ferpe
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Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:07 am

The Airbus Twitter account writes from Farnborough:

#Airbus offering enhanced A330. 400 naut. miles more range on -300 model. London-Tokyo, San Fran.-Beijing now among poss. nonstops.

So they took the easy and effective way, Sharklets would only have been worth +70nm for a lot of recertification. MTOW and perhaps a PIP as well is things they have done ZIG times on this frame series, a straightforward trade.

[Edited 2012-07-09 03:07:48]
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Extra300
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:54 am

Good news for the A330 programme!

Maybe this new 240t 330 can replace some of the A343 out there?
 
PM
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:15 am

Not unconnected to this, I'm sure...

http://www.rolls-royce.com/civil/new...ormance_improvement_700_engine.jsp

Amazing how RR just keep making the Trent 700 better.
 
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sturmovik
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:32 am

The A333 has improved ~2000nm in range from the original 1992 version! That seems staggering.. I know its been 20 years, but amazing stuff!
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ferpe
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:45 am

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Not unconnected to this, I'm sure...

Nope, the increased weight bought them 350nm on the 333 and the last 50 is the T700 PIP.

Here the Airbus announcement: http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...range-a330-with-increased-payload/

[Edited 2012-07-09 04:54:27]
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:49 am

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Not unconnected to this, I'm sure...

I agree, reading this in the article: "The enhanced Trent 700 will complement the improvements to the A330 aircraft that Airbus has announced"

I wonder >1% fuel burn improvement combined with higher MTOW will be the improvement MH are looking for, enabling them to replace 77E's with A333? KUL-AMS would be difficult I suspect.
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:04 pm

Let the speculation begin who will be the first customer!

...sounds like the prefect A343 replacement at LH/LX.

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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:08 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 5):
I wonder >1% fuel burn improvement combined with higher MTOW will be the improvement MH are looking for, enabling them to replace 77E's with A333? KUL-AMS would be difficult I suspect.

- Too long a route for even this enhanced 333, 332 of course would have no issue.
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:11 pm

I wonder if they are saving the sharklets for the next round of incrementals then, circa 2015? There was this interesting article which mentioned that the codename "Ultimate" given to this enhancement was dropped because it had a connotation that the end was nigh. Sharklets + NEO would make it the Ultimate 330 for sure.
 
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:51 pm

Quoting sturmovik (Reply 3):
The A333 has improved ~2000nm in range from the original 1992 version!

Nitpick, we're talking 1600nm improvement. That is still impressive!

Quoting india1 (Reply 8):
I wonder if they are saving the sharklets for the next round of incrementals then

I expected them in this round. IMHO, Airbus is switching which sharklets to consider (for more range).

Quoting india1 (Reply 8):
Sharklets + NEO would make it the Ultimate 330 for sure.

I do not see the business case for the engine vendors on the NEO. Not with the A320NEO, MAX, 788/789, and A350. Not anymore that is. (I used to be a fan, back when the EIS would have been much earlier.) There is no engine 'on the shelf' for a quick upgrade.

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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:56 pm

Depending on what they have done to achieve it , is it possible that it could be retrofitted to the present 233 and 238t versions.?
 
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:58 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 10):
Depending on what they have done to achieve it , is it possible that it could be retrofitted to the present 233 and 238t versions.?

The 238t upgrade certainly was retrofittable, so my guess would be "yes".

The RR article suggests that the engine PIP is retrofittable too  

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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:14 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 5):
I agree, reading this in the article: "The enhanced Trent 700 will complement the improvements to the A330 aircraft that Airbus has announced"

And so Airbus is continue to show that there still is a lot of potential in the highly impressive and successful A330 program.  .

I wonder when they might do something like the shark-lets. Maybe with the next package for 2017?     .
 
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:30 pm

What do you think, wouldn´t this 240t A333 be the ideal plane for SK to replace their 343?
 
RubberJungle
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:32 pm

Quoting ka (Reply 6):
Let the speculation begin who will be the first customer!

Subscriber only story, but this says Airbus is in talks potentially to land a customer this week:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...nch-customer-for-240t-a330-374039/
 
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:40 pm

Quoting RubberJungle (Reply 14):
Airbus is in talks potentially to land a customer

As per an earlier report, they said "3 airlines and a leasing company" asked them if they could have it ready earlier, but mid-2015 is what they're targetting.
 
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:26 pm

Quoting india1 (Reply 15):
As per an earlier report, they said "3 airlines and a leasing company" asked them if they could have it ready earlier, but mid-2015 is what they're targetting.

With the A350 EIS slipping, this is a good tactical move by Airbus to tide A350 customers over.

One interesting point is that the A330-200 can now lift some 10 tons more payload by weight than the A350-800 (and some 15t more than the 787-8). The A330-300 now also looks to match the payload weight of the A350-900 and 787-9.

[Edited 2012-07-09 07:33:09]
 
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:07 pm

Airbus has stopped at tweaking measures to go to these 400nm, given the cost of the re-certification for a sharklet updagrade (look at the 320 flight test program, it spans a year just for the sharklets, they affect everything, start, cruise, landing) the tweak effort/return on payload/range is more optimal.

Here the tweaks (per A feature story from Farnbourough http://event.airbus.com/airshows/far...with-more-payload-and-range.html):


Start performance (retain performance as much as possible at 240t instead of 235t):
- Improve drag at start (and thus L/D) by tuning the inboard slat deployment, direct spin-off from A350 who uses an even lower drag droop-nose on the inboard wing to lower drag (learned from the A380 program which started this trend).


Cruise performance (spec range now 5950nm):
- Reshape the flap fairings for lower drag (learning from A350 aero program).
- Tune the fly by wire for laod alleviation by deploying the ailerons to off-load the outer parts of the wing when hit by gust (also from A350 which can run the flaps and the ailerons for load alleviation). Thus (almost?) no extra structure for hike in MTOW.
- Get RR to tune the T700 another percent.


A problem is that the 333 hits it tank limit at 5500nm in the previous versions, the aero and T700 tweak can perhaps increase that to 5700nm, the last 250nm is then in the area where one leaves of payload to gain range despite not being able to fill the same weight in fuel.
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:24 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 4):

The airframe from a takeoff performance perspective with the available was still capable of another 10-15t TOW, I suspect we will see more of these announcement in the future.

Quoting RubberJungle (Reply 14):

In the press statement, one of the routes listed was "Kuala Lumpur to Paris", we discussed on a recent thread a FI article about MH considering the A330 to replace their 777s. FI - MAS Ponders Longer-range A330 (by astuteman Jul 4 2012 in Civil Aviation)

I said in that thread, the longest route that MH have with the 777 is KUL-CDG, this maybe aimed directly at them.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):

One interesting point is that the A330-200 can now lift some 10 tons more payload by weight than the A350-800 (and some 15t more than the 787-8). The A330-300 now also looks to match the payload weight of the A350-900 and 787-9.

However not over the same range.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 17):
- Improve drag at start (and thus L/D) by tuning the inboard slat deployment, direct spin-off from A350 who uses an even lower drag droop-nose on the inboard wing to lower drag (learned from the A380 program which started this trend).

I wonder if them means a change of the inboard slat angle, they are fairly large devices.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 17):
the aero and T700 tweak can perhaps increase that to 5700nm, the last 250nm is then in the area where one leaves of payload to gain range despite not being able to fill the same weight in fuel.

I have speculated in the past that they may offer a T700 core upgrade similar in a way the T700 core was used to upgrade the 524. If they can get a counter rotating core into the T700, I could see the engine saving the best part of another 5%.
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ferpe
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 18):
Quoting ferpe (Reply 17):the aero and T700 tweak can perhaps increase that to 5700nm, the last 250nm is then in the area where one leaves of payload to gain range despite not being able to fill the same weight in fuel.
I have speculated in the past that they may offer a T700 core upgrade similar in a way the T700 core was used to upgrade the 524. If they can get a counter rotating core into the T700, I could see the engine saving the best part of another 5%.

In practice, on a 233t 333 how much of a problem is the tank limit? With a real world DOW at some 128t or so (or even more, which is some 4-5t over the spec OEW) and depending on seating I guess there is not enough tons left to share between payload and fuel to come to the tank limit very often, even if one would have legs or wind/alternative conditions that forces a MTOW start.

Your experiences?
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:48 pm

Assuming MZFW (175t) does not change, a 240t MTOW would allow the A330-300 to tank 65t of fuel, which would be within 11.5t of the usable fuel capacity.
 
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:13 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 19):

In practice, on a 233t 333 how much of a problem is the tank limit?

Generally speaking it is not an issue for our route network. The problem is not when everything is reasonably good, it is in conditions where you have widespread weather taking out a number of nearby alternates like we have in typhoon season.
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:27 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 21):
it is in conditions where you have widespread weather taking out a number of nearby alternates like we have in typhoon season.

How do you adjust for this ? Being more consevative on holding times and diversion distances. Perhaps something like 1 hour and 400 or more nm.?
 
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:44 pm

How long of a range for the A332 now?
 
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:24 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
How long of a range for the A332 now?

The current 238t A330-200 will get you 7250nm. An additional 2t fuel will give you 20min more flying time and 150nm.
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:36 pm

The A330 is a great aircraft...just as Boeing hit the sweet spot with the 77W, the A332/333 seem to just keep getting better. There is no more graceful a sight in final approach, although the 787 might steal that crown.

It's a really healthy sign to see both Airbus and Boeing pushing more and more performance out of existing models...that continuous improvement will drive both on in a competitive way, to all our benefit.
 
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:51 pm

I think the very first airline to sign for it , will be Malaysia.
They stated last week they are ready to get this plane to replace the 772 , and thus to simplify their fleet.Seems as no A350 or 787 for them right now.

I wonder if Airbus has not been pushed by Malaysia for this enhanced version.

The simplified Malaysia fleet would be A380 , A333 (and 332F) , 738 (perhaps one day MAX) and ATR for their regional affiliates.
 
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 17):

A problem is that the 333 hits it tank limit at 5500nm in the previous versions, the aero and T700 tweak can perhaps increase that to 5700nm, the last 250nm is then in the area where one leaves of payload to gain range despite not being able to fill the same weight in fuel.

   5,950nm?!! Theoretically at least, that gives it nonstop LHR-MNL range at 5,821nm GC.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lhr-mnl&DU=nm

Quoting zeke (Reply 21):
The problem is not when everything is reasonably good, it is in conditions where you have widespread weather taking out a number of nearby alternates like we have in typhoon season.

This would not be much of a problem as historically, LGW-MNL was normally flown with intermediate stops to pick up connecting passengers (provided fifth freedom rights are granted), and 5,500 nm would still be good for JED-MNL at 4,647 nm .....

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=jed-mnl&DU=nm.

  

The remaining questions are (apart from the blacklist) how quickly they could deliver and for how much?

[Edited 2012-07-09 14:33:41]
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:49 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
Assuming MZFW (175t) does not change, a 240t MTOW would allow the A330-300 to tank 65t of fuel, which would be within 11.5t of the usable fuel capacity.


A announced they would up the MZFW with "almost" the 5t. That is the beauty of solving your beef up problem with load alleviation, the whole frame benefits (except of course for the LG which still feels the 240t) as you limit the dimensioning loadcases X, Y and Z to the same values or justabout. So you can increase the MZFW without a lot of heavy beefing up of eg the wingroot as your dimensioning loadcase stays the same (or almost the same).
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:31 pm

Quoting ka (Reply 6):
Let the speculation begin who will be the first customer!

Just go down the list if A340 operators, exclude the ones with A350/B787 orders, then when you run out of it, add current 772 operators who can't afford to wait for B787/A359 slots.

[Edited 2012-07-09 16:32:23]
 
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:39 pm

Quoting titus95 (Reply 26):
I think the very first airline to sign for it , will be Malaysia.

They need 6400nm for KUL-LHR based on a timetable time ~ 13h 40m. I doubt if the revised A333 will give them what they need for this particular city pair.
 
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:22 am

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 24):
The current 238t A330-200 will get you 7250nm. An additional 2t fuel will give you 20min more flying time and 150nm.

The article published on Airbus' website states the following: Meanwhile, the new 240 tonne A330-200 will fly up to 270nm further – to 7,050nm (13,060km) – with 246 passengers and carry over 2.5 tonnes more payload than today’s 238 tonne A330-200.
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:34 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 31):
The article published on Airbus' website states the following: Meanwhile, the new 240 tonne A330-200 will fly up to 270nm further – to 7,050nm (13,060km) – with 246 passengers and carry over 2.5 tonnes more payload than today’s 238 tonne A330-200.

I find that very strange as well, as if they say that their official web data from before was not correct (238t flies 7250nm with 3 class cabin of 253 seats). The same goes for the 333, a 235t frame flies 295 pax+bags 5850nm. Then 300pax to 5950nm is no 400nm plus for the new 240t variant.

Why this inconsistency??
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imiakhtar
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:54 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 31):

The article published on Airbus' website states the following: Meanwhile, the new 240 tonne A330-200 will fly up to 270nm further – to 7,050nm (13,060km) – with 246 passengers and carry over 2.5 tonnes more payload than today’s 238 tonne A330-200.

I was working off the A330 specs on airbus.com here:

http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...330family/a330-200/specifications/

The current HGW variant (238t MTOW) of the A330-200 is listed as 7250nm.

Airbus does offer different payload-range weight variants for it's lineup. Perhaps that is the case here?
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:56 am

Hopefully they will update the APACs soon and use the 240t metric for the payload-range charts.
 
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 34):
Hopefully they will update the APACs soon and use the 240t metric for the payload-range charts.

So far as I know they never updated the payload/range charts for the 238t version. In their most recent ACAPS they are no longer providing OEW detail.
 
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:30 am

Airbus issued an excel in January which concurred with their website values, it was rather detailed and I have been using it since for my frame excel. Either they are backpedaling now (which I have not seen them do before) or they have changed rules for the Farnborough presentation. It might be they have another bag allowance or some freight in the belly as well.

W'ell probably know when one of the journous pick up on this and ask them.
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:24 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 36):
Airbus issued an excel in January which concurred with their website values, it was rather detailed and I have been using it since for my frame excel. Either they are backpedaling now (which I have not seen them do before) or they have changed rules for the Farnborough presentation. It might be they have another bag allowance or some freight in the belly as well.

W'ell probably know when one of the journous pick up on this and ask them.

Prior to the 238t announcement when the 233t was the baseline HGW option, airbus listed the A330-200 range as 6750nm.

This was followed a few years ago by the 238t option which along with engine PIPs - RR Launch Trent 700EP (by PM Dec 23 2008 in Civil Aviation) - pushed the range to 7250nm.
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:43 am

Are Delta's 332/333 upgradable to the 240t standard. This seems to be a quick fix to boost capacity on some long thin routes?
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:17 am

Quoting Coronado (Reply 38):
Are Delta's 332/333 upgradable to the 240t standard.

I would expect so. They all appear to be delivered in 2009 and 2010 per airfleets.net and I believe those have the structure to take MTOW hike.
 
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:51 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 9):
Nitpick, we're talking 1600nm improvement.

I went by what the Airbus press release stated, I guess their corporate communications dept rounded it off to the higher number?  
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:21 am

Quoting ferpe (Reply 17):
A problem is that the 333 hits it tank limit at 5500nm in the previous versions, the aero and T700 tweak can perhaps increase that to 5700nm, the last 250nm is then in the area where one leaves of payload to gain range despite not being able to fill the same weight in fuel.

The A333 is a very fine, very efficient plane for mid range and mid to long range, but it isn't an ULR plane.

Quoting zeke (Reply 18):
However not over the same range.

The A333 isn't an ULR plane - but many connections do not need this range.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 32):
I find that very strange as well, as if they say that their official web data from before was not correct (238t flies 7250nm with 3 class cabin of 253 seats). The same goes for the 333, a 235t frame flies 295 pax+bags 5850nm. Then 300pax to 5950nm is no 400nm plus for the new 240t variant.

Why this inconsistency??

For me this indicates that there is a win from the MTOW increase AND a win from other improvements.

I would not wonder if LH orders a couple of them for replacement the oldest A343 to have more time until the current paper planes 7810 and A3510 are defined so well that no surprise is to be expected. From FRA, MUC, ZRH many destinations like central or southern US, Thailand, China, Korea are safely within range of such an aircraft.
 
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:35 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 39):
I would expect so. They all appear to be delivered in 2009 and 2010 per airfleets.net and I believe those have the structure to take MTOW hike.

Airfleets.net list when the aircraft was transfered from Northwest to Delta, not when it was built. The first one is a 2003-model AFAIK
 
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:35 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 18):
The airframe from a takeoff performance perspective with the available was still capable of another 10-15t TOW, I suspect we will see more of these announcement in the future.

I don't quite understand that statement...what then is the constraint with the available amount of thrust? Surely if one adds another 10-15t of weight, T/O performance is degraded at certain airports.


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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:40 am

Quoting faro (Reply 43):

I don't quite understand that statement...what then is the constraint with the available amount of thrust?

Structural, hence the reason I think why the A340 has the center landing gear for takeoff, it is not needed for landing. I just know when I punch out an RTOW it gives us the maximum possible under those conditions and runway, and the number is often over 250t.

Quoting faro (Reply 43):
Surely if one adds another 10-15t of weight, T/O performance is degraded at certain airports.

Correct, I was talking about a sea level airport.
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RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:21 am

By the way, what is today's longest 333 route? The one I know about is FRA-SEA, by LH. Can we say that this is the current 333's limit and FRA-SFO or FRA-LAX, for example, are not doable with reasonable payload?
 
JerseyFlyer
Posts: 838
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 7:24 pm

RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:45 am

Do we know if the improvements include eliminating the redundant structures in the wing that were there for the A340 outboard 2 engines? This was speculated on previously.
 
JerseyFlyer
Posts: 838
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 7:24 pm

RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:48 am

This change will create some clear space between the A332F new-build and the P2F conversions.

What chance a new-build A333F now? Could someone with technical knowledge estimate its potential capabilities?
 
SASMD82
Posts: 616
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:44 am

RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:45 pm

Quoting workhorse (Reply 45):
By the way, what is today's longest 333 route? The one I know about is FRA-SEA, by LH. Can we say that this is the current 333's limit and FRA-SFO or FRA-LAX, for example, are not doable with reasonable payload?

Yeah, probably. In another thread there was discussed which aircraft could replace KLM's MD-11 best on the routes to the Caribean. In my opinion, it would be the A333 (because the B772 is too much plane for these routes up to 9,000 km) because it has the ideal range with 25% less fuel costs with more comfort for the passengers. However, it seemed that I was the only one thinking that. Many fellow A-netters claimed that the 9,000 km is not a realistic range without payload penalties. That is why I think that the FRA-SEA route is done with payload restrictions.

Of course I am curious to read some input.
 
sweair
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 am

RE: Airbus Announces 240t A333, 332 And 332F

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:01 pm

Looks like the A330 family will stay for a bit longer.

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