skipness1E
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Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:32 am

Todays Times is quoting Steve Ridgeway of Virgin Atlantic pushing BAA to make his airline the "anchor tennant" at the new T2. Also, apparently VS have always wanted to fly short haul from LHR. Apparently.

A move to T2 would be a step up in the passenger experience, and given it will be missing BMI, I guess the space is there. Would mean moving the Clubhouse though. A good move if it comes off I think. The short haul stuff remains nonsense on stilts in my view however. STAR anyone?
 
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teme82
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:35 am

Quoting skipness1E (Thread starter):
The short haul stuff remains nonsense on stilts in my view however. STAR anyone?

Since BMI is gone I would think that VS. Or should I say Virgin Europe. Would make BA's life harder in LHR and perhaps boost VS's long-haul ops.
Flying high and low
 
fcogafa
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:44 am

HAL might be up for it as they need to reduce capacity in T3 to allow for revamp/rebuilding of pier 7 etc.
 
GCT64
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:37 am

Quoting skipness1E (Thread starter):
Steve Ridgeway of Virgin Atlantic pushing BAA to make his airline the "anchor tennant" at the new T2.

Given that the new T2 (along with T5) are going to offer, by far, better pax experiences than T3 or T4 this makes a lot of sense from Virgin's viewpoint. It would also allow room for T3 to be re-developed to properly serve OW (primarily BA overflow and AA). However, if I was Star, especially UA and AC, I would resist strongly VS becoming the anchor tenant and allowing the Star requirements / experience to be subjugated to VS's parochial demands.
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jfk777
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:41 am

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 3):
Given that the new T2 (along with T5) are going to offer, by far, better pax experiences than T3 or T4 this makes a lot of sense from Virgin's viewpoint. It would also allow room for T3 to be re-developed to properly serve OW (primarily BA overflow and AA). However, if I was Star, especially UA and AC, I would resist strongly VS becoming the anchor tenant and allowing the Star requirements / experience to be subjugated to VS's parochial demands.

The logical alliance for Virgin Atlantic would be Star, if that happens then VS should be in T2.
 
sevenheavy
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:07 pm

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 3):
However, if I was Star, especially UA and AC, I would resist strongly VS becoming the anchor tenant and allowing the Star requirements / experience to be subjugated to VS's parochial demands.

Lets assume VS stayed away from STAR, what are these "parochial" demands that VS are making that would impact the STAR experience so dearly?

Behind the scenes, this is nothing new. VS have always been involved/consulted in a potential move to T2. Ultimately they are a hub carrier. Why shouldn't they have access to new facilities. BA rightly had access to T5, and made a huge number of demands on the BAA, most of which were agreed to. In the interests of fairness surely another base carrier should be given similar access to new facilities as they become available?

All that said, there are a number of different plans behind the scenes that may or may not conspire together and make some interesting developments with regards to VS, STAR, domestic routes, etc. etc. Maybe there is a bigger plan. We shall see...
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:09 pm

VS moving out of T3, thus allowing it to become exclusively BA/OW is the most logical answer to the challenges posed by the demise of BD. I thought however that VS would complain bitterly about the possibility of having to move.
 
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SKAirbus
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:16 pm

I wonder if BA will keep an operation at T2 as T1 will close and T3 just does not have the capacity for increased BA ops, then again with all the Star ops moving to T2 I would guess that some gate space will open.

As we are so used to from VS now, I reckon it is just anothier MOL/Branson style hollow wolf-crying lie  
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tonystan
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:50 pm

If VS move to T2 then it may free up enough space for BA to consolidate its T1/T3 services alongside its OW partners in T3 and give them an upgraded facility of they take over the VS check in area.
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irregking
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:04 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 7):
As we are so used to from VS now, I reckon it is just anothier MOL/Branson style hollow wolf-crying lie  

They do cry a lot don't they?....... and that really makes me start to wonder; if the whole Aviation Business always shrugs MO'L and Branson off as cry-babies, when will these 2 have enough and step into the limelight with an explosion bigger than a Sydney New Year's eve firework?

I am not really invested in stories about Ryanair nor Virgin as I don't particularly care about these 2 airlines, but I have the feeling that they are putting their money on the "who's laughing NOW?" moment....
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mikey72
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:36 am

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 5):
Why shouldn't they have access to new facilities. BA rightly had access to T5, and made a huge number of demands on the BAA, most of which were agreed to. In the interests of fairness surely another base carrier should be given similar access to new facilities as they become available?

     

Fairness is not an option when discussing European carriers.

Chapter 11 and EK's relationship with DXB blew that baby out of the water years ago.
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Gingersnap
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:11 am

Rightly so.

VS is a UK carrier, and they should have access to the best facilities at LHR. I don't believe BAA will bow to any pressure from STAR carriers assuming VS doesn't join, because if you're going to give in to demands from BA, then it's only right you give concessions to VS for a similar opportunity.
UK carriers should always come first and have access to the best facilities at all UK airports. Just as carriers in other countries should have access to the best facilities their respective airports offer.
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robertlondon
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:31 am

Don't SQ still have a major shareholding in VS ?

If VS do go down the alliance route it seems likely that STAR would be their first choice. Think that's a given !

In terms of benefit to all concerned surely this is a good thing ?
 
Ps76
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:09 am

Hi!

It would quite a big move. Virgin doesn't just have a few ticket desks at T3. It has a big area all to itself with a big red Virgin logo in neon and stuff. I'm sure the new T2 will be much nicer though so they would like to move there. I wonder if the gates will be able to handle the widebodies of Virgin's fleet.

As for flying shorthaul I think there are too many carriers in that market already. British Airways, Easyjet, Ryanair and all the European airlines flying into London. I could be wrong though,

Many thanks.

P.
 
jfk777
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:56 am

IF Virgin did move out of T3 then Terminal 3 would be a OW terminal. Since Skyteam moved to T4 in 2009 with non-aligned airlines. Terminal 2 has been designated the future Star Alliance terminal at LHR. THe BIG question is what would Emirates do with its 5 A380 flights daily ?
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:06 pm

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 11):
I don't believe BAA will bow to any pressure from STAR carriers assuming VS doesn't join, because if you're going to give in to demands from BA, then it's only right you give concessions to VS for a similar opportunity

With the likes of UA, AC and LH to name but a few, there is a lot of airlines there that can assert quite a lot of pressure if they need to and I am sure BAA would not brush that aside. T2 was always going to be *A Terminal and now VS wants to gate crash the party. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
 
GCT64
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:16 pm

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 15):
T2 was always going to be *A Terminal and now VS wants to gate crash the party. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

That's exactly what I was alluding to earlier (although I inextricably omitted LH from my list of big, powerful, Star presences at LHR!). If VS does not join Star, it is not obvious that VS and LH/UA/AC (etc.) could both live side by side and simultaneously optimise their respective pax experiences (unless BAA somehow "split" the terminal into two virtual terninals - all purple and red and clubshousey at one end and black, grey, muted browns and understated germanic efficiency at the other). If I was a major Star airline I would be nervous about VS's "anchor tenant" comment.

Perversely, the outcome of a VS move to T2 to sit alongside (or as part of) Star is, in the long run, probably most beneficial to BA and OW as they will get to re-build T3 optimised to meet their needs (and will connect it seemlessly to T5) and they will definitely be the "anchor tenant" there.
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sevenheavy
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:24 pm

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 16):

This just isn't an argument for opposing a potential move for VS into T2. Wherever you go in the world the base carrier will be afforded varying degrees of favouritism when it comes to the facilities available to them. FRA, DFW, DXB, etc. etc.

Besides, the notion that it would split the terminal just doesn't hold any water. Being " all purple and red and clubhousey" is meaningless. For a start, no one except those that are supposed to be there would ever see the clubhouse, and the BAA have very strict regulations on how much an airline can "brand" it's property. Take T5, it's been tailored to BA but that doesn't mean they were able to fit it out like a giant marketing suite, or the inside of one of their aircraft.

IF, VS and Star were to coexist as independent operators in T2 it really wouldn't be the huge issue you imply. How many airlines coexist relatively happily (aside from the occasional inevitable marking of territory) in T3 now? Or in T4, or in MUC or HKG?

Its simply not a viable argument.
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
skipness1E
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:41 pm

Emirates are non aligned and staying put in T3. The rules are not absolute, some non aligned carriers are not in T4. Like VS, Emirates have invested heavily in lounge infrastructure, and a four gate A380 pier would be empty with only QANTAS each day.
 
virgincrew
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:37 am

May be we will see one of these soon .....

Hello Beautiful !!!
 
mikey72
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:40 am

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 19):
May be we will see one of these soon .....

Nice one...lol.....you crack me up !

Keep'em coming !!
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
mikey72
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:44 am

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 17):
IF, VS and Star were to coexist as independent operators in T2 it really wouldn't be the huge issue you imply.

Absolutely.

I am of the mind that as consolidation increases VS will become more and more unique.

It's up to VS to make sure that it is unique in all the right ways.

VS will never be huge...so what....does it matter ?

No.

LHR is the jewel in VS's crown.

[Edited 2012-07-13 02:44:45]
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
slinky09
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:26 am

Quoting robertlondon (Reply 12):
Don't SQ still have a major shareholding in VS ?

If VS do go down the alliance route it seems likely that STAR would be their first choice. Think that's a given !

But SQ is seeking to divest itself of that. Also, I wouldn't guarantee anything about VS joining an alliance, I hear that of the two options open there are powerful airlines who don't want VS in them, no idea who but it's all very political apparently. That said, VS branded airlines coming together will be a great thing and a decent codeshare / reciprocal benefits partner in the US is sorely needed now that CO as a partner has gone.

Quoting Ps76 (Reply 13):
It would quite a big move. Virgin doesn't just have a few ticket desks at T3. It has a big area all to itself with a big red Virgin logo in neon and stuff.

And DTCI and the world's best lounge, both of which VS has invested heavily in, so a lot of cost in any move but VS must see the benefit in it if it is true. T2 will alow for further expansion too, gates at T3 are very full.

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 16):
Perversely, the outcome of a VS move to T2 to sit alongside (or as part of) Star is, in the long run, probably most beneficial to BA and OW as they will get to re-build T3 optimised to meet their needs (and will connect it seemlessly to T5) and they will definitely be the "anchor tenant" there.

And that's no bad thing, if T5D happens and the rumoured shuttle train connection extension reaches T3, it will be good and pragmatic for BA to have T5 and a lot of T3 as well as its partners.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 21):
I am of the mind that as consolidation increases VS will become more and more unique.
It's up to VS to make sure that it is unique in all the right ways.
VS will never be huge...so what....does it matter ?

Good gried Mikey, I agree with you!
 
mikey72
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:35 am

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 22):
Good gried Mikey, I agree with you!

See, I'm not all bad.

I have decided to forgive SRB his 'eccentricities' as I do admire his 'chutzpah'

Anyway there is alot more to VS than SRB.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:36 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 21):
I am of the mind that as consolidation increases VS will become more and more unique

Or more and more squeezed and left on the side lines depending on how you want to look at it?
 
TeamintheSky
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:45 am

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 22):
But SQ is seeking to divest itself of that. Also, I wouldn't guarantee anything about VS joining an alliance, I hear that of the two options open there are powerful airlines who don't want VS in them, no idea who but it's all very political apparently. That said, VS branded airlines coming together will be a great thing and a decent codeshare / reciprocal benefits partner in the US is sorely needed now that CO as a partner has gone.

As I am a pretty avid follower of SkyTeam, from remembering articles and other talking, it would seem that your statement would only apply to Star. Michael Wisbrun, SkyTeam's director, has gone on record saying that an offer has been given to VS to join SkyTeam, and the ball was in their court to decide. DL has also made advances, but VS has turned them away with a counteroffer that DL found to be extremely overpriced.

So maybe VS is actually trying to now tag into Star's terminal to force their hand in a way.

Regards,

Team
Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6, AT, US, AY, BE, EI, LG, AZ, 9W, SG, AA, JL, W6
 
mikey72
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:10 pm

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 24):
Or more and more squeezed and left on the side lines depending on how you want to look at it?

Not really.

Considering the appeal of VS to its niche market at an airport with the O&D LHR has to offer we have got to a point where the competition they face is rather like extreme wealth.

You get to a point where it just doesn't make any difference any more.

I think we went past that point a while ago and they are still here.

Like I said, they will never be huge in terms of their network and frequencies but does that really matter ?

They should just remember that in the beginning they didn't set out to be 'another' BA.
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
virgincrew
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 26):
They should just remember that in the beginning they didn't set out to be 'another' BA.

I couldn't agree more - VS needs to remember what they set out to be and go back to that model of working - I really think they are finally heading in the right direction again - new routes, new aircraft, new products and upgrading an aged 744 leisure fleet.

VS are never going to be a 'BA'.
Hello Beautiful !!!
 
mikey72
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:36 am

Quoting virgincrew (Reply 27):

VS are never going to be a 'BA'.

Even if they did reach 'legacy carrier proportions' (whatever that is) and the market could support that considering everything else British carriers face (fierce competition/taxes etc)......

.....would it be a case of the son inheriting the sins of the father ?

They would find themselves very quickly being drawn into (cough, cough)...all manner of unspeakable practices.

Alliances, joint ventures etc

Quick...where's the crucifix.

(just kidding about with you)
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
virgincrew
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:03 am

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 28):
They would find themselves very quickly being drawn into (cough, cough)...all manner of unspeakable practices.

Alliances, joint ventures etc

Quick...where's the crucifix.

(just kidding about with you)

    
Hello Beautiful !!!
 
Aisak
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:01 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):
Terminal 2 has been designated the future Star Alliance terminal

I think "designated" has a more flexible meaning than most of us here think.
Terminal 4 was designated for Skyteam and non-aligned and I still fail to see the area for Domestic&CTA flights for Aer Lingus. And PMCO, now United, is still to move out. Emirates hasn't be expeled out of T3, mainly for their A380 operation.

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 15):
T2 was always going to be *A Terminal and now VS wants to gate crash the party. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

With all I wrote above in mind, I remember former Heathrow East being "designated" for Star Alliance and Virgin Atlantic but that could have changed when Terminal 2 concept took over the project.

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 22):
T2 will alow for further expansion too, gates at T3 are very full.

They may have gates to park the aircrafts but what increase of slots will allow for that expansion? The only expansion VS can achieve is via non LHR flights unless the get more slots. Something like MAN-HKG-MEL so MEL could be seen a a new destination from LHR (via HKG if connection times are met of course).

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):
IF Virgin did move out of T3 then Terminal 3 would be a OW terminal

Not quite as there are several Star carriers still to move out. One can only hope that the move could mitigate the pressure on T3.

There are several to do's on BAA's side for LHR and some of them are more critical than others once T2A is open.

-Aer Lingus at T1: The idea is to bring T1 down so there is room for the second phase of T2. So unless BAA can squeeze them in T5 with BA domestic, Aer Lingus should be using the Domestic&CTA area at T2.
-British Airways at T1: The whole terminal swap started when T5 opened, was aimed to improve passenger experience by avoiding inter-terminal connections. T1 holding flights for BA should end as quickly as possible as virtually al non-O&D passengers on BA-T1 flights have to switch terminals.
-Rest of the carriers at T1: Those are mainly Star carriers so the opening of T2 should allow them to move "back" to T2 to go on with T2B where T1 stands right now.
-United at T4: The former CO operation should move to T2 as soon as the other half of United is. It is quite amussing to see a relatively small operation split betwwen T1 and T4.
-Star airlines at T3: Star carriers signed a MoU with BAA for a operation "under one roof". For the time being it has been "under two roofs" (not including PMCO at T4) due to space constrains.

Now we can add "Virgin wants to cut the ribbon at T2 opening". Then so be it. It might find some room for that priority at BAA's brains, but I guess it will happen if the above can be solved at the same time.
 
tcxdegsy
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:43 pm

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 11):
UK carriers should always come first and have access to the best facilities at all UK airports. Just as carriers in other countries should have access to the best facilities their respective airports offer.

I might be niave, but why? Surely there's argument about all carriers getting access to great facilities, to attract business to the Airport, therefore the Country and the Economy? Lord knows we need it!

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 17):
Wherever you go in the world the base carrier will be afforded varying degrees of favouritism when it comes to the facilities available to them. FRA, DFW, DXB, etc. etc.

Woudln't it be the case that each of these except DFW have a single core Flag Carrier, so the arguement isn't quite the same. In terms of scale, you can't really see how VS has as much muscle to flex as BA (or even LH for that matter). If VS was treated as other non-Alliance/non-aligned carriers, then why are they not given space at T4 instead of 3 or 2? The only difference between those and VS is their home country, that's all.

I agree with the sentiment of VS just creating more press coverage for themselves in the run up to BA being in the spotlight as the Olympic carrier, as they will be in the shadows for a while.

BAA should tell VS to get their toys back in the pram and be happy with the special facilities at T3 they already have, and to wait in line
next flights: BA1441 0566 0581 1446 EDI-LHR-MXP-LHR-EDI
 
sevenheavy
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:15 pm

Quoting tcxdegsy (Reply 31):

Firstly, it's not a case of VS "getting their toys back in their pram"! Normal, civilised negotiations regarding VS potentially moving to T2 have been going on for years, and will continue to do so. VS actually work well with the BAA and both sides have made concessions as part of a solid working relationship.

Secondly, the number of base carriers is largely irrelevant (as is their respective size in the context of this conversation). The point is that any carrier would look and need to showcase the best combination of product and facilities at their hub or base station(s). Let's take an example that has nothing to do with LHR or VS ( although the same logic applies); LH flies from FRA to ATL. FRA is their main hub, and a huge STAR presence. ATL is DL country and a predominantly Skyteam presence. LH has no real influence at ATL, likewise DL in FRA. To stay competitive with each other on this particular route DL relies on ATL to source and connect most of its traffic. Likewise for LH in FRA. Therefore they each put a lot of time, money and economic infrastructure (employment etc.) into their base stations, and in return they rightly expect to wield some influence with the airport authorities.

You can use ORD (UA, AA), JFK (DL, AA, B6) or LAS (WN, G4, maybe US) as examples where multiple base carriers exist and get corresponding "status" with the airport authorities, but it really doesn't make any difference.

Of course BA have more muscle to flex, as you put it. But you have to apply the economy of scale. VS, equally, aren't asking to have T5 to themselves. They are talking about POSSIBLY occupying some space in T2 which incidentally could suit BAA very well. The claim that LH would have more influence over the BAA is also untrue. VS employ far more people, occupy (I.e. lease from the BAA) far more real estate (an entire floor of offices, huge clubhouse, arrivals lounge, the gatehouse, hangar etc. etc. ) and funnel more passengers through LHR than LH do.
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
Gingersnap
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:06 pm

Quoting tcxdegsy (Reply 31):
I might be niave, but why? Surely there's argument about all carriers getting access to great facilities, to attract business to the Airport, therefore the Country and the Economy? Lord knows we need it!

Well in the case of VS, it would be completely unfair to deprive them of the best facilities outside of T5. LHR is their largest base, so they will rely mainly on it to ensure customers are given the best service possible.
With BA in T5, with varying flights out of T1 & T3...you can't then turn round to VS and say "put your toys back in your pram". You can't give BA all that and then tell the other UK hub carrier to shove it.
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mikey72
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting gingersnap (Reply 33):
You can't give BA all that and then tell the other UK hub carrier to shove it.

Whilst attempting to not take sides I think it was fairly obvious from the outset that the most sensible option given their size and presence at LHR was to put BA in Terminal 5.

There were just no 2 ways about it.

Putting them in Terminal 5 actually makes it better for everyone else anyway.

I think we'd all agree on that.

I'm quite confident in SRB's ability to get what he wants regards VS's placement at the airport.

 
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
Gingersnap
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Pressing To Move To LHR T2

Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 34):
I think we'd all agree on that.

100%
Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400