WouterB
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KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:44 pm

PH-KCH flew its last flight on monday, from AMS to DEL and back to AMS.

Article (Dutch): http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nl-NL...KLM_begonnen_met_uitfasering_MD-11

Does anyone know where these MD-11's will end up?
 
na
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:47 pm

Maybe too old/too many cycles for cargo conversion in the light that some MD11Fs have been parked recently. Could be the first MD11 going to the scrappers.
 
kl911
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:00 pm

Quoting WouterB (Thread starter):
Does anyone know where these MD-11's will end up?

Iran?  
 
MEA-707
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:03 pm

Indeed PH-KCH and KCI (due wfu sept 2012) will be flown to the USA and scrapped. they are due for a D-check and with the cargo market in a slumb noone wants them anymore.
Usual suspects like UPS and FedEx stopped picking up old MD-11s and they are buying other types now, a few years ago they would have bought them but that ship has sailed.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
na
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:21 pm

I am a bit surprised as these are some of the latest built KLM frames from 1995.
 
FlyingHollander
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:26 pm

Is it known when the last MD-11 will retire? I HAVE to fly one before it's too late! I was hoping that I could wait until the summer of 2013 as I will have graduated by then.
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
 
WouterB
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:44 pm

According to the article, the last one will be phased out at the end of 2014.

I was lucky to fly on PH-KCI four years ago. I flew from GYE to AMS, so actually that were three flights at that time   (GYE-UIO, UIO-BON, BON-AMS).
 
Birdwatching
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:26 pm

Since KLM is an airline that recognizes aviation enthusiasts to a high degree, do you think we can expect them to do some sort of enthusiast's flights in the end?

Soren   
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
September11
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:37 pm

Call me little crazy - I find KLM MD-11s fascinating


Check out the KLM MD-11 "movie" photo album I created:
http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?album=7711

[Edited 2012-07-04 09:51:24]
Airliners.net of the Future
 
Ferminios
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:26 pm

Sad to see these birds go, they are great to fly on. Although I have been fortunate enough to be on these birds multipe times, I still think that I will schedule AMS - YUL - YYC - YUL- AMS for next summer.  
 
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Mortyman
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:16 pm

Dam, I flew "Anna Pavlova" back in 1997 to Quito. Sad to see her go ... 
 
mauriceb
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:44 pm

Very Very sad day for me personally. I have flown the KCH multiple times in my life, and one particular cockpit flight (AUA-AMS) 10 years ago, made me become what i am today. Sad to see my fav. aircraft leaving the fleet... I know its just a piece of metal, but for sure a great one.
 
Newark727
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:24 pm

KLM has the MD-11 to LAX on the summer schedule right now- when do they switch back to their regular equipment? I'd like to get another good look at one if I can.
 
sweair
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:28 pm

What will replace the MD11?
 
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nitepilot79
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:37 pm

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 7):
Since KLM is an airline that recognizes aviation enthusiasts to a high degree, do you think we can expect them to do some sort of enthusiast's flights in the end?

Hope so! Long live the MD-11!
 
cat3dual
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:41 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 13):
What will replace the MD11?

A330-300 and 777-300ER apparently.

Do KLM have any options outstanding for the A330 or 777?
 
na
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:41 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 13):
What will replace the MD11?

A mix of 777s and A330s. The fleet has grown quite a lot in recent years.

The demise of the last pax-MD11s makes me wonder when KLMs first 744 is going to be retired.
 
sweair
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:01 pm

The 25 789 that they have on order, are they for growth or replacements?
 
na
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:09 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 17):

The 25 789 that they have on order, are they for growth or replacements?

Growth as well as replacing older 744Ms and later 772s I would say. To replace the MD11s the 787s are too late.
 
GregsterYUL
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:17 pm

I love seeing them here at YUL but last summer the MD-11s were a nightmare for KLM as they went tech many times during peak season(2-3 times a week). At one point last summer there were 2 KLM MD-11s parked at Air Canada's hanger... This summer is so far so good
 
mauriceb
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 17):
The 25 789 that they have on order, are they for growth or replacements?

They are mainly for 747 replacement, but also for the A330's on a longer term.. the current 77W's and A330's on order are really a temporary solution untill the 787's start to arrive. Most of the Airbusses have short leasing terms on them (somewhat like 5 years) so KLM can be flexible with its fleet decisions the upcomming years.

They intended to replace the MD-11's with the 787's on a one-on-one base, but due to all the delays and the ricing fuell price+ a change of business plan, KLM decided to retire the MD's some 2 to 3 years earlier.

On the longer term the A350 will most likely replace the T7's, but i expect that will take atleast another 6/7 years before we will see the first one leaving the fleet.

Quoting na (Reply 18):
Growth as well as replacing older 744Ms and later 772s I would say. To replace the MD11s the 787s are too late.

I don't think we can expect a lot of growth the upcomming years.. AF-KL made some hugh losses, and is stil losing millions a day. KLM needs to reduce the yearly costs by 700 mil. and a part of that includes shrinking of the European fleet and to set up a new way of handling things. Also HV will play a bigger role in the AF-KL fleet, so if there is any growth, its most likely only at Transavia

 
 
bueb0g
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:42 pm

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 5):
Is it known when the last MD-11 will retire? I HAVE to fly one before it's too late! I was hoping that I could wait until the summer of 2013 as I will have graduated by then.

Agreed.

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 7):
do you think we can expect them to do some sort of enthusiast's flights in the end?

I severely hope so... I'll contact them on that very matter...
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
LAXintl
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:12 pm

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 12):
KLM has the MD-11 to LAX on the summer schedule right now- when do they switch back to their regular equipment? I'd like to get another good look at one if I can.

The MD-11 is the 2nd flight for the summer. KL still has their daily 744 at LAX.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
louA340
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:51 am

I was lucky enough to fly their MD-11 when they had them on the AMS - ACC flights. Such a great plane, sad they are all slowly going.
RyEng
 
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sturmovik
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:28 am

Another step in the inevitable march towards the total disappearance of interesting and beautiful old aircraft types..  
'What's it doing now?'
 
SK907
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:55 am

It was inevitable that the MD-11 had to leave the KLM fleet at some point. Luckily, I have been on nine of these lovely birds, KCA, KCB, KCC, KCD, KCE, KCF, KCG, KCH and KCK, all on the AMS-JRO-DAR-AMS route.
 
B747forever
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:09 am

It is sad to see them retiring the MD11. At least I have had the pleasure of flying on KCA.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 22):
KL still has their daily 744 at LAX

It alternates between the 744 and 74M.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
DrColenzo
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:36 am

Darn it,

Whilst I flew countless DC-10s during the 1980s, I've never been on an MD-11.

When are KLM planning on retiring the type completely?
 
bueb0g
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:10 am

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 27):

When are KLM planning on retiring the type completely?

By the end of 2014 - we still have time!
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
DrColenzo
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:17 am

Right then,

I has just, (involuntary like so many on A-Net) converted from BMI & Star Alliance to BA and OneWorld and I am therefore looking for a new SA member or even alliance to join. Maybe SkyTeam and Air France - KLM will be the way to go, they are doing status matching right now so it might be as idea.

Then I can fly my MD-11 before it is too late!
 
na
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:18 am

I´m in Northern Holland next month, maybe I´ll have to spend a few hours at Schiphol then.
 
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EPA001
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:19 am

Quoting September11 (Reply 8):
I find KLM MD-11s fascinating

Me too. I have always had a soft sport for the tri-jets, especially the L-1011.  .

Quoting sk907 (Reply 25):

It was inevitable that the MD-11 had to leave the KLM fleet at some point.

Of course. Still it gives me a bit of a sad feeling. But nowadays it is twins all the way everywhere (not counting the occasional B747 and A380).

[Edited 2012-07-05 02:20:02]
 
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mixalakhs
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:20 am

I am glad, as I never liked the MD-11's. I am flying to San Francisco twice a year and the past few years, I was avoiding KLM as KLM was and is using the MD-11's for the AMS-SFO-AMS route, except summer. After they retire all MD-11's, I will start flying with KLM again.
 
amsspot
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:45 am

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 7):
Since KLM is an airline that recognizes aviation enthusiasts to a high degree, do you think we can expect them to do some sort of enthusiast's flights in the end?

I was wondering if someone had asked this question on their Facebook wall yet and it turned out someone already had. KLM replied to this question with:

"The phasing out of the MD11 aircraft is going to take a few years. So when it is time to say goodbye to our last MD11, a few years from now, we will probably pay attention to this". (see: https://www.facebook.com/KLM/posts/391401954254141?notif_t=share_reply)

Looks promising.

Best regards,
Miles
 
DrColenzo
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:49 am

Quoting mixalakhs (Reply 32):

I am glad, as I never liked the MD-11's.

Why not?

I am not being facetious here, as I am the same with long distance travel on an A340 and prefer the 747-400. Indeed, I did a work trip to the US in April with Lufthansa (my last Star Alliance flight in a while, it seems) and went over to Boston on an A340-300 from Munich and came back a 747-400 going Chicago to Frankfurt.

Even though I was business both legs I found the A340 cramped and in comparison the 747 was much roomier (okay I admit I was in 9K by the exit) and felt more comfortable riding out the mid-April Atlantic storms.

Did you have a similar feeling towards the MD-11 that I have to the A340?
 
travelavnut
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:33 am

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 34):

Why not?

I don't like them either. They look absolutely awesome, don't get me wrong. But I really like good flying machines, that by design are a great and very safe aircraft, the MD-11 IMHO is neither (yes I know it is considered safe, but relatively speaking it's less safe than it's peers). The horizontal stabilizer having too little authority, the highest wingloading of any current widebody resulting in quite high approach speeds. I know the likes of Wilco737 and of course KLM operated them safely, but it's not secret she is forgiving than others.
Live From Amsterdam!
 
travelavnut
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:34 am

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 34):
Even though I was business both legs I found the A340 cramped and in comparison the 747 was much roomier (okay I admit I was in 9K by the exit)

So it had actually nothing to do with the aircraft type, but rather the position of your seat, correct?
Live From Amsterdam!
 
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RWA380
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:14 am

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 5):
Is it known when the last MD-11 will retire? I HAVE to fly one before it's too late! I was hoping that I could wait until the summer of 2013 as I will have graduated by then

I highly suggest to take any opportunity to fly the M11, I've flown DL's multiple times, TG's twice and KL's twice, all the flights were great to awesome, I enjoy the take off in the M11, next to the 777. Flown all cabins too, even Y was enjoyable.

Quoting sk907 (Reply 25):
all on the AMS-JRO-DAR-AMS route.

This is the route I took, and it was a great trip, the plane was an added bonus, longest stage length M11 flight I've done.
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
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mixalakhs
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:01 pm

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 34):

First of all, in my eyes, the MD-11 except of being a very ugly aircraft, it also looks very very old.
Only by looking those winds, compare with B777 or A330-340, you immediately have the feeling that MD-11 is a very old
aircraft. That engine on the tail, does not make things any better. It gives you the impression it will fly away from the aircraft.
I guess the reason I dislike the MD-11's is because I remember I was 12yo in the early 90's when I traveled to Los Angeles with Swissair and even though it was a brand new plane those days, it was making so many weird noises while on the ground ( we left from Geneva-Zurich-Los Angeles ) that made me scare.
Sorry to all the MD-11's lovers  
 
DrColenzo
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:45 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 36):
So it had actually nothing to do with the aircraft type, but rather the position of your seat, correct?

On that occasion, very much so!

However, I have never really liked the space in an A340/A330, just my thing. I always prefer flying the 777 or the 747, not a Boeing vs Airbus issue as I love flying on the A320 just I like the space of the Boeing widebodies, although this might change with the introduction of the A350.
 
na
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:52 pm

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 34):
Why not?

As a passenger I´m also not too fond of the MD-11. I once travelled F/C on a Thai MD11 and it was ways inferior to their 744. Also I wouldnt feel so safe on it as on a 744 or A340.
Its a great-looking aircraft though and I love it as it brings diversity to the airports and its demise is another big step down to twinjet boredom.
 
travelavnut
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:54 pm

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 39):
However, I have never really liked the space in an A340/A330, just my thing. I always prefer flying the 777 or the 747, not a Boeing vs Airbus issue as I love flying on the A320 just I like the space of the Boeing widebodies, although this might change with the introduction of the A350.

Ow I have the same, have an incredible soft spot for the 777. Although I think it's bit noisy it really gives a wide and solid feel.

Never been in the MD-11 though, and although it's not my favorite airliner, it's still a shame  
Live From Amsterdam!
 
cricket
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:16 pm

Pity, but as they withdraw the MD-11 what they replace them on the DEL route with - I have flown KCH DEL-AMS and KCF twice from AMS-DEL back in 2009
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
PHX787
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:57 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 2):
Iran?

I could see that!

Quoting na (Reply 1):
Maybe too old/too many cycles for cargo conversion in the light that some MD11Fs have been parked recently. Could be the first MD11 going to the scrappers.

None haven't been scrapped yet?
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
WouterB
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:00 pm

The flight from DEL to AMS which arrived in AMS this morning was flown with an A330-200. Yesterday it was one of the remaining MD11's (PH-KCE). The Dutch article states that A330's and 777's will replace the removed MD11's, so that makes sense.

[Edited 2012-07-05 07:05:57]
 
na
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:01 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 43):
None haven't been scrapped yet?

Not that I´m aware off. Unless something happened in recent weeks. The fact that so many were converted prevented pax-MD11 to go to the srappers earlier.
 
Concordski
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:21 pm

I need to find a way to justify flying our daily KLM MD-11 visitor flying ATL-AMS sometime soon before it's gone. Never flown one before.
 
DrColenzo
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:22 pm

Quoting na (Reply 45):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 43):
None haven't been scrapped yet?

Not that I´m aware off. Unless something happened in recent weeks. The fact that so many were converted prevented pax-MD11 to go to the srappers earlier.

Quite correct; I just checked the www.airfleets.net website and baring the 8 write-offs and 16 in storage, the rest are in active service. Not bad, I suppose but that is out of 200 airframes after 20 years in service, or 4% attrition and taking 16 as a proportion of the remaining 192 then that makes a 8% redundancy of the remaining aircraft.

But then using that criteria, the 777 has a 0.2% attrition rate with two write offs and the same percentage for the two currently storage airframes and the two early models scrapped by Varig and Air India. Even the 747 has a hull loss rate of 3.62% (cannot be bothered to calculate redundancy/scrapping for that one!).

Does any mainstream aircraft currently in use by an airline have a write off history as bad as the MD-11?
 
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lightsaber
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:46 pm

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 3):
Usual suspects like UPS and FedEx stopped picking up old MD-11s and they are buying other types now, a few years ago they would have bought them but that ship has sailed.

   Once FedEx bought the 777F, the 'obvious niche' (long haul) for the MD-11 now has a more efficient stable mate.

There isn't much hope for the retired MD-11s. Once we come out of the current 'cargo slump' we'll have the 787 and A350 in mass production. That will provide more under-belly cargo and free up older widebody twins for conversion. Its sad to see a type fade, but it is time.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
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Mortyman
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RE: KL Phased Out First MD-11

Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:30 pm

Could these old MD 11's be interesting for the Dutch airforce / armed forces, as trooptransport ?