klwright69
Topic Author
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Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:13 pm

I will believe it when I see it, but it's interesting for discussion. I wonder how much of a market exists.

http://business-news.thestreet.com/d...ew-zealand-may-add-flights-dia-1/1
 
azstar
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:20 pm

Since UA has forsaken its plans to add IAH-AKL service, it seems like a good opportunity for NZ to take advantage of Star Alliance connections there. Connecting opportunities at IAH are greater than at DEN, IMO.
 
drerx7
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:21 pm

The title should read 'Air New Zealand to Houston or Denver"
It being discussed already in the IAH pulldown thread. Here is the last post I posted as it really should be a separate topic...
Quoting point2point (Reply 78):
Can this only fuel my thoughts that JS maybe coulda called his friends down at NZ and had them throw DEN into the mix just as a way to get back at IAH? Those conspiracy theories, eh?

LOL...

Quoting point2point (Reply 78):
Although maybe DEN got the whole airport world's attention with their $22M and the DEN-NRT route?

Maybe, I honestly think the mention of DEN is concessionary and the real meat of the issue is that New Zealand also lamented the non start of this flight, as evidenced by media from down under. They could be postulating a way to get back to IAH. As mentioned before if they did do this I think a mixture of less than weekly frequencies alternating between DEN and IAH may work. The interesting part of the article is that they say they are looking to start before the 2014 anticipated arrival of the 787s and that "cities like Houston and Dallas" are already within the range of their current 777s.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
ZKOJH
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:08 pm

Where would the flex in the current 772 fleet come from? The only way it could happen before 2014 is scale back the lhr-hkg flight, by the sounds of it then they will be keeping the 763s longer then?  
Vietnam time..
 
cat3dual
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Considering the carrier has options for a dozen or so 777s, these could easily be firmed up. Not to mention the second-hand 77L and 77W aircraft on the market.
 
G500
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:00 pm

First of all, Denver is a very small market, this is absurd. Second, the altitude there is like 7000ft. I wonder how far a 777 can fly west bound.
 
point2point
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:02 pm

I did a good job of resisting starting a thread here on this, partly because it was being discussed in the UA IAH pulldown thread. And I do like that someone else start it   

Nonetheless, I got the impression from the original CAPA article where I first read it that it seemed pretty much improbable of happening, and even considered that UA people got their friends at NZ just to mention DEN in that article so the IAH people would read it and p*ss in their shorts. UA is after payback with IAH after the City of Houston approved the FIS over at HOU, and it does seem like UA here has more fury than a woman scorned.

Then I read the Denver Post article about this, and this article states that the DEN officials didn't even know anything about this, and they haven't even talked with the NZ people. This group I think is pretty savvy, but to not know about this, and then not having even to have talked with the NZ people, well, it seems that a AKL-DEN route is pretty far from their minds as well

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 2):

Moving along, my new friend here posted some thoughts that I had about this, but those were in for fun.

Now here are some important logistics with this here....

As DEN is mentioned along with IAH, per the Great Circle Mapper, DEN is about 60 miles less distance to AKL than IAH, with DEN at 7352 miles and IAH from AKL 7415. I believe the flight would be planned with a 787 if for DEN. I also plugged in a couple of other points of data there, and I do believe that the 787 could make it both ways, w/o restrictions, for both U.S. airports.

Okay, if by some miracle if this flight were to ever materialize, I averaged out the time for this at about 13 hours or so flight, for now not dealing with maybe a couple of hours difference in travel direction, but this would be the basic setup. With the time difference of 17 of 18 hours, I think that logistically a flight could leave AKL at 12 pm (past a morning bank in AKL) and it would arrive in DEN 5 pm, same day, with still enough time for a DEN evening bank. The plane would then be on the ground for a couple of hours and leave DEN at 7 pm, (catching the day's banks, and avoiding at least the real hot part of the hot/high) and it would arrive in AKL at 3 pm, 2 days later, and still in time for an evening bank at AKL.

So if I did my calculation correctly here, timing-wise, it really wouldn't be such a bad flight within these parameters.

When NK announced, of all places, that it was starting up in DEN, I was so flabberghasted by this that I thought that now I'd seen everything now in this crazy airline/airport business. So about NZ serving DEN....... I'd say probably not, but then, who knows?



   
 
bobnwa
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 5):
Second, the altitude there is like 7000ft

What does"like" 7000ft mean? Is it more than or less than 7000ft?
 
planespotting
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:14 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 7):
What does"like" 7000ft mean? Is it more than or less than 7000ft?

Isn't it roughly one mile? (mile high city)

Wikipedia says DEN is at 5,431. So 1,569 less than 7,000 feet.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
dia77
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 5):
First of all, Denver is a very small market, this is absurd. Second, the altitude there is like 7000ft. I wonder how far a 777 can fly west bound.

Denver is at 5280ft - not sure where you got 7000ft. While Denver isn't a huge market, Colorado has more people than all of New Zealand. Just like Icelandair found a niche with outdoorsy like minded travelers, NZ might find a similar market in DEN (plus massive Star Alliance connections).
 
UNITED91
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 5):
First of all, Denver is a very small market, this is absurd. Second, the altitude there is like 7000ft.

Altitude is 5,431 ft.  
Quoting drerx7 (Reply 2):
As mentioned before if they did do this I think a mixture of less than weekly frequencies alternating between DEN and IAH may work.

I agree, the flight would definitely have to be less then daily to work for DEN.

I think this flight could work with the right planning and help from its Star Alliance partners. But who knows, I never would've thought NZ would consider DEN.
 
drerx7
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:23 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 6):
As DEN is mentioned along with IAH, per the Great Circle Mapper, DEN is about 60 miles less distance to AKL than IAH, with DEN at 7352 miles and IAH from AKL 7415. I believe the flight would be planned with a 787 if for DEN. I also plugged in a couple of other points of data there, and I do believe that the 787 could make it both ways, w/o restrictions, for both U.S. airports.

Now what about their 777s? I can see IAH opening up more convenient (for lack of a better term) connection opportunities...would DEN encroach on a similar catchment as LAX or SFO? This is why I'd see 4x weekly IAH and 3x weekly DEN (vs. IAH solely or 4x DEN).

In reading the various articles, I am not sure how much of this is media wordplay to try and appease the NZ locals that were anticipating the projected $ that IAH-AKL was supposedly going to provide to the local economy vs. actual plans. With that said, AirNZ 787s will need to go somewhere...
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
roseflyer
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:31 pm

I wonder about this. NZ says DEN is within range of the 777, but the range charts don’t look very good for a 777-200ER operating more than 7,000 miles from 5,000ft.

Also, NZ has a monopoly on US – New Zealand. DEN offers some more connection points than SFO/YVR/LAX, but mostly to second tier cities. What would NZ get from going into DEN or IAH? I don’t think overall traffic to New Zealand would go up significantly with a connection offered from DEN or IAH.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting dia77 (Reply 9):
Denver is at 5280ft - not sure where you got 7000ft. While Denver isn't a huge market, Colorado has more people than all of New Zealand. Just like Icelandair found a niche with outdoorsy like minded travelers, NZ might find a similar market in DEN (plus massive Star Alliance connections).

Still don't know what AKL-DEN's advantage is over AKL-IAH, other than a few Pacific Northwest and plain states connections.
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:58 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 12):
but the range charts don’t look very good for a 777-200ER operating more than 7,000 miles from 5,000ft.

They look down right ugly! To me this means NZ didn't have DEN in mind when it said they could operate with their existing 77E aircraft. Westbound IAH-AKL is about 7000nm ESAD and their 77E's should be good for about a 37t payload according to the load/range table for the type. Typically they would be out from AKL about 1800 into IAH 1430; out at 2230 into AKL at 0600. This would allow for some Australian feeds in both directions and to get 1630 outbound wave from IAH and the ~1700 wave out of ORD/EWR /YYZ etc. to IAH.
 
135mech
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:17 pm

Please remember that DIA has a 16,000ft runway that they extended from 12,000 ft a while back JUST FOR THIS... Altitude isn't the problem anymore. They built it specifically to overcome this problem and now there are regular flights on LH's 346's direct to Germany (wouldn't have been able to happen on the shorter runways). This is how ANA can justify DEN-NRT direct also.
135Mech
 
drerx7
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:27 pm

Quoting 135mech (Reply 15):
now there are regular flights on LH's 346's direct to Germany (wouldn't have been able to happen on the shorter runways). This is how ANA can justify DEN-NRT direct also.

Its not as simple as that. DEN-AKL is more than 2,000nm farther than either of the routes you mentioned. A 77E would take payload restrictions even if the runways was 30,000ft long on DEN-AKL at that altitude. The 787 made DEN-NRT finacially viable, not the runways.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
Qantas744er
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:34 pm

Quoting 135mech (Reply 15):

Please remember that DIA has a 16,000ft runway that they extended from 12,000 ft a while back JUST FOR THIS... Altitude isn't the problem anymore. They built it specifically to overcome this problem and now there are regular flights on LH's 346's direct to Germany (wouldn't have been able to happen on the shorter runways). This is how ANA can justify DEN-NRT direct also.

Incorrect.

Lufthansa operated the A343 without issue from DEN all the way to FRA. Of course the RTOW was below MTOW, and the A346 and B744 lifted even more payload out of the 12,000ft runways.

The 16,000 runway simply made the typical performance limiting factor (field length) less of an issue. However the limting factor you will always come across in DEN is tire speed! (approx. 204kts groundspeed for B744/B777). So the NZ 777 would not be able to go out at MTOW in DEN even if the runway was 25,000ft because of the maximum tire speed.

Altitude is precisely the problem because at sea level, your ground speed would be nowhere near 204kts at rotation on a MTOW departure. (B744/B777/B767).
Happiness is V1 in Lagos
 
airfrnt
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:38 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 5):
First of all, Denver is a very small market, this is absurd. Second, the altitude there is like 7000ft. I wonder how far a 777 can fly west bound.

Two incorrect statements in the same sentence. O&D wise, due to a high propensity of travel, Denver basically is a airport "oasis' in the middle of the great American desert. Also, the city is at a Mile High.

There are a lot of different possibilities opening up thanks to the 787 which has the golden combo of more range, and less mandatory seats.
 
135mech
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 16):
Quoting 135mech (Reply 15):
now there are regular flights on LH's 346's direct to Germany (wouldn't have been able to happen on the shorter runways). This is how ANA can justify DEN-NRT direct also.

Its not as simple as that. DEN-AKL is more than 2,000nm farther than either of the routes you mentioned. A 77E would take payload restrictions even if the runways was 30,000ft long on DEN-AKL at that altitude. The 787 made DEN-NRT finacially viable, not the runways.

It does and HAS made the difference...the longer you can wait to rotate at a higher altitude, the more airflow/airspeed you can gain to overcome the restrictions... It was specifically why they extended the runway. I know from being on the OLD KC-135's in the desert conditions and high altitudes of the many places I have gone! When we are working out of Nellis AFB, the tankers will stage out of McCarran due to thier 14,000 foot runway so we can take off with the required and NOT restricted fuel loads.

My dad was a pilot for United on the DC-10s' out of Stapleton and the later DIA and wishes they would have had that longer runway back then!
135Mech
 
135mech
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:42 pm

Quoting Qantas744er (Reply 17):
Incorrect.

Lufthansa operated the A343 without issue from DEN all the way to FRA. Of course the RTOW was below MTOW, and the A346 and B744 lifted even more payload out of the 12,000ft runways

So, it was restricted... then I was correct...
135Mech
 
point2point
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:46 pm

I'm thinking about the wind patterns here with such a flight. I think that I know them in the Northern Hemisphere, but I'm not sure about the Southern Hemisphere. I also think that I had it explained to me in another thread a few years ago, but what thread that was in, and to go searching.....

Anyways, I keep thinking that the southern is the opposite of the northern, but maybe I'm wrong? I would think that on the the AKL-DEN, the plane would be flying into the headwinds, and then when it crosses the equator, it would pick up the tailwinds? And the opposite for the DEN-AKL segment? Or would it be all tailwinds from AKL-DEN, and all headwinds DEN-AKL? Now I'm looking here what would be average or normal, we know that there can be some weird variances, so......

Does anyone know how this would work here? If so, please give me some info if anyone can.

edit added.... where's mariner?

 

[Edited 2012-07-03 10:47:14]
 
drerx7
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting airfrnt (Reply 18):
Two incorrect statements in the same sentence. O&D wise, due to a high propensity of travel, Denver basically is a airport "oasis' in the middle of the great American desert. Also, the city is at a Mile High.

There are a lot of different possibilities opening up thanks to the 787 which has the golden combo of more range, and less mandatory seats.

I believe the poster is talking about the specific market from DEN to AKL not DEN's O&D as a whole. The market to AKL from DEN is very small...just like IAHs - so the routes would have to born from connections.

Quoting 135mech (Reply 20):
So, it was restricted... then I was correct...

Not exactly

Quoting 135mech (Reply 19):
It does and HAS made the difference...the longer you can wait to rotate at a higher altitude, the more airflow/airspeed you can gain to overcome the restrictions... It was specifically why they extended the runway. I know from being on the OLD KC-135's in the desert conditions and high altitudes of the many places I have gone! When we are working out of Nellis AFB, the tankers will stage out of McCarran due to thier 14,000 foot runway so we can take off with the required and NOT restricted fuel loads.

You are ignoring the rest of the facts. DEN-AKL is more than 2,000miles further than the routes you speak of. Re-read my post and Qantas744er's. If you still feel that the runway extension will make DEN-AKL feasible with a 77E in lieu of the laws of physics then we just have to agree to disagree.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:08 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 21):
Does anyone know how this would work here? If so, please give me some info if anyone can.

The headwinds are when heading southbound. Look at reply 14. The ESAD is about 7000nm , the airways distance is about 6500nm. based on timetable times. Typically these times are on the high side. But they allow for a benchmark as it were. I have used the LAX-AKL times to calculate the ESAD ( equivalent still air distance) since the airways routing would be over LAX.
 
135mech
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:09 pm

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 22):
You are ignoring the rest of the facts. DEN-AKL is more than 2,000miles further than the routes you speak of. Re-read my post and Qantas744er's. If you still feel that the runway extension will make DEN-AKL feasible with a 77E in lieu of the laws of physics then we just have to agree to disagree.



Okay, I'm not ignoring the rest of the facts, but with the beginning of the thread people repeatedly mentioning that DEN was high altitude and not taking into account the new longer runway, that was my point behind my initial post.

I never mentioned 777's, just that I know pilots personally that would have given anything to have that longer runway back in the day of underpowered technologies.

The airport and city of Denver have done wonderfully at making huge strides to acquire more traffic inspite of it's geographical challenges and that was my original point, but most a.netters love to attack on here instead of just adding to...

Cheers.
135Mech
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting dia77 (Reply 9):

FI also has the advantage of connecting major U.S. cities with major European cities via KEF at a cheaper price than other carriers (BA, AF, DL, UA). Not sure if NZ could do the same via AKL to Australia/Asia from U.S. cities.
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
roseflyer
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:56 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 21):
I'm thinking about the wind patterns here with such a flight. I think that I know them in the Northern Hemisphere, but I'm not sure about the Southern Hemisphere. I also think that I had it explained to me in another thread a few years ago, but what thread that was in, and to go searching.....

Predominantly north south flights typically don't have significantly different flight times. NZ's LAX-AKL service is about 20 minutes longer on average than AKL-LAX. DEN-AKL or IAH-AKL would be a bit bigger of a difference, but I would not think that it would be more than 30 minutes. Either way, DEN-AKL would have headwinds, altitude and potentially hot temperatures in the summer affecting it. This is a route that the 772LR would be more useful on.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Qantas744er
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:29 pm

Quoting 135mech (Reply 24):
Okay, I'm not ignoring the rest of the facts, but with the beginning of the thread people repeatedly mentioning that DEN was high altitude and not taking into account the new longer runway, that was my point behind my initial post.

I never mentioned 777's, just that I know pilots personally that would have given anything to have that longer runway back in the day of underpowered technologies.

The airport and city of Denver have done wonderfully at making huge strides to acquire more traffic inspite of it's geographical challenges and that was my original point, but most a.netters love to attack on here instead of just adding to...

Cheers.

Nobody is questioning the efforts the city of Denver has made to improve the conditions!

However as i have already attempted to make clear to you, lengthening the runway to 16,000ft improved things only to a certain extent.

No B744,B777,B767,A388,A346,A343,A333,A332 will be able to depart DEN at its structural MTOW for one reason and one reason only. The ALTITUDE the airport is sitting at.

As you mentioned, back when your father flew the DC-10 out of Stapleton, the limiting factor was field length.

With the new runway at DEN the limiting factor of field length was solved, and a new factor became the limiting restriction MTOW departures. (MAXIMUM TIRE SPEED).

That is the very reason they did not build a 18,000ft or even 20,000ft runway. After all, if runway length alone would have allowed for the weight restrictions to be overcome, why not go ahead and build the extra pavement right?

[Edited 2012-07-03 12:42:06]
Happiness is V1 in Lagos
 
roseflyer
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:47 pm

Quoting Qantas744er (Reply 27):
However as i have already attempted to make clear to you, lengthening the runway to 16,000ft improved things only to a certain extent.

No B744,B777,B767,A388,A346,A343,A333,A332 will be able to depart DEN at its structural MTOW for one reason and one reason only. The ALTITUDE the airport is sitting at.

Just to help clarify. At 5,000ft and Normal Temp +15C, a 777-200ER is limited to about 580K MTOW from its normal of close to 660K lbs. With a 6500 nm route using ETOPS rules, the airplane only has about 50,000lbs of useable payload. If weather is bad and they have to have CHC as an alternate, that drops further to about 40,000lbs of payload. Those weight restrictions limit capacity to about 200-250 passengers. NZ’s 777s have 313 seats, so that’s a significant weight restriction. I doubt the 777-200ER can make any money on a route like that. The extra runway length certainly helps as a 10,000ft runway would restrict payload to about 540K lbs, which would mean that the airplane would essentially only be able to operate DEN-AKL as a ferry flight. However, 16,000ft of runway doesn’t overcome the elevation and the fact that 6500nm is close to the max practical operating range of a 777-200ER.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
ZKOJH
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:50 pm

''cat3dual'' Considering the carrier has options for a dozen or so 777s, these could easily be firmed up. Not to mention the second-hand 77L and 77W aircraft on the market.

NZ haven't as of yet 2Q of 2012 even thought about taking options on T7's, this is where they have gone wrong, they just order more 787's, and they don't like going for second hand a/c, 2013 slots are very full and even leading into 2014. 77L's have been described as '' a gas station' with wheels from people within NZ even tho the markets NZ are after need such an aircraft.

two options would be to either scale back the LHR-HKG route to say 3 a week, and when DPS stops in Oct move the 763 over to the PVG route then, say run the 763 4x weekly on that route, this would free up a 772 to fly to another US point, but then if your trying to grow the China market the 763 is the wrong a/c.

were still 23 months away from the 1st 787-9 to arrive and this should replace the 763's!

but overall I can't see Denver on the radar ?!

or could they use the 2 - 744's that are left to do something?

  
Vietnam time..
 
zkeoj
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:42 am

Maybe just wishful thinking, but couldn't they do AKL-DEN-HNL-AKL?

DEN would be very attractive to me (as would be IAH) for connections to Europe. I just try to avoid LAX... I go SFO or even YVR if I can (or Asia anyway).

Cheers
micha
 
derwentwater747
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:02 am

yo. Can they reallyt stretch that bird out to ORD instead? I thought mile high and hot would prohibit westbound. Also, ORD more O and D and money etc. gotta be a rumour.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:11 am

Call me crazy but instead of competing with UA on LAXLHR, how about killing 2 birds at once using 787-9 to do AKL-DEN-LHR ?
 
drerx7
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:16 am

Quoting DerwentWater747 (Reply 31):

yo. Can they reallyt stretch that bird out to ORD instead? I thought mile high and hot would prohibit westbound. Also, ORD more O and D and money etc. gotta be a rumour.

Well Air NZ officials specifically mentioned Houston and Denver. AKL-ORD is 800 miles or so further than AKL-DEN and 700 or so miles further than AKL-IAH - I don't think that the 777 could make it profitably. ORD may preclude the catchment that they are looking for from IAH though. IAH-AKL would be perfect for connections from airports in a swath of territory from MSP to about MCO. DEN-AKL would be great for a narrower piece of real estate when looking at the great circle mapper, say as far east as DTW/ORD as far north as YYC and south to maybe OMA.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
UA735WL
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:22 am

Quoting g500 (Reply 5):
Second, the altitude there is like 7000ft. I wonder how far a 777 can fly west bound.

The altitude at DEN is not a problem. 16R/34L is 16000 ft. long and was designed to let fully loaded long haul a/c take off without trouble.

Quoting dia77 (Reply 9):
While Denver isn't a huge market, Colorado has more people than all of New Zealand. Just like Icelandair found a niche with outdoorsy like minded travelers, NZ might find a similar market in DEN (plus massive Star Alliance connections).

This seems logical, as New Zealand does seem to attract "outdoorsy" people, which Denver has a lot of. NZ could probably support a (seasonal if need be) weekly DEN-AKL 772 flight.
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions" -Tex Johnston
 
DeltaB717
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:31 am

Quoting dia77 (Reply 9):
While Denver isn't a huge market, Colorado has more people than all of New Zealand.

Not to mention a reasonably attractive connection point that avoids LAX.
 
drerx7
Posts: 4203
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:32 am

Quoting UA735WL (Reply 34):
The altitude at DEN is not a problem. 16R/34L is 16000 ft. long and was designed to let fully loaded long haul a/c take off without trouble.

  
Check out these earlier post.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 28):
Just to help clarify. At 5,000ft and Normal Temp +15C, a 777-200ER is limited to about 580K MTOW from its normal of close to 660K lbs. With a 6500 nm route using ETOPS rules, the airplane only has about 50,000lbs of useable payload. If weather is bad and they have to have CHC as an alternate, that drops further to about 40,000lbs of payload. Those weight restrictions limit capacity to about 200-250 passengers. NZ’s 777s have 313 seats, so that’s a significant weight restriction. I doubt the 777-200ER can make any money on a route like that. The extra runway length certainly helps as a 10,000ft runway would restrict payload to about 540K lbs, which would mean that the airplane would essentially only be able to operate DEN-AKL as a ferry flight. However, 16,000ft of runway doesn’t overcome the elevation and the fact that 6500nm is close to the max practical operating range of a 777-200ER.
Quoting Qantas744er (Reply 27):
Nobody is questioning the efforts the city of Denver has made to improve the conditions!

However as i have already attempted to make clear to you, lengthening the runway to 16,000ft improved things only to a certain extent.

No B744,B777,B767,A388,A346,A343,A333,A332 will be able to depart DEN at its structural MTOW for one reason and one reason only. The ALTITUDE the airport is sitting at.

As you mentioned, back when your father flew the DC-10 out of Stapleton, the limiting factor was field length.

With the new runway at DEN the limiting factor of field length was solved, and a new factor became the limiting restriction MTOW departures. (MAXIMUM TIRE SPEED).

That is the very reason they did not build a 18,000ft or even 20,000ft runway. After all, if runway length alone would have allowed for the weight restrictions to be overcome, why not go ahead and build the extra pavement right?
Quoting Qantas744er (Reply 17):
Quoting 135mech (Reply 15):

Please remember that DIA has a 16,000ft runway that they extended from 12,000 ft a while back JUST FOR THIS... Altitude isn't the problem anymore. They built it specifically to overcome this problem and now there are regular flights on LH's 346's direct to Germany (wouldn't have been able to happen on the shorter runways). This is how ANA can justify DEN-NRT direct also.

Incorrect.

Lufthansa operated the A343 without issue from DEN all the way to FRA. Of course the RTOW was below MTOW, and the A346 and B744 lifted even more payload out of the 12,000ft runways.

The 16,000 runway simply made the typical performance limiting factor (field length) less of an issue. However the limting factor you will always come across in DEN is tire speed! (approx. 204kts groundspeed for B744/B777). So the NZ 777 would not be able to go out at MTOW in DEN even if the runway was 25,000ft because of the maximum tire speed.

Altitude is precisely the problem because at sea level, your ground speed would be nowhere near 204kts at rotation on a MTOW departure. (B744/B777/B767).
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aznmadsci
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:50 am

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 35):
Not to mention a reasonably attractive connection point that avoids LAX.

Same could be true for IAH.
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UA735WL
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:56 am

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 36):

I stand corrected. But it does seem like NZ could make it work given an aircraft that could overcome tire restrictions. (will the 789 have this capability?)
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UNITED91
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:07 am

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 36):
Check out these earlier post.

LOL

Quoting UA735WL (Reply 34):
This seems logical, as New Zealand does seem to attract "outdoorsy" people, which Denver has a lot of.

More importantly, both DEN and IAH offer a great connection point other than dealing with LAX/SFO.
 
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:25 am

Does the route have to be direct and operated by NZ all the way to DEN? Maybe NZ could start IAH-AKL and codeshare pax on UA's DEN-IAH flight for a connection in IAH to said AKL flight. Or, for that matter, would it make sense to codeshare with UA on flights from DEN to any city in the US serviced by NZ? These would allow NZ to enter the DEN market, no?
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UNITED91
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:48 am

Quoting UA735WL (Reply 40):
Or, for that matter, would it make sense to codeshare with UA on flights from DEN to any city in the US serviced by NZ?

NZ already does codeshare with UA on flights to DEN.
 
Caspian27
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:27 am

Quoting Qantas744er (Reply 17):

204 kts may be the limitation for these aircraft you mentioned, I don't know because I don't fly them. But I am a DEN based pilot and I wouldn't think an aircraft with leading-edge devices would get anywhere near that speed on rotation or touchdown even accounting for the DEN elevation.
Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...
 
thegeek
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:12 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 28):
Just to help clarify. At 5,000ft and Normal Temp +15C, a 777-200ER is limited to about 580K MTOW from its normal of close to 660K lbs.

I may be just a simple hyper chicken from a backwater asteroid, but doesn't this graph: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/7772sec3.pdf
on page 11 show that at 6000ft a 77E can lift 610klbs+ off a 16k ft runway.

580k would be for a 773A with a 90klbs engine.

Temp is assumed 3 degrees C though, not 15C at that elevation, at least according to page 3.
 
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:30 pm

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 29):
Not to mention the second-hand 77L and 77W aircraft on the market.

Bingo. There is a brand-new Boeing 777-200LR (F-OLRB) sitting somewhere around Paine Field. Air Austral, who ordered it, cannot afford to take delivery of it. Is there some possibility that Air New Zealand could (by some means) acquire it? In the past a few Air New Zealand executives have rather disparagingly called it a flying fuel-tank, but it seems that it would be the perfect aircraft for this route (well until the 787s arrive).

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 32):

Call me crazy but instead of competing with UA on LAXLHR, how about killing 2 birds at once using 787-9 to do AKL-DEN-LHR ?

I believe that Air NZ can legally only carry a limited number of passengers between the USA and UK.
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:46 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 44):
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 32):Call me crazy but instead of competing with UA on LAXLHR, how about killing 2 birds at once using 787-9 to do AKL-DEN-LHR ?I believe that Air NZ can legally only carry a limited number of passengers between the USA and UK.

I thought that rule only applied to LAX/SFO services?
 
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zkojq
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:08 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 45):
I thought that rule only applied to LAX/SFO services?

I understood that the limit was the total number of seats between anywhere in the USA and the UK. I could be wrong though. Macilree can clarify for us, I'm sure.
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:23 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 43):
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 28):
Just to help clarify. At 5,000ft and Normal Temp 15C, a 777-200ER is limited to about 580K MTOW from its normal of close to 660K lbs.

I may be just a simple hyper chicken from a backwater asteroid, but doesn't this graph: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/7772sec3.pdf
on page 11 show that at 6000ft a 77E can lift 610klbs off a 16k ft runway.

580k would be for a 773A with a 90klbs engine.

Temp is assumed 3 degrees C though, not 15C at that elevation, at least according to page 3.

Are you sure you are not looking at the 4,000ft line?
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thegeek
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:58 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 47):
Are you sure you are not looking at the 4,000ft line?

Right, yes. At DEN you might get to (I estimate) 595k lbs if the line were drawn to it's elevation but that is a long way from the sea level 660k lbs MTOW.

Question: Why do you need to cut back on the flaps at higher altitudes/weights? Can the engines not cope with the drag?
 
thegeek
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RE: Air New Zealand To Denver?

Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:58 am

Can anyone actually tell me what this flying to DEN instead of IAH is for? I very roughly estimate the payload out of IAH would be approx 80k lbs - enough for a full pax load and some freight with a 77E. Certainly more potential revenue than the DEN-AKL flight.

I think this is just DEN airport going for some publicity.

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