flythere
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Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:03 am

Cathay Pacific has just announced on Hong Kong Stock Exchange (HKEx) the purchase of 26 A350-1000, of which 16 is converted from existing A359 order and the rest are exercise of option. They are due to delivered between 2018 and 2020.

http://www.hkexnews.hk/listedco/list.../sehk/2012/0710/LTN20120710435.pdf

Seems that Airbus has turned the games on again.
 
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PM
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:10 am

Fair's fair. Cathay do seem to like the A350. It also appears that the sometimes unloved A350-1000 at least meets Cathay's needs. Airbus will be sorry that Emirates (and Qatar?) are less enamoured of it but there's no pleasing everyone.

It also seems that there is room for both the A350-1000 and 777-300ER in the same fleet. No great surprises there.
 
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EPA001
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:11 am

Quoting flythere (Thread starter):
Seems that Airbus has turned the games on again.

Which was only to be expected of a brand-new airplane. Although some out here expressed great doubts since very few new orders came in, it was always clear that with new copies becoming available in 2018/2019 that no customer will rush to buy the A350-1000.

But at some point in time you have to secure your position into getting the delivery slots you want/need for your operations. CX has realised that and goes for the most modern product available when it enters into service!  .

Congrats to CX, Airbus and RR for securing this order.  .
 
astuteman
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:14 am

Quoting PM (Reply 1):
Airbus will be sorry that Emirates (and Qatar?) are less enamoured of it but there's no pleasing everyone.

I wouldn't be too sure about that.
It's not beyond the realms of possibility that those airlines will place follow-up orders for the type....

Quoting PM (Reply 1):
It also seems that there is room for both the A350-1000 and 777-300ER in the same fleet

That's true.
however, CX could be using these as a 773ER replacement. The earliest don't arrive until 2018

Rgds
 
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:19 am

Quoting astuteman (Reply 3):
That's true.
however, CX could be using these as a 773ER replacement. The earliest don't arrive until 2018

True enough. But we'll certainly be seeing numbers of each flying side by side for several years. My guess is that the 777-300ER will be in Cathay's fleet (in high numbers) for many years to come.

(Something else for me to avoid...    Wow!    )
 
AAplat4life
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:24 am

Since Cathay is coverting 16 A359s as part of this order, I'm not finding this to be very impressive. If the A35J works out, great. If it does not, then Cathay can either find a way out or go back into the A359. This gives Cathay much more flexibility. This is just a net gain for Airbus of 10 A350 orders, and so it is no game changer at all. Now perhaps add 10 more with a few other airlines, and that will be another story. However, the airlines are clearly waiting for the updated 777. With all three engine manufacturers salavating at the chance of getting into that program, that is a sign of where the people with perhaps the most insight believe the marketing is heading.
 
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:26 am

Quoting astuteman (Reply 3):
CX could be using these as a 773ER replacement.

They very well could be replacements for the B77W.  .

Quoting PM (Reply 4):
My guess is that the 777-300ER will be in Cathay's fleet (in high numbers) for many years to come

I do not doubt that for a second. And CX would also be a logical candidate for a possible B777-9X and they remain a favorite to acquire A380's some day. Most likely if the A380-900 is launched they will select it for quite a number of their routes. That would give them quite an impressive wide-body line-up, but that is all too speculative at present.  .
 
na
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:29 am

I absolutely expect those planes to be replacing older 77Ws. Otherwise they dont make much sense. If CX would be bold and optimistic as to expansion, they would have ordered VLAs.
 
CRJ900
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:31 am

Nice to see the A350-1000 attracting some interest. With a realistic range of 7,100nm (15% less than Airbus claims), London, Johannesburg and Vancouver are within reach from Hong Kong.

If only Airbus could release a seat map on their website showing potential layouts... I like looking at those  
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flipdewaf
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:34 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 8):
With a realistic range of 7,100nm (15% less than Airbus claims)

Please elaborate.

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r2rho
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:36 am

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 5):
Since Cathay is coverting 16 A359s as part of this order, I'm not finding this to be very impressive. If the A35J works out, great. If it does not, then Cathay can either find a way out or go back into the A359.

But then, why convert in the first place? Why convert to the relatively undefined -1000 today, instead of sticking to the well-known, sweet-spot of the family -900? The option to convert the -900s to -1000s later on would have always existed, there was absolutely no need to commit today. Therefore, I think this is an important endorsement of the -1000 by CX.
 
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:39 am

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 5):
This is just a net gain for Airbus of 10 A350 orders...

Actually, it's rather more than that. As you say, Cathay could no doubt shift their order back to the -900 but, for now, they have given the -1000 a huge endorsement. Perhaps not a "game-changer" but the kind of good news Airbus have been waiting for. (And needed.)

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 5):
Now perhaps add 10 more with a few other airlines...

My guess is that we'll see that in the not too distant future. Your guess?

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 5):
With all three engine manufacturers salavating at the chance of getting into that program, that is a sign of where the people with perhaps the most insight believe the marketing is heading.

All three engine OEMs want a piece of the next 777 (though they all know that not all will). That's hardly news and it hardly constitutes a statement regarding where "the marketing is heading". Forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth but you seem to be implying that this suggests that RR, GE and PW see the new 777 'beating' the A350-1000. I see it more in terms of...

1. GE very sensibly wanting to hang onto what must by now be a cash cow,
2. PW understandably wanted to get back on a widebody,
3. RR hoping to leverage their monopoly position on the A350.

No doubt all three think they'd make money on the new 777 and I'm sure that the one or two who are chosen will do so. Just what it may say about the future of the A350 is, alas, rather more opaque.
 
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:41 am

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 5):
and so it is no game changer at all

No airplane ever is. Each new model is an evolution of the previous models.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 5):
the airlines are clearly waiting for the updated 777.

Are they? An order for 26 big twins is big by any standard and no indication that "airlines are clearly waiting for the warmed-over B777"  .

Quoting r2rho (Reply 10):
But then, why convert in the first place? Why convert to the relatively undefined -1000 today, instead of sticking to the well-known, sweet-spot of the family -900?

You are sport on. And they have done so knowing that late 2018 is the first chance they get for a free delivery slot. Which is telling a positive story imho.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 10):
Therefore, I think this is an important endorsement of the -1000 by CX.

It sure is.  
 
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:48 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 8):
Nice to see the A350-1000 attracting some interest. With a realistic range of 7,100nm (15% less than Airbus claims), London, Johannesburg and Vancouver are within reach from Hong Kong.




Is the A350-1000 capable of flying to LAX or SFO ? JFK or Toronto ? IF this plane is a "true" 77W replacement it needs to fly nonstop to the east coast of North America.
 
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:51 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
IF this plane is a "true" 77W replacement it needs to fly nonstop to the east coast of North America.

On paper it has a design range of 8,400 NM which is more then the B77W which has a design range (if I am not mistaken) of 7,900 NM. Then again, the real opponent for the A350-1000 will most likely be the B777-X series.  .

[Edited 2012-07-10 12:33:44 by srbmod]
 
kaitak
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:55 am

I would have thought that CX's first priority for the A351 would be as a (standard) 773 replacement; true, not the best use of an airraft with a 7,000nm range, but then CX has never been above intelligent misuse of acft; what's the longest route flown by CX's standard 773s? Sapporo? Denpasar, possibly BOM?

I think it's a big psychological boost for Airbus; as much as one might admire EY, CX is one of the industry's true big-hitters.
 
Burkhard
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:58 am

On a side note, it signals to me that the Chinese embargo against Airbus is over... What about emission right trade?
 
Cerecl
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:01 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 17):
On a side note, it signals to me that the Chinese embargo against Airbus is over... What about emission right trade?

CX is a Hong Kong-based British(?)-owned company, it does not require any Chinese government approval to buy aircrafts so this order says nothing about Chinese/Airbus/ETS. As far as I know the Chinese government is still fiercely opposing the ETS.
 
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:10 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 3):
CX could be using these as a 773ER replacement. The earliest don't arrive until 2018

Eventually, the A35J will replace the 77W's, but not with this order. They are only a few years old and CX is still receiving them.

Quoting na (Reply 7):
I absolutely expect those planes to be replacing older 77Ws. Otherwise they dont make much sense. If CX would be bold and optimistic as to expansion, they would have ordered VLAs.

   I expect these A35J's to replace their remaining 744s. No VLA's for CX in the near future I'm afraid, except freighters.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 6):
CX would also be a logical candidate for a possible B777-9X

I know they have expressed interest in the 777-9X, but I can't really see where it would fit in their fleet, certainly now that CX are going for the A35J in this big way. The 777-9X will only be able to compete with the A35J in 10 abreast Y, and I can't see CX going for that.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 16):
I would have thought that CX's first priority for the A351 would be as a (standard) 773 replacement

Possibly, but I think CX could very well be in the running for the 787-10X, as 773 and A333 (ex Dragonair) replacement.
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AAplat4life
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:18 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 10):
But then, why convert in the first place? Why convert to the relatively undefined -1000 today, instead of sticking to the well-known, sweet-spot of the family -900? The option to convert the -900s to -1000s later on would have always existed, there was absolutely no need to commit today. Therefore, I think this is an important endorsement of the -1000 by CX.

If the -1000 is relatively undefined today, how could this possibly be an important endorsement of it? It would make more sense to stay with the sweet spot of the A359 and not covert 16 frames to the -1000 until its design was firmed up.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 12):
Are they? An order for 26 big twins is big by any standard and no indication that "airlines are clearly waiting for the warmed-over B777"

A net order of 10 aircraft, because 16 A359s were converted. So we'll have to wait to see what other airlines do. This is really reminicent of LH's 748I order. If other airlines do not follow along with Cathay here, Airbus is going to still be struggling to find a market for the A35J juswt like Boeing is for the 748I. Remember, they both market their producdts to airlines worldwide, and no one has been biting. One major airline is not enough. The question really is where are the other airlines? For now, this was a shrewd move by Cathay to limit its risk on the A350 program.
 
na
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:27 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 19):
   I expect these A35J's to replace their remaining 744s. No VLA's for CX in the near future I'm afraid, except freighters.

You are mistaken. By the time these 26 planes are being delivered at the end of this decade, CX will certainly have less than 10 pax-744s left, if any (and those will all be 24 years and older). Unless a surprising market growth will swallow them up, those A350-1000s must largely replace early-built 77Ws and before that of cause the then old 773s.
 
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:31 pm

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 20):
A net order of 10 aircraft, because 16 A359s were converted. So we'll have to wait to see what other airlines do.

Well, CX is the first to order after the design changes and improvements. No doubt many others will follow, but you are right that we have to wait a bit longer for that to happen. But I am quite sure that many others will follow.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 19):
The 777-9X will only be able to compete with the A35J in 10 abreast Y, and I can't see CX going for that.

That is true, but in a 9-abreast configuration the airplane would most likely offer very high comfort levels for the future passengers. Any way, also here we have to wait and see how things will unfold.  
 
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:47 pm

Nice to see conservative Cathay leading the way for once.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 19):
I expect these A35J's to replace their remaining 744s


I don't see it like this. When the worlds airlines, like CX, swallowed up 744's like nobodies business, it was the one and only in its class. Looking forward to 2018-2020 and beyond, there is a wonderful variety of overlapping wide bodied transports that can cover the old 744 ground and of course ground that the 744 could not cover. The A351 has been ordered to fulfill a particular job, not because it replaces the old family car.

[Edited 2012-07-10 12:34:09 by srbmod]
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:03 pm

Glad to see a high quality airline ordering a high quality product!

Quoting PM (Reply 11):
Perhaps not a "game-changer" but the kind of good news Airbus have been waiting for. (And needed.)

I was thinking more orders would come. Clearly Airbus changed the J design to get more airlines interested.

Now it puts just a tad more pressure on Boeing to define its 777X plans more clearly.

It does show that at least one airline isn't that concerned about the long lead time issue - they just swapped from the earliest A350 variant to the last.
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frigatebird
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:05 pm

Quoting na (Reply 21):
You are mistaken. By the time these 26 planes are being delivered at the end of this decade, CX will certainly have less than 10 pax-744s left, if any (and those will all be 24 years and older).

ok, thank you for this information. But don't forget CX 's net order for the A350 will be 10 - so these could replace those last remaining 744s. The other 16 A35J's were initially ordered as A359's, so these already had been allocated for a certain role - but now in a larger capacity form.

It's just that I find it hard to believe CX will replace planes they've declared the backbone of their fleet - and seem to be very pleased with it it - already after 11 years (first one delivered 2007)!

I wonder what Zeke has to say about this  
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sweair
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:09 pm

I think this is only the start for a very bright future in the big twin market Airbus will dominate. I can see a 60/40 market share for Airbus here. 25% more efficient is a lot! Maybe even a 70/30 market share is possible.
 
na
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:15 pm

This is a very serious blow for the not-yet decided 777X-Program and a hint, that Boeing should think again about wether a totally new aircraft in 2025 wouldnt be better than a cooked-over 777 in 2020.
 
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting na (Reply 28):
This is a very serious blow for the not-yet decided 777X-Program

Very serious blow? What is your thinking behind such a statement?
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na
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:22 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 29):
Very serious blow? What is your thinking behind such a statement?

I think I said that. Let me add I always said that Airbus will likely counter a possible 777X with a A350 upgrade to be expected by 2025 the latest that will render the 777 obsolete.
 
MAV88
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:29 pm

Hopefully some of these make their way down to Miami and CX will start non-stop daily HKG-MIA flights.
 
ScottB
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:34 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 10):
why convert in the first place? Why convert to the relatively undefined -1000 today, instead of sticking to the well-known, sweet-spot of the family -900? The option to convert the -900s to -1000s later on would have always existed, there was absolutely no need to commit today. Therefore, I think this is an important endorsement of the -1000 by CX.

Why convert now? Perhaps Airbus gave them an attractive incentive to convert the orders to get some market momentum behind the variant. Perhaps CX approached Airbus about delaying their -900 orders and this was a way to make the delay look like it's not a delay, especially if they have the right to convert the orders back to the -900 variant.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
It does show that at least one airline isn't that concerned about the long lead time issue - they just swapped from the earliest A350 variant to the last.

Or it may be a move to delay new aircraft coming in if they are choosing to take a more conservative approach in the short term. With the A35J's coming at the end of the decade, they may simply choose to replace 773's & 744's exiting the fleet.
 
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:08 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 25):
I wonder what Zeke has to say about this  

He could even end up flying the A350-1000 as pilot or co-pilot.   I am sure he is quite pleased with this decision.  .
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:41 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 12):
An order for 26 big twins is big by any standard and no indication that "airlines are clearly waiting for the warmed-over B777"

It is not an order for 26 big twins. It is an order for 10 of them, 16 are conversions of already exsisting orders of big twins. Why is the proposed B-777X projects no religated to a 'warmed over' airplane that the airlines have indicated they are not interested in? There are several airlines involved in the design of the B-777-8X/-9X, inputting just what they want and need in the updated B-777.

So why is it the B-777 gets 'warmed over' yet the A-330 MTOW increase to 240 tonnes, announced this week, is an upgrade?

Quoting astuteman (Reply 3):
It's not beyond the realms of possibility that those airlines will place follow-up orders for the type....

It is also not beyond the realm of possibilities that EK converts all 20 of its A-350-10s to A-359s, QR converts all 20 of its -1000s to -8s and/or -9s, EY cancels its 12 -1000, or converts them to another model, or OZ converts their 10 to -8s and/or -9s. In fact, OZ may not need the A-3510 at all now that they have ordered the A-388.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 12):
they have done so knowing that late 2018 is the first chance they get for a free delivery slot.

Actually, I don't think their slots on the production line has changed at all. IIRC, all A-350s will be FAL on the same line, all CX did was change the model of their last 16 A-359s to the A-3510 and added another 10 production slots at the end of the current line. The A-350, of all models have now sold about 555 airplanes, up from about 545 yesterday.
 
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:01 pm

Personally, I think a sizable chunk of these A350-1000s (up to half of them) would be used for intra-Asia regional routes to replace 773As and 744s that both need retiring by end of this decade (esp the 744s), while the A350-900s would be used on Aus/NZ, Middle East, and thinner Euro routes like FCO or AMS.

CX's 77Ws are really new, so only some of the late arriving ones would start replacing 77Ws, if not by the 777-9X
 
astuteman
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:21 pm

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 5):
I'm not finding this to be very impressive. If the A35J works out, great. If it does not, then Cathay can either find a way out or go back into the A359. This gives Cathay much more flexibility. This is just a net gain for Airbus of 10 A350 orders, and so it is no game changer at all

You don't see the significance of this announcement?

Quoting PM (Reply 11):
Cathay could no doubt shift their order back to the -900 but, for now, they have given the -1000 a huge endorsement.

correct.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 20):
If the -1000 is relatively undefined today, how could this possibly be an important endorsement of it?

Answering your own question in the same sentence certainly saves us a lot of trouble....  
Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
It does show that at least one airline isn't that concerned about the long lead time issue - they just swapped from the earliest A350 variant to the last.

Like the lead-time length the 787 enjoys over the A330, I'd suggest that this lead time also demonstrates the inherent desirability of the product to the airline too.
They could get additional 777's (which they operate in large numbers) a lot sooner.

Quoting na (Reply 28):
This is a very serious blow for the not-yet decided 777X-Program

Don't get that, to be honest. If anything it's a gee-up ..

Quoting ScottB (Reply 32):
Perhaps Airbus gave them an attractive incentive to convert the orders to get some market momentum behind the variant. Perhaps CX approached Airbus about delaying their -900 orders and this was a way to make the delay look like it's not a delay

didn't see this one coming....   

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 34):
It is also not beyond the realm of possibilities that EK converts all 20 of its A-350-10s to A-359s, QR converts all 20 of its -1000s to -8s and/or -9s, EY cancels its 12 -1000, or converts them to another model

The drift in body language from "we don't like this change", to "we'll give it time" to "this will be a great aircraft" tends to suggest my outcome is a tad more likely than yours...
Time will tell  
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 34):
I don't think their slots on the production line has changed at all.

They did. Not by a massive amount. But the first delivery has gone back 2 years...

Rgds
 
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Stitch
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 25):
But don't forget CX 's net order for the A350 will be 10 - so these could replace those last remaining 744s. The other 16 A35J's were initially ordered as A359's, so these already had been allocated for a certain role - but now in a larger capacity form.

CX has enough 777-300ERs on order to replace the remaining 747-400 fleet and they will all arrive before the first A350-1000.

My personal WAG is that these 26 are to replace CX's 12 777-300s first and then a mix of early 777-300ER replacement and expansion.
 
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Polot
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 36):
They did. Not by a massive amount. But the first delivery has gone back 2 years...

According to CX's press release when they first ordered the A359 deliveries were set to begin in 2016 and stretch 3 years (so until 2019). It is possible that the 16 that CX converted were the A359s that were suppose to be delivered between 2018-2019, so any delay to CX is probably minimal.

[Edited 2012-07-10 12:31:53 by srbmod]
 
roseflyer
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 3):
Quoting PM (Reply 1):
It also seems that there is room for both the A350-1000 and 777-300ER in the same fleet

That's true.
however, CX could be using these as a 773ER replacement. The earliest don't arrive until 2018

I think with three of the airlines that have ordered the A350-1000 also having 77Ws on order, we will see airlines operating both side by side.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 6):
Quoting astuteman (Reply 3):
CX could be using these as a 773ER replacement.

They very well could be replacements for the B77W. .

I really don’t understand why people are thinking that these planes are intended to replace 77Ws. The 77W fleet is the newest in the CX fleet with all being less than 5 years old.

CX however has quite a few airplanes a decade or more older including early build A330s and the first built 777, so unlike some airlines, CX keeps its planes for 20 years. I’d expect the A350s to be replacing 747s, A340s, 777-200s and 777-300s. The 77W fleet is only going to grow as they have about 20 still on order. In 10 years, I’d expect the CX fleet to be A330s, A350s and 77Ws unless they order a VLA.
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JerseyFlyer
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting poLOT (Reply 39):
CX still has over 20 77Ws on order,

...and a number of A333s still to arrive - they ordered 15 not so long ago.
 
kaitak
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:54 pm

Has CX indicated likely pax numbers for either the A350-900/1000? With so many different configs around (from four class intercontinental to two class regional), there's going to be quite a range; on the 77W, I believe the four class config is less than 300 (don't have figures to hand) and with Y+ likely to grow in popularity, this cabin is likely to increase, leading to an even less dense config overall. I wonder if the declining numbers of seats with ever more diverse and luxurious cabins makes a larger aircraft more necessary.

Do we even know if CX is going to go 9 abreast in Y on the A350?
 
na
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:55 pm

Quoting poLOT (Reply 39):
They are still going to be around for a long time, and I'm sure that CX will eventually look into additional A350-1000s, any improved A350 and the 777X when the time comes to replace them. But that is still well into the next decade.

Maybe, but why should they buy 777X when they have the A350-1000? Those two types are too similar. If they want an "alternative" then a 748I or A380 makes much more sense.

Quoting poLOT (Reply 39):
CX still has over 20 77Ws on order, and they don't turn over their fleet that fast.


How many of the 77Ws CX has or will be delivered to them are leased and will be operated under a 10 or 12 year contract?
If the A350 proves to be a game-changer, CX might drop them earlier than normally to be expected, which means, an exchange in the timeframe of A350 deliveries is not at all unlikely. They have dropped the A342 and A346 prematurely when they got better planes shortly afterwards, that scenario could be repeated with the A350-1000 vs 77W.
 
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Polot
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:00 pm

Quoting na (Reply 43):
Maybe, but why should they buy 777X when they have the A350-1000? Those two types are too similar. If they want an "alternative" then a 748I or A380 makes much more sense.

We don't know enough about the 777X to say. But you are a fool if you think that CX will not consider it when the time comes.

Quoting na (Reply 43):
If the A350 proves to be a game-changer, CX might drop them earlier than normally to be expected, which means, an exchange in the timeframe of A350 deliveries is not at all unlikely. They have dropped the A342 and A346 prematurely when they got better planes shortly afterwards, that scenario could be repeated with the A350-1000 vs 77W.

CX had a whopping 4 A342s and 3 A346s. It was much easier to quickly dump those then it will be to dump 50 77Ws, especially if CX wants to continue growing.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:03 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 42):
Has CX indicated likely pax numbers for either the A350-900/1000?

I have been informed that in four classes with the new product, the 777-300ER (77H) will seat 275 and the A350-1000 will seat 273.
 
astuteman
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:03 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 40):
I think with three of the airlines that have ordered the A350-1000 also having 77Ws on order, we will see airlines operating both side by side

For a goodly while, certainly. Eventually I think we'll see some airlines operating the 777X and A350-1000 side by side

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 40):
CX keeps its planes for 20 years. I’d expect the A350s to be replacing 747s, A340s, 777-200s and 777-300s.

In which case this makes sense. Their oldest 773ER's will only be 11 years old when the first A350-1000's arrive

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sweair
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:11 pm

Quoting na (Reply 43):
They have dropped the A342 and A346 prematurely when they got better planes shortly afterwards, that scenario could be repeated with the A350-1000 vs 77W.

I think so too, if they see a 25% gain from the A350-1000 they will drop their 77Ws fast, the irony would be if the 77W becomes the future 346..  

I dont think the 777-X has nothing on the A350-1000 other than shorter backlog and production limits. Like with the NB market B dropped the ball once again.
 
na
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:13 pm

Quoting poLOT (Reply 44):
CX had a whopping 4 A342s and 3 A346s. It was much easier to quickly dump those then it will be to dump 50 77Ws, especially if CX wants to continue growing.

Who says they will dump 50 77Ws quickly? I expect a part of those 77Ws to be replaced by thes A350s. Anything else makes less sense than that.

Quoting poLOT (Reply 44):
We don't know enough about the 777X to say. But you are a fool if you think that CX will not consider it when the time comes.

I certainly do not think they´ll not look at the 77X, but I expect its either this or that in the end. To operate a 748I alongside A380s should make much more sense than 77X alongside A350-1000.
 
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neutrino
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:16 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 34):
So why is it the B-777 gets 'warmed over' yet the A-330 MTOW increase to 240 tonnes, announced this week, is an upgrade?

Maybe "warmed over" is placed higher in esteem than "upgrade", considering that the 777X will incoporate much much more changes?  
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
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EPA001
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 47):
I dont think the 777-X has nothing on the A350-1000 other than shorter backlog and production limits. Like with the NB market B dropped the ball once again.

I would not even dare to make statements like that on Boeing, even though I slightly favor Airbus. I believe the B777-X, if Boeing is ready to offer it, will be a very fierce competitor to the A350, though by going a bit bigger in design it is not always a 1:1 comparison.

And the MAX is picking up orders quite rapidly too. By no means will the MAX be a failure or a case where Boeing dropped the ball.

But please, let us keep the discussion here about the A350-1000 which were ordered by CX in quite an impressive number, namely 26 copies.  .
 
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Stitch
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 47):
I think so too, if they see a 25% gain from the A350-1000 they will drop their 77Ws fast, the irony would be if the 77W becomes the future 346.   

CX held onto their A340-600s for a fair bit (though they were leased) even as they ordered significant amounts of 777-300ERs. And having ordered 14 more 777-300ERs last year doesn't strike me as something an airline that was about to rapidly phase out their fleet of them would do.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000

Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:30 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 1):
It also appears that the sometimes unloved A350-1000 at least meets Cathay's needs.

We have been looking for a large aircraft to fly regionally to replace the 773. It will be interesting to see whether this order is it. Some airlines may be complaining about the performance of the 350-1000 but perhaps CX doesn't need range. CX has always had a fleet of planes that carry a lot of people regionally. With the 773s beginning to age, a replacement is needed and the 77W is not it. In the current configs, it carres roughly 80-90 pax less than the 773, and weighs more too. CX have always purposely "misused" their longhaul aircraft on shorthaul network apart from the 333s, 772s and 773s. Purely using a heavier, lesser capacity long haul plane for regional is not a solution.

I am baffled at the suggestion the 77W would leave the fleet in the coming future....why? We have 20 odd 744s to replace, 18 regional 777s, some 11 A343s and some older 333s which will all need replacing this decade. Thats 50+ planes needed purely to replace these. That accounts for no growth in airframe numbers. Even though CX often boast about having now 100+ planes on order, most of them will be for replacements and not expansion. More planes are needed assuming the flight crews can be recruited to match.

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