an all-out effort that UA see this. Plus, with all of the FFs that they have there, it would be silly to dehub CLE - even if the had 6 flights per day that somehow had connections (heaven help us if so, anyway) it would still be a hub, and UA would be quite foolish in my opinion to alienate the populace there, and leave a big chunk of change there on the table for other carriers. So somehow, CLE will remain a hub in some way, unless of course, the management of UA completely looses its marbles, and although possible, highly improbably.

Nothing written above makes any sense. You write like CLE is a human being with the ability to control it's own destiny. Either it's profitable to operate a hub there, or it's not, and many factors control the fate of Cleveland which are not always in it's direct control. You can only whittle a hub down so much before it collapses. If you don't have enough inflows to push downstream flights in the absence of a decent local demand, the hub will die. That's what's happened at MEM, CVG, and PIT. It is highly likely to happen at CLE at some point. This is not because Chicago lost their marbles, it's because the economics don't make sense anymore.

Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
With that, back to geography, CLE may loose a few flights here and there due to its proximity with ORD, but I don't think that it will be too significant. All things being equal, I think that loosing 15-20% would be on the high range, if CLE looses anything at all. And while geography is working against CLE right now, what Clevelandites (Clevelanders?) need to remember right now is that UA is really pi**ed off at IAH - so take advantage guys..... look at what DEN got! Funny how suddenly UA management is playing nicey now with its other hubs, eh?

Here's the difference with DEN, any destination from CLE can be served from either IAH, ORD or EWR. Much of the upper midwest and and smaller western markets can only be served through DEN in the United network. De-hubbing DEN would be a huge hole in the portfolio and would cede the entire market to DL (SLC, MSP). Denver is not going anywhere.
 
codc10
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:46 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 14):
I feel there was more sUa metal at CLE about a month ago. CLE-LAX/SEA are back to 738 and 739 now for instance.

The schedules are pretty fluid. Metal is moving all around the system right now.
 
point2point
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:16 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
Nothing written above makes any sense.

Why?

Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
any destination from CLE can be served from either IAH, ORD or EWR.

Really?


 
 
N766UA
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:33 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
it's because the economics don't make sense anymore.

What about "the hub is profitable" doesn't make sense to you? Hub makes money, hub stays. Regardless of whether ORD or EWR could theoretically take the traffic (EWR can't even handle it's own traffic without massive delays), if CLE is profitable it'll stay. Why do you think it can't be profitable?

Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
De-hubbing DEN would be a huge hole in the portfolio and would cede the entire market to DL (SLC, MSP). Denver is not going anywhere.

WHAT market? If UAL doesn't care about CLE, why would they care about Casper, Cedar Rapids, or Bozeman?!

[Edited 2012-06-28 10:36:24]
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joeman
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:34 pm

From the actual article:

...said Greg Hart, United's senior vice president/network. He added, “Year over year, (Cleveland Hopkins International Airport's) performance is better than some other hubs in terms of profitability."...

Don't know if that means "some other" UA or some other airline hub ops, don't care. Either way, its positive news, period, and something for the vulchers eagerly waiting for the demise that would satisfy their crystal ball predictions to chew on.

That said, anything can happen, including UA squeezing CLE with slow incrementally higher fares and fewer flights especially now that cheerleading movement exists along with the residual publicity.

I sincerely hope it lasts, continues, grows...but it wouldn't surprise me if UA were to rake CLE over the barrel further like I described above and continue to garner support for a "hub" consisting of even 50 or fewer dailies, just so they remain #1 in terms of flight numbers. Take the already high O&D% of seats filled now and squeeze more airfare, thereby killing off the demand which the hugely limited competition can't fill.

Doom & gloom, but anything is possible in this ridiculous industry and NOTHING is forever, NOTHING...
 
klwright69
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:38 pm

The demise of the CLE is always the talk of the town here at a.net. But it seems to hang on.

Quoting jetskipper (Reply 10):
The new rumor via higher ups in the sCAL flight operations department is that CLE will be down to 13 CAL 737 departures a day starting February. CLE may be making money, but SFO is far and away the most profitable hub for UA and they are wanting to redistribute their 737 fleet west.

What is described here is a near total drawdown. I think if this situation were the case in February, I think we would know this with more certainty by now.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 16):
The schedules are pretty fluid. Metal is moving all around the system right now.

I'm just praying they move fewer A319/320s to my hometown airport, since those are terrible for F upgrade chances, even when using miles or instruments
 
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airzim
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:34 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 17):
Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
Nothing written above makes any sense.

Why?

What is CLE doing to show UA that it should keep the hub? Are the suddenly showing up in droves at the airport buying tickets to LAS.

Let's get serious here. The City has only a few options available. They can reduce rent, invest in infrastructure (mostly through bonds), or other tax incentives. All these have negative implications to the City in the short term. And the benefit to United might still be outweighed by more profitable flying.

Quoting point2point (Reply 17):
Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
any destination from CLE can be served from either IAH, ORD or EWR.

Really?

Yes. Can you name one that can't?

Quoting N766UA (Reply 18):
Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
it's because the economics don't make sense anymore.

What about "the hub is profitable" doesn't make sense to you? Hub makes money, hub stays. Regardless of whether ORD or EWR could theoretically take the traffic (EWR can't even handle it's own traffic without massive delays), if CLE is profitable it'll stay. Why do you think it can't be profitable?

I didn't say CLE is, I implied "if." If there's more money to be had shifting flying from somewhere else and the markets can be supported from another hub, yes CLE is a goner.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 18):
Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
De-hubbing DEN would be a huge hole in the portfolio and would cede the entire market to DL (SLC, MSP). Denver is not going anywhere.

WHAT market? If UAL doesn't care about CLE, why would they care about Casper, Cedar Rapids, or Bozeman?!

Your two statements are incongruous.
 
N766UA
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 22):
I didn't say CLE is, I implied "if." If there's more money to be had shifting flying from somewhere else and the markets can be supported from another hub, yes CLE is a goner.

I don't think the second part of that statement is true. How can you support CLE-Anywhere if you don't fly through CLE? The market to be supported is Cleveland, and it requires service to X number of cities. You can't de-hub Cleveland, move everything to Chicago or Newark, and say "the market is now supported here" because it isn't. Cleveland is the market.
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tommy767
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 18):

EWR cannot handle the traffic. Slots are maxed out. CLE isn't even in the northeast!

The argument is CLE vs. ORD. And if O&D is strong in CLE (which it is) I don't forsee it going away.
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flyguy89
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:15 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 24):
The argument is CLE vs. ORD. And if O&D is strong in CLE (which it is) I don't forsee it going away.

I’d like to see CLE stay but the numbers just aren’t bearing it out. They’ve slowly been decreasing service levels over the years and are now operating the minimum number of departures they’re legally obligated to maintain per the contract they signed after the merger. If they ever grow above this minimum amount in the next couple years, I would be more than glad to be proven wrong…just a shame, connecting in CLE is always a pleasure.
 
point2point
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 22):
What is CLE doing to show UA that it should keep the hub? Are the suddenly showing up in droves at the airport buying tickets to LAS.

They're showing up in droves at the airport and buying tickets on UA to anywhere and everywhere, including LAS.

Quoting airzim (Reply 22):
Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
any destination from CLE can be served from either IAH, ORD or EWR.

I want to fly from BOS to CLE. How are IAH, ORD or EWR going to help? Oh, I guess transfer at delay-prone EWR for such a short flight.... or backtrack through delay prone ORD? Then B6, or someone will certainly jump in and take over the lucrative O&D that exists on the route. Same for many other routes to/from CLE.

There's some 3M in the catchment (maybe even more) and CLE had roughly 10M pax last year with O&D near 70%. And this is after already a lot of cutting by the former CO. Just leave some 7M pax at the table for others, with yields that are quite lucrative?

All I'm saying is it seems that UA has a good thing going in CLE, why mess it up when maybe it can be improved some and it will even produce more?

Quoting airzim (Reply 22):
If there's more money to be had shifting flying from somewhere else and the markets can be supported from another hub, yes CLE is a goner.

Of course, but I don't get a sense that what the posted article is saying...... in fact, the article is saying that CLE is "better than some hubs in terms of profitability"


 
 
mogandoCI
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 26):
I want to fly from BOS to CLE. How are IAH, ORD or EWR going to help? Oh, I guess transfer at delay-prone EWR for such a short flight.... or backtrack through delay prone ORD? Then B6, or someone will certainly jump in and take over the lucrative O&D that exists on the route. Same for many other routes to/from CLE.

Playing devil's advocate here - you can also do BOS-IAD-CLE
 
N766UA
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:57 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 27):
Playing devil's advocate here - you can also do BOS-IAD-CLE

IAD can be horribly delay-prone too, especially when thunderstorms fire up. CLE is absolutely the best westward-connecting hub in the system for those in the NE. If only it weren't all freakin' RJs...
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strfyr51
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:18 pm

A Long as CLE doesn't make the mistake of Taxing UAL like they were doing to CAL?? Then we ehould stay there as long as we can. But if they forget that UAL doesn't NEED CLE to make it?? Then we could and Should close the hub and move that Hub to a southeast city like TPA or MCO..
 
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airzim
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 23):
I don't think the second part of that statement is true. How can you support CLE-Anywhere if you don't fly through CLE? The market to be supported is Cleveland, and it requires service to X number of cities. You can't de-hub Cleveland, move everything to Chicago or Newark, and say "the market is now supported here" because it isn't. Cleveland is the market.

What argument are you making or refuting? I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 24):
EWR cannot handle the traffic. Slots are maxed out. CLE isn't even in the northeast!

Not true in the slightest. EWR can handle lots more traffic, it might not be able to absorb more frequency but it could easily handle larger gauge.

Quoting point2point (Reply 26):
They're showing up in droves at the airport and buying tickets on UA to anywhere and everywhere, including LAS

Really? I don't think the facts support this statement in the slightest. The O&D traffic from CLE is not large to begin with.

Quoting point2point (Reply 26):
I want to fly from BOS to CLE. How are IAH, ORD or EWR going to help? Oh, I guess transfer at delay-prone EWR for such a short flight.... or backtrack through delay prone ORD? Then B6, or someone will certainly jump in and take over the lucrative O&D that exists on the route. Same for many other routes to/from CLE.

If UA de-hubs CLE, and there's demand from BOS to CLE, someone else might satisfy it (B6) instead. You're thinking too myopically. There's no rule that says UA needs to satisfy every market and if they don't hub CLE anymore, it's likely they'll leave those markets completely.

Let me repeat again, I'm not suggesting that CLE isn't going to remain a hub. What I'm saying is if there is more profitable flying in markets, CLE is in real trouble.

I fly into CLE often. It's busy at 8am and 5pm. The rest of the day it's crickets.
 
chicawgo
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 29):
move that Hub to a southeast city like TPA or MCO..

Hahaha yeah that's exactly what UA needs... a major hub in Florida. I'm sure that's at the top of their list!

Anyway, they kind of have a mini-hub in FLL with the old CO Connection. Just don't have much feed into it!
 
N766UA
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 30):
Not true in the slightest.

No, that's absolutely true. Newark is saturated; it can't even reliably handle the traffic it has now.
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point2point
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:03 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 30):
Let me repeat again, I'm not suggesting that CLE isn't going to remain a hub. What I'm saying is if there is more profitable flying in markets, CLE is in real trouble.

Lordy, lordy, lordy..... after all of that, somehow I think that we're in agreement??

And personally, I would like to see CLE do well with UA, and hopefully they will remain a hub. And there are a number of reasons (at least I think so) as to why I think that they can.

All the best for everyone.....




 
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:23 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 18):
What about "the hub is profitable" doesn't make sense to you? Hub makes money, hub stays.

What I wonder is, what percentage of UA CLE traffic is connecting nowadays? The hub has been whittled down so much, and has so many RJ's, that it may be mostly O & D. WN has remained small at CLE and has indicated they are going to keep the FL CAK operation open; JetBlue isn't at CLE. So there probably isn't as much pressure on yields as some airports CLE's size (think the big WN focus operations at BNA, for instance, or at STL). How much is CLE a hub nowadays, and how much is it a focus city?

Jim
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STT757
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:53 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 30):
Not true in the slightest. EWR can handle lots more traffic, it might not be able to absorb more frequency but it could easily handle larger gauge.

Exactly, replacing a 50 seat ERJ with a 180 seat 737 more than triples the capacity just on that one specific flight.
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AADC10
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 18):
What about "the hub is profitable" doesn't make sense to you? Hub makes money, hub stays. Regardless of whether ORD or EWR could theoretically take the traffic (EWR can't even handle it's own traffic without massive delays), if CLE is profitable it'll stay. Why do you think it can't be profitable?

Profitability of a hub is difficult to evaluate. A hub is a connection point and airlines hope to have as much O&D as they can get. CO used CLE because EWR is slot restricted and they handed DEN to UA. Now merged, ORD, EWR and IAD have stronger O&D than CLE and ORD has greatly improved its delay problem. IAD also added a runway and has plenty of capacity, although UA has a miserable concourse.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 24):
The argument is CLE vs. ORD. And if O&D is strong in CLE (which it is) I don't forsee it going away.

As above, even if O&D is "strong" at CLE, it is certainly better at ORD. CLE is going to go CVG.

Quoting point2point (Reply 26):
They're showing up in droves at the airport and buying tickets on UA to anywhere and everywhere, including LAS.

Loads are meaningless. They are primarily a function of yield management and UA's bad habit of aggressive overbooking. Just about all flights to everywhere are full all of the time. It is not representative of demand, yield or least of all profitability.

I like Cleveland but from a business standpoint, de-hubbing makes sense. DEN is next on the block but it has the advantage of being further from other hubs.
 
point2point
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:42 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 36):
As above, even if O&D is "strong" at CLE, it is certainly better at ORD.

The article states that the performance at CLE is better than other hubs in terms of profitability. So 1) there's profit there and 2) then whatever hubs CLE is more profitable than, logic would dictate that more flights would need to be moved to CLE, and away from those hubs less profitable.

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 36):
CLE is going to go CVG.

I would kindly disagree with you there, although the eventual fate of CVG has really yet tbd. Assuming that CVG will eventually become basically just DL flights to DL hubs, I'd venture that it won't be as severe at CLE, although I'll give you that I really wouldn't venture much in this rough and tumble business.

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 36):
Loads are meaningless. They are primarily a function of yield management and UA's bad habit of aggressive overbooking. Just about all flights to everywhere are full all of the time. It is not representative of demand, yield or least of all profitability.

Again, the article is stating PROFIT. Again, from the article, CLE = PROFIT.

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 36):
I like Cleveland but from a business standpoint, de-hubbing makes sense.

Again, I would kindly disagree with you there.

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 36):
DEN is next on the block

Yep, since the merger, DEN has seen additions of AMA, DAL, MAF, FAI, GFK, SHV, ANC go yearly, and in 2013, NRT with the first of their 787s. Did I leave anything out? Oh, yes, they did lose the OAK n/s. So yes, I can see DEN on the chopping block.


 
 
southwest737500
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:53 pm

I feel if the hub is making money why downsize.
Next flight: TUL-ATL-CLT CRJ900 and MD88
 
flyguy89
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 38):
I feel if the hub is making money why downsize.

Businesses are about maximizing profit as well, so if assets from a profitable operation can be making even more money elsewhere, then that business has an obligation to it's shareholders to pursue that objective.
 
drerx7
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:16 pm

I really don't want to hi-jack this thread...but you DEN fans have some facts misconstrued...

Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
need to remember right now is that UA is really pi**ed off at IAH - so take advantage guys..... look at what DEN got! Funny how suddenly UA management is playing nicey now with its other hubs, eh?

DEN didn't get anything that came at the expense of IAH due to the debacle they had going...UA had there own separate negotiations to have that tremendous debt forgiven, as such they had to increase flying, by 4% IIRC. DEN-NRT was planned well before WN/HOU/IAH/UA issue started. They announced it in conjunction with the announcement of DEN forgiving UA debt (much to WN's chagrin).

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 4):
DEN will be fine. The recent issues with WN and HOU just proved that.

UA has not done anything drastic at IAH except for the usual fall capacity reductions, as evidenced by the OAG threads. Any additional capacity cuts specific to IAH are coming at the expense of the loss of Colgan flying, 753 redeployment to replace 767 mods, E+ing of the CO fleet, and accelerated retirement of 735s and 762. Of course this is not an attack on DEN at all...just pointing out facts. BTW UA has upgauge flying at IAH at the expense of DEN. 757s swapped for 738/739s. IAH also has seen more additions in the past 2 years by UA than in the past 15 by CO.

Quoting point2point (Reply 37):
Yep, since the merger, DEN has seen additions of AMA, DAL, MAF, FAI, GFK, SHV, ANC go yearly, and in 2013, NRT with the first of their 787s. Did I leave anything out? Oh, yes, they did lose the OAK n/s. So yes, I can see DEN on the chopping block.

Point of fact, the 787 for DEN will not necessarily be with the first of the 787s. The first are coming online in September...DEN-NRT doesn't start till March 2013...sounds second batch to me. Which beeeeeeeeeegggggs the question, WHERE will the IAH-AKL bird go? Its not DEN-NRT. Another source has said that IAH-LOS will in fact be the first international 787 route. I don't know how accurate that is though. What we do know is that right now IAH is the sole pilot base for the 787.

In regards to CLE, I can see CLE hanging around for quite a bit as UA has upgauged the market nicely. I see a continued role in the combined network for CLE.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
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BNE
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:27 pm

I think a small history lesson would be needed.

One of the main reasons that Continental ended up in Cleveland was that United scaled down there presence there during the early 1990s.

Same with Denver both Continental and United had their hubs based there.

I think Cleveland will loose some routes but it will stay a hub for the short term.
Why fly non stop when you can connect
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:34 pm

The big question is what happens to CLE when UA's costs jump (as they will when UA signs new labor deals) and as UA dumps most of it's 50 seater fleet?

Part of MEM's and CVG's demise has come as DL dumps the 50 seater....an aircraft that overwhelmingly dominates those hubs (as it does at CLE). Those hubs simply don't generate enough local demand to fill larger aircraft without becoming over-reliant on lower-yield connecting flows. The same again is true of CLE.

However, right now, UA is behind DL in it's ability to upgauge to larger aircraft, so they're stuck with a lot of 50 seaters which is to CLE's benefit.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 35):

Exactly, replacing a 50 seat ERJ with a 180 seat 737 more than triples the capacity just on that one specific flight.

Except that UA has limited facilities to accomodate larger aircraft. You can't park nearly as many 737's as you can ERJ's. So yes, UA can upgauge some at EWR, but there are real limits on that too.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:43 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 27):
Playing devil's advocate here - you can also do BOS-IAD-CLE


That's funny because I do IAD-CLE-BOS occasionally when non-stop WAS-BOS fares go through the roof.
I pay a lower fare and almost always get upgraded on the CLE-BOS leg.

It's absolutely non-intuitive
 
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flylku
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:03 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
Living here in Denver, it's quite worrisome in its own way that UA will downsize or abandon DEN.

I just don't see that happening for the reason stated below:

Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
Here's the difference with DEN, any destination from CLE can be served from either IAH, ORD or EWR. Much of the upper midwest and and smaller western markets can only be served through DEN in the United network.
...are we there yet?
 
ncflyer
Posts: 504
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:05 am

As a clevelander I must say fares are though the roof here compared to what they used to be just a few years ago and compared to nearby PIT. I know it's hard to tell yields from my individual experience but it seems to me like ua has found a nice balance of supply and demand and is able to squeeze more money out of the market.
 
skycub
Posts: 318
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:06 am

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 20):
The demise of the CLE is always the talk of the town here at a.net.

Really? I seriously thought that the demise of TOLEDO was the talk of the town here at a.net.

 
My opinions are my own. They are not representative of my employer, my union or my co-workers. They are all mine.
 
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jetpixx
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:04 am

First off, I am originally from CLE...and I hope the day never comes where UA screws my hometown for a second time.

However, UA reminds me of LeBron James. We all know the day is coming when they will leave...it is just a matter of if, not when. Sadly, CLE (sports or otherwise) usually experiences more disappointment than success, although things are certainly on the comeback. I hope UA stays, but experience tells me it just won't happen - unless they start making money hand over fist. A small profit, it still likely won't matter.
 
point2point
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:20 am

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 40):
but you DEN fans have some facts misconstrued...

Oh for heaven's sakes....   

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 40):
DEN didn't get anything that came at the expense of IAH due to the debacle they had going...UA had there own separate negotiations to have that tremendous debt forgiven,

Yes, this is true, but it is also curious as to the timing of all of this IIRC..... CO announces IAH-AKL, the merger between UA and CO is announced and then happens, a bit of time goes by, the City of Houston backs the WN FIS facilities at HOU that UA vehemently objects to, and the announcement of the first 787 route by pmUA/CO is DEN-NRT, after the City of Denver and DEN agree to big concessions for UA there. To many, including myself, others here on a.net, and even some in media, this looked like a snub to IAH and the City of Houston for its backing of WN, and UA basically saying here - "see what we can do to a city that doesn't do what we want, and see what we can do to a city that does do what we want." And now UA is nicey-nice with CLE, the UA hub that's supposed to be done away with, because UA told Cleveland to up passengers, and Cleveland responded in kind, eh? So although factually what you posted is correct, my post went with the general flow of the current perception...... but calling it misconstrued? Really?

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 40):
UA has not done anything drastic at IAH except for the usual fall capacity reductions, as evidenced by the OAG threads. Any additional capacity cuts specific to IAH are coming at the expense of the loss of Colgan flying, 753 redeployment to replace 767 mods, E ing of the CO fleet, and accelerated retirement of 735s and 762. Of course this is not an attack on DEN at all...just pointing out facts. BTW UA has upgauge flying at IAH at the expense of DEN. 757s swapped for 738/739s. IAH also has seen more additions in the past 2 years by UA than in the past 15 by CO.

Yep, I agree again, IAH has been getting seats added at the expense of DEN..... but wasn't that the whole purpose of this merger of equals? To right-size aircraft? To economize traffic patterns? Yet the poster's statement went with being more in line with the flow of the current perception. Again, how is this misconstrued?

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 40):
Point of fact, the 787 for DEN will not necessarily be with the first of the 787s. The first are coming online in September...DEN-NRT doesn't start till March 2013...sounds second batch to me. Which beeeeeeeeeegggggs the question, WHERE will the IAH-AKL bird go? Its not DEN-NRT. Another source has said that IAH-LOS will in fact be the first international 787 route. I don't know how accurate that is though. What we do know is that right now IAH is the sole pilot base for the 787.

Hmmmm, let's see now..... I'm pretty sure here that I was responding to the poster about DEN being cut with my sense of jest and irony in this situation, and I thought that I would be permitted some syntactic latitude here. Oh well..... But as pretty much common wisdom will allow us, I think that we all will assume that really the first of the 787s delivered to UA will most likely be run on domestic routes, in order to get pilots, FA, others familiar with the 787, and those have not been announced yet, eh? Per your timetable, this will be about six months, and after that, the first route that the 787 was really designed for and actually announced and loaded into the UA system will be DEN-NRT. And to think that DEN paid some $22M (in paydowns, debt-forgiveness, whatever?) for this, maybe rightly so. I actually wonder if this is the highest incentive ever given for a single route, huh? At any rate, I don't know who your source is, and I don't know that IAH-LOS is going to actually be the first UA 787 route. We'll all just have to wait and see on that one I guess, eh? In the meantime, DEN-NRT is loaded, and after the six months of domestic runs and getting familiar with the bird, it will, from where things stand as of now and we can verify, be going from DEN-NRT. And as things stand now, it would appear that the first of the UA 787 deliveries, used as designed, will be DEN-NRT. I don't know what is so misconstrued about that either, other than that we know that domestic runs will be done, and a posting here of a source who says that IAH-LOS will actually be the first route.

This is a CLE thread, and personally, all I would like is for CLE to remain a successful and busy UA hub, and for all the best to happen for everyone there. And then jeeeesch..... so much chatter.....

This is a.net, after all.......




 
 
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STT757
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RE: CLE Doing Pretty Good For UA

Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:44 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
Except that UA has limited facilities to accomodate larger aircraft. You can't park nearly as many 737's as you can ERJ's. So yes, UA can upgauge some at EWR, but there are real limits on that too.



The difference is very small, UA has their Q400s and ERJs using what are traditionally mainline gates that handled anything from a 737 to 777. The Q400s are using un-modified mainline gates in the C-2 concourse, they take up almost as much space as a 737. Whether they put a Q400 or a 737 into those gates the gate capacity is the same.

With the ERJs they modified six mainline gates at Terminal A by adding double jetways, squeezing two ERJs into a space where one 737 would occupy. There are also 3 unmodified gates at Terminal A UA utilizes. If they removed the double jetways at Terminal A they would have a total of 67 mainline gates at EWR, 58 at Terminal C and 9 at Terminal A. That doesn't include the International gates at Terminal B UA utilizes for arrivals.
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