tdscanuck
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787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:35 pm

According to both "All Things 787" and "Randy's Blog", Boeing will be doing flying demonstrations with ZA461 during the Farnborough Airshow:
http://nyc787.blogspot.com/2012/06/787-flying-during-farnborough.html
http://boeingblogs.com/randy/archive...12/06/flying_at_farnborough_1.html

I'm hugely disappointed by their decision to do this but, that said, I hope all the folks at the show this year get a fantastic display.

Tom.
 
c680
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:38 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Thread starter):
I'm hugely disappointed by their decision to do this

Why? Because they are changing their position on the safety or value of flying demonstrations? Or less time for visiting it on the ramp? (or is it Tarmac? It is Jolly Olde England after all...)
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ghifty
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:43 pm

Quoting C680 (Reply 1):

Maybe because it's ZA461? And not a bird in Boeing colors? That's the only downside I can see..

A7-BCB looks pretty sharp!
Big version: Width: 640 Height: 404 File size: 111kb

Source: http://www.flickr.com/photos/moonm/7445660244/

[Edited 2012-06-29 09:51:13]
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c680
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting ghifty (Reply 2):
A7-BCB looks pretty sharp!

Still amazing to me that it is about the same length as a B767-300er. Increase wingspan & fuselage diameter, and it actually looks smaller to me (because of the proportions)
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seabosdca
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:02 pm

Quoting C680 (Reply 3):
Still amazing to me that it is about the same length as a B767-300er. Increase wingspan & fuselage diameter, and it actually looks smaller to me (because of the proportions)

After looking at pictures, a lot of people are going to be blown away the first time they see one up close in person. It's much bigger than it looks in the photos. The huge engines also help keep the illusion going.

Quoting tdscanuck (Thread starter):
I'm hugely disappointed by their decision to do this

Please explain further, unless it would violate confidentiality obligations...
 
ghifty
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting C680 (Reply 3):
Still amazing to me that it is about the same length as a B767-300er. Increase wingspan & fuselage diameter, and it actually looks smaller to me (because of the proportions)

It looks smaller than the B767-300 to me as well! Just some visual trickery.. everything else is bigger except for it's length..
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:27 pm

My only take on the decision is that Boeing years ago made a decision not to have flying decisions for Boeing's interest, whatever they may have been. Today, if they have agreed to have a flying demonstration it will mean that everything is availabe for sale. Boeing's screw up of the 787 progarm may have changed the company forever going forward.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:55 pm

Quoting C680 (Reply 1):

Quoting tdscanuck (Thread starter):
I'm hugely disappointed by their decision to do this

Why? Because they are changing their position on the safety or value of flying demonstrations?

That's part of it. The decision to not do airshow flying demonstrations with the commercial jets has been in place for a long time at Boeing and I firmly believe in the reasoning I think is behind that decision. As a pilot I greatly respect put it, "It's like peeing in a dark suit. Done properly, nobody knows you've done it. Done wrong, it's incredibly embarrassing."

I always respected the position that airlines don't buy airliners because they look good in flying demonstrations; they buy them for things that don't show up in flying demos at all. The only feature you can really get a sense for is community noise and Boeing has been demonstrating that via flyovers/flybys at airshows for a long time too.

More tactically, this looks way too much like an Al-Baker show piece (again) and I'd like to believe the OEM's are trying to discourage that type of behavior. If Qatar themselves wanted to take their own airplane to the airshow and do their own flying demonstration, more power to them; I'd be elbowing for a front row seat. Caveat: I have *zero* knowledge of what's actually behind this, it just seems awfully coincidental that it involves Qatar.

Most fundamentally (unlike the miltary jets), airliners are all about safety. There is no real upside, and a small (but very real) risk to doing low altitude airliners maneuvers. When you have to do it, you do it and you do all the right risk mitigations. I know the pilots referenced in Randy's Blog and I have absolute faith in their ability to do a great, safe show...but even they can't do it at less risk than a static display and I don't see what the gain is.

Overall, this seems like a "breach of the floodgates"...if this, then what's next? I'm afraid of what par13del's astute comment may entail:

Quoting par13del (Reply 6):
Today, if they have agreed to have a flying demonstration it will mean that everything is availabe for sale.

Tom.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:28 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 7):
More tactically, this looks way too much like an Al-Baker show piece (again) and I'd like to believe the OEM's are trying to discourage that type of behavior. If Qatar themselves wanted to take their own airplane to the airshow and do their own flying demonstration, more power to them;

I read this the same way, except I can see the reason behind this.

1) Qatar would not get the airplane in time to fly the plane themselves. Waiting for Paris would probably lessen the PR value.

2) If Qatar insisted on the flight demonstration, then there is precedence for Boeing to bend for their high profile customers . . . specially if safety is not an issue.

Just in case, make sure the lawyers have all the loose ends tied up.  

bt
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:37 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 7):
More tactically, this looks way too much like an Al-Baker show piece (again)

I've heard rumors that QR (probably Al-Baker himself) basically insisted on it. I doubt it will become a pattern, Boeing is probably just doing it as a favor basically.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:38 pm

Airliner flyby's have always seemed like a bad idea. Commercial pilots, for the most part, aren't trained to fly their multi hundred ton behemoths a few feet off of the ground. Low level flying is a skill requiring very specific training to perfect.

I have no doubts that the Boeing pilots chosen are more than capable to pull off the task flawlessly but it seems like an unnecessary, if small, added risk for no real reward.

I was more than impressed to see the, (much, much bigger than it seems in pictures), static 787 at Oshkosh last year, and seeing it take off for the flight home.

On the other hand, it should be a spectacular sight...
What the...?
 
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seabosdca
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:46 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 7):
If Qatar themselves wanted to take their own airplane to the airshow and do their own flying demonstration, more power to them; I'd be elbowing for a front row seat.

I completely understand your general reasoning. But I think I'd rather have the 787 test pilots doing the display than any airline pilots, even the best ones employed by the best airlines in the world. Perhaps (this is obviously total speculation) al-Baker insisted that he was going to do a demonstration and Boeing decided to do it for him instead.
 
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:53 pm

Is there any concern that more skill is required to flirt with the edge of the flight envelope than in an Airbus?
 
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:54 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 10):

I have no doubts that the Boeing pilots chosen are more than capable to pull off the task flawlessly but it seems like an unnecessary, if small, added risk for no real reward.

But didn't the 787 performed fly-by's during the various world tour?

This would be a grander stage than during those other fly-by's

The reward would be when Qatar put money down for another boat load of 787's or 747-8's.  

Or perhaps this was one of the promissory items owed to settle their recent Boeing-Cargolux dispute?   

And besides, we all drool over those sexy flexing wings . . . why not let more people see those wings live? . . . I mean alive!!!

bt

[Edited 2012-06-29 12:07:45]

[Edited 2012-06-29 12:08:16]
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JoeCanuck
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:11 pm

Ultimately, it's a risk/reward scenario. Will a flyby garner them any sales? If it keeps a current customer happy, maybe that may be enough reward.
What the...?
 
HullCitySpotter
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:46 pm

Interesting that the A380 will be parked; yet the 787 won't be.
Plus if I'm right, Boeing haven't even got any aircraft parked on the public days; as the 737-900ER from KE is being parked from Monday - Wednesday.
 
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zeke
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 10):
Airliner flyby's have always seemed like a bad idea. Commercial pilots, for the most part, aren't trained to fly their multi hundred ton behemoths a few feet off of the ground. Low level flying is a skill requiring very specific training to perfect.

I know when our aircraft have been in displays, in formation with the Red Arrows etc, they have been flown by pilots with lots of display experience, probably more than any of the manufacturers test pilots. People forget that military pilots from display teams like the Thunderbirds, Red Arrows, Roulettes, Blue Angels etc often do not stay in the military for life, they go on and join airlines. Needless to say, it is not impossible if Qatar have some very experienced display pilots that fly airliners as their day job.
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BE77
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:55 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 7):
"...if this, then what's next?

9 * 747-8i or 787's on loan to the 431 Air Demonstration Squadron of the RCAF

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14):
If it keeps a current customer happy, maybe that may be enough reward.

Generally the correct answer for any commercial activity, as long as it is done safely - which should be possible (I hope!).
If a safe flight cannot be briefed and executed for a substantially empty airliner at an airshow, then the aircraft, processes and training could probably use a thorough review. Nothing is ever '0' risk, but a couple of circuits shouldn't be any more risk than a flight with passengers.
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
I've heard rumors that QR (probably Al-Baker himself) basically insisted on it. I doubt it will become a pattern

A wonderful and brilliant friend of ours has a saying that I have stolen: It's only kinky the first time.

Precedence is everything.
 
BMI727
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 7):
If Qatar themselves wanted to take their own airplane to the airshow and do their own flying demonstration, more power to them; I'd be elbowing for a front row seat. Caveat: I have *zero* knowledge of what's actually behind this, it just seems awfully coincidental that it involves Qatar.

Here's the thing: Qatar really wants to put on a show. So, is it better for them to do it with their own relatively inexperienced pilots or let Boeing do it with pilots who have been flying and testing the 787 for about two and a half years?

Besides, if Boeing said no, we all know Al-Baker wouldn't hesitate to make an issue of it.
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:58 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 12):

Is there any concern that more skill is required to flirt with the edge of the flight envelope than in an Airbus?

Bingo. This is the reason Boeing don't fly at air shows - a Boeing is as safe as an Airbus in normal airline operation, but an Airbus is uniquely suited to display flying cos the handling pilot doesn't particularly need to know where the edge of the envelope is, ya just haul the stick back to the stop and the computers take care of the rest. A Boeing with conventional controls cannot do the same kind of stunts. Perhaps this decision shows the extent of the FBW in the 787.

Can't wait - looking forward to seeing a great display from a fantastic machine.
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:04 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 20):
ya just haul the stick back to the stop and the computers take care of the rest.

Wasn't exactly this sort of thinking responsible for the Mulhouse A320 crash? I would think that an Airbus driver should be just as conscious of where the edge of the envelope is and what's going on as a Boeing driver.
 
bmibaby737
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:18 pm

Quoting HullCitySpotter (Reply 15):
Plus if I'm right, Boeing haven't even got any aircraft parked on the public days; as the 737-900ER from KE is being parked from Monday - Wednesday.

The Boeing Next-Generation 737-900ER with the Boeing Sky Interior will be available for media viewing during the following times:

Monday: 12.00 to 13.00
Tuesday: 12.00 to 13.00
Wednesday: 12.00 to 13.00
Thursday: 12.00 to 13.00

Edit: Does anyone know which aircraft is being shown at Farnborough, Boeing 737-9B5ER HL8249 was delivered to South Korea already this week & I don't see any others due?

[Edited 2012-06-29 13:25:53]
 
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par13del
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:20 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 12):
Is there any concern that more skill is required to flirt with the edge of the flight envelope than in an Airbus?

I don't think that will be a factor, pilots doing fly by's with commercial a/c are not going to be "pushing the envelop" of the a/c, at most other than straight and level they may perform a complete turn to let everyone where ever they are at the show see the full a/c, not going to get much more than that for a display that's less than 10 mins.
 
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ER757
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:44 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 7):
this looks way too much like an Al-Baker show piece (again)

Sounds reasonable.

Hey Tom, just wondering how you feel about Boeing doing demo flights at Seafair and the Boeing Classic golf tournament. They do them just about every year. The ones at the golf tourney are usually with an aircraft already painted up in a customer's livery but I believe they're still under Boeing's ownership at the time - they're "pre-delivery" flight if I am not mistaken.
 
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:10 pm

Quoting HullCitySpotter (Reply 15):
Interesting that the A380 will be parked; yet the 787 won't be.

I thought the A380 was doing some flying displays?

"The full range of our newest commercial and military aircraft will be on display at the Farnborough International Airshow. This will include the A380 and A400M performing daily flying displays and being on static display."

Quote from the Airbus Facebook page. 7 Hours ago.
 
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:19 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 13):
But didn't the 787 performed fly-by's during the various world tour?

Yes, lots. A fly-by is extremely different than an airshow display. A flyby is, for all intents and approaches, a low approach on normal procedures. An airshow demo, if it's worthy of the title, is a great deal more complex.

Quoting zeke (Reply 16):
I know when our aircraft have been in displays, in formation with the Red Arrows etc, they have been flown by pilots with lots of display experience, probably more than any of the manufacturers test pilots.

Randy's Blog says the pilots will be Mike Bryan and Randy Neville. Both are ex-miltary. Bryan was a navy carrier pilot before Boeing. Neville was the F-22 chief test pilot and, until recently, was the high-time Raptor pilot on the planet. Qatar may have guys that are equal but unlikely to have better.

Quoting zeke (Reply 16):
People forget that military pilots from display teams like the Thunderbirds, Red Arrows, Roulettes, Blue Angels etc often do not stay in the military for life, they go on and join airlines.

They also go and join the OEM's.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19):
So, is it better for them to do it with their own relatively inexperienced pilots or let Boeing do it with pilots who have been flying and testing the 787 for about two and a half years?

If Qatar had an incident, it would reflect primary on Qatar. If Boeing has an incident, rightly or wrongly, it would reflect on the entire 787 fleet. Just look at how much damage the Mulhouse crash is *still* doing to the A320's reputation even though that one was pure pilot error.

Quoting par13del (Reply 23):
I don't think that will be a factor, pilots doing fly by's with commercial a/c are not going to be "pushing the envelop" of the a/c,

They're not talking a fly-by, they're talking an airshow demo. Airbus does a fantastic airshow demo; they push the aircraft right to the edges of the envelope protection. That's how, for example, they do the 93-knot slow pass in the A380.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 24):
Hey Tom, just wondering how you feel about Boeing doing demo flights at Seafair and the Boeing Classic golf tournament. They do them just about every year.

Those are just fly-bys. I have no issue with fly-bys (I'd done some of them). As I mentioned, on a risk scale they're equivalent to low approaches and require no unusual procedures at all. Demos are a different kettle of fish.

Tom.
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 23):
I don't think that will be a factor, pilots doing fly by's with commercial a/c are not going to be "pushing the envelop" of the a/c, at most other than straight and level they may perform a complete turn to let everyone where ever they are at the show see the full a/c, not going to get much more than that for a display that's less than 10 mins.

I guess you've never seen an Airbus flying display. I saw my first at the '93 Paris airshow (with an A340-300) and nearly fell on my butt when I saw with my own eyes an airliner do what that airliner did.   

Wondering what preparation / practice Boeing is doing with the 787.
 
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:52 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 26):
Just look at how much damage the Mulhouse crash is *still* doing to the A320's reputation even though that one was pure pilot error.

Tom, I have two points here:

1 - It's only an issue affecting the A320's reputation here on airliners.net and a few other geeky websites. If you ask Joe Public "What happened to the A320 at Mulhouse?" I'd be amazed if anyone knows.

2 - It was a fly-by, not a demo flight
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BoeingGuy
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:07 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 12):
Is there any concern that more skill is required to flirt with the edge of the flight envelope than in an Airbus?

Wrong.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 21):
Wasn't exactly this sort of thinking responsible for the Mulhouse A320 crash?

That crash probably wouldn't have happened in a Boeing airplane. Boeing airplanes actually respond to all pilot inputs. The computer doesn't have ultimate authority.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:10 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 28):
It's only an issue affecting the A320's reputation here on airliners.net and a few other geeky websites. If you ask Joe Public "What happened to the A320 at Mulhouse?" I'd be amazed if anyone knows.

But (if they are old enough to have been aware in 1988) you ask them something vague (and wrong) like "Don't you remember when an Airbus crashed because of the computers?" they'll suddenly remember. It took a long time for the public to be convinced that this newfangled computerized airplane was safe, partly because one crashed in an accident which had "something to do" with the computerized controls almost right out of the gate.

That's the kind of damage I think Tom is talking about. And it could equally happen with Boeing's newfangled plastic airplane.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 20):
A Boeing with conventional controls cannot do the same kind of stunts.

Perhaps. but I have seen QF's 747-400s do some impressive maneuvers over Melbourne during the Formula One Grand Prix events...



Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 29):
That crash probably wouldn't have happened in a Boeing airplane. Boeing airplanes actually respond to all pilot inputs. The computer doesn't have ultimate authority.

That accident was not caused by the A320 FBW system. The pilot thought he was a fair bit higher off the ground then he was and when he realized that he was too low and heading for the trees, he applied full power. However, the engines were at near idle and could not spool up prior to him entering the tree line.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:58 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 29):
That crash probably wouldn't have happened in a Boeing airplane

There's a legitimate argument about whether the pilot would have approached the maneuver in the way he did if it had been a Boeing but, if he'd flown the Boeing the way he'd flown the Airbus, the Boeing would have dug a trench in the forest too.

The Airbus envelope protections probably saved a lot of people in that crash; the same maneuver, improperly executed in a Boeing, would have resulted in a stall and considerably worse impact attitude.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 29):
Boeing airplanes actually respond to all pilot inputs. The computer doesn't have ultimate authority.

That hasn't been true since the 777.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 30):
That's the kind of damage I think Tom is talking about. And it could equally happen with Boeing's newfangled plastic airplane.

Exactly. Totally separate from the actual risk of doing demos in airliners, the upside is, at best, a customer might be slightly happier. The downside is that your entire product line's reputation could be tarnished for decades, possibly as a result of something that has nothing to do with the product. I just don't see how that tradeoff works out.

Tom.
 
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zeke
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:23 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 26):
Randy's Blog says the pilots will be Mike Bryan and Randy Neville. Both are ex-miltary. Bryan was a navy carrier pilot before Boeing. Neville was the F-22 chief test pilot and, until recently, was the high-time Raptor pilot on the planet. Qatar may have guys that are equal but unlikely to have better.

Going by that brief bio, both are ex-single seat fast jet pilots, great for exploring the new stability and control points in the envelope. Different skill is required to be part of a team to fly a tight formation at a display, and to have practiced and performed at various displays.
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cedarjet
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:43 am

Oh dear god, where do you people get your information from?

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 21):
Wasn't exactly this sort of thinking responsible for the Mulhouse A320 crash?
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 29):
That crash probably wouldn't have happened in a Boeing airplane. Boeing airplanes actually respond to all pilot inputs. The computer doesn't have ultimate authority.
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 30):
But (if they are old enough to have been aware in 1988) you ask them something vague (and wrong) like "Don't you remember when an Airbus crashed because of the computers?" they'll suddenly remember.
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 30):
because one crashed in an accident which had "something to do" with the computerized controls almost right out of the gate.

The fact that the pilot in Mulhouse was flying an Airbus had nothing to do with the crash. He flew slowly at 30 ft towards a row of trees 100 ft tall. How would being in a Boeing have helped in any way?

The only difference is, in a Boeing, if the pilot had pulled back hard on the controls, he would have immediately got the stick shaker (stall warning) and either pushed forward again - and crashed into the trees - or kept pulling back and the plane would then have stalled and dropped much harder into the trees (or the airfield before the trees) and probably killed a lot of people.

The Airbus gave him as much nose-up pitch as it could without stalling, which wasn't nearly enough because where the aircraft was in relation to obstacles around it, not for any other reason. Any educated observer would agree that the computers - to the degree that they played any role at all - helped, as the aircraft mushed into the trees under control and wings level.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 26):
Just look at how much damage the Mulhouse crash is *still* doing to the A320's reputation even though that one was pure pilot error

It doesn't harm the A320's reputation in the slightest except in the eyes of people who don't know the basic facts about the crash or about FBW or, apparently, the laws of physics. The manufacturer of the aircraft was totally irrelevant.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:44 am

Didn't a mishap at a past Airshow cost Boeing an order vs the A340?? All I remember is that a faulty engine cost Boeing a 777 order. Somebody care to shed some light?
 
tdscanuck
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:53 am

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 35):
Didn't a mishap at a past Airshow cost Boeing an order vs the A340?? All I remember is that a faulty engine cost Boeing a 777 order. Somebody care to shed some light?

There's a (relatively) famous case of a 777 engine (a PW, I think) surging in front of a grandstand of VIPs at some event or another. I never heard of a lost order over something like that though.

Tom.
 
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:05 am

Some of my favourite airshow displays have been with civilian aircraft. One of the best was with one of the re-engined Air Canada DC8 freighters. It both did a flyby of the waterfront during the Canadian International Airshow in Toronto and then a low and fast flyby at YYZ.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:23 am

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 34):
The Airbus gave him as much nose-up pitch as it could without stalling, which wasn't nearly enough because where the aircraft was in relation to obstacles around it, not for any other reason. Any educated observer would agree that the computers - to the degree that they played any role at all - helped, as the aircraft mushed into the trees under control and wings level.

That is true. But it's not what was communicated in the press at the time, and it's not what the general public remembers. The public takeaway was "new OMG computerized airplane crashed." I think it's impossible to deny, as Tom observed, that that crash was a big black eye for the A320 program with the public that was remembered for quite awhile. You and I know it wasn't deserved, but Tom's point, which I sympathize with, was that an airshow mishap with the 787 could have the same effect on the 787 program.

Also, I think there is at least an argument to be made that the reason the Mulhouse pilot was so cavalier is because he was incorrectly relying on the envelope protection to save him no matter what he actually told the airplane to do. Thus my point that an Airbus pilot should be just as aware of where he is relative to the edges of the envelope as a Boeing pilot.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:09 am

Maybe they'll do some barrel rolls with the 787 in honor of the 707 (unauthorized) display so many years ago!
 
astuteman
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:23 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 29):
Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 12):Is there any concern that more skill is required to flirt with the edge of the flight envelope than in an Airbus?
Wrong.

As a point of order, "wrong" isn't really an answer to WM's question. "Yes", "no", or "perhaps" might fit better....

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 29):
That crash probably wouldn't have happened in a Boeing airplane. Boeing airplanes actually respond to all pilot inputs. The computer doesn't have ultimate authority.

don't go there.......

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 38):
an Airbus pilot should be just as aware of where he is relative to the edges of the envelope as a Boeing pilot.

  

Rgds
 
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airmagnac
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:34 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 26):
If Qatar had an incident, it would reflect primary on Qatar.


Actually, Habsheim was an Air France aircraft with an AF crew...but as you then say, it hit Airbus as much as it did AF. So I would be careful with the proposition "Qatar crash = mainly Qatar problem".
Especially with the 787 having been so heavily marketed as a ground-breaking, technological-leap aircraft, and then having been through so many publicized issues.
A crash now, regardless of the cause & who is flying the plane, may be interpreted by the public as "B doesn't master the tech they put on their plane".
Just like Airbus was accused of not knowing how to build a proper FBW system.



Quoting scbriml (Reply 28):
It's only an issue affecting the A320's reputation here on airliners.net and a few other geeky websites


I'm not so sure...Ever since the Airbus FBW system has been put in doubt in June 1988, there has been a lingering suspicion about it and how it "limits the authority of the pilot", even among professionals.

This is something Boeing FBW has never suffered from ("Boeing lets the pilot control the plane" they say) even though the system's function is the same as on an Airbus (the only major difference being at the edge of the envelope, but those are rarely used features). And even 25 years later, we still have to read stuff like reply 29...

- in the industry, after 25 years of flawless operations, this suspicion might not be important anymore, but who knows how many aircraft-purchase decisions were impacted in the early days ?
- the Habsheim crash is also well remembered in France, especially as it was closely followed by the Mont St Odile crash in the same area. And this suspicion of all-things-Airbus keeps surfacing, and could very well impact the judicial proceedings in cases like the Concorde or AF447, especially with the particular French judicial system with it's self-appointed "experts"


So my reasonable self agrees with Tom when looking at the risk/benefit ratio....on the other hand, being reasonable is so boring, the little boy in me prefers to see planes flying than sitting on the ground   
My goal as an engineer is to fill my soul with coffee and become immortal
 
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scbriml
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:35 am

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 41):
I'm not so sure...Ever since the Airbus FBW system has been put in doubt in June 1988, there has been a lingering suspicion about it and how it "limits the authority of the pilot", even among professionals.

Not normally from those that actually understand it.

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 41):
And this suspicion of all-things-Airbus keeps surfacing

I would still dispute that 95% of the general public knows or cares about it.

Regardless, I'm looking forward to seeing it perform on the Tuesday of the show. Of course, it's worth remembering that Boeing has previously flown the 787 at Farnborough. In formation, no less!

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Photo © Steve Brimley



[Edited 2012-06-30 03:51:52]

[Edited 2012-06-30 03:52:22]
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
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airmagnac
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:28 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 42):

Not normally from those that actually understand it.

Sure, no objection from me, but did/do all decision makers understand it ?

Quoting scbriml (Reply 42):
I would still dispute that 95% of the general public knows or cares about it.

In the world, sure. My point was about the French, and many (not most, for sure) of them know about Habsheim & Mont St Odile &" how the BEA covered Airbus who had designed a faulty system leaving the pilot no choice but to crash". And how this perception, combined with the specificities of the French Justice system, can be a problem. And as Airbus is part French...
If you read le français, plowing through comments on media websites like the Figaro, Libé, Le Point, or even more specialized forums, can be quite horrifying  


I'm not saying this is a major handicap for Airbus, it's more of a nuisance. But a nuisance the company could probably do without

Quoting scbriml (Reply 42):
Regardless, I'm looking forward to seeing it perform on the Tuesday of the show.

Once again, no objections there   
My goal as an engineer is to fill my soul with coffee and become immortal
 
Ruscoe
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:38 am

Maybe Boeing just want to show how quiet it is?

Ruscoe
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:20 pm

I am hugely disappointed that I'm not attending.
 
tom355uk
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:55 pm

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 41):
This is something Boeing FBW has never suffered from ("Boeing lets the pilot control the plane" they say) even though the system's function is the same as on an Airbus

If you are at the edge of the flight envelope, the only thing that the 'let the pilot control the plane' crew are going to do is crash much harder than an Airbus (or Boeing FBW, flown without overriding the protections) and probably kill more people. It really gets my goat, all these (not to be rude, but frankly: old) 'Ex-Nam' pilots who genuinely believe they can instantaneously interpret the AoA, +/- G limits, airspeed and configuration to better effect than safe, proven computer technology.

Back on topic, I guess that during the flight testing phase some flights were flown in a not-too-dissimilar fashion to a demo flight - max angle/zoom climbs, high bank angles and the like. However, these were conducted probably over 10,000 feet, out over the ocean, without the cameras and instant social media sharing capabilities of the general public. Like Tom says, an entirely different proposition.

Nothing affects public confidence and sales like a smoking hole in the ground on a brand new type, although the SSJ still seems to be keeping all the plates spinning....
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jumpjets
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:30 pm

Totally off topic - but wouldn't the heart quicken if at the 2013 Trooping of the Colour in London the traditional flypast included a brand new BA 787 and A380. [if they have been delivered by then] - that would be a demonstration that would be worth having. This year we had the A330 MRTT in the formation and we used to have Concorde so this would seem quite a natural extension of our traditions.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:33 pm

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 47):
Totally off topic - but wouldn't the heart quicken if at the 2013 Trooping of the Colour in London the traditional flypast included a brand new BA 787 and A380.

To think we might possibly have had this not only for the Queen's Jubilee, but also the Opening Ceremonies...
 
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par13del
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RE: 787 Flying Demonstration At Farnborough

Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:11 pm

Quoting tom355uk (Reply 46):
If you are at the edge of the flight envelope, the only thing that the 'let the pilot control the plane' crew are going to do is crash much harder than an Airbus (or Boeing FBW, flown without overriding the protections) and probably kill more people

My question would be if you are flying a Boeing which does not have the protections of an Airbus a/c why would you attempt to fly as if it did, certainely the demonstration will have to be based on what is safe and recommended for the Boeing control systems, everything I have read says they are somewhat different.

The laws of physics and flight are not changed by whether its a Boeing or Airbus, but the procedures used by the pilots to fly the a/c are influenced by the control systems, so...............to each his own. Boeing and Airbus a/c are operated safely on a daily basis all over the world, it just a different way of accomplishing the same goal, safe transportation.

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