olddominion727
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New Domestic HA Routes?

Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:10 pm

I am very encouraged with HA's expansion. It's been needed for quite some time. My question is what are the major route contenders for 'aloha' in their city?

I think either MSP-HNL, DEN-HNL? Maybe even opening up another island to mainland service like KOA? KOA-SEA, KOA-OAK, KOA-SAN, KOA-LAS?

Any idea when the A332 is coming to SJC?
 
hnl-jack
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:44 pm

Doubt that we'll see new cities on the mainland in the near future for a couple of reasons. First, the Asia routes are simply too hot right now. Although, I was very surprised at the Brisbane addition. HKG/HNL would be my pick for the most likely route at the moment. Secondly, I believe they just took delivery of the last A-330 they'll receive this year. If correct, it will be 2013 before they receive additional aircraft for expansion.
 
KLAXAirport
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:09 pm

Just like already said, I highly doubt HA will add any new U.S. destinations for a while  

HA is definately focusing more on Asia/Oceania and just like HNL-Jack said, I believe HKG/HNL will be HA next route.

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TWA772LR
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:19 pm

DEN, DFW, MSP, DTW, IAD, SLC would be great ones. The maybes would be IAH and STL. Maybe more routes from Kona and Maui to PDX, SFO, IAH, DFW, JFK, IAD. If HA does anymore domestic expansion, I think it would be from KOA and OGG.
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mplsjefe
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:33 pm

MSP is hurting for seasonal HA service since DL cut MSP-HNL.
 
BMI727
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:38 pm

You have to understand that once you get east of the Rockies, Hawaii's attractiveness as a destination drops. Cost, distance, and crossing time zones becomes more inconvenient compared to Florida or the Caribbean. There just aren't that many flights from the eastern 2/3 of the US to Hawaii, and many of the ones that do exist are mainline carriers flying from their hubs with passengers fed in from many locations.

If Hawaiian wants to make more destinations in the eastern part of the US viable, they should probably find themselves a codeshare partner to feed the flights. Otherwise I see it being limited to probably Chicago, New York, Denver, and maybe Washington.
Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 3):
DEN, DFW, MSP, DTW, IAD, SLC would be great ones.

Denver would work most likely. Dallas and Washington would be very borderline. Almost impossible on the others.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 3):
The maybes would be IAH and STL.

Houston would be very dicey. Not a chance in St. Louis.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 3):
Maybe more routes from Kona and Maui to PDX, SFO, IAH, DFW, JFK, IAD.

Hawaiian might be able to eek out a few weekly frequencies between Maui and New York (definitely with an eastbound stop though), but Houston, Dallas and Washington are probably all nonstarters.

[Edited 2012-06-30 12:41:06]
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cedarjet
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:21 pm

Quoting mplsjefe (Reply 4):
MSP is hurting for seasonal HA service since DL cut MSP-HNL.

Yes, this is true - no nonstop service to Hawaii. First time since the 70s I should think.

Do HA ever run widebodies on inter-island service? Scheduled? Or only when Aloha went bust or some kind of seasonal thing? Would love to fly a 767-300ER or one of their gorgeous new A330-200s from Honolulu to Maui.
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MAV88
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 3):
DEN, DFW, MSP, DTW, IAD, SLC would be great ones. The maybes would be IAH and STL. Maybe more routes from Kona and Maui to PDX, SFO, IAH, DFW, JFK, IAD. If HA does anymore domestic expansion, I think it would be from KOA and OGG.

I think you could put DTW and STL as highly unlikely. Unless there is some feed on the DTW end, it would be a stretch.

If you think STL could work, you might as well throw BOS, MCO, MIA, etc. onto the list.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:09 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 6):
Do HA ever run widebodies on inter-island service? Scheduled? Or only when Aloha went bust or some kind of seasonal thing?

No, they do not run anything other than 717s on interisland flights currently. The only time they have EVER run 767s scheduled on HNL-OGG was in the months following AQ's shut-down. The 763 freed up some 717s to add additional flights to LIH, KOA & ITO until they aquired more 717s later in 2008.

It ran 3-4 roundtrips per day with block times of about 45 minutes and turn times of 60-75 minutes.

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wnflyguy
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:41 pm

It's rumored B6 is going to sublease one LGB slot to Hawaii to tap into the OC market and connection to B6..pipe dream
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compensateme
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:50 pm

Quoting mplsjefe (Reply 4):
MSP is hurting for seasonal HA service since DL cut MSP-HNL.

If DL, behind the support of a very large hub, had trouble finding success with MSP-HNL, what leads you to believe HA's -- which would need to fill 270 seats with local traffic -- fortunes would be different?
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ridgid727
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:30 am

The Hawaii Visitors Bureau keeps great stats on where visitors/flights arrive from etc. There are lots of pages and different sets of matrix to follow, but its all there.

http://www.hawaiitourismauthority.or...%202012%20Visitor%20Stats%20NR.pdf
 
as739x
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:56 am

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
Any idea when the A332 is coming to SJC?

Not holding my breath. The 767 is the perfect size for the route. I also don't believe HA has the equipment as they seem to be eyeing more Asia routes were the A330 is perfect.
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:42 am

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 9):
It's rumored B6 is going to sublease one LGB slot to Hawaii to tap into the OC market and connection to B6..pipe dream

I wouldnt be too surprised. That would not be the craziest thing but can you imagine widebody service in the current trailers. Those trailers are so full already it must be when the new terminal opens? I havnt been to LGB for a few months and last i was there and usually its packed
 
SurfandSnow
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:00 am

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
I am very encouraged with HA's expansion.

I too am very encouraged with their ongoing expansion efforts! I flew HA about 10 years ago, when they were the airline with about a half dozen West Coast gateways, interisland trunk routes, and the pair of niche South Pacific routes. Now their network stretches to the East Coast, Australia, Southeast Asia, and Northeast Asia! It is all the more impressive when you consider the fact that other U.S. carriers like B6 and VX have almost no further expansion plans at this time. Who knows where HA could go next...

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
It's been needed for quite some time.

Needed?!? Well, I don't know if I would go that far. As beautiful as Hawaii is, I highly doubt most people NEED to go on vacation there  . As for those lucky enough to live in Hawaii, why would you ever NEED to leave paradise?

One thing is for sure, though. As other airlines serving Hawaii have gone bust or slashed capacity, HA has done a great job filling the void. As JL cut back in the throes of bankruptcy, HA aggressively entered the Japanese market. When AQ and TZ both went out of business in 2008, HA beefed up interisland capacity and added OAK to the network. I have no idea if the recent decision to add BNE had anything to do with the abrupt failure of Air Australia, but I would imagine that ill-fated airline proved to HA that there was a viable market between BNE and Hawaii.

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
My question is what are the major route contenders for 'aloha' in their city?

Well, we already have two more long haul international routes on the horizon, so I wouldn't be expecting much more in the way of new routes for quite some time. Though, it's always possible they will shuffle capacity around a bit, especially from the fledgling OGG "hub".

I certainly wouldn't call HNL "their" (HA's) city, that's for sure. The likes of UA and DL are very big in the HNL market as well, and many foreign carriers do quite well when it comes to the traffic to/from their home countries. For example, Canadian airlines have a knack for handily beating any and all U.S. carrier competition on the Canada-Hawaii routes.

So, what routes are the most likely contenders? Well, all of the expansion has been international, save for the new JFK route that had (apparently) been heavily rumored for years. I would expect this trend to continue, as there are far more viable opportunities in the international realm - typically with little or no competition - than in the hyper-competitive domestic market. Keep in mind that as more and more U.S. airlines get ETOPS and start serving Hawaii (AS, G4, likely also WN and VX), there are less and less profitable/viable opportunities for HA to exploit when it comes to Hawaii-U.S. mainland.

When it comes to potential new international routes, the important thing to keep in mind is the Visa Waiver Program (VWP). HA relies primarily on inbound tourist traffic to fill its planes with profitable O&D. It is very easy for a Japanese or Australian person to visit the U.S., they simply answer a few questions online and they are good to go. Not so for a Chinese or Malaysian person, even a casual tourist, that must jump through hoops (fees, consular interviews, etc.) to get the appropriate visa for the trip. HA in the past wanted some U.S.-China frequencies, but has since stated that China is not a viable market under the current visa rules (too few Chinese citizens are willing/able to get visas for their vacations to Hawaii). It is no coincidence that HA has chosen to add Japan, South Korea, and Australia to its network, as these are all VWP countries whose citizens can easily visit the U.S. The addition of HNL-MNL is a mystery to me, but the unusually close historic political, military, and economic ties between the U.S. and Philippines may override the inherent difficulties that Filipinos face in visiting the U.S. With that in mind, I would not be surprised to see further expansion into VWP countries. In Japan, there is the obvious NGO, and perhaps also HIJ. In Australia there is MEL, and perhaps also markets like CNS, OOL, ADL, or PER - the latter really only making sense if HA offers connectivity to and from the U.S. mainland. Other VWP markets could include AKL and SIN, but they may simply be too small and competitive to be worth HA's while. Taiwan is getting close to attaining VWP status, and I would not be surprised to see HA add TPE when the Taiwanese can freely visit the U.S. There's also YVR, but given the past performance of U.S. carriers in the Canada-Hawaii realm, I imagine HA is more interested in niche opportunities than competitive bloodbaths.

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
I think either MSP-HNL, DEN-HNL?

Keep in mind that the carriers that fly/flew these routes benefit not only from an abundance of local loyalty but also tremendous hub connectivity. When adding markets beyond the West Coast (Washington/Oregon/California, and also Nevada), HA has always partnered with a local hub carrier to gain traction. They added PHX in conjunction with HP, and they added JFK in conjunction with B6. There is no way HA could add DEN without a local hub partner - I imagine UA is out of the question, and WN can't even codeshare or cross feed with it's own subsidiary, so that leaves F9 as the only option. In MSP, they would have to partner with DL, and even then, if DL couldn't make MSP-HNL work, what makes you think that HA would do any better? I would say both of these markets are unlikely. B6 appears to be a strong new partner, and I daresay HA may be looking at serving their West Coast hub at LGB, or perhaps even their BOS hub.

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
Maybe even opening up another island to mainland service like KOA? KOA-SEA, KOA-OAK, KOA-SAN, KOA-LAS?

I can't remember exactly, but HA did attempt KOA-mainland in either the late 90's or early 2000s. Given that the service was VERY short-lived, I can only hazard a guess that it didn't do well. It seems HA is more interested in developing a strong HNL hub and also a secondary hub at OGG. Both islands have sufficient local populations and tourist appeal to profitably fill HA's widebody aircraft. Obviously that is not the case with KOA, or LIH or ITO, for that matter.

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
Any idea when the A332 is coming to SJC?

Probably not anytime soon. Almost every new international route starts with the 767, with an upgrade to the A330 to happen shortly thereafter. I would imagine HA is far more interested in sending it's flagship aircraft to prestigious international markets and major mainland destinations/gateways like LAX and LAS than SJC.
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rampart
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:08 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
You have to understand that once you get east of the Rockies, Hawaii's attractiveness as a destination drops. Cost, distance, and crossing time zones becomes more inconvenient compared to Florida or the Caribbean. There just aren't that many flights from the eastern 2/3 of the US to Hawaii, and many of the ones that do exist are mainline carriers flying from their hubs with passengers fed in from many locations.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
but Houston, Dallas and Washington are probably all nonstarters.

New York City and Washington are 6th and 10th, respectively, highest numbers of total visitors to Hawai'i by metro market. This according to the aforementioned Hawai'i Tourism statistics. Dallas and Houston are 12th and 13th. That's 62,000+ annual visitors for Houston, to 145,000+ annual visitors for New York. I believe that's all originating, not transfering, visitors. Caribbean may still be a bigger draw, but there are still a lot of tourists going to Hawai'i.

-Rampart
 
ha763
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:50 am

Quoting KLAXAirport (Reply 2):
like HNL-Jack said, I believe HKG/HNL will be HA next route

I doubt it. Hong Kong is not in the VWP, nor is a candidate for inclusion. I see TPE being more likely because of this:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 14):
Taiwan is getting close to attaining VWP status, and I would not be surprised to see HA add TPE when the Taiwanese can freely visit the U.S.

Even with Taiwan not having VWP status, the market is more than 3 times the size of Hong Kong. I see HA announcing TPE-HNL, with at least 3x weekly service, in the next couple of months. Taiwan's inclusion in the VWP is expected to be approved in the second half of 2012.
 
HNLPointShoot
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:49 am

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 14):
The addition of HNL-MNL is a mystery to me, but the unusually close historic political, military, and economic ties between the U.S. and Philippines may override the inherent difficulties that Filipinos face in visiting the U.S.

MNL works because there's a large Filipino population in Hawaii (about a quarter of all state residents identify as Filipino or part-Filipino) that travels to the Philippines to visit family.
 
us330
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 14):
Well, all of the expansion has been international, save for the new JFK route that had (apparently) been heavily rumored for years. I would expect this trend to continue, as there are far more viable opportunities in the international realm - typically with little or no competition - than in the hyper-competitive domestic market. Keep in mind that as more and more U.S. airlines get ETOPS and start serving Hawaii (AS, G4, likely also WN and VX), there are less and less profitable/viable opportunities for HA to exploit when it comes to Hawaii-U.S. mainland.

Part of the problem for HA is also lack of suitable aircraft to exploit opportunities in smaller markets. AS and G4 have smaller aircraft and can exploit niche markets that may not generate the traffic needed to fill 763s or A332s. Why participate in a potential domestic bloodbath competition when HA can use their aircraft to destinations where they face more limited competition?

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 14):
It seems HA is more interested in developing a strong HNL hub and also a secondary hub at OGG. Both islands have sufficient local populations and tourist appeal to profitably fill HA's widebody aircraft. Obviously that is not the case with KOA, or LIH or ITO, for that matter.

I could foresee some possible neighbor island service to las vegas--since that is where most hawaiians go when they are on vacation.
Some of these neighbor island destinations are also relatively saturated by service by the majors from the likely destinations.
 
BMI727
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:23 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 15):
New York City and Washington are 6th and 10th, respectively, highest numbers of total visitors to Hawai'i by metro market. This according to the aforementioned Hawai'i Tourism statistics. Dallas and Houston are 12th and 13th. That's 62,000+ annual visitors for Houston, to 145,000+ annual visitors for New York. I believe that's all originating, not transfering, visitors.

Here's the thing: yields aren't great. Not trash, but definitely not printing money. Plus, you're looking at mostly tourists, so they are more price sensitive and less time sensitive so they will probably think nothing of stopping in Los Angeles or somewhere else on the way out if it saves some money. And that's before you consider how many of that number of passengers have frequent flier accounts with United or American.

I think Hawaiian can make JFK-HNL work, and maybe a few flights to OGG. IAD is probably borderline. I don't really see Houston or Dallas working without a partner providing feed on the other end or putting through a lot of passengers on connections to Asia and Australia (I doubt that's likely).
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drerx7
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:29 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
Houston would be very dicey. Not a chance in St. Louis.

Yea, from IAH to HNL I think would be a loser especially with UA and the possibility of it going domestic 777.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
Hawaiian might be able to eek out a few weekly frequencies between Maui and New York (definitely with an eastbound stop though), but Houston, Dallas and Washington are probably all nonstarters.

I actually could see HA being able to make OGG-IAH work. When CO flew it, it was always full. They pulled it because the 764 could be used elsewhere more profitably.
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IAHFLYR
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:43 pm

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 20):
I actually could see HA being able to make OGG-IAH work. When CO flew it, it was always full.



I took the IAH-OGG often and found it to be exactly as you said, and that was at the same time of the 2xdaily IAH-HNL flights that were equally full.

It would be great to have HA or UA bring the OGG trip to life again.
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compensateme
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:45 pm

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 20):

I actually could see HA being able to make OGG-IAH work. When CO flew it, it was always full. They pulled it because the 764 could be used elsewhere more profitably.

"Always full" of what? Passengers purchasing high-yielding fares? Or perhaps non-revs?
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ExpressJet_ERJ
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:52 pm

Would some routes work as non daily? Or with stops?

Say a STL to HNL 3 days a week? Or DTW-STL-HNL? Just curious. I would think a 76 could do well out of STL to HNL. I know when TWA 1 was a 747 it was mostly connections, but I would be curious to see how much is O & D.
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IAHFLYR
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 22):
Passengers purchasing high-yielding fares?



Since I was purchasing tickets and the fares seemed fairly high (IAH is notorious for high fares) I would guess the yield was good. Of course non-rev's but no idea how many. I'm sure others will be able to give good facts, I was simply a paying pax with a desire to get to Maui with no stops.
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drerx7
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 22):
"Always full" of what? Passengers purchasing high-yielding fares? Or perhaps non-revs?

Good question, not sure...but if yields were to Hawaii were such trash as everyone likes point out...Hawaiian wouldn't necessarily exist...?
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compensateme
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:42 pm

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 25):
Good question, not sure...but if yields were to Hawaii were such trash as everyone likes point out...Hawaiian wouldn't necessarily exist...?

Through the years, fares between the Western USA & Hawaii have been relatively much stronger than fares between the Central/Eastern USA & Hawaii (although that trend has gradually been changing). Similarly, fares from the Central/Eastern USA to the Caribbean are similar to those from the West, hence the very limited service from that region. JFK is HA’s first CONUS market outside the West and time will judge its performance. IAH is 40% longer than HA’s West Coast flights, and filling 270-seats with local traffic will be challenging.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 24):
Since I was purchasing tickets and the fares seemed fairly high (IAH is notorious for high fares) I would guess the yield was good. Of course non-rev's but no idea how many. I'm sure others will be able to give good facts, I was simply a paying pax with a desire to get to Maui with no stops.

In fairness, most of the passengers who flew to OGG from IAH on CO were not IAH POS. Nonetheless, tickets should be “expensive” anyway, as the distance is about the same as most of the Central/Eastern USA to Western Europe, without the high-yielding fare mixture the latter routes enjoy.

- - -

Over the past ten years, nearly every time CO has dropped a route, a.net has insisted it was profitable, but CO had a lack of aircraft and decided to seek greater profits elsewhere. If IAH, EWR, CLE and the long-haul routes were as profitable as a.net would lead us to believe, then CO would’ve posted mind-blowing profits over the years. Or at least acquired additional long-haul aircraft  Wink.

[Edited 2012-07-01 11:14:27]
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yellowtail
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:29 am

let me throw out a wild card....MEX-HNL........surely HA would be able to fill a 767 4 times a week to HNL from one of the largest cities in the world.
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koruman
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:44 am

The Visa Waiver issue is one factor, and another two are:

1) Australia's booming economy which hasn't had a recession, and
2) the fact that Americans are different to Australians and Asians in wanting low fares even if it means inferior service, which for an airline means lower yields.

All in all, I think that Hawaiian would open Melbourne and Auckland before adding a further long-haul US mainland port.
 
compensateme
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:55 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 28):
2) the fact that Americans are different to Australians and Asians in wanting low fares even if it means inferior service, which for an airline means lower yields.

The growth of Jetstar, Virgin Blue, etc. says otherwise.
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drerx7
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:00 am

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 26):
Over the past ten years, nearly every time CO has dropped a route, a.net has insisted it was profitable, but CO had a lack of aircraft and decided to seek greater profits elsewhere. If IAH, EWR, CLE and the long-haul routes were as profitable as a.net would lead us to believe, then CO would’ve posted mind-blowing profits over the years. Or at least acquired additional long-haul aircraft  .

I don't know if that logic is valid enough to hang a hat of fact on though. During that time period CO did post consistent profits while other carriers faltered. CO maximized their profits with the aircraft they did have, smart business move to me. When they did max that out...the 787 order came. Of course some routes were discontinued for not being profitable, but I can say that from the knowledge I had at the time of OGG...it was profitable - but long haul Europe/S.America was more profitable. In regards to the topic. I think it would be a slim chance that IAH would be started by HA, but I think they would have a better shot at OGG - IAH vs. HNL-IAH. Even with that said, I would have to agree with your assessment after I read it.
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TWA772LR
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:17 am

If you live in the southern/eastern/midwest US, IAH would be a great alternative to LAX and SFO for a trip to Hawaii, the only places I think would be better are SEA, SAN, and SNA, but you would have to connect for those.
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koruman
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:08 am

No CompensateMe, over 90% of tickets purchased by Australians for sector lengths of 5-10 hours (ie comparable to US mainland-Hawaii) are tickets which include baggage, IFE and catering, even though cheaper US-style low quality, low-inclusion alternatives are available.

My home city has US-style flights on Air Asia X to Kuala Lumpur, but far more of us choose to use an airport 90 minutes further away to fly Malaysia, Singapore or Thai instead.

Which is why Hawaiian is opening Brisbane rather than closer US cities such as Chicago, Dallas, Denver etc etc. The majority of US leisure travellers differ from Australians and Asians by:

1) choosing closer beach destinations rather than Hawaii, and seeming not to be able to discern between different destinations, and

2) being much more price-sensitive, and hence delivering lower yields.
 
HAL
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:15 am

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 25):
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 22):
"Always full" of what? Passengers purchasing high-yielding fares? Or perhaps non-revs?

Good question, not sure...but if yields were to Hawaii were such trash as everyone likes point out...Hawaiian wouldn't necessarily exist...?

It is absolutely, positively, guaranteed that in every single Hawaii thread, someone will assert that Hawaii is a 'low-yield' or 'no-yield' destination.

I guess that's why HA has been so unprofitable for the past decade.  

Oh yeah, you might want to read this too: One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
Hawaiian763
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:12 pm

Would be nice to see HA start flights from Hawaii to Canada like HNL-YVR or OGG-YYC, but sadly I know that's never going to happen
 
aztrainer
Posts: 713
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:58 pm

I think that this is all mute when you look at the data that the Hawai'i Tourism Authority has complied...

32% increase in travel from Japan

The number of visitors on organized tour groups in May 2012 rose 29.6 percent, led by strong growth from Japan (+31.6% to 29,137 visitors).

Contributing to the growth in U.S. West visitors in May 2012 was a 9.1 percent increase from the Pacific region. Double-digit growth in arrivals from California (+12.6%) and Alaska (+29%) offset a 4.5 percent drop from Oregon. Arrivals from the Mountain region increased 6.5 percent compared to May 2011.

Except for a slight drop from New England (-0.5%), arrivals from all other U.S. East regions were higher compared to May 2011. Arrivals from West South Central rose 13.4 percent, driven by strong growth from Texas and Oklahoma. Arrivals from East South Central also grew 13.4 percent, largely due to increases from Alabama, Tennessee and Kentucky. For year-to-date 2012, the West South Central region showed the strongest growth in arrivals (+9.9%) led by steady increases from Texas in all five months of 2012.

Total air seats for May 2012 rose 5.6 percent compared to a year ago. Seats to Līhu‘e showed the largest increase (+12.6%), followed by Honolulu (+5.5%) and Kahului (+2.2%). Seats to Kona declined 4.4 percent.

Total scheduled air seats grew 5.8 percent from May 2011. In contrast, total charter seats decreased 11.7 percent to 7,578 seats in May 2012. There were two fewer charter flights out of Japan compared to last May. In addition, planes used for Japanese charter flights in May 2012 were smaller compared to those used in May 2011.

Scheduled air seats from U.S. West in May 2012 rose 2.9 percent. A doubling of seats from Oakland, San Jose and Anchorage, and increased service from Salt Lake City, San Diego, Los Angeles and Seattle offset discontinued service from Orange County, and reduced service from San Francisco, Portland, Denver and Phoenix.

Seats from U.S. East declined 15.5 percent as a result of decreased service from Chicago (-57.2%), which negated growth from Newark and Houston.

Scheduled seats out of Japan grew 21.1 percent compared to May 2011 due to increased service from Osaka, Nagoya and Narita. The recently added Fukuoka-Honolulu route provided an additional 8,232 seats.

Scheduled seats from Canada increased 18.5 compared to May 2011. Seasonal service from Calgary ended, while air seat capacity out of Vancouver (+20.3%) continued to grow.

Oceania air seats rose 12.9 percent from last May, boosted by additional service from Sydney and Auckland.

Scheduled seats from Other Asia climbed 34 percent from May 2011. Increased services from Korean Airlines, Hawaiian Airlines, and the addition of Asiana Airlines boosted seats from Seoul (+22.5%).

Looking at these numbers and going by a statistical data the only expansion that I could see is in Texas. But that being said, I would think that they will focus on the hot area in Japan and Asia and not expansion to other mainland cities.
 
compensateme
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:07 pm

Quoting HAL (Reply 33):

It is absolutely, positively, guaranteed that in every single Hawaii thread, someone will assert that Hawaii is a 'low-yield' or 'no-yield' destination.

I guess that's why HA has been so unprofitable for the past decade.

Oh yeah, you might want to read this too:

My comment, that you quoted, was in regard to CO's IAH-OGG service. Another poster suggested the route for future HA service, as he believed it was profitable for CO as it was always full & profitable but CO decided to earn bigger profits with the aircraft elsewhere. I merely responded to this as a fallacy (for reasons citied)..

FWIW, HA operates a completely different route & cost strucuture than the legacies to Hawaii, so it's not unsurprising that a route HA enjoys success on may be unprofitable for a legacy. But if you research published tariffs to Hawaii this upcoming winter, you'll notice most of the Central/Eastern USA can travel for less than $850 inclusive. Notably, UA's flight from EWR is selling for less than $700 on many dates -- LESS than their flights from LAX (and in the past, CO's lowest fares were rarely available on the EWR flight). HA's very clearly pressuring yields in this market.
Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
 
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drerx7
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 36):
I merely responded to this as a fallacy (for reasons citied)..

Yea, you had some decent points, but I don't think the reasons you cited were justification enough for the performance of the flight or the reallocation of the 764 to more profitable skies. From what I remember about the performance of this flight, it was profitable...but the yields were immensely better elsewhere. So when operating with a limited fleet of widebodies, why not move them to more profitable routes?
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
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aloha73g
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:50 pm

I think the clues are pointing to TPE and/or HKG/PVG/PEK:

1. On Saturday 6/30/12 Hawaiian put up a listing for Mandarin, Cantonese & Japanese speaking flight attendants
2. The front page story in the Friday 6/29/12 Pacific Business News is about HA's "China Strategy"
3. The Star-Advertiser of 7/2/12 has Taiwan's upcoming visa-waiver status as the lead Business story

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
compensateme
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 37):
Yea, you had some decent points, but I don't think the reasons you cited were justification enough for the performance of the flight or the reallocation of the 764 to more profitable skies. From what I remember about the performance of this flight, it was profitable...but the yields were immensely better elsewhere. So when operating with a limited fleet of widebodies, why not move them to more profitable routes?

Do you believe the every flight CO operated was profitable year-round?  

Do you think that had IAH-OGG been profitable, then CO would've made an attempt to keep the route at least seasonally?

As I wrote earlier, for the past decade, every time CO dropped a long-haul flight a.net claimed the route was profitable but CO decided to use the aircraft elsewhere. If this were true, then CO's reluctance to order additional aircraft means the airline failed its consumers, its employees and its share holders. It wouldn't make sense that CO would continually discontinue proven profitable routes, and then order 787 for risky, ULH routes.

[Edited 2012-07-02 13:39:28]
Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
 
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drerx7
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:17 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 39):
Do you believe the every flight CO operated was profitable year-round?

No, and I didn't say that. You are attempting to generalize, poorly at that, some statement that YOU came up with that I did not say.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 39):
Do you think that had IAH-OGG been profitable, then CO would've made an attempt to keep the route at least seasonally?

It was seasonal, just as the 2nd daily HNL flight and I know factually that they were profitable.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 39):
As I wrote earlier, for the past decade, every time CO dropped a long-haul flight a.net claimed the route was profitable but CO decided to use the aircraft elsewhere. If this were true, then CO's reluctance to order additional aircraft means the airline failed its consumers, its employees and its share holders. It wouldn't make sense that CO would continually discontinue proven profitable routes, and then order 787 for risky, ULH routes.

Wrong.

Its called good business. Why continue to fly a profitable route when the resources can be allocated to more profitable flying? I'm not talking about all routes and everytime CO dropped a route I am talking about IAH-OGG and that is it. I can't and am not speaking on other routes. Your argument is flawed. Now if we talked about some other CO route cancellations - maybe I could agree with you, on this one you are simply wrong.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
compensateme
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:15 am

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 40):
No, and I didn't say that. You are attempting to generalize, poorly at that, some statement that YOU came up with that I did not say.

No, you failed to comprehend my point. It’s unlikely that every single long-haul route CO operated was consistently profitable year-round; therefore, had IAH-OGG been profitable, the route would’ve been kept alive in some form.


Quoting drerx7 (Reply 40):
It was seasonal, just as the 2nd daily HNL flight and I know factually that they were profitable.


IAH/OGG was inaugurated June 2003 as year-round service, but was briefly suspended late that year and all of fall 2004 & 2005. In mid-February 2006, the routing became IAH/LAX/OGG.

Consider:
1) That CO made the change from IAH to LAX in the heart of the winter (peak season to Hawaii while the low-point of Atlantic travel);
2) It was a last-minute decision (announced late November for mid-February travel);
3) LAX-OGG was never intended to be a permanent route (unquestionably an attempt to accommodate those already holding tickets while attempting to fill remaining seats with local traffic from LAX);

A rational person would conclude that IAH/OGG was a poor performer for CO more-so than a profitable route.

Nor was the second IAH/HNL frequency seasonal. It’s now cancelled (it does not appear in the schedules) while meanwhile, UA has idle widebody capacity throughout the winter.

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 40):
Wrong.Its called good business. Why continue to fly a profitable route when the resources can be allocated to more profitable flying? I'm not talking about all routes and everytime CO dropped a route I am talking about IAH-OGG and that is it. I can't and am not speaking on other routes. Your argument is flawed. Now if we talked about some other CO route cancellations - maybe I could agree with you, on this one you are simply wrong.


Airlines don’t take the decision to upgauge and/or add new service lightly. To insist CO would cancel a proven money-making flight at the risk of unproven service is incredibly erroneous. The only thing wrong is the assumption that IAH/OGG was a successful, profitable flight for CO.

[Edited 2012-07-02 19:32:20]
Gordo:like this streaming video,Sky magazine,meals for sale at mealtime-make customer satisfaction rank so high at UA
 
HAL
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:46 am

Mentioned briefly in a previous post, but I think it's pretty big news, and a pretty clear indicator where HA is going in the near future:

Hawaiian Airlines opens China sales office

I'm very happy to be a part of this adventure.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
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drerx7
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:27 am

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 41):

Even if you are a   , those are some good points and I'll concede defeat - I see your point.   
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
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RWA380
Posts: 4526
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RE: New Domestic HA Routes?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:33 am

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 6):

Do HA ever run widebodies on inter-island service? Scheduled? Or only when Aloha went bust or some kind of seasonal thing? Would love to fly a 767-300ER or one of their gorgeous new A330-200s from Honolulu to Maui

You'd have to go back a ways to find scheduled widebody service between HNL & OGG, UA and AA operated DC-10's, and DL and TZ operated L-1011's, I think NW ran a 757 one direction HNL-OGG on a triangle routing from SEA, and UA did have a 777 running OGG-KOA on a one way basis as well, routing to and from ORD. Other than the last, all of these examples operated some time during the 90's, at one point HNL-ITO saw lots of widebodies on a myriad of carriers, often times directional, and without local rights pre-deregulation. PA, UA, WA, NW, CO, BN and I'm sure more.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 31):
If you live in the southern/eastern/midwest US, IAH would be a great alternative to LAX and SFO for a trip to Hawaii, the only places I think would be better are SEA, SAN, and SNA, but you would have to connect for those.

What about DFW, ORD, DEN, SLC, LAS or even PHX?

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 38):
I think the clues are pointing to TPE and/or HKG/PVG/PEK:

1. On Saturday 6/30/12 Hawaiian put up a listing for Mandarin, Cantonese & Japanese speaking flight attendants
2. The front page story in the Friday 6/29/12 Pacific Business News is about HA's "China Strategy"
3. The Star-Advertiser of 7/2/12 has Taiwan's upcoming visa-waiver status as the lead Business story

I am compelled to agree with you, and I expect you are correct TPE, HKG or PEK/PVG are all excellent news.

Quoting HAL (Reply 42):
Mentioned briefly in a previous post, but I think it's pretty big news, and a pretty clear indicator where HA is going in the near future:

Hawaiian Airlines opens China sales office

I'm very happy to be a part of this adventure.

Although carriers do sometimes have offices in countries they don't serve, US carriers do it much less than others, I expect that this is the "writing on the wall", and again a smart move by HA. I am happy for you, and I wish I had taken the opportunity to join HA in the early 90's when they were hiring F/A's in HNL, I would have enjoyed spending my years flying with an iconic carrier like HA is becoming. I will always wish the best for HA, but as I get sicker, I think my opportunity to visit Hawaii one more time is waning, unless some kind benefactor drops passes in my lap soon, I doubt I'll ever fly HA again, and visit my favorite spot on earth
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