LAXintl
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Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:18 pm

Well looks like the Greek government managed to find homes for the 4 former Olympic Airways A340's which belonged to them following the privatization of the airline in 2009.

Miami based Apollo Aviation Group was the winning bidder at $40.4mil and confirmed by the new finance minister.

The money gained from the sale will be used to pay down public debt.

Story:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/greece...ll-four-airbus-jets-161804674.html


I wonder if Apollo will try to remarket these aircraft, or if they will be parted out due to very poor state of the 2nd hand market in A340s.
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TK787
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:40 pm

Such a shame,
They should have sold them earlier, how long have they been sitting idle?
 
Spacepope
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:44 pm

From the previous posts on these aircraft, I'd be surprised if they ever carry passengers again.
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PHX787
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:05 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Miami based Apollo Aviation Group was the winning bidder at $40.4mil and confirmed by the new finance minister.
Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
I wonder if Apollo will try to remarket these aircraft, or if they will be parted out due to very poor state of the 2nd hand market in A340s.

Will they have an American registration, and will they be the first 340s to carry an N number?

I hope someone buys them   The 340 is my favorite bird.


Maybe US would take them  
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PlymSpotter
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:13 pm

$10 million a piece sounds like scrap/parts value. Shame to see them broken up if this is correct.


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Polot
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:19 pm

Apollo primarily scraps aircraft to sell the parts. I doubt they are interested in trying to lease them out, especially since the maintenance paperwork for these planes are supposedly incomplete.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:20 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 4):
$10 million a piece sounds like scrap/parts value. Shame to see them broken up if this is correct.

$10 million is almost one-third of what a 1999 HGW model should be worth, so it does sound like these planes could require significant refurbishment to bring them back to airworthiness and they were therefore purchased for parts.
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:38 pm

The aircraft have been derelict for so long they are only fit for scrap now.
 
SEPilot
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting poLOT (Reply 5):
Apollo primarily scraps aircraft to sell the parts. I doubt they are interested in trying to lease them out, especially since the maintenance paperwork for these planes are supposedly incomplete.

If the paperwork is incomplete the planes cannot fly again, period. And if they have sat idle since 2009 without proper preservation they are likely unairworthy without major maintenance as well
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LH526
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:55 pm

I don't get it: Why didn't anyone within the greek government or anyone responsible for the planes manage to sell them or at least preserve them in a good state? How many millions of dollars that could help towards greeks depth problem are now wasted due to the negligence of some greek official?
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SEPilot
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:00 pm

Quoting lh526 (Reply 9):
How many millions of dollars that could help towards greeks depth problem are now wasted due to the negligence of some greek official?

It's still a drop in the bucket in terms of the overall Greek debt, and doesn't begin to address the real problem, which is that the government is spending a lot more than they take in. If they could have sold the planes for enough to wipe out the debt completely it would only postpone the problem, not solve it. But as to why, I suspect that whoever was put in charge of these planes was a bureaucrat with no aviation knowledge, and didn't have a clue (or care) what was necessary to preserve planes in flyable condition. Of course it Olympic had lost or misplaced the necessary paperwork already the whole question is moot-the damage was already done.

[Edited 2012-07-08 13:01:57]
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Polot
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:03 pm

Quoting lh526 (Reply 9):
I don't get it: Why didn't anyone within the greek government or anyone responsible for the planes manage to sell them or at least preserve them in a good state? How many millions of dollars that could help towards greeks depth problem are now wasted due to the negligence of some greek official?

They have been trying to sell them for 3 years, the Greek government can't force anyone to take them. I have a feeling that when Olympic Airlines was shutting down no one was expecting the planes to sit around for this long so proper preparations for long term storage were not made.
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:24 pm

Quoting lh526 (Reply 9):
I don't get it: Why didn't anyone within the greek government or anyone responsible for the planes manage to sell them or at least preserve them in a good state? How many millions of dollars that could help towards greeks depth problem are now wasted due to the negligence of some greek official?

Well the remarketing effort was probably not strong enough. If these were Lufthansa aircraft they would have been sold years ago.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:49 pm

OA themselves were trying to remarket the aircraft in their later years. For a while even OA had two grounded awaiting sale with only two remaining in service. I know THY looked at leasing two of them at the time, but the difficulty working through the required Greek bureaucracy was more than TK was willing to deal with when you had commercial leasing firms more easy to deal with.

Regarding Apollo they do sometimes remarket aircraft - they have 2 Air India A310s and an Air France and Corsair 744s available on the market now, but yes I do have doubts about the future of trying to get these aircraft in hands of other airlines considering the number of A340s sitting around these days.
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enilria
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:52 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 4):
$10 million a piece sounds like scrap/parts value. Shame to see them broken up if this is correct.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
$10 million is almost one-third of what a 1999 HGW model should be worth
Quoting lh526 (Reply 9):
I don't get it: Why didn't anyone within the greek government or anyone responsible for the planes manage to sell them or at least preserve them in a good state? How many millions of dollars that could help towards greeks depth problem are now wasted due to the negligence of some greek official?

I was shocked by that price. I guess these are the types of decisions that explain why the Greek government is broke.
 
brilondon
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:44 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 14):

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 4):
$10 million a piece sounds like scrap/parts value. Shame to see them broken up if this is correct.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
$10 million is almost one-third of what a 1999 HGW model should be worth
Quoting lh526 (Reply 9):
I don't get it: Why didn't anyone within the greek government or anyone responsible for the planes manage to sell them or at least preserve them in a good state? How many millions of dollars that could help towards greeks depth problem are now wasted due to the negligence of some greek official?

I was shocked by that price. I guess these are the types of decisions that explain why the Greek government is broke.

The government probably did not have the money to keep the aircraft in good working condition. I am surprised at the amount of money they did get for them. Are they going to be flown again or are they just going out to be scrapped
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jfk777
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:00 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
Regarding Apollo they do sometimes remarket aircraft - they have 2 Air India A310s and an Air France and Corsair 744s available on the market now, but yes I do have doubts about the future of trying to get these aircraft in hands of other airlines considering the number of A340s sitting around these days.

There are airlines needing used 340 like that airline in Argentina. AR should buy every A340 in sight it can get a hold of.
 
Navion
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:04 pm

Or maybe these 4 A343's could be good initial candidates for the A340 Cargo conversion program recently proposed. Since that process often requires such extensive work you could fit in a D check, do the conversion and presto, efficient long haul lift at a reasonable price.
 
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TK787
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:12 pm

Will they be scrapped where they are, if that is their end?

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WouterB
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:49 pm

About SX-DFA Airfleets.net states: "Lsd From Apollo Aviation as N235KS" (although it's not really clear when this was updated).

Is this correct? Did SX-DFA already belong to Apollo? I can't really find any more information about that.
 
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:56 am

It's too bad about these planes. They were my favourite plane at YYZ when they used to do the ATH-YUL-YYZ-YUL-ATH. Olympic 423/424. Parts wise, there are many planes that can use A340 parts (even non-A340s). I think 10 million is a good price for an older high time/non-airworthy 340-300.
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CX Flyboy
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:12 am

Are these the same A340s that got Hellenic Imperial colours/titles? If so, one of them is now in Singapore.
 
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Polot
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:42 am

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 21):
Are these the same A340s that got Hellenic Imperial colours/titles? If so, one of them is now in Singapore.

No, Hellenic Imperial is taking ex Gulf Air A340s.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:20 am

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 2):

From the previous posts on these aircraft, I'd be surprised if they ever carry passengers again.

I would be shocked if they ever fly more than the ferry flight to the scrapper.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 4):
$10 million a piece sounds like scrap/parts value.

Ghad... the engines + nacelles are worth that! Then again, what is the status of their pedigree.

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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:45 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 8):
And if they have sat idle since 2009 without proper preservation they are likely unairworthy without major maintenance as well
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 23):
I would be shocked if they ever fly more than the ferry flight to the scrapper.

I'll be shocked if these birds return to the skies...

Just have a look as to what can happen when an aircraft is returned to the air after being in long term storage "Russian style"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1-Z2dO14ApE

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Burkhard
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:57 am

Fotr sure they will be used as parts. Only question for me is, if they, with missing papaerwork, can fly out to Miami at all, or if they will be taken into parts locally. At least that would create a few jobs in Athens, which would be a good drop.
 
TomFoolery
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:25 am

I think the main issue is the missing records. Without documented evidence that proper maintenance has been carried out with approved materials and IAW approved processes, there is little value. All maintenance and repairs which do not have records would need to be repeated, all materials used would need to be replaced (unless certifications could be found).

For example, if a welded repair was made, the quality of the welding itself can be inspected and re certified, but if there is no traceability to the welding rods, or whatever material was used to make the welded joint, there is no simple way of determining if the material used came from an approved source, and all conditions were met during the process to ensure all strength characteristics are met. Without records, everything must be R & R'd (remove and replace).

This goes for the airframe, systems and engines. Given this, if records were missing from all three components, residual value will be quite low. Even with scrap and parting out, it will be difficult to unload actuators, landing gear, engines, avionics, etc. if they have no evidence of compliance.

The only hope is that if the components have been repaired by outside sources, and THEY are able to provide documented evidence of conformity, then it would may possible to return the unit to service.

My issue is that I do not know what the extent of loss was to the records, but I do know that this is the main issue with the sale of the airframes. Considering the state of OA before privatization, I would consider a market value purchase of these airframes (at scrap) very risky. Although OA enjoyed a stellar reputation with regard to maintenance, THAT alone is not enough to overcome overwhelming potential costs involved with bringing valuable components to airworthy standards, let alone the entire aircraft.

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XT6Wagon
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:50 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 23):
Ghad... the engines + nacelles are worth that! Then again, what is the status of their pedigree.

Even if they were perfect mechanical and paperwork when parked. I can't imagine that the money was spent to properly mothball these frames and the engines, so I can't imagine they are good for anything more than cores for rebuilding if that.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 23):
I would be shocked if they ever fly more than the ferry flight to the scrapper.

With 4 in one place, I'd assume who ever bought them got it in the contract a time window to scrap in place, the cost to make legal to fly even for ferry flight wouldn't be cheap.
 
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:19 pm

Quoting poLOT (Reply 22):
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 21):Are these the same A340s that got Hellenic Imperial colours/titles? If so, one of them is now in Singapore.No, Hellenic Imperial is taking ex Gulf Air A340s.

Which one is currently in Singapore? From what I know the two A340-300s that were meant to go to Hellenic Imperial have never flown there and were both returned to Gulf Air, however, they are currently are parked.
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jfk777
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:55 pm

How long have the 4 Olympic A340's been parked ? 3 years ?
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:06 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 16):
There are airlines needing used 340 like that airline in Argentina. AR should buy every A340 in sight it can get a hold of.

There maybe a market for 2nd hand A340's, but i'm sure these particular aircraft are at the bottom of the barrell when it comes to condition. THY has recently placed 2 with AirBlue of Pakistan.
 
rleiro
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:08 pm

It was rumored that Conviasa was interested in these A340's, but due to the lack of maintenance logbooks they declined the offer.

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SEA
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:41 pm

Quoting rleiro (Reply 31):

It was rumored that Conviasa was interested in these A340's, but due to the lack of maintenance logbooks they declined the offer.

If they had had proper MX logbooks (or proper MX in the first place after being stored), I'm sure there would have been interest at least a few airlines.
 
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:17 pm

More new beer cans......         
 
TomFoolery
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:05 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 27):
Even if they were perfect mechanical and paperwork when parked. I can't imagine that the money was spent to properly mothball these frames and the engines, so I can't imagine they are good for anything more than cores for rebuilding if that.

Excellent point.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 27):
With 4 in one place, I'd assume who ever bought them got it in the contract a time window to scrap in place, the cost to make legal to fly even for ferry flight wouldn't be cheap.

This same thought came to me as well.

If they did condition the If they did ferry them, could this be done under an 'experimental' classification?
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lewis
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:17 pm

Quoting lh526 (Reply 9):
I don't get it: Why didn't anyone within the greek government or anyone responsible for the planes manage to sell them or at least preserve them in a good state?

Because it is the normal thing for the Greek government to treat public property and the public coffers like that. I am surprised they were able to sell them eventually but they now make little to no difference to the country's financial problems. You should never use the word "responsible" for anyone holding a government position there, few fit that characterization.

I remember reading somewhere that a disgruntled employee of the former OA was the one who destroyed the maintenance logs for these aircraft. I am pretty sure that if it is true, he has not been held responsible for causing damages of millions of Euros to the state. Also nobody held responsible for basic safekeeping of those records - like copies or digital storage maybe? Not surprised one bit.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 4):
$10 million a piece sounds like scrap/parts value.

I was also reading somewhere that, even for scrap/parts value, $10 million each is still too low.
 
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viasa
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:38 pm

I'm quite sure, that I heard the same information about 4 months ago...
 
SEPilot
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:20 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 35):
I was also reading somewhere that, even for scrap/parts value, $10 million each is still too low.

But as TomFoolery pointed out, without the maintenance records very few of the parts can ever fly again. When I read that the records were incomplete, I assumed that there were just some gaps, which would have left a lot of parts still usable (all you would need to prove is that they were original, and had not been removed or modified; or that the appropriate records exist for that part.) But if ALL the records are gone, it renders pretty much everything unairworthy.
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Viscount724
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:32 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 29):
How long have the 4 Olympic A340's been parked ? 3 years ?

Almost 3 years. September 2009 I believe.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting lh526 (Reply 9):
I don't get it: Why didn't anyone within the greek government or anyone responsible for the planes manage to sell them or at least preserve them in a good state? How many millions of dollars that could help towards greeks depth problem are now wasted due to the negligence of some greek official?

When an administration is already deficient and you start firing people left and right, slashing the pay of the rest, things happen.
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OA260
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:30 pm

Article in the Economist about the sale . Nothing we didnt know already  

The parable of the four-engined planes

AN OLD friend in the aviation business, with years of experience with Greek clients, told me a story that serves as a parable for how the country got into its current state. It concerns the sale of four Airbus long-haul planes after the national flag carrier, Olympic Airways, went bust. In 2007 an American valuation consultancy, Avitas, put a value of $45m on each of the A340-300 planes, which were then eight years old and still airworthy. Offers by outside firms to handle the sale were turned down. Instead a special state-owned firm with hundreds of employees was established, just to flog the four surplus planes.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2012/07/greeces-crisis
 
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Polot
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:09 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 40):
Article in the Economist about the sale . Nothing we didnt know already

An interesting article. Why would Cirrus want A340s though?
 
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 40):
http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2012/07/greeces-crisis

It is an unbelievable disgrace. Greece seems to be uniquely dysfunctional even by the standards of countries where people die of starvation or there's no roads or telephones. Would the sale of the A340s (and by extension, the management of the entire public sector and the economy and the nation) be any different in Chad, Equatorial Guinea, Congo? I cannot see how. Greeks I have met on my visits to Greece in the 80s and 90s were nice and educated, what's behind this awful disaster that they cannot seem to escape from?

I do remember visiting the cockpit of Olympic 747-200s en route to and from Australia in the 90s and finding, like, six operational crew, not all in full uniform, and wondered what they all did. Didn't feel like an efficient operation (and always wondered at the sight of smoking refuellers on the ramp at Hellenikon) but OA long haul was usually a nice experience from a passenger's point of view. Luckily I was a smoker in those days.
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lewis
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:12 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 42):
I cannot see how. Greeks I have met on my visits to Greece in the 80s and 90s were nice and educated, what's behind this awful disaster that they cannot seem to escape from?

The Greek paradox, Greeks who live abroad (the ones who can escape from that disaster) tend to do very well for themselves. It is the country's way of doing things that needs a jump start.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 42):
I do remember visiting the cockpit of Olympic 747-200s en route to and from Australia in the 90s and finding, like, six operational crew, not all in full uniform, and wondered what they all did

Having flown the route as crew family numerous times and having spent some of those flights in the cockpit, I have never seen 6 operational crew in there. 5 was the normal and they were always in uniform. Maybe the sixth was an off-duty crew member?

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 42):
Would the sale of the A340s (and by extension, the management of the entire public sector and the economy and the nation) be any different in Chad, Equatorial Guinea, Congo? I cannot see how.

The problem with those planes was that they were government assets, not OA's assets, and so you get involved with all the endless regulation and bureaucracy that the Greek state is notorious for. It is evident that in its current form, the government is very dysfunctional and I doubt that they will be able to change that around in the short time needed.
 
richierich
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:19 pm

Were these the only A343s that OA had in their fleet? If they had others, what happened to them? Were they leased or sold prior to the shutdown?
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lewis
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RE: Greek Govt Finally Sells Former OA A340s

Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:58 pm

Quoting richierich (Reply 44):

They only had those 4 aircraft.