bavair
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LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:22 am

I haven't seen this posted anywhere and its pretty fresh of the press:

Lufthansa passage executive Kay Kratky confirmed that Lufthansa will be moving the flight to CPT from FRA to MUC due to the strict nightban at FRA. The flight will be moved for the coming winterflightplan starting in October.
He also said that if the nightban in Frankfurt is not handled more elastically in the future, the late evening/early morning banks will "completely dry out" in Frankfurt.

Article on airliners.de and focus.de (both in German only, sorry).
 
ba319-131
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:58 am

Do we take it this means LH will relocate some A380's to MUC or will they downgrade the flight to a 346?
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
imag
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:02 am

Here's an article in English.

http://www.news24.com/Travel/Flights...ancels-Cape-Town-flight-20120704-2

At least Cape Town is not loosing the flight like the SA flight to LHR.

[Edited 2012-07-04 03:03:36]
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:16 am

Poltics has to act now. They have to change the air traffic laws to make night operations possible at large hubs.

This situation cannot go on like that.
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ba319-131
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:17 am

My bad, CPT is not and A380, got myself mixed up with JNB!

More coffee needed!
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
Qazar
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:27 am

My first flight ever was to Frankfurt, so that airport has a great big place in my heart... This said, I believe that the limitations on this airport's growth, inability to add more runways, space, and now political influences through an unjustified night ban, have all contributed to my conclusion that Frankfurt's time may be up!... The likes of Charles de Gaulle and Schipol have no problems with adding runways and terminals allowing these airports to support their respective cities' expanding economies. Yes, Heathrow may have bigger problems than FRA to deal with expansion, but London also has Gatwick, Stanstead, Lutton, and City airports to support the London economy... and Hahn is not a justifiable option.

Considering the location and economics of Munich and its airport, I think it would be wise for LH to consider Munich as their future main hub by transferring the bulk of their operations into this airport.. If only to teach Frankfurt politicians a lesson... As Frankfurt remains a major economic and financial European centre, a presence should definitely be maintained there serving main International hubs with a fleet of A380s to the likes of Tokyo, Beijing, Shanghai, LAX, NYC, and the major cities around Europe and the rest of the World, but the bulk of their operations should relocate to Munich where they know they can easily expand the terminals, runways, and operations without restrictions of space and time...

Berlin should also be brought into the equation as they consider a northern hub as they dilute away their Frankfurt operations.

I know I may be ranting nonsense, and believe me that I'm as environmentally sensitive as most people.... But, it really gets to me how people will move close to an airport, then complain of the noise... IT'S AN AIRPORT!!! BIG NOISY PLANES ARE THERE!!! YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT?

Thanks for reading me.... Cheers to all!
 
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robffm2
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:26 pm

I believe too that the night ban should be handled more sensible. Also I believe that neighbors of the airport have a right to sleep.

Let's keep in mind that the airport has extended in last years by a big margin and will continue to grow:
- The NW runway is in operation (and the nightban was part of the deal to get it approved)
- The first part of the extension of T1 just went into operation
- T3 construction is under way

So it remains the problem of the night ban. Moving one or two flights to another hub will help easing the situation. Other departing routes might help as well. Quieter planes will certainly help too. There is a lot of more that can be done and I remain hopeful that soon the situation will be better. For pax and neighbors!
 
r2rho
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:14 pm

In the various FRA curfew threads people kept asking for examples of flights or passengers moving away from FRA due to the high risk of missing connections with the inflexible night ban. Well, here's one. I would not be surprised to see more follow, but only as far as MUC's limited capacity can take it.

Quoting Qazar (Reply 5):
I think it would be wise for LH to consider Munich as their future main hub by transferring the bulk of their operations into this airport

Nope, can't do that because the 3rd runway at MUC has been voted down recently in a city referendum:

Munich Citizens Decide About Third Runway (by A342 Jun 17 2012 in Civil Aviation)

And with MUC being close to capacity at peak times already, LH does not have the option to shift any large amount of flights to MUC. Their hands are tied at both their home hubs.
 
dazeflight
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:23 pm

I don't know where the problem is. A single destination is moved from one hub to the other, FRA does not even lose the destination because DE is adding two weekly flights and there's quite a gap in MUC after AB gave up CPT a year ago despite high loads. Looks like a decision that's been driven by a few factors, the night ban being only one of them.
 
r2rho
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:25 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 7):
examples of flights or passengers moving away from FRA due to the high risk of missing connections with the inflexible night ban.

As a matter of fact, one of the OP's links gives some numbers: since october, 120 take-offs rejected, 14000 pax affected, of which 10000 from LH. That's quite a few hotel nights to pay.
 
aloges
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:33 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 9):
As a matter of fact, one of the OP's links gives some numbers: since october, 120 take-offs rejected, 14000 pax affected, of which 10000 from LH. That's quite a few hotel nights to pay.

Ouch.    Sometimes, I wonder who in the world would even know Frankfurt if it wasn't for the airport - a couple of bankers perhaps, but many of those skyscrapers wouldn't be there either without the airport.

Anyway, anti-aviation opinions and policies are currently en vogue. Once they're back out of fashion, we may be able to return to a more sensible use of our multi-billion Euro infrastructure.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:11 pm

Quoting dazeflight (Reply 8):
I don't know where the problem is. A s

I tell you, if the guillotine at 23h00 is not reversed to common practise worldwide, meaning the days tally is worked up until the last flight is out, the evening and early morning banks will be dryed up. It 's more than just one flight.....

Quoting robffm2 (Reply 6):
I believe too that the night ban should be handled more sensible. Also I believe that neighbors of the airport have a right to slee

OK, let's cut road and rail traffic especially those noisy bikes at night.

Seriously, the night curfew was never discussed to the end in the mediation. That's one point. The planning contaned the specification was "no planned flights after 23h00 till 05h00 am". Now, they are even holding flights planned before, whereby, the block times of the long distance flights are 22h15 last one.
Sending back flights at 23h01 to the gate is not part of the initial agreement



Also, the NIMBYs take both hands when the small finger is stretched out.

Let's loook at some facts:

When the Kassel court cut out the 17 night ops between 23 and 5 which were in the planning application and with which the present government won the state election, there were 50 planned night ops on a yearly average.

In words, down from 50 to 17 was not even OKd


These 50 did not even include delaqyed incoming flights which could land until 1 am, now , a few are allowed until midnight.


The night postal hub with about 25 flights was given upo in the 90s or early 2000

the LH night european freighter hub was transferred to CGN in 1995 and is now part of the LEJ DHL hub

LH freighter intercont was reduced and was agreed to reduce to 17 ops

and, finally., US Air Force Rhein Main AB closed in 2005, they could fly anytime day and night and did not need to apply, with C141, C5s and whatever they had. . During the Kosovo war the 707 tanker fleet stationed here, original and re-engined performed hundreds of flights, usually during the night.

It's silent already, but FRA is not a Spa, it is not Bad (Spa) Frankfurt. Frankfurt is a bustling city and should stay that way.

What is happening right now is not a good development for a world class hub in competition with CDG, AMS; not speaking of the Gulf hubs which have no restriction whatsoever..
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MaverickM11
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:16 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 10):
Sometimes, I wonder who in the world would even know Frankfurt if it wasn't for the airport - a couple of bankers perhaps, but many of those skyscrapers wouldn't be there either without the airport.

   Plus there are way too many hubs in the EU; some of them will disappear. It's certainly within the rights of the local community to have some say over their airport, but as with anything else, if you make the airport impossible to use through regulation or costs, the traffic will move elsewhere.
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brilondon
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting robffm2 (Reply 6):
I believe too that the night ban should be handled more sensible. Also I believe that neighbors of the airport have a right to sleep.

The neighbours should realize the when you live near an international airport you have to put up with the noise. This is similar to living near a school, you have to put up with certain issues like driving down your road and not being able to get into your own driveway because of one person who insists that her van be parked on the corner and blocking the road. At FRA, how old are the homes in the vicinity of the airport?
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MUCramp
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:23 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 7):
Nope, can't do that because the 3rd runway at MUC has been voted down recently in a city referendum:


Well, there is lots of other reasons why FRA is LH´s no1 hub and MUC being 2nd. The third rwy is just one tiny bit of it. No doubt about capacity probs in MUC, but for sure not at the time of the day MUC-CPT-MUC will depart/arrive.
 
aloges
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:25 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
It's silent already, but FRA is not a Spa, it is not Bad (Spa) Frankfurt. Frankfurt is a bustling city and should stay that way.

Nicely said, but I'm afraid you have put your finger bang on one of the biggest political mistakes: the new runway and new approach/departure routes annoyed the wrong people (article in German). Nobody really cared whether or not the scruffy paupers in Mörfelden and Kelsterbach had to suffer from noise - and those towns really do get affected, they have been for decades. But once the lickle princes and prime donne in the Taunus and elsewhere had to put up with some of the noise that their beloved high-income, high-mobility lifestyle causes, all hell broke loose and the CDU realised that, for the first time, the noise was annoying their voters.

Hell hath no fury like a German Spießbürger whose peace and calm got disturbed...

[Edited 2012-07-04 08:28:14]
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MUCramp
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:26 pm

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 1):
Do we take it this means LH will relocate some A380's to MUC or will they downgrade the flight to a 346?

According to LHs recent press release it will be an A343

http://presse.lufthansa.com/en/news-...ive/2012/july/04/article/2184.html
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:01 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 15):
scruffy paupers in Mörfelden and Kelsterbach had to suffer from noise

Fact is that, Moerfelden not anyhow, but even Kelsterbach does not hear a fart of a sound from the landings on the new runway. You can see the planes coming in and there's no sound. Except the industrial area around "Im Taubengrund / Gruener Weg" where some people live but the sound from the trucks and forklifts overshadows the landing aircraft. My old office where I worked the eraly 80s I would love to have right now, spotters paradisie   Since I make my business over the phone I would look out of the window the whole day.

What can be heard in residential Kelsterbeach are the take offs from the center runway, that's it.

I live in the Taunus myself, I get sometimes TABUM departures straight over my house, for an hour or so, mostly around 8 to 9 pm. You hear that if you want to hear it. You get angry oif you want to get angry, people are punishing themselves that way.

Besides that, even the CDU voters who oppose that are aminority. But OK, I am in the board of the Mittelstandsvereinigung and we simply don't talk the subject because ONE guy starts screaming straight away. No normal conversation possible.

Much ado about nothing.

If the day is long "Spiegel" Magazine produces a lot of BS,

Elections are won in all of Hesse and in the north of FRA it is already a non-issue.

Back to Kelsterbach, I sometimes, when in the area, park for 20 minutes in taubengrund, car windows open, you see them coming in and in total, at a height pof about 60 metres, they whooosh 5 to 10 seconds and that's it. Same in Sachsenhausen at the Schweizer Strassenfest 2 weeks ago, not a single aircraft could be heard.
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aloges
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:39 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
You hear that if you want to hear it. You get angry if you want to get angry

Maybe the anti-aviation people got carried away by the wave of protests against Stuttgart 21... failing to realise that the expansion of FRA is by no means a white elephant like that train station.

As for listening hard to get annoyed, well, I suppose even I could do that and file a complaint about night flights at CGN. Some of them are barely audible where I live, the horror! I would of course have to find a moment when the aircraft noise isn't drowned out by cars, the tram or my own footsteps, but that is of course nothing a good Wutbürger won't do for his worthy cause...

Anyway, shame I didn't get to snap a photo of the Ju-52 that flew right over my building this afternoon.   

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
If the day is long "Spiegel" Magazine produces a lot of BS,

...but it's still ten times better than the hogwash posted in their forums, not limited to aviation issues.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
Besides that, even the CDU voters who oppose that are a minority.

However, a minority can easily cost a party an election if its members stay home on election day.
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speedygonzales
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:59 pm

I think the nightban is overly restrictive, but I haven't got the least bit of sympathy for Fraport and Lufthansa. The nightban was part of the deal allowing the construction of fourth runway, and then they try to weasel out of the nightban after the opening of the runway.
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PanHAM
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 18):
Anyway, shame I didn't get to snap a photo of the Ju-52 that flew right over my building this afternoon.

I heard and saw the old lady last week over Hofheim, biut she's a bit old now, I loved the sound before hush kitting much more.

Quoting aloges (Reply 18):
However, a minority can easily cost a party an election if its members stay home on election day.

The have a good campaign manager in favor for them, the new FRA mayor. This moron wants the curfew extended from 22h00 to 06h00 am. I suggest that a 2 hour siesta from noon to 2 pm should come in handy anbd we install a petting zoo in each terminal as well. And then we all move to Leipzig.

Leipzig and FRA have been like twins over the centuries, fair, train station, and more, now it moves back .
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LOWS
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:25 pm

What about up-gauging regional flights to free up some slots?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
It's silent already, but FRA is not a Spa, it is not Bad (Spa) Frankfurt. Frankfurt is a bustling city and should stay that way.

  

I can always count on you to make me laugh, PanHAM.
 
BOAC911
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:47 pm

Quoting MUCramp (Reply 14):
Well, there is lots of other reasons why FRA is LH´s no1 hub and MUC being 2nd. The third rwy is just one tiny bit of it. No doubt about capacity probs in MUC, but for sure not at the time of the day MUC-CPT-MUC will depart/arrive.

Everybody's talking about the third runway. I thought Frankfurt would have four now. Which one is number three?
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:55 pm

Quoting LOWS (Reply 21):
I can always count on you to make me laugh, PanHAM.

My pleasure, always at your service, LOWS

@ MUCramp

MUC - has 2 runways, trying to get a third one. My bet at ladborkes will be, yes, they get No. 3

FRA- has four now, of which 2 are parallel and used to be for take offs and landing, the third one is diagonal (18) and for take offs only.

To complement that, we now have a fourth one which is also diagonal parallel to the original 2 but for landings only.

Now, for operations, the R and L runways are used for landings, the C and the 18 for take offs.

Thenm we have a fifth runway as well, which is the IUCE rail line and station.

Alles klar?
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JimJupiter
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 22):

Everybody's talking about the third runway. I thought Frankfurt would have four now. Which one is number three?

The third runway in MUC, not in FRA.
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MUCramp
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:03 pm

Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 22):
Everybody's talking about the third runway. I thought Frankfurt would have four now. Which one is number three?


You're right. FRA has four (at least one being only used for take-offs). Just to specity a bit more: two of them are as close to each other as they are practicially only one rwy and a half, from what I know. Maybe somebody can explain more precise.

MUC has two rwys. There has been a city referendum just a few weeks ago rejecting a third runway which was planned because of a lack of capacity (during several hours of the day). This is why some people do consider it at least kind of interesting that LH moves flights - well, its only one flight actually - from FRA to MUC. The pr of the past month kind of suggested that there won't be any more attractive flights without rwy3.

[Edited 2012-07-04 14:11:19]
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:15 pm

Quoting MUCramp (Reply 25):
You're right. FRA has four (one being only used for take-offs). Just to specity a bit more: two of them are as close to each other as they are practicially only one rwy and a half, from what I know. Maybe somebody can explain more precise

Yes, 25 L, C and R and 07R C and L are the three parallels, Simoultaneous landings can be performed on the L and R runway, the C runway and on the 18 which is the diagonal are used for take offs only..
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sweair
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:57 pm

Wasn't there talk of a curfew for CDG as well?
 
Senchingo
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:03 pm

My personal guess is LH just trying to apply pressure to Fraport by taking a first step as a warning shot.

FRA's very strict regulations about curfew (as posted before "not giving take-off clearance to more than 120 aircraft ready for take-off or taxiing and therefore causing 14000 people (of which 10000 happened to be LH customers) to spend a night in a hotel or the terminal) lead to some real pain in the a** for LH.

MUC handles those regultions a bit easier, but most of all we shall not forget that this step might be taken to reduce the movements in FRA in the evening by shifting it to MUC and opening just one important time frame for another FRA departure at just this time.

The MUC 3rd runway issue does not really play a major role for that topic i guess. The third runway in MUC would add additional capacities for the main banks (like morning, early afternoon and evening), but not really help in a way of late night departures (african and partly asian/US traffic). Going up from 90 to 120 movements does not play a role at this time.

Actually it all remains as it is: FRA keeping 99,9% of their operations and MUC being the Airbus-Hub plus one flight.
 
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Semaex
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:44 pm

Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 22):
Everybody's talking about the third runway. I thought Frankfurt would have four now. Which one is number three?
Quoting MUCramp (Reply 25):
You're right. FRA has four (at least one being only used for take-offs). Just to specity a bit more: two of them are as close to each other as they are practicially only one rwy and a half, from what I know. Maybe somebody can explain more precise.


Nothing really to explain. If my memory serves me right, by ICAO definition, if the runways are less than 760m apart, they cannot be considered as independent runways and therefore need to be treated different in respect to spacing the aircraft on approach.
What FRA has done is use the two now outer runways L/R (which are spaced far more than 760m), for landings only, while the one in the center (25C/07C) is used for takeoffs. Some restriction which belong to the category of go-around and missed approaches on the outer runways while using center for take-offs still apply, but all in all we can conclude that the situation now is much more fluent to handle than before, with two dedicated landing runways and two dedicated take-off runways (Center + 18).

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/chrisdude1987/Frankfurt-Main_Airport_Map_EN.png

Quoting MUCramp (Reply 25):

MUC has two rwys. There has been a city referendum just a few weeks ago rejecting a third runway which was planned because of a lack of capacity (during several hours of the day). This is why some people do consider it at least kind of interesting that LH moves flights - well, its only one flight actually - from FRA to MUC. The pr of the past month kind of suggested that there won't be any more attractive flights without rwy3.

Not actually a reply to your statement, but for those who are not familiar with MUC airport layout, and why the 3rd runway would be of such importance and the benefits it brings:
The existing parallel runway system allows absolutely independent landings and approaches, which gives the airport a rate of up to 90 (?) movements per hour, which in fact already poses problems today in peak times. The suggested and much debated third runway could add another 30 movements per hour, as it would also be completely independent.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Karte_vom_Flughafen_M%C3%BCnchen_%28inkl._geplanter_Erweiterung%29.png/1024px-Karte_vom_Flughafen_M%C3%BCnchen_%28inkl._geplanter_Erweiterung%29.png

props to google pix
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cmf
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:07 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
Poltics has to act now. They have to change the air traffic laws to make night operations possible at large hubs.

They did act. That is why we have the situation we have now.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 9):
As a matter of fact, one of the OP's links gives some numbers: since october, 120 take-offs rejected, 14000 pax affected, of which 10000 from LH. That's quite a few hotel nights to pay.

We have been told over and over that aviation's 2% share of global CO2 is so low it doesn't matter. The 120 take offs represent less than 0.05%. Also, is the 120 the total cancellations? How many cancellations happened in the same period last year?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
Sending back flights at 23h01 to the gate is not part of the initial agreement

The courts said differently.

Also, there is a poetic justice in that airlines are treated the way they treat passengers,

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
What is happening right now is not a good development for a world class hub in competition with CDG, AMS; not speaking of the Gulf hubs which have no restriction whatsoever..

Agree, but the region have spoken.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 13):
The neighbours should realize the when you live near an international airport you have to put up with the noise.

They do. They are not demanding the closure of the airport. Quite the opposite. They have approved a 40% increase in movements.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 13):
how old are the homes in the vicinity of the airport?

Most of the affected places have had people living there since long before the airport. It should work both ways, or....

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 19):
I think the nightban is overly restrictive, but I haven't got the least bit of sympathy for Fraport and Lufthansa. The nightban was part of the deal allowing the construction of fourth runway, and then they try to weasel out of the nightban after the opening of the runway.

  
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Kiwirob
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:18 am

Quoting Qazar (Reply 5):
This said, I believe that the limitations on this airport's growth, inability to add more runways, space, and now political influences through an unjustified night ban, have all contributed to my conclusion that Frankfurt's time may be up!...

Hasn't runway 4 been opened recently and terminal 3 is due to start construction next year?
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:46 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 31):
Hasn't runway 4 been opened recently and terminal 3 is due to start construction next year?

yes, that is so. Actually, the work on T3 has already been started.

The major problem is that all these investment are idle 25% of the day.
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LJ
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:50 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
What is happening right now is not a good development for a world class hub in competition with CDG, AMS; not speaking of the Gulf hubs which have no restriction whatsoever..

I doubt AMS belongs in your list as getting night slots at AMS is currently virtually impossible (and AMS consider night from 23:00 till 06:00). It's not a curfew, but if you don't already have them (or are lucky because another airline decided not to use the slots), you'll not get them. Moreover at AMS you've something called "early morning slot" which restricts the number of movements between 06:00 and 07:00.
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:34 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 33):
I doubt AMS belongs in your list as getting night slots at AMS is currently virtually impossible (and AMS consider

read the sentence with the semicolon please. ; not speaking of the Gulf hubs........ that does not mrean that CDG and AMS have the same unlimited nights ops as the Gulf hiubs have.

OK?

Concerning AMS, at least they have "Grandfather rights" which FRA does not. There would be no comlpaints if the grandfather rights with, say some 50 ops per night on average could have been mainatined.
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sweair
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:52 am

Is it mostly mega hubs that have curfews?
 
r2rho
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:11 am

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 19):
I think the nightban is overly restrictive, but I haven't got the least bit of sympathy for Fraport and Lufthansa. The nightban was part of the deal allowing the construction of fourth runway, and then they try to weasel out of the nightban after the opening of the runway.

It's a bit more complex than that, there were a number of contradicting agreements and false promises, all sprinkled with a good deal of politics. One of those was to reduce night ops to 17 in exchange for the 4th runway. Another (and the end result) has been to kill night ops altogether, and not allowing any curfew exceptions for delayed flights.
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:56 am

...and to make it more complicated, the Federal Government, this or a future one can, at any time, change the law (Luftverkehrsgesetz) and allow night flights, either limited or unlimited.

Topping that, the EU commission can do that as well, either for all airports in Europe or for certain, i.e. superhubs.

Airports are national infrastructure, needed to keep the economy going. it is like rail lines, which meanwhile are noisier than aviation, shutting these down for a quarter or three quarters of a day would grind down the economy.
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LOWS
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:23 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 37):
Topping that, the EU commission can do that as well, either for all airports in Europe or for certain, i.e. superhubs.

How can the EU have jurisdiction?
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:41 am

They have jurisdiction over almost everything in the EU.

The EU commission / parliament can instruct the national governments to adapt their laws to the EU laws.

Certainly when it comes to airports. in a single market FRA or any other airport has importance for all single market countries.

The curfew could be interpreted as a restriction of trade, which it in fact is.

Carriers could eventually appeal the ruling of the Leipzig Administrative Court at the Eiuropean High Court.
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LOWS
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:04 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 39):
The EU commission / parliament can instruct the national governments to adapt their laws to the EU laws.

I assumed it would be related, but the statute would have to be very carefully constructed. The possible (absurd) extension of such a statute would be that the Commission would order FRA to build more runways if slots are not available.
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH: FRA-CPT Moving To MUC-CPT Due To Nightban

Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:07 am

I doubt that they can do that. Not even the State of Hesse could order a city to build anything. Communes have a right of selfdetermination. They - meaning the councillors - have the right to vote on zoning and building projects.

There would be a long legal process tpo force an infrastructure project from the outside, if at all that would be possible.

.
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