Gonzalo
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737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:43 pm

Confirmed by 737 VP Beverly Wise :

“We’re going to introduce a third line when we bring on the MAX from a final assembly standpoint so that as we’re coming down the learning curve on those initial units we’ll be able to really focus and isolate the other two lines from the changes that will come on the MAX and then we will fairly quickly integrate those into the two main lines".-

Good news for the Boeing family...

Rgds.-

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travelavnut
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:53 pm

Good news indeed! Any information on the location of this 3rd line? (Toulouse perhaps?    )
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petera380
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:28 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 1):
Any information on the location of this 3rd line?

It will be at Renton, WA.
 
msp747
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:33 pm

I know part of the settlement with the union was to build the MAX in Renton. Is there a loophole that would allow them to add another line somewhere else? Or would it have to remain in Washington? I wonder if they would build a new facility in Everett or somewhere else in state, or try to expand their operation in South Carolina or another right to work state.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:34 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 1):
Any information on the location of this 3rd line?

This is confirmation that 737 MAX airframes will be built on the P-8 Poseidon line at Renton. That line is designed to build both commercial and military 737s.
 
Gonzalo
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 1):
Any information on the location of this 3rd line?

The new line will be located where its feeder lines are located, next to Line 1. It will keep the third line for future rate increases.... but your joke about Toulouse was very funny.

Rgds.

G.
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XT6Wagon
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:27 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
This is confirmation that 737 MAX airframes will be built on the P-8 Poseidon line at Renton. That line is designed to build both commercial and military 737s.

Makes me wonder if they won't move the P-8 production to Kansas. Everyone wins. Boeing gets a new line, likely paid for by someone else. Renton workers get the possiblity of 3 full rate lines with a clean transition on each one. The Navy sees its P-8 kept more "sterile" which even if pointless will make them happy. Spirit areosystems, spends some now, makes bales of cash later.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 6):
Makes me wonder if they won't move the P-8 production to Kansas.

The IAM would never stand for it. P-8 production is low enough that Boeing could push close to 60 737 MAX a month out of Renton if they had to.
 
CM
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:03 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
This is confirmation that 737 MAX airframes will be built on the P-8 Poseidon line at Renton. That line is designed to build both commercial and military 737s.

The "third line" will actually be a fourth line. The P-8 line will remain dedicated to military derivatives (a DOD requirement). Boeing will do some rearranging of the current Renton facility to add a third dedicated commercial line, between the two existing commercial lines. Each commercial line will have a capacity of 21 frames per month.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:13 pm

Quoting CM (Reply 8):
The P-8 line will remain dedicated to military derivatives (a DOD requirement)

The P-8 as built in renton has nothing sensitive from a military standpoint. While the DOD would prefer to keep it a stand alone line, it would only make any civilian 737 built on that line slightly more expensive than its normal brothers due to the extra paperwork/oversight.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
The IAM would never stand for it

Why would they care if *only* miliary 737 production moved to Kansas to free up more room for full rate civilian production. It would increase the number of workers at Renton for decades to come. If CM is right and there is room for the 3rd full line without moving the P8 line, I don't see a case for moving the production.
 
CM
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:29 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 9):
The P-8 as built in renton has nothing sensitive from a military standpoint.

No argument. However, Boeing has no interest in sending commercial aircraft down a line that would turn a few days of flow into months... even if the issues could be worked with the DOD. Boeing is not pursuing building commercial frames on the DOD line. When the MAX enters service, there will be 4 production lines in the Renton factory, with three building commercial frames.
 
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kanban
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:30 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
This is confirmation that 737 MAX airframes will be built on the P-8 Poseidon line at Renton. That line is designed to build both commercial and military 737s.



The FAL building the the current 737 is in has a second bay (formerly the 757 lines) that can be converted to 2 737MAX lines. The indication is they are only activating one. the P-8 line in is a different building and although it could produce commercial 737's of either configuration, it is a much slower line.

The goal is to pump out a 737 at a 2 to 3 a day rate from the moving line, the P-8 is more like 1 a week or slower (bikerthai would know for sure) Now if they activated the second 757 line space for the MAX, and the suppliers could support, they could conceivably produce 6 -7 a/c per day (120-140 a month)... darn near B-17 rates.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting CM (Reply 8):
The P-8 line will remain dedicated to military derivatives (a DOD requirement).

I was under the impression that while the P-8 is assembled in a different building due to ITAR compliance, they could still run commercial birds down the line as the facility is access-restricted so non-US nationals without the proper clearance cannot access the FAL. The new 767 FAL is ITAR-compliant but can do both commercial and military frames, so it must have been designed to restrict access when a KC-46 is in one of the two bays.

That being said, if Boeing doesn't need to use the P-8 line and has space to build a third commercial FAL...

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 9):
Why would they care if *only* miliary 737 production moved to Kansas to free up more room for full rate civilian production.

They killed Boeing's plan to move 737-700C / C-40 production to Long Beach. I see no reason why they would allow those jobs to go to Wichita.

[Edited 2012-07-09 09:40:41]
 
Gonzalo
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:15 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
the facility is access-restricted so non-US nationals without the proper clearance cannot access the FAL.

How many workers can that factor affect ?? The areas with restricted access are not that big AFAIK. Can you elaborate on this ?

Thanks in advance.

Rgds.

G.
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CM
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:28 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 13):
How many workers can that factor affect ??

Boeing has a very diverse workforce, with many foreign nationals employed in all roles.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 13):
The areas with restricted access are not that big AFAIK.

The US Department of State and US Department of Commerce place rigid restrictions on what information and technologies these "non-US persons" are able to access. This is true for both commercial and military projects. In the case of the P-8, it is my understanding the Department of State restricts non-US persons from having access to the design areas, its production facility, and the aircraft itself.

Setting up an ITAR controlled area is a large and inconvenient undertaking - if it can be avoided for a commercial production line, you would absolutely choose that path.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:34 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):

This is confirmation that 737 MAX airframes will be built on the P-8 Poseidon line at Renton.
Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 6):

Makes me wonder if they won't move the P-8 production to Kansas.
Quoting CM (Reply 8):

The "third line" will actually be a fourth line. The P-8 line will remain dedicated to military derivatives
Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 9):
737 built on that line slightly more expensive than its normal brothers due to the extra paperwork/oversight.
Quoting kanban (Reply 11):
the P-8 line in is a different building and although it could produce commercial 737's of either configuration, it is a much slower line.

This is all too confusing. I thought you guys answered my un-posted question. But I guess I'm still confused.

Will there be a total of 3 lines (2 NG & 1 MAX/P-8) or 4 (2NG, 1 NG/P-8, and one MAX)?

As for the P-8 ITAR issue. The only additional cost of building a Commercial 737 on the P-8 ITAR line is the additional overhead cost of making sure everyone on the line is a "US Person" and are up to date on Training. There is no additional paperwork for the airframe. The paperwork is related to the line and is sunk cost (needed anyway).

I did heard that the flow on the ITAR line will be slower than the non ITAR line. But the difference is only a few days (5-10?). Most of the Militarize equipment that slows the production is done at Boeing field at the dedicated P-8 Military production line. Remember, Spirit has the same ITAR issue when they assemble the basic structure at their facility.

What I am sure is that there would be no P-8 only line at Renton. The P-8 rate is too low to support a separate line. They will either feed the NG or the MAX through the same line to take advance of the factory space - even though the line would move at a slightly slower pace. It would be no difference than having the Everett and SC plant flowing at a different rate for the 787.

Moving the P-8 line to Spirit is a not as good as it seems cause the wings are made in the Puget Sound. So instead of sending fuselage to PS you'll end up sending wings to Wichita . . . a whole new complication in logistics.

bt
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brindabella
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:01 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 9):
Quoting CM (Reply 8):
The P-8 line will remain dedicated to military derivatives (a DOD requirement)

The P-8 as built in renton has nothing sensitive from a military standpoint. While the DOD would prefer to keep it a stand alone line, it would only make any civilian 737 built on that line slightly more expensive than its normal brothers due to the extra paperwork/oversight.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
The IAM would never stand for it

Why would they care if *only* miliary 737 production moved to Kansas to free up more room for full rate civilian production. It would increase the number of workers at Renton for decades to come. If CM is right and there is room for the 3rd full line without moving the P8 line, I don't see a case for moving the production.

I've been mulling over this for a while. My:
  

is that one of the many messages from the 787 debacle (cool it, fans - I think it will nevertheless be one of the classic aeroplanes despite all; and that Boeing will make an absolute truckload of money out of it. I'm talking here about the catastrophes that led to the 3-4 year delay, and the lessons to be learned).

... (the debacle)... That is, the failures of a couple of high-profile partners to send anything remotely resembling acceptable components/sub- assemblies to WA surely drove home the message that making these "high-tech" babies like the 787 requires unusual and rare agglomerations of skills, capital, management depth, herd-wisdom, etc etc..
So, to me, the logic is that the great bulk of the work for new aeroplanes and/or major "high-tech" upgrades will and should continue to belong in WA state (or, equally, Toulouse/Frankfurt in the Airbus case).

The flip side of the coin is that the IAM and Boeing need to reach a mutual understanding that "known-tech" products do not need to be produced by the highly-skilled+highly-paid WA workforce (the two naturally go together).
In fact, such products should be placed to maximise profitablitiy for the remainder of their lives.
That is, "known-tech" products should seek the lowest cost-base at an acceptable quality-level.
The 737NG and 777LR/ER fit the bill, and at some future stage should probably be considered for an agreed move-out to some degree to allow continued production during the MAX and 777X intros which would follow ... (and they may each in fact continue to be produced for some time thereafter).

The zip-code for such moves do not seem likely to be in WA state.

I realise that this is not quite what you both mean in the quotes above ... but nevertheless germane. (I hope.)

Bill
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roseflyer
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:34 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 6):
Makes me wonder if they won't move the P-8 production to Kansas.

There are places other than Kansas that could support the P-8 line. They could even build it at Boeing Field since the Thompson building which is where the 737 was originally produced is relatively vacant right now. They wouldn’t be able to put the vertical stabilizer on while in the factory, but that’s not an insurmountable problem.

Also who said anything about Spirit? I doubt they have a chance at building anything final assembly, and Boeing desires to shut its own operation in Wichita down.

Quoting CM (Reply 14):
Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 13):
How many workers can that factor affect ??

Boeing has a very diverse workforce, with many foreign nationals employed in all roles.

It’s actually not that diverse in Renton. Boeing hasn’t hired non-US persons in a while in Renton. Basically everyone there is a U.S. person and all the office spaces are ITAR. I’d be surprised to find too many foreign nationals working on the 737 final assembly line.

Quoting CM (Reply 14):

Setting up an ITAR controlled area is a large and inconvenient undertaking - if it can be avoided for a commercial production line, you would absolutely choose that path.

I’m not assuming that it could or will happen, but the wings for the P-8 go down the same production line as the regular 737 wings and the wing line goes into ITAR controls in the area of each set of wings. However I seriously doubt that a P-8 would go down the same line as a MAX. The P-8 is and always will be a 737NG.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 15):
What I am sure is that there would be no P-8 only line at Renton. The P-8 rate is too low to support a separate line. They will either feed the NG or the MAX through the same line to take advance of the factory space - even though the line would move at a slightly slower pace. It would be no difference than having the Everett and SC plant flowing at a different rate for the 787.

I’m a bit surprised that you are sure there would be no P-8 line in Renton, because I doubt the VP of Renton quoted is sure about that. The P-8 line does not have enough space in the 4-17 building to be moving at the same pace as line 1. Maybe it could be at the pace of line 2. Either way, it would require significant remodeling.
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bikerthai
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:45 pm

Quoting CM (Reply 14):
In the case of the P-8, it is my understanding the Department of State restricts non-US persons from having access to the design areas, its production facility, and the aircraft itself.

Setting up an ITAR controlled area is a large and inconvenient undertaking - if it can be avoided for a commercial production line, you would absolutely choose that path.

Non-US person are allowed to have access when cleared and escorted.

With the P-8 ITAR line, it helps that the line is in a separate building than the commercial line. I believe the Tanker line is in the same "building" as the other commercial models, but may be fenced off.

Restriction sometimes involves no more than some yellow "do not cross" tape with appropriate personnel to make sure who ever crosses that tape is a "US person".

Quoting CM (Reply 14):
Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 13):
How many workers can that factor affect ??

Boeing has a very diverse workforce, with many foreign nationals employed in all roles.

Although I'm not completely sure, but I think one of them is our own A.net tdscanuck.

The ITAR issue permeates the company more than just the P-8 or Tanker line. Boeing has Facilities around the country and around the world building both Commercial and Military product. If ITAR activities are done at any location, then special procedure must be followed at each location from factory floor segregation and signage to database isolation (for Engineering and Planning data etc).

In fact . . . Boeing is having ITAR parts built in India. They just have to get approval from the State Department and have the Indian Supplier be ITAR compliant.

(Some of these parts are ITAR primarily because they are used on a military product. There is nothing special in terms of design, manufacturing and/or performance that would cause these parts to be ITAR otherwise. The same can be said of the P-8 frame that rolls down the Renton line.)

bt

[Edited 2012-07-09 11:47:52]

Edited to remove incorrect comment. I think my memory confused the P-8 with the Wedgetail frame.  old 


[Edited 2012-07-09 12:10:19]
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roseflyer
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:48 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 18):
Remember that the first few P-8 went through the regular commercial line . . .

What? All the P-8's were produced in the 4-17 building starting in 2008 when the first one entered final assembly. The wedgetails went through normal production line, but those were built like BBJs and then converted.

[Edited 2012-07-09 11:49:08]
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kaitak744
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:27 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 15):
Will there be a total of 3 lines (2 NG & 1 MAX/P-8) or 4 (2NG, 1 NG/P-8, and one MAX)?

4 lines in the future:
1 P-8 + 2 737NG + 1 (new) 737 MAX with the 2 existing 737NG to be converted to 737MAX once NG production ramps down.

Quoting kanban (Reply 11):
The FAL building the the current 737 is in has a second bay (formerly the 757 lines) that can be converted to 2 737MAX lines. The indication is they are only activating one. the P-8 line in is a different building and although it could produce commercial 737's of either configuration, it is a much slower line.

The former 757 line is what is used as the second commercial 737NG line.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:33 pm

The Seattle Times posted an article on the Renton plant last week, including a picture of the Renton plant's floor plan: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...echnology/2018604845_boeing05.html
 
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bikerthai
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:04 pm

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 20):
4 lines in the future:
1 P-8 + 2 737NG + 1 (new) 737 MAX with the 2 existing 737NG to be converted to 737MAX once NG production ramps down.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
4 lines in the future:
1 P-8 + 2 737NG + 1 (new) 737 MAX with the 2 existing 737NG to be converted to 737MAX once NG production ramps down.

Thanks,

bt
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Gonzalo
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
The Seattle Times posted an article on the Renton plant last week

Thanks for the link. From the picture description : Boeing's plant in Renton now has two assembly lines for the workhorse 737, including the No. 1 line shown here. Boeing will make space in front of that line for a third line, slated for the new single-aisle jet, the 737 MAX. It will begin building the MAX there by 2015.
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bikerthai
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 23):

From the floor plan, it looks like the MAX line will be squeezed in between the NG Line 1 and Line 2. An the P-8 line is in the other building, which can accommodate commercial NG frames as the other lines convert to MAX lines.

bt
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par13del
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:03 pm

Quoting msp747 (Reply 3):
Is there a loophole that would allow them to add another line somewhere else?

Why would they want to go there???? If a loophole exist it will be questioned, and you can rest assured that a work stoppage will take place while the courts verify the authenticity of the loophole.
The 787 backlog has to be cleared - will take years - the 777 is humming along but the 777XXXXX is in design phase, the 737-NG is humming and must continue to do so while the MAX gets up to speed, so with all that activity taking place I would say Boeing should leave well enough alone.
 
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kanban
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:48 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 19):
What? All the P-8's were produced in the 4-17 building starting in 2008 when the first one entered final assembly. The wedgetails went through normal production line, but those were built like BBJs and then converted.



4-17 is an office complex the P-8 and wing line is the the 4-20 complex (4-20 through 4-23 0r so) The P-8 was not in the 737 commercial line but-was loaded in the 4-20 straight from Wichita

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 20):
The former 757 line is what is used as the second commercial 737NG line.



My point is the 4-81 and 4-82 buildings can support 4 production lines each grinding out 1 to 1.5 a/c per 24 hr period. Yes to put in a 4th line they would need to find a new place for what we call 'wing lay-down' ..

Bikerthai... what is the rate you're receiving P-8's from Renton.. I haven't seen a P-8 delivery update on the Military forum, however I didn't think it was higher than 2 per month. Whereas the basic 737 is 1 a day or higher.
 
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:16 am

Quoting msp747 (Reply 3):
Is there a loophole that would allow them to add another line somewhere else?

There may or may not be a legal loophole; I've never seen a public statement either way. However, the spirit of the agreement was very obviously that 737 production would stay in Renton. If they try to move it, I would start the countdown to IAM labour action, and I wouldn't blame them.

Quoting msp747 (Reply 3):
I wonder if they would build a new facility in Everett or somewhere else in state, or try to expand their operation in South Carolina or another right to work state.

Not a chance of Everett; it's got all the disadvantages of Renton and none of the advantages. If you're going to move it, really move it.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 6):
Makes me wonder if they won't move the P-8 production to Kansas.

Given that they just closed Boeing Wichita, I don't see them expanding there any time soon.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 9):
The P-8 as built in renton has nothing sensitive from a military standpoint.

It depends what you mean by "sensitive". If you mean "actually secret" then you might be right. If you mean "EAR/ITAR" you're dead wrong...unfortunately, it's the latter that the DoD cares about.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 17):
Boeing hasn’t hired non-US persons in a while in Renton. Basically everyone there is a U.S. person and all the office spaces are ITAR. I’d be surprised to find too many foreign nationals working on the 737 final assembly line.

There's a difference. I'm a foreign national but also a US person. US person is not the same thing as US citizen.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 18):
Although I'm not completely sure, but I think one of them is our own A.net tdscanuck

Correct. I'm a US permanent resident (i.e. green card holder), which makes me a US person even though I'm not a citizen.

Tom.
 
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kanban
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:57 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 17):
There are places other than Kansas that could support the P-8 line. They could even build it at Boeing Field since the Thompson building which is where the 737 was originally produced is relatively vacant right now. They wouldn’t be able to put the vertical stabilizer on while in the factory, but that’s not an insurmountable problem.

Sorry, the Thompson Building has been revamped and is the P-8 outfitting center... There are no vacant FAL sized building in Seattle/Renton.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 17):
It’s actually not that diverse in Renton. Boeing hasn’t hired non-US persons in a while in Renton

Having spent most of 35 years in Renton, and working in several organizations, unless there has been a major purge there are plenty of non US citizens on the site. Maybe not in all corners. They used to wear different ID badges for easy recognition, however after the last 707 military derivative left that distinction went away. I had no citizens on my crew as late as 1999 when I left.
 
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:43 am

A coincidence that this comes right after the Airbus FALabama annoucement? I don't think so... With the current plan, Boeing is ramping up 737's slower than Airbus. Now, BFM gives Airbus additional flexibility for NEO ramp-up, and combined with the earlier EIS Airbus can fill the market sooner and faster with NEOs and eat at the 737's market share... Hence, Boeing has to counter.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Boeing could push close to 60 737 MAX a month out of Renton if they had to.

Which would more than match the Airbus potential rate of 50, and allow to catch up some of the difference in NEO vs MAX EIS dates... assuming Airbus doesn't go beyond 50.
 
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EPA001
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:39 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
P-8 production is low enough that Boeing could push close to 60 737 MAX a month out of Renton if they had to.
Quoting kanban (Reply 11):
The FAL building the the current 737 is in has a second bay (formerly the 757 lines) that can be converted to 2 737MAX lines.

Taking both quotes into account I take it that Boeing has room enough for the 3r FAL within the current main buildings? Or do they need to put up new buildings on the site to accommodate the 3rd FAL?
 
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bikerthai
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:18 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 27):

There's a difference. I'm a foreign national but also a US person. US person is not the same thing as US citizen.

Yes, green card holders are permanent US residence and are treated as citizens in terms of ITAR.

There are some foreign citizen working at Boeing but they I've only seen a few. Usually they are technical exchange staff from other companies or temporary employees during times of need.

There is another small but prominent contingency of Japanese personnel in Everett. They are the representatives of MHI, KHI and FHI who are free to roam the commercial factory floor in support of their product.

Quoting kanban (Reply 28):
Sorry, the Thompson Building has been revamped and is the P-8 outfitting center... There are no vacant FAL sized building in Seattle/Renton.

The Thompson building will be up to it's gills with P-8's once full rate production gets going. You figure 100+ frames over a 10 year period and you can get an average production rate. Although the rate will skew toward the middle of the program schedule (accounting for any delay in funding or reduction in scope).

There is room for an additional building at the Thompson site . . . but that will cost money.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 30):
Taking both quotes into account I take it that Boeing has room enough for the 3r FAL within the current main buildings? Or do they need to put up new buildings on the site to accommodate the 3rd FAL?

The Seattle Time article quoted above shows 3 FAL in one building and one in another. You have to go to the insert picture and click the arrow to go to the next photo.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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EPA001
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:59 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 31):
The Seattle Time article quoted above shows 3 FAL in one building and one in another. You have to go to the insert picture and click the arrow to go to the next photo.

Thanks. I missed that picture.  .
 
msp747
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:15 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 25):
Why would they want to go there???? If a loophole exist it will be questioned, and you can rest assured that a work stoppage will take place while the courts verify the authenticity of the loophole.
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 27):

There may or may not be a legal loophole; I've never seen a public statement either way. However, the spirit of the agreement was very obviously that 737 production would stay in Renton. If they try to move it, I would start the countdown to IAM labour action, and I wouldn't blame them.

I would never want to see 737 production leave the area, I was just thinking out loud. The whole purpose of the Charleston line was to keep things moving during labor issues, so I was wondering if Boeing would try to protect their most productive line, in case of a work stoppage. Honestly, I'd like to see them try to expand the operation in Renton. Maybe build a parking garage for employees and build another line on the rest of the old parking lot (again, thinking out loud, not even sure if it is possible).
 
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enilria
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:18 pm

Will it be in the South of France? :p

SAT question # 485:

"As Renton is to Mobile, Toulouse is to : "
 
tdscanuck
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:02 pm

Quoting msp747 (Reply 33):
The whole purpose of the Charleston line was to keep things moving during labor issues, so I was wondering if Boeing would try to protect their most productive line, in case of a work stoppage.

The whole basis for the agreement with IAM to put the 737MAX in Renton was an extension of the contract; in other words, they mitigated the risk of a work stoppage. I'm not sure IAM has ever done a wildcat strike, and certainly not in recent times. There was much cheering of this agreement (including by the stock market) as a better path; if Boeing and the IAM continue to agree to keep work in WA in return for no work stoppages, everyone will be happy.

Tom.
 
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kanban
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:12 am

Just to put the line movement in perspective, today a P-8 for India had first flight as wall as a 737 off the regular production line. The P-8 is line #4014, the commercial unit is line # 4120 so while the P-8 was going down the dedicated line , the commercial lines kicked out 106 planes. So there is no way that you will see commercial planes roll down the P-8 line.
 
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N328KF
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:54 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 36):
The P-8 is line #4014, the commercial unit is line # 4120 so while the P-8 was going down the dedicated line , the commercial lines kicked out 106 planes. So there is no way that you will see commercial planes roll down the P-8 line.

Do keep in mind that the P-8 line is not fully ramped-up yet. Furthermore, Boeing is pitching several derivatives, which would be produced off of the same line.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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kanban
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:55 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 37):
P-8 line is not fully ramped-up yet


I would suggest that if the export models are coming off the line, it's pretty well ramped up. If they add other derivatives, they will do a rate increase.. Unlike commercial there are only "x" number the government will accept each year. however as I noted above, three lines in the 4-81/82 complex can pump out 60 a month and there is room beyond that except for finding a space for wing laydown (the term covers adding struts, flaps, spoilers, leading edges, interior seal, and all the related electrical and hydraulic systems)
 
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bikerthai
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 36):
The P-8 is line #4014, the commercial unit is line # 4120 so while the P-8 was going down the dedicated line , the commercial lines kicked out 106 planes. So there is no way that you will see commercial planes roll down the P-8 line.

Do you have the number of days that #4120 took to go through the P-8 line? As I recall Boeing anticipate a 12 days flow for the standard 737 line and a 19 days flow for the P-8 line. So it's not the volume capability that will keep a commercial frame from going through the P-8 line. It's the how the extra 7 days affect the bottom line of each commercial frame.

Remember, this is BCA we are talking about. Factory space is a premium and they would be less likely to have a line sitting idle or run at the rate that a P-8 production would support without maximizing the productivity of that line.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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kanban
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:12 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 39):
Do you have the number of days that #4120 took to go through the P-8 line?


No, I just saw that they both had first flight the same day.. Granted also the the P-8 spends more time in preflight.. how much?.. no idea. The idea was to point out while the P-8 line could build non military, it probably won't unless it was operating closer to the 4-81/82 line rates.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: 737MAX Will Have Third Production Line

Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:13 pm

Even if the P-8 line can only produce airplanes at half the rate of one of the commercial lines. I would not bet that it won't see a commercial frame. Specially with all the back-log of 737.
                       
bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.

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