N62NA
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Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:47 pm

I was checking out the excellent website http://www.departedflights.com and looking up operations at CLE and came across these rather "strange" uses of equipment:

UA #158 7:00am - 9:13am ORD-CLE 747
UA #576 4:00pm - 6:35pm MIA-CLE 747
UA #371 8:00am - 9:23am EWR-CLE D10
UA #71 9:40am - 10:22am PIT-CLE D10
UA #268 3:40pm - 4:17pm PIT-CLE D10
UA #580 1:50pm - 4:00pm TPA-CLE D10

And here's a NW flight thrown in as a bonus:

NW #3 9:10am - 10:30am IAD-CLE D10

* I say "strange" as compared to today.

[Edited 2012-07-08 09:47:40]
 
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Polot
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:50 pm

UA use to have somewhat of a hub in CLE. It drew it down mostly to build up IAD and CO swooped in. Short hops on widebody equipment like the flights you posted were pretty common back then, especially amongst UA and AA.
 
N62NA
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:58 pm

Quoting poLOT (Reply 1):
Short hops on widebody equipment like the flights you posted were pretty common back then, especially amongst UA and AA.

Oh, I know... the "golden age" of flying... replaced today with RJs. 
 
quiet1
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:20 pm

I thought that NW3 routing was: EWR-PHL-CLE-ORD-ANC-TYO ? Was IAD slotted in there, as well?

That inbound 747 ORD-CLE turned to CLE-ORD-HNL as UA953, if memory serves correctly.

At one point (1973?) threre was a 747 CLE-LAX and DC10 CLE-SFO. AA also had DC-10 from BUF or ROC to CLE which continued on westward to STL and PHX (?).

I had a TON of plane spotting photos from the early to mid 1970s at CLE, but in one of my moves many years ago, I threw them out!
 
PITrules
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:35 pm

Pre-deregulation traffic rights had a hand to play in all this as well. For example, United did not have rights to serve all the destinations they wanted to from ORD, so they served them from ORD via cities they did have the rights. This is why United had 747s and DC-10s flying ORD-CLE/PIT-MIA
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N766UA
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:36 pm

Quoting poLOT (Reply 1):

UA use to have somewhat of a hub in CLE.

UA had a LARGE hub at CLE given the time. Back in the '70s, the idea of the "hub" was still new, and it wasn't until after deregulation that we started to see the buildups which led to today's fortress hubs. UA's CLE operation was formidable for the day.

As for the equipment, I don't think it's bizarre at all. MIA, ORD, PIT, and CLE were all big UA cities in the point-to-point days of regulated flying. 747s and DC-10s were the norm back then. CLE used to RON 2 747's, several DC-10s, and even more DC-8s every night.
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Viscount724
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:36 pm

You also have to keep in mind that in those days long before deregulation UA had no route authority between ORD and Florida. They only way they could carry passengers to/from Florida (or ATL) was via CLE or PIT. Those routes were inherited from their merger with Capital Airlines in 1961. The only carriers with nonstop route authority Chicago-Florida then were DL/NW/EA.

I remember flying nonrev on UA YVR-TPA (and returning from FLL) sometime in the mid-1970s. Routing was YVR-SEA-ORD-CLE-TPA, and the same route home except starting in FLL. Connections at all points but made it without any problems, and all F class. I'm pretty sure the ORD-CLE and CLE-ORD flights were both DC-10s.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 2):
Oh, I know... the "golden age" of flying... replaced today with RJs.

Yeah, that was the "golden age" when you could fly DC10s from SEA-GEG (sometimes) or fly SFO-MCE on a 737.

However on the other hand, in that "golden age" you wouldn't dream of finding anything like SEA-PEK, SEA-MCO, BLI-OGG, SEA-LIH, SJC-KOA, SAN-OGG, SEA-KEF, SEA-CDG, SEA-SNA or MSP-CDG or any other of the many non-stop routes that didn't exist back then.
 
nomadic
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:45 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
Yeah, that was the "golden age"

On TWA I flew JFK-ORD and LAX-SFO on a 747. MCI-STL on an L-1011
 
skycub
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:49 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 5):
UA had a LARGE hub at CLE given the time.

True, in fact, here is a break-down of United's Cleveland hub from over the years:

http://www.departedflights.com/UACLEhub.html

United (the original United, pre-Continental merger) peaked at around 107 daily mainline flights a day in 1979. (It's amazing that, compared to today, there was ONLY "mainline" back then.)

Yeah, that was the "golden age" when you could fly DC10s from SEA-GEG (sometimes) or fly SFO-MCE on a 737.

I still think one of my FAVORITES, however, was the Northwest Orient DC-10 that operated Newark-Detroit-Chicago-Billings-Great Falls-Spokane-Seattle as late as 1979.

It's hard to imagine a wide-body flying into Billings, Great Falls OR Spokane today... let alone flying between those cities!
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BoeingGuy
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting skycub (Reply 9):
Yeah, that was the "golden age" when you could fly DC10s from SEA-GEG (sometimes) or fly SFO-MCE on a 737.

In the "golden age", I could not have flown non-stop from SEA-SJC or SEA-SNA to visit relatives. I would have had to do CO's SEA-PDX-OAK-SJC flight (I think that was the routing) or SEA-SFO-SNA on two different airlines, probably for prohibitive prices. Of course I could have flown to SFO or LAX and had someone drive 2 hours round trip to pick me up. Now it's easy and convenient to go where I want on AS. It's similar for other cities.

I don't dispute the days of 707s, DC-8s, interesting routings, no bag fees, inflight meals, less security hassles, and more traditional independent airlines (BF, TW, EA, PS, OC, RW, etc) was great. However, everything considered, I'll take the good new days and enjoy more non-stop cheaper flights to the places that I want to go. Could you have imagined SEA-AUS or SEA-FAT back then (both of which I've done recently for recreational purposes)?
 
tharanga
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 10):
I'll take the good new days and enjoy more non-stop cheaper flights to the places that I want to go.

me too. While it might be fun to think back on, taking those multi-hop trips is just a waste of time, assuming you're traveling for the sake of getting somewhere, and not for the sake of being on a plane.
 
jsnww81
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:01 pm

Quoting tharanga (Reply 11):
While it might be fun to think back on, taking those multi-hop trips is just a waste of time, assuming you're traveling for the sake of getting somewhere, and not for the sake of being on a plane.

I have an old OAG from the summer of 1973 and it's true that service - even at major cities - was much, much more limited than today. Cities like AUS (which was cited by another poster as a beneficiary of post-deregulation additions) literally had flights to just a few places - DAL, HOU, SAT and maybe one or two a day to MAF and LBB.

With regard to spending all day on a plane, all I hear from my parents and those older than me is that life moved more slowly back in the 1960s and 1970s (I wasn't around myself to experience it.) My parents always say that it seemed like some time around 1992 or 1993, someone stepped on an accelerator, and society hasn't looked back since. I'm sure "time was money" for business travelers back then, too, but connections and stopovers were just a fact of life in those days. Air traffic delays, gate holds and getting trapped on the tarmac during a connection weren't the problems they are today either - your biggest threat back in the "good old days" was probably a strike by one work group or another.
 
skycub
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:03 pm

fliler filler filler

[Edited 2012-07-08 14:04:39]
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N766UA
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting skycub (Reply 9):
United (the original United, pre-Continental merger) peaked at around 107 daily mainline flights a day in 1979.

And 107 mainline flights a day was a pretty big deal in the '70s. Hubs just didn't exist in the same form they do now back then. 107 a day made UA at CLE far busier than Pan Am or TWA at JFK, and on par with AA at DFW. Only a few hubs (think Eastern at ATL) were significantly larger.
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airzim
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):

However nobody remembers flying with smokers. Sky high fares and terrible frequency for business travelers.

Sorry the golden age is rose colored.
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:43 pm

There was a different mentality of the traveling public in those days. The idea of a stop enroute was no big deal because the CAB had dictated those stop on many routes years before. Airlines were give some latitiude of frequency in some cases. The NW example of service thru Montana..Perhaps some flight on some days served Butte, or wherever..the point is that in those days folks were more flexible about schedules and routes.

Also bear in mind that in the 50's some of that service may have only been 2 or 3 times per day, once or twice on Saturday and Sunday. IN those earlier days airlines took a que from the railroads..not EVERY train ran every day. And for darn sure you made a stop somewhere enroute unless is was The Braodway Limited on the PRR, or the 20th Century over on the NYC competing head to head on the CHI-NYC route. Those trains made very limited stops, example, AS I RECALL...
The Broadway From CHI stopped in Fort Wayne, Lima,O, Canton, O, Pittsburgh, Harrisburgh, Philly, Newark and Penn Sta...you get the idea.

SO the idea of a BUF-CLE-LAX , or CLE-ORD-SAN was not that unusual to the traveller of tho 1960's and most of the 70's.
 
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:59 pm

Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 16):
The NW example of service thru Montana..Perhaps some flight on some days served Butte, or wherever..the point is that in those days folks were more flexible about schedules and routes.

I flew MSO-GTF-BIL-BIS-MSP (on a 727) followed by MSP-ORD (on a 747) on NW more than once. The first flight started in SEA and stopped at GEG before continuing on through Montana and North Dakota.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:08 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 15):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):

However nobody remembers flying with smokers. Sky high fares and terrible frequency for business travelers.

Sorry the golden age is rose colored.

That was kind of my point. It's better now in many ways. I forgot about the smoking part too.

Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 16):
The Broadway From CHI stopped in Fort Wayne, Lima,O, Canton, O, Pittsburgh, Harrisburgh, Philly, Newark and Penn Sta...you get the idea.

The Broadway Limited didn't go through Lima or Canton. The New York Central and Nickel Plate mainlines did, but not the Pennsylvania Railroad. The Broadway stopped at:

Chicago Union, Englewood, Fort Wayne, Crestline, Pittsburgh, Altoona, Harrisburg, Paoli, Philadelphia, Newark and arrived at the dearly departed Penn Station New York.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:48 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 18):
The Broadway Limited didn't go through Lima or Canton. The New York Central and Nickel Plate mainlines did, but not the Pennsylvania Railroad. The Broadway stopped at:

Look back at your timetables from the 70's. Amtrak DID go through Crestline, Lima, and Canton , OH when train #40 was "The Broadway Limited".

I was an agent at CUS with Amtrak between 1972-74. Sometime in the later 70's Amtrak rerounted the NYC train to what was known as NYC Railroads "Water Level Route" and Lima, OH was no longer used.

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19730429&item=0033

Amtrak in the early days tried to run itself like an airline. Their tickets even looked like airline ticket stock and Amtrak brought a primitive computer reservation system(ADR & ARTS-III) to the railroads who never had that before. But in the early days there were too many "old timers" left over from "the good ole' days or passenger rail traffic" who didn't believe it would ever work out.
A lot of them intentionally tried to sabotage the "new way of doing things". It took years for them all to retire.

BTW, just weeks before Lima, OH closed the agent there won the lottery and no longer had to work!


Edit: forgotten link

[Edited 2012-07-08 16:50:09]
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:02 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 18):
The Broadway Limited didn't go through Lima or Canton. The New York Central and Nickel Plate mainlines did, but not the Pennsylvania Railroad. The Broadway stopped at:

With all due respect sir.. I Grew up as a kid In Lima ..The Broadway Did go thru Lima..you are correct that it did not stop in its' hey day. IT did stop for 20+ years under AMTRAK. ..That mainline most certainly goes thru Canton, OH on its route to Pittsburgh. Please recheck the map. It was a duel track mainline in those days from Pittsburgh all teh way to Chicago. 4 track main in many spots east of Pittsburgh.

The 5 lines that went thru Lima were the PRR, The EL from Chicago, Huntington , IN, on to Marion, OH and east. The B & O from Detroit to Cincinnati, The NKP from Cleveland, Bellvue,OH on west to Muncie, Frankfort,IN and eventually St. Louis. The final waas the DT& I (controlled by Ford) and as its' intitals indicate, Detroit, Toledo and down to Ironton, OH

The NYC route you are thinking of runs thru South Bend, Toledo, Cleveland, Buffalo and on east to Albany & NYC. The other NKP mainline years ago was Buffalo, Cleveland, Fort Wayne, Chicago.

While techincal mistake on my part, the premise of my example in relation to the multi-stop flights from CLE and other examples listed by the OP and others remains the same. The public in the 60's and 70's in many parts of America were used to multi-stop transportation services. Thus when the CAB mandated multi stop routes it was no big deal.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:27 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 19):
Look back at your timetables from the 70's. Amtrak DID go through Crestline, Lima, and Canton , OH when train #40 was "The Broadway Limited".
Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 20):
With all due respect sir.. I Grew up as a kid In Lima ..The Broadway Did go thru Lima.

Okay, you guys all got me. I mistakenly thinking of Erie PA, which was served by a PRR branch line, and the NYC and NKP mainlines as I was thinking. I guess I got two historical locomotive manufacturing cities mixed up - Erie and Lima. I should have known where Lima was, considering that I recently read the book on the Lima Locomotive Works.

I stand corrected.
 
N62NA
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:19 am

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 12):
Air traffic delays, gate holds and getting trapped on the tarmac during a connection weren't the problems they are today either - your biggest threat back in the "good old days" was probably a strike by one work group or another.

Yep.

And schedules weren't padded to the point of ridiculousness like they are today.
 
caleb1
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:37 am

Say what you will, but I will still take the flying experience of the 60s and 70s any day over the present day travel experience. I liked the fact the flying was still a bit of a novelty and how people considered it a special event. Flights were catered with great food and snacks and passengers were more likely to be on their best behaviour. I miss those days immensely! Pilots were considered sky gods and very well respected. Flight attendants were more like celebrities in that they really represented the airline well and definitely looked and acted the part of an airline professional. I know that today, profits rule and everything is reduced to money. I also know that most people who fly today have no idea what I am talking about in my brief description above. Call me a dinosaur, but flying isn't what it used to be...unfortunately, in my opinion.
 
cruiseshipcrew
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:55 am

Does anyone have any photos of the original United CLE hub? I can't find any that shows a hub picture. Thanks
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PanHAM
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:47 am

Between the mid 70s and late 80s I have collected numerous flights on domstic US widebody services. Not only cross continen like SFO-STL-PHL in a TW L10 but short haul as well.

I used to do business in Canada twice a year with usually 2 weeks at YYZ, on weekends I flew YYZ-BUF to visit friends and return the same day/evening, that was an EA L10.

Florida via ATL with DL almost always a L10 to PBI , sometimes DC8s. DTW-BOS, with NW 747 (could have been to JFK however, would have to look that up.. MSP-SEA, NW 747 and CLE-SDF-LIT-DFW, AA 727.

All just by memory, I could come up with more examples . The golden age of flying, indeed.
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RWA380
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:06 am

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 3):
I had a TON of plane spotting photos from the early to mid 1970s at CLE, but in one of my moves many years ago, I threw them out

I have a postcard from 1963 of Cleveland airport with a United DC-8 in the background.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 5):
and even more DC-8s every night.

Wasn't the DC-8 a big part of UA's CLE flying?

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
However on the other hand, in that "golden age" you wouldn't dream of finding anything like SEA-PEK, SEA-MCO, BLI-OGG, SEA-LIH, SJC-KOA, SAN-OGG, SEA-KEF, SEA-CDG, SEA-SNA or MSP-CDG or any other of the many non-stop routes that didn't exist back then

Indeed these routes didn't exist 30 years ago, I did fly PDX-OGG-PDX n/s in Aug 1980, about as odd as it got then.

Quoting skycub (Reply 9):
I still think one of my FAVORITES, however, was the Northwest Orient DC-10 that operated Newark-Detroit-Chicago-Billings-Great Falls-Spokane-Seattle as late as 1979.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
MSP-SEA, NW 747

The NW fleet flew the NW, Even PDX-SEA was scheduled 747's, DC-10's, 727's, 720's 30-40 years ago
Next Flights: PDX-HNL-OGG-LIH-PDX On AS, WP & HA
 
quiet1
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:10 am

Quoting skycub (Reply 9):
United (the original United, pre-Continental merger) peaked at around 107 daily mainline flights a day in 1979.

And, then, in one feel swoop (a single schedule change), that number plummeted to less than 30 daily flights.

UA had a slew of one-stop 737 flights CLE-xxx-ORD, where xxx was places like SBN, FWA, GRR, LAN, MBS, and TOL. They all disappeared in that schedule change.
 
chrisjake
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:01 pm

Quoting cruiseshipcrew (Reply 24):
Does anyone have any photos of the original United CLE hub?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_jacobs_photography/6597518085/
 
ckfred
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:58 pm

It was common, even after deregulation, for NW to run 747s and DC-10s on MSP-ORD, and I think they flew DC-10s on DTW-ORD. By the end of the 1980s, I think the largest plane on either route was a 757.

I remember in the 1970s that AA had a DC-10 flying BUF-ORD-PHX. I even remember seeing a DC-10 pushed back at ORD, departing for YUL. This was 1993.
 
jetskipper
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:11 pm

Another strange flight that has been discussed on the forums is the Air Canada B-747 that ran from CLE-YYZ-LHR. Fast forward to today when CLE is served by Dash-8s.
 
chrisjake
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting jetskipper (Reply 30):
Another strange flight that has been discussed on the forums is the Air Canada B-747 that ran from CLE-YYZ-LHR

That was actually a seasonal "scheduled charter" that ran LHR-CLE-DTW-LHR. That route was active for several summers, but served by different carriers at different times. I remember both Delta and Pan Am A310's flying that route after Air Canada stopped.......or was not re-booked.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:26 pm

Quoting skycub (Reply 9):
I still think one of my FAVORITES, however, was the Northwest Orient DC-10 that operated Newark-Detroit-Chicago-Billings-Great Falls-Spokane-Seattle as late as 1979.

Are you sure this routing went from DTW to ORD? I am not sure NW had authority before deregulation to serve DTW to ORD.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
skycub
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:40 pm

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 32):
Are you sure this routing went from DTW to ORD? I am not sure NW had authority before deregulation to serve DTW to ORD.

As I said, I was referring to 1979, which would have been in the early post-deregulation era.

However, I think NW must have had DTW-ORD authorization even before reregulation... From April 1974:

http://www.departedflights.com/ORD74p3.html

Six daily DTW-ORD flights. 727, 747 and DC10 equipment.
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luv2fly
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:45 pm

Quoting skycub (Reply 33):
Six daily DTW-ORD flights. 727, 747 and DC10 equipment.

Never one to shy away when I wrong. I always thought that market was just AA and UA before deregulation .
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
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exFWAOONW
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:52 pm

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 27):
UA had a slew of one-stop 737 flights CLE-xxx-ORD, where xxx was places like SBN, FWA, GRR, LAN, MBS, and TOL. They all disappeared in that schedule change.

Bad days for UA. Which schedule change are you thinking of? I don't remember through flights. I only remember spoke flights from the hubs of ORD and CLE.

One schedule change, FWA went from 5 flights a day to ORD using 737/727 and 3 CLE 737 flights a day to 2 FWADEN. It wasn't long after that my day had to transfer to ORD to keep his job w/ UA.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:09 pm

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 35):
Bad days for UA. Which schedule change are you thinking of? I don't remember through flights. I only remember spoke flights from the hubs of ORD and CLE.

At various times UA had thru flights from FWA to various cites..many times it was a FWA-CLE- LGA/ DCA or wherever. I distinctly rememeber UA 269 the early AM departure to CLE--then it went on to ATL and JAX at times. AT other times that 72s went FWA-CLE-MIA as I recall , or maybe TPA. ( I flew 269 a few times to ATL)

The CLE hub basicly funneled those flights from SBN, FWA, TOL, GRR, MBS, FNT, LAN thru CLE and on to mainly east coast destinations with 737's. The 72S were generally scheduled on the longer legs out of CLE to ATL and points in FLA.

As mentioned at various times DC8, D8S, DC10 & the occasional 747 were scheduled on those legs as well.

Just trying to add to the perspective here...have a great day!
 
N62NA
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:20 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 29):

I remember in the 1970s that AA had a DC-10 flying BUF-ORD-PHX. I

And SYR also!
 
skycub
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 27):

UA had a slew of one-stop 737 flights CLE-xxx-ORD, where xxx was places like SBN, FWA, GRR, LAN, MBS, and TOL. They all disappeared in that schedule change.
Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 35):
Bad days for UA. Which schedule change are you thinking of? I don't remember through flights. I only remember spoke flights from the hubs of ORD and CLE.
Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 36):

At various times UA had thru flights from FWA to various cites..many times it was a FWA-CLE- LGA/ DCA or wherever. I distinctly rememeber UA 269 the early AM departure to CLE--then it went on to ATL and JAX at times. AT other times that 72s went FWA-CLE-MIA as I recall , or maybe TPA. ( I flew 269 a few times to ATL)

Looking at the November 1979 OAG, I see examples of BOTH types of flight routings mentioned above.

For example:

UA 233 Washington National-Cleveland-Grand Rapids-Chicago

UA 288 Chicago-Lansing-Cleveland-Philadelphia

UA 289 Cleveland-Flint-Chicago-Boise

UA 326 Chicago-Grand Rapids-Cleveland-LaGuardia

UA 334 Orlando-Cleveland-Saginaw-Chicago

UA 335 Chicago-Fort Wayne-Cleveland-Tampa

UA 357 Washington National-Cleveland-Toledo-Chicago

UA 376 Chicago-South Bend-Cleveland-Norfolk

UA 452 Cedar Rapids-Chicago-Fort Wayne-Cleveland-Newark

UA 735 LaGuardia-Cleveland-Toledo-Chicago-Moline

UA 945 Boston-Cleveland-Toledo-Chicago-Oakland

UA 923 Norfolk-Cleveland-Lansing-Chicago-Columbus

One flight routing I found interesting (though somewhat off topic was):

UA 559... A Boeing 727-200

Cleveland-Youngstown (62 miles)
Youngstown-Akron/Canton (47 miles)
Akron-Tampa

So many odd things (in my opinion) on that route!

First... a flight from Cleveland to Tampa via Youngstown and Akron.

A 727-200 between Cleveland and Youngstown and Youngstown and Akron/Canton.

Such a large aircraft flying into Youngstown on a regular basis (Yes, I know YNG has Allegiant today... but still!)

Nonstops from Akron to Tampa on United....

Amazing how times have changed!
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exFWAOONW
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:12 pm

Different mind-set. A flight didn't always have to pay for itself on a single take-off/landing pair. Mayble CLE couldn't fill a TPA flight in that time slot, so drop in and pick up a few more pax in CAK and YNG. Landing fees were less of a concern.

More likely explaination is the CAB limited who could fly between cities. Maybe UA had maxed out their CLE-TPA authorization, so add in the intermediate stops and it is no longer a CLE-TPA flight (and it gets approved) even if the majority onboard are CLE-TPA pax.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
skycub
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 29):
I remember in the 1970s that AA had a DC-10 flying BUF-ORD-PHX. I even remember seeing a DC-10 pushed back at ORD, departing for YUL. This was 1993.

If I recall correctly, didn't the incident involving an American Airlines DC-10 and its cargo door failure and decompression (what some have called a precursor to the horrific Turkish Airlines DC-10 cash) involve an American DC-10 going to/from Buffalo?

Ahh... yes. Here we are:

American Airlines flight 96, a DC-10 on the Los Angeles-Detroit-Buffalo-LaGuardia run:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_96
My opinions are my own. They are not representative of my employer, my union or my co-workers. They are all mine.
 
milesrich
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 3):

I thought that NW3 routing was: EWR-PHL-CLE-ORD-ANC-TYO ? Was IAD slotted in there, as well?

IAD was hardly slotted back in the 1970's. Until United started the hub there, the Airport Authority was practically begging airlines to schedule flights into there.

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 3):
That inbound 747 ORD-CLE turned to CLE-ORD-HNL as UA953, if memory serves correctly.


This is correct, and I took that flight on both segments quite a few times.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 4):
Pre-deregulation traffic rights had a hand to play in all this as well. For example, United did not have rights to serve all the destinations they wanted to from ORD, so they served them from ORD via cities they did have the rights. This is why United had 747s and DC-10s flying ORD-CLE/PIT-MIA



CLE and PIT were the only two major cities in the north that UA could serve from Florida. Those were routes inherited from Capital. In fact before the merger was finalized, Capital wetleased B-720-022's for the routes. But United never pushed any service from ORD to MIA via CLE or PIT and didn't operate any through flights, nor did they publish a through fare in their timetables. I don't think they could carry through passengers unless the passenger purchased two separate tickets. MIA, TPA, PBI, JAX, and ATL were not on UA's Route 1, the mainline from CHI to CLE. They could carry connecting traffic to MSP, MKE, and DTW as well as other Michigan cities as they were on the routing.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
Yeah, that was the "golden age" when you could fly DC10s from SEA-GEG (sometimes) or fly SFO-MCE on a 737. The flight operated LAX-VIS-MCE-MOD-SCK-SFO and the same routing in the other direction. UA's only service to Merced.
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 10):
I don't dispute the days of 707s, DC-8s, interesting routings, no bag fees, inflight meals, less security hassles, and more traditional independent airlines (BF, TW, EA, PS, OC, RW, etc) was great. However, everything considered,

I assume you mean BN, (Braniff).

Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 16):
The Broadway From CHI stopped in Fort Wayne, Lima,O, Canton, O, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, Philly, Newark and Penn Sta...you get the idea. The Broadway Limited was just a name Amtrak adopted. And when Amtrak took over on 5-1-71, the Broadway's chief rival, the 20th Century was long gone. Westbound as late as 1958,. the Broadway Limited only boarded passengers at Penn Station, Newark, North Philadelphia (the train did not serve 30th St. Station), Paoli, Harrisburg, and Altoona if the passengers were traveling to points west of Pittsburgh. It only stopped at Crestline, Ft. Wayne, and Englewood to discharge passengers, and the train carried no chair cars (coaches). ,
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 18):
The Broadway Limited didn't go through Lima or Canton. The New York Central and Nickel Plate mainlines did, but not the Pennsylvania Railroad. The Broadway stopped at:

Chicago Union, Englewood, Fort Wayne, Crestline, Pittsburgh, Altoona, Harrisburg, Paoli, Philadelphia, Newark and arrived at the dearly departed Penn Station New York.
Quoting type-rated (Reply 19):
Look back at your timetables from the 70's. Amtrak DID go through Crestline, Lima, and Canton , OH when train #40 was "The Broadway Limited".

I don't think Boeing Guy was referring to the Amtrak "Broadway".

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 32):
Quoting skycub (Reply 9):
I still think one of my FAVORITES, however, was the Northwest Orient DC-10 that operated Newark-Detroit-Chicago-Billings-Great Falls-Spokane-Seattle as late as 1979.

Are you sure this routing went from DTW to ORD? I am not sure NW had authority before deregulation to serve DTW to ORD.

Northwest had ORD-DTW unrestricted authority with turnarounds allowed at both cities.
Quoting skycub (Reply 38):
UA 559... A Boeing 727-200

Cleveland-Youngstown (62 miles)
Youngstown-Akron/Canton (47 miles)
Akron-Tampa

United paired CAK and YNG for years on flights between NYC and CHI. But they could not carry any local traffic between CAK and CLE.

Northwest flew B-377's between SEA and GEG in the 50's.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:21 pm

Quoting milesrich (Reply 41):
United paired CAK and YNG for years on flights between NYC and CHI. But they could not carry any local traffic between CAK and CLE.

In pre-deregulation days there were a lot of NO LOCAL TRAFFIC tag-ons. UA had a few interesting ones - SBA-ONT and MCI-DEN IIRC. It wasn't just the obvious ones like international carriers or PA doing domestic tag-ons or mainland carriers not having traffic rights on HNL-ITO.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 41):
I don't think Boeing Guy was referring to the Amtrak "Broadway".

Correct, I meant the traditional Pennsylvania Railroad tuscan red Broadway. However, those guys were still right. I was mixing up Erie and Lima in my reply.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 41):
I assume you mean BN, (Braniff).

Correct. However, I thought it went by BF in the old OAGs. BF was later Markair IIRC.
 
milesrich
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:50 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 42):
n pre-deregulation days there were a lot of NO LOCAL TRAFFIC tag-ons. UA had a few interesting ones - SBA-ONT and MCI-DEN IIRC. It wasn't just the obvious ones like international carriers or PA doing domestic tag-ons or mainland carriers not having traffic rights on HNL-ITO.

United could not pair SBA with certain cities on the Valley run. So they operated SBA on flights from LAX and to SFO via MRY. The restriction on MKC/MCI was that they couldn't carry local traffic between Kansas City and Denver or Chicago but they could carry connecting passengers as long as the final destination was a city served by United. So if a Denver passenger was traveling to Memphis, and they flew UA DEN-MKC, and then DL MKC-MEM, after the Capital merger, that was permitted, since UA served MEM from AVL, HSV, CHA etc., but if that same passenger was connecting in MEM to MGM, then UA couldn't carry them between DEN and MKC/MCI. I think the same restriction applied to CAK-CLE, but it may have been a total prohibition on CAK boarding passengers deplaning in CLE. The Kansas City restriction was removed in about 1978 when MCI was added to UA's regular route 1. Just as deregulation began, UA scheduled two flights a day from MLI to MCI and then on to the west coast.
 
FlyPeoria
Posts: 426
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:17 am

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 35):
Quoting quiet1 (Reply 27):UA had a slew of one-stop 737 flights CLE-xxx-ORD, where xxx was places like SBN, FWA, GRR, LAN, MBS, and TOL. They all disappeared in that schedule change.Bad days for UA. Which schedule change are you thinking of? I don't remember through flights. I only remember spoke flights from the hubs of ORD and CLE.One schedule change, FWA went from 5 flights a day to ORD using 737/727 and 3 CLE 737 flights a day to 2 FWADEN. It wasn't long after that my day had to transfer to ORD to keep his job w/ UA.

UA did a massive schedule change on April 27, 1980. That's when a lot of the spokes to those IN and OH points out of both CLE and ORD were dumped.
 
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jetpixx
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:15 am

My first flight in Nov. 1980 was a UA 727 from CLE-FLL...I remember they used to give kids this cool pencil box with playing cards, toys, plastic wings, etc.

Good memories. Hopefully UA doesn't leave CLE twice in a lifetime.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:29 am

In the April 27, 1969 timetable, UA had 76 daily departures from CLE (minor weekend differences):

DC-8: 3
720: 6
722: 11
721: 18
732: 24
Caravelle: 14
 
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exFWAOONW
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RE: Bizarre UA CLE Flights - April 1974

Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:37 pm

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 44):
UA did a massive schedule change on April 27, 1980. That's when a lot of the spokes to those IN and OH points out of both CLE and ORD were dumped.

Not sure if that is the date I was thinking of. My dad had to xfer out of FWA before then.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?

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