macc
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VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:06 pm

according to derstandard.at the positive result of the environmental impact study will be released this week. After apparently the largest mediation process in europe VIE gets green light for building the 3rd runway.

Given the current struggle of OS and the economic environment I wonder if we will see the begin of construction anytime soon. 3 runways seem a lot of capacitiy for a small airport like Vienna.
I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
 
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lightsaber
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RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:14 pm

Quoting macc (Thread starter):
After apparently the largest mediation process in europe VIE gets green light for building the 3rd runway.

What?!? Europe is actually expanding an existing airport?    Good to hear!

Quoting macc (Thread starter):
3 runways seem a lot of capacitiy for a small airport like Vienna.

I wonder if this is how LH will handle the lack of the 3rd runway at MUC.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
CPH-R
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RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:37 pm

Peculiar looking layout they've chosen - especially extending some taxiway east of runway 16/34. I suppose the intention is for parallel ops on runway 11/29 and the new runway?
 
JU068
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RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:43 pm

Could it be that Lufthansa has some plans to shift capacity to Vienna if it is restricted in its home market? Now that most of the Austrian Airlines' flights are operated by Tyrolean things should be better.
 
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Aquila3
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RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:55 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 1):
What?!? Europe is actually expanding an existing airport? Good to hear!


Don't sing too early. Vienna 22 is building a new chic quarter from scratch (called somehow Seestadt Aspern) on the site of the old airport of the '50ies. It is a mega project, with nice apartments in the green, schools, railways, even an artificial lake to keep it "cool".
Works are already advanced, with the railway line already almost built. Deliveries of the houses will start from 2014 to 2025. Unfortunately that place is now under the actual approach line from N-W. I see a lot of influent NIMBYs protesting in due time.... Compared to that MUC is built in the desert. Here we are speaking of Wien 22, the largest and more populated district of the city, growing every day since the railways U1 and U2 are getting more east.
On the real utility of the 3 rd rwy it will depend a lot on what LH really wants to do of AUA. Sure there is the potential to grow as a sort of hub for the east Europe, but I am not sure that that will ever happen.
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Aquila3
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RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:01 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 3):
Now that most of the Austrian Airlines' flights are operated by Tyrolean

Does somebody know at what point is this saga? It looks to me that ALL the AUA flights are now "operated by Tyrolean"
At least in my last four flights their A321 where. But no change in the livery or in the material, nor in the average (for *A) service.
chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
 
macc
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RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:51 pm

on another news site (orf.at) they say it can take until 2015 for the final ruling, as its expected that oponents of the 3rd runway will file complaints against the positive decision.
I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
 
JU068
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RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:14 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 5):

Actually from what I could see their long-haul flights are also operated by Tyrolean.
 
LOWS
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RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 5):

Does somebody know at what point is this saga? It looks to me that ALL the AUA flights are now "operated by Tyrolean"
At least in my last four flights their A321 where. But no change in the livery or in the material, nor in the average (for *A) service.
Quoting ju068 (Reply 7):
Actually from what I could see their long-haul flights are also operated by Tyrolean.

All OS flights are now operated by Tyrolean. However, they remain coded with OS and not VO.

At some point in this slow motion drama, I assume Tyrolean will disappear and become a „new“ Austrian.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:06 pm

A parallel runway at VIE is needed. Even though both runways do not intersect, it is nowhere near as efficient as two parallel runways.

The airport handled 246,157 movements in 2011. With that kind of traffic, having parallel runways makes a huge difference and reduces congestion during peak hours.

YYC is sort of in the same situation, handling 235,000 movements, no parallel, which creates problems, even though it has 3 crossing runways.

Very few airports in the world with greater than 240,000 movements dont have a parallel. LGW and LGA are the only ones that comes to mind, and i'm sure even they wish they had a proper parallel runway.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-07-10 10:07:34]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
AustrianZRH
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RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 9):
Very few airports in the world with greater than 240,000 movements dont have a parallel. LGW and LGA are the only ones that comes to mind, and i'm sure even they wish they had a proper parallel runway.

ZRH, and there's almost nothing ATC would like better than parallel runways...
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
r2rho
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RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:18 am

As with any new runway project in Europe, I'll believe it when I see the bulldozers. Getting a green light on environmental impact is a good first step. But just a first step. Now come the protest filings, the politics, etc.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 9):
The airport handled 246,157 movements in 2011. With that kind of traffic, having parallel runways makes a huge difference and reduces congestion during peak hours.

That number of movements definitely justifies the new runway. And effectively, VIE would still operate most of the time with 2 active runways (the parallel ones), but with 90ish movements/hour instead of the current 72. The only situation I see where the 3 could operate at a time is with take-offs towards the West and landings on the cross rwy - does anyone know if such a configuration ever happens at VIE? What are the typical ops there like?

And as for future potential, it is certainly there (Eastern Europe is still in its relative infancy in terms of air travel development); it will strongly depend on what LH plans to do with OS... and with MUC, now that the 3rd rwy there has been rejected (at least in the short term).

Interesting layout maps here:
http://drittepiste.viennaairport.com...=1305761255065&reserve-mode=active

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 2):
Peculiar looking layout they've chosen - especially extending some taxiway east of runway 16/34.

That strange taxiway extension (coming in a 2nd phase after the 3rd rwy) would allow taxiing to/from the 3rd runway without interfering on current 11/29 ops. Quite a detour, but may be needed in a later phase when both rwys become busy enough. And the layout is perfect for a hypothetical midfield terminal complex, should it one day be needed.
 
PanHAM
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RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:25 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 5):
At least in my last four flights their A321 where. But no change in the livery or in the material, nor in the average (for *A) service.

...the bad news for you is, it is not Alto Adige.....


 
Quoting r2rho (Reply 11):
As with any new runway project in Europe, I'll believe it when I see the bulldozers. Getting a green light on environmental impact is a good first step. But just a first step. Now come the protest filings, the politics, etc.

Politics in VIE are a bit different than in FRA or BER or mUC, but I agree with you, the third runway is in the distant future.

Bit off topic, but new infrastructure projects in the saturated "Western World" needs a kick in the ..s, otherwise we will be the new third world in a couple of years.

The new issue of tarins magazine features the transcon railroad, at Union Pacific's 150th birthday. They have an excellent synopsis showing how long it would take to build the transcon now.


Guess what, if started in 2012 it would be finally finished in 2069.


Something needs to be changed and it better be quick.



.
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Semaex
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RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:49 am

I can't believe I overlooked this topic last week! Old thread, but let's keep it updated, after all VIE isn't just some provincial aerodrome, and a new runway realization in central Europe isn't too usual anymore.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 1):
I wonder if this is how LH will handle the lack of the 3rd runway at MUC.

I'm pretty sure VIE will get traffic from MUC, whether the new runway (at VIE) gets build or not. MUC is already at its limits in peak times, VIE isn't yet. Besides, C.Franz specifically stated that VIE is a good diversion for MUC traffic, after the runway at MUC got chopped. I'm sure it wasn't just threat rethorics, it's very realistic.

I don't know if there is a seperate thread in the forum right now, but just recently VIE opened its new Terminal, former "Skylink", now renamed "Austrian Star Alliance Terminal". It's a brand new space for OS and its affiliates to expand, and I wouldn't be surprised if LH takes the opportunity to secure its space in the brand new building. It's an attractive place, miles better than the old terminal.

Quoting macc (Thread starter):
3 runways seem a lot of capacitiy for a small airport like Vienna.

Actually I believe the masterplan is to make VIE a two-parallel-runway layout, and close the N/S runway in due time.

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 10):
ZRH, and there's almost nothing ATC would like better than parallel runways...

I thought ZRH is quite happy with their three runway layout. It's almost perfect for every kind of wind condition and thus spacing. They use seperate runways for take-off and landing, and most often (depending on the wind) the traffic flow doesn't intercept.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
macc
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RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:11 am

Quoting Semaex (Reply 13):
Actually I believe the masterplan is to make VIE a two-parallel-runway layout, and close the N/S runway in due time.

Wont happen! Why should they??

Quoting Semaex (Reply 13):
don't know if there is a seperate thread in the forum right now, but just recently VIE opened its new Terminal, former "Skylink", now renamed "Austrian Star Alliance Terminal". It's a brand new space for OS and its affiliates to expand, and I wouldn't be surprised if LH takes the opportunity to secure its space in the brand new building. It's an attractive place, miles better than the old terminal.

As nice at it looks from outside, they made some serious blunders with that project. I will never understand what they were thinking in relocating the train station to the far end of that terminal. If you are flying out of the old place, now you have to walk really long time. And there are lots of other troubles, like too narrow passages, not working emergency exits etc...
I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
 
kiwiandrew

RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:15 am

Quoting macc (Reply 14):
And there are lots of other troubles, like too narrow passages, not working emergency exits etc...

Really? That sounds very bad.
 
PanHAM
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RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:16 am

Whichever way you look at it, if VIE gets that third runway realised before they get the3rd in Munich , it will be a big boost for VIE.

But there will be a lot of obstacles still to overcome. the good thing is, there is competition between the 2 and competition is always good. Bavaria has not given up the project either , both locations are equally good, attractive cities behind, the right traffic mix.

Will be interesting to watch.
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Thenoflyzone
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RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:35 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 13):
They use seperate runways for take-off and landing, and most often (depending on the wind) the traffic flow doesn't intercept.

Up until recently, LHR also used its two runways separately, i.e one for takeoff, one for landing, limiting the numer of aircraft movements to 480,000. They have now began trials to use the runways in mixed mode, i.e arrivals and departures on both runways at the same time, and this increases the capacity of the airport instantaneously to 520,000 movements/year.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but ZRH uses mostly one runway for arrivals, meaning the airport capacity cannot be greater than 40-45 arrivals/hour. Had they had parallel runways, they could potentialy increase that figure to 60-65 an hour, maybe even more, if the runways are far enough from each other.

Might not make a difference now, but in a few years, that extra 20-25 aircraft capacity will be needed.

All of this to say that if you have two or more runways at an airport, and you want to squeeze the most movements/hour out of all that asphalt, the best scenario is to have at least two of them parallel.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2012-07-17 12:38:20]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
LOWS
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RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:26 am

Quoting Semaex (Reply 13):
I don't know if there is a seperate thread in the forum right now, but just recently VIE opened its new Terminal, former "Skylink", now renamed "Austrian Star Alliance Terminal". It's a brand new space for OS and its affiliates to expand, and I wouldn't be surprised if LH takes the opportunity to secure its space in the brand new building. It's an attractive place, miles better than the old terminal.

I haven't been through it yet, but I have heard that during peak hours it is already full.
 
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Semaex
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RE: VIE Gets Green Light For 3rd Runway

Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:45 am

Quoting LOWS (Reply 18):
I haven't been through it yet, but I have heard that during peak hours it is already full.

There was an article in the latest AERO Intl about the new terminal, and they also mention that there are still child deseases running through the building, that is why they are not handling it with full operational capacity for the moment, hence the congestion at peak hours.
I'm sure those things will get solved in due time and then the new terminal can shine from the inside as it does from the outside. OS, LH and Star Alliance could've not made a bigger jump towards Eastern Europe expansion than with this building.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.

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