Cush
Topic Author
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:42 am

Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:20 pm

I saw this article on MSN and was wondering what airline this was? Why would the flight crew over-react and begin to cry (even after landing) if the smoke was non-threatning? Here is a link: http://now.msn.com/now/0709-crying-air-hostess-panic

[Edited 2012-07-11 15:25:33 by srbmod]
Fly me to the moon let me play among the stars.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting Cush (Thread starter):
Why would the flight crew over-react and begin to cry (even after landing) if the smoke was non-threatning?

If you've never been in a situation like that, I don't think you can criticize the cabin crew for reacting a certain way. Training is one thing, having it actually happen to you (and having the possibility of things actually going wrong) is something else entirely.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
mikect
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 4:27 pm

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:56 pm

Seems like this is the flight.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=452521ed&opt=0

A Malmo Avro. The comments talk about Swedish media reporting the alleged panic.

By the way, I know that was just some "trending now" thing on MSN, but what kind of article is that? They don't state anything of value. Love the picture at the top also.
 
sandrozrh
Posts: 2420
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:19 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 2):
Thats why they shouldn't be allowed to fly again. Bunch of wimps and nothing else.

Yeah, they should take it like a man!  
 
musapapaya
Posts: 990
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:02 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:22 pm

Well, a correction, they are not flight crew, they are cabin crew, i thought flight crew are those in the flight deck (pilots)?
Lufthansa Group of Airlines
 
tonystan
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:29 pm

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 2):
Thats why they shouldn't be allowed to fly again. Bunch of wimps and nothing else.

Well youre a heartless and so and so arent you?
Why shouldnt they cry? Crew are not superhuman, if we were we could demand a lot more salary!
Have you ever been in shock at an event? Did you feel the slightest bit of emotion on 911? Have you ever witnessed something that effected you regardless of whether it was serious or not? If your answer to any of those is "NO" then I can only assume you live a very sheltered life and ifyou havent then you clearly lack any sort of empathy for your common man/woman.

These things happen, no one knows how they are going to react to a situation. Iv been in some scenarios which at first seemed terrifying, I didnt cry but I was certainly struggling inside and even after the events turned to nothing I never felt right until after I was off the aircraft. But I nor any of my family or friends would consider me a wimp!

Wimps hide behind computer screens and anonymous psuedonyms and slate people online!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
330lover
Posts: 495
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:11 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 5):
Quoting dcaviation (Reply 2):
Thats why they shouldn't be allowed to fly again. Bunch of wimps and nothing else.
Quoting tonystan (Reply 5):
Wimps hide behind computer screens and anonymous psuedonyms and slate people online!


Bang !!

Couldn't say it better. We're only human. Except tonystan off course...

[Edited 2012-07-10 12:18:55]
Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
 
tonystan
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting 330lover (Reply 6):
Couldn't say it better. We're only human. Except tonystan off course...

Im not Tonystan...Im BATMAN!!!!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3964
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 4):
Well, a correction, they are not flight crew, they are cabin crew, i thought flight crew are those in the flight deck (pilots)?

IDK about overseas but "flight crew" is usually just the general term for everyone (pilots/flight attendants). When being specific it's flight deck crew and cabin crew or in DL's case, as they like to say, in-flight crew.

Maybe it varies by region..
What gets measured gets done.
 
CM
Posts: 623
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:17 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting Cush (Thread starter):
Why would the flight crew over-react and begin to cry (even after landing) if the smoke was non-threatning?

Crying after an event is truly a non-issue.

To answer your question of "why", crying is a very complex human behavior that can result from any number of emotions. People will cry as a result of sorrow, fear, relief, joy, pain, etc. Science has established there is a neural connection between the lacrimal gland (makes tears) and the portions of the brain where emotions reside. This is why crying can result from any strong emotion.

n this case, it is likely the crying was unrelated to fear or some perceived weakness, as your comment could imply. I suspect it was related to relief, which is often the case after a dangerous event.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 4941
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:14 pm

Flight Attendants often are in an "in-between" spot with regard to emergencies.

They don't know as much as the pilots, so they don't have the "luxury" of knowing its going to be okay ... but, they know more than the passengers, who often are oblivious until the event is over! In other words, they know it's serious, but not how serious, and what can happen. Human nature will always imagine the worst.

Combine that with the moral obligation to maintain a brave front, and remain calm in front of the passengers, and it can be very stressful. Often the result of stress is crying.

I had an incident a few years ago where we had an engine failure on take-off out of YUL, RWY 28. We were going to YYZ, full load of passengers and two non-rev F/A's on the flight deck jump seats. It was a text book simulator exercise, where we did a large circuit and landed on 24R about 15 minutes later, with one still shut down.

The two F/A's on the flight deck jump seats kept commenting on how calmly such a serious emergency is handled. When we eventually got to the gate, they thanked us and left. Then I met with the 7 F/A's in the back. It is my airline policy that after such an emergency and after the passengers leave, the cockpit and cabin crew sit down in the J cabin and talk about it.

We wont let groomers, maintenance, sales ... anyone ... on the aircraft until we have talked. In this instance, 3 of the F/A's started crying. But ... that is why we have this talk, it is vital that they know what happened, and what could have happened and ... 99% of the time, it is far less severe than they imagined.

They said, they worried about their spouses, their kids, their mortgage payment, etc. and what would happen if they didn't make it back on the ground.

You see, we the pilots were fine, the jump-seating F/A's were fine, we knew it was going to be okay, the working F/A's do NOT know its going to be okay. Very stressful!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
bellancacf
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 12:51 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:44 am

re longhauler @ 10: That's a wonderful story and, it seems to me, an excellent policy. Thanks for the good instructions on how to handle that situation the _right_ way.
 
dcaviation
Posts: 242
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:26 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:54 am

Quoting tonystan (Reply 5):
Well youre a heartless and so and so arent you?
Why shouldnt they cry? Crew are not superhuman, if we were we could demand a lot more salary!
Have you ever been in shock at an event? Did you feel the slightest bit of emotion on 911? Have you ever witnessed something that effected you regardless of whether it was serious or not? If your answer to any of those is "NO" then I can only assume you live a very sheltered life and ifyou havent then you clearly lack any sort of empathy for your common man/woman.

These things happen, no one knows how they are going to react to a situation. Iv been in some scenarios which at first seemed terrifying, I didnt cry but I was certainly struggling inside and even after the events turned to nothing I never felt right until after I was off the aircraft. But I nor any of my family or friends would consider me a wimp!

Wimps hide behind computer screens and anonymous psuedonyms and slate people online!

Really? You are bringing 9/11 card on the table? Looking for sympathy from other members because you bring 9/11? I thought that cabin crews only job on board is to make sure that passengers are safe during emergencies. If they can't handle it why should they stay employed as FA?
Aren't they upset when people call them stewardesses or flight attendants? Now they want to be called Safety Professionals. Whats up with that? 9/11?

[Edited 2012-07-10 18:55:24]
 
fiscal
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:47 pm

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:11 am

I would only worry if the pilot started crying while on approach...
 
loalq
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:24 pm

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:19 am

I have seen a video of a LH flight bound for China where they had to shutdown one engine of an A340 and return to base. From the cockpit, you can see how calmly and professionally the situation is handled, but as the captain pick-up the mic to inform passengers about what's happening, you can imagine what goes through the passengers mind and the level of stress that it probably raises among them. For the captain it seems like just another day at the office (and it is), but for the passengers, not the same thing! But still, very interesting video to watch.
"...this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped."
 
flymia
Posts: 6806
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:49 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
If you've never been in a situation like that, I don't think you can criticize the cabin crew for reacting a certain way. Training is one thing, having it actually happen to you (and having the possibility of things actually going wrong) is something else entirely.


They are trained professionals for emergencies. They need to act like it and keep a calm and professional demeanor at least to a certain extent. I am not talking about the wing falling off here. Crying during the emergency is not the way a cabin crew should act. They are the ones after the pilots which should be the most calm and for the safety of the aircraft have to remain calm.

Quoting CM (Reply 9):
I suspect it was related to relief, which is often the case after a dangerous event.


The crying started during the incident correct? I have no problem with crying after.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
In this instance, 3 of the F/A's started crying


That is a good story and there is nothing wrong with emotion after the incident. But during the emergency. Imagine if one of you starting crying while at the controls of the airplane. Imagine what the FA's in the jumpseat would have thought. Now imagine what the typical airline passenger thinks when the flight attendant the person that is suppose to be there for safety and does many flights a day starts to cry.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 5):
Why shouldnt they cry? Crew are not superhuman, if we were we could demand a lot more salary


There is nothing wrong with showing some emotion but crying in an emergency situation for someone with training is IMO not good and depending on the situation unacceptable. Not saying fire the person but more training is needed. Would you want crying from a
Doctor at the ER?
A police officer responding to a call?
Firefighter or Paramedic trying to save a person?
Pilot in the cockpit?
Of course not, so a flight attendant in an emergency should not get much more leeway.

Again nothing wrong with showing emotion after the incident, but during. I don't see how that is 100% ok.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
SuseJ772
Posts: 654
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:52 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
You see, we the pilots were fine, the jump-seating F/A's were fine, we knew it was going to be okay, the working F/A's do NOT know its going to be okay. Very stressful!

Great story. Thanks for the insight. Also explains why sometimes being an "aviation educated flyer" can add stress as well.

Quoting fiscal (Reply 13):
I would only worry if the pilot started crying while on approach...

Good point   
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
tonystan
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:14 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 15):

There is nothing wrong with showing some emotion but crying in an emergency situation for someone with training is IMO not good and depending on the situation unacceptable. Not saying fire the person but more training is needed. Would you want crying from a
Doctor at the ER?

Flymia.....Doctors are trained to deal with stressful life threatening incidents every day and they do deal with these things everyday.
Cabin crew are given the basics and trained for worst case scenarios that may never ever happen to them and affter the focus is on customer service. The training does not focus on how the individual may actually cope with an eventshould it actually happen.
Im trained to deal with hijackers, onboard fires, break up of aircraft upon landing, aviation medicine where I may be required to use a defib on someone, childbirth etc etc etc.....does it mean I actually have the confidence or even nervee to deal with any of these things? Not at all. I wont know until it actually happens on the day. I bawled my eyes out many years ago after a passenger died from a heart attack on my flight, does that make me a wimp or unprofessional?
As Iv said already, iv had some very scary situations on flights, I think I managed well but I truely crapped myself.
Just because people are trained insomething it doesnt me they are immune to the natural reflex of the human mind! My company provides "support" to staff involved in such situations and clearly this is what should happen at all other airlines.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:31 pm

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 12):
I thought that cabin crews only job on board is to make sure that passengers are safe during emergencies.

And they did that. Nobody onboard was in danger.

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 12):
If they can't handle it why should they stay employed as FA?

How does "crying" = "not handling it"? They're there to keep the passengers safe; they did that.

Quoting flymia (Reply 15):
Would you want crying from a
Doctor at the ER?

Absolutely. An ER doc who doesn't cry from time to time has no soul and shouldn't be in the profession.

Quoting flymia (Reply 15):
A police officer responding to a call?
Firefighter or Paramedic trying to save a person?

Absolutely. Crying is a physiological stress response; I don't care if they cry or not, I care if they do their job. If they deal with it by crying I don't care, as long as they deal with it.

Tom.
 
dcaviation
Posts: 242
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:26 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:26 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
How does "crying" = "not handling it"? They're there to keep the passengers safe; they did that.

Think of different outcome. What would they do if they had to evacuate crippled airplane? Would they abandon the ship in panic instead of helping stranded passengers? Thats what worries me.
Completely zero professionalism. Thats not what I expect from the 'trained' crew in case of emergency.
 
747400sp
Posts: 3833
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 7:27 pm

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:10 pm

Wowwwww!!!! May be, these people should have check to see if they had any gut's, before they applied with an airline. Really, come on now, the flight crew should always have it together, in an emergency.
 
flymia
Posts: 6806
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:31 pm

Quoting tonystan (Reply 17):
Cabin crew are given the basics and trained for worst case scenarios that may never ever happen to them and affter the focus is on customer service. The training does not focus on how the individual may actually cope with an eventshould it actually happen.


Pilots are given training for the worst that may never happen too. Would we be saying it would be ok for pilots to cry in a situation like this or really any situation? I certainly do not think it would be appropriate if a pilot started crying after smoke in the cabin or an engine failure. That pilot would seriously need to reconsider his job.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 17):
Im trained to deal with hijackers, onboard fires, break up of aircraft upon landing, aviation medicine where I may be required to use a defib on someone, childbirth etc etc etc.....does it mean I actually have the confidence or even nervee to deal with any of these things? Not at all


That seems like some fairly serious training. I would hope that the training given to you does give you the confidence to do thsoe things because if it does not, well then the training was useless wasn't it? Imagine a pilot saying something like that.

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 19):
Think of different outcome. What would they do if they had to evacuate crippled airplane? Would they abandon the ship in panic instead of helping stranded passengers? Thats what worries me.
Completely zero professionalism. Thats not what I expect from the 'trained' crew in case of emergency.


Exactly. I do not want to know what would have happened if a serious emergency happened to this crew.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
Absolutely. Crying is a physiological stress response; I don't care if they cry or not, I care if they do their job. If they deal with it by crying I don't care, as long as they deal with it.
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
Absolutely. An ER doc who doesn't cry from time to time has no soul and shouldn't be in the profession.


That last thing I want is a doctor crying while trying to perform an emergency surgery or a police officer with tears in his eyes while he is in a house with his gun drawn trying to save some children. Lets be real here, for trained professionals to cry during a situation in which they are trained to be is not acceptable. If you want to make the argument that flight attendants are not trained professionals fine. But I consider them trained professionals.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:33 pm

So if a surgeon cuts an artery by mistake, it is ok for him to lose it and start crying in the middle of the operation?!

The fact that these guys lost it just goes to prove that they were not trained well enough and they were not professional. It has nothing to do with being human or not.

My cousin used to work for JAT Yugoslav and they had special trainings on how to keep calm in situations such as these. My friend's cousin works as a flight attendant for Finnair and she told me that they are especially instructed to keep calm in situations such as these. They also receive special training.

There is one sentence I heard so many times in so many different countries: you have no reason to worry if the crew is not worrying.
So what were these passengers supposed to think if they saw their crew cry?!
 
flymia
Posts: 6806
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:12 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 22):
There is one sentence I heard so many times in so many different countries: you have no reason to worry if the crew is not worrying.
So what were these passengers supposed to think if they saw their crew cry?!

I have heard this many times also and I have also shared this advice to nervous flyers. It is not a good situation for the passengers if the cabin crew starts to freak out. Agreed with everything you said. I think if these were pilots no body would think it would be ok to react like this.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 15):
They are trained professionals for emergencies. They need to act like it and keep a calm and professional demeanor at least to a certain extent.

I agree. But training can only go so far - you don't really find out how you'd react to a certain situation until you're in it. One can only truly evaluate after the fact.

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 20):
Wowwwww!!!! May be, these people should have check to see if they had any gut's, before they applied with an airline. Really, come on now, the flight crew should always have it together, in an emergency.

And you're absolutely positive that you wouldn't have done the same in the same scenario?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
4holer
Posts: 2724
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:47 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:34 am

So...
After years of hearing flight attendants bristle at the suggestion that they are no more than airline waitstaff but instead trained professionals whose main job is to act strongly in an emergency, we now find that flight attendants don't feel that they need to be held to a professional standard in an emergency?
So you are saying.... what?


Can't have it both ways.
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:25 am

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 19):
Think of different outcome. What would they do if they had to evacuate crippled airplane? Would they abandon the ship in panic instead of helping stranded passengers? Thats what worries me.

There's no correlation between crying and panicking. I've seen people actually panic (the psychological condition, not the exaggerated tantrum that often gets the label). They aren't always crying, and vice versa.

Tom.
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:12 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
I agree. But training can only go so far - you don't really find out how you'd react to a certain situation until you're in it. One can only truly evaluate after the fact.

Yes, but you have people who handle stress and crisis better than some others. These are the people for this kind of jobs.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4632
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:00 am

I see a lot of posts on here from people that have no flippin idea what they're talking about.

Seriously... disciplining people (or even firing!) them for showing emotions that they have never had real training in?


Immature, at best.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:17 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 28):
Seriously... disciplining people (or even firing!) them for showing emotions that they have never had real training in?

Their job requires them to keep calm is situations such as these in order to avoid hysteria and panic among the passengers. What if there were some nervous fliers on board? Since this occurred on final approach, some of the passengers might have looked outside the window seeing nothing but the sea. A lot of them could have thought they were crashing into the sea.
If they can't do it then they are not adequate for such a job. I am sorry but their actions can not be justified.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4632
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:52 am

Quoting ju068 (Reply 29):
Their job requires them to keep calm is situations such as these
Quoting ju068 (Reply 29):
If they can't do it

Try that again:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 28):
they have never had real training in?
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
PVG
Posts: 460
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 7:39 pm

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:15 am

I was on an Air China 747 flight many years ago landing at the old Kai Tak airport in Hong Kong. The weather changed drastically on the approach and I could see from the window that we were going to miss the runway after that sharp turn that they used to make there. I'm not sure, but I'd estimate that we were between 500-1000 ft off the ground. So, the nose go up, gear comes up, flaps come in and we're going back around and climbing into the nastiest black clouds that you can imagine. We're bouncing around like ping pong balls and the FA, who was seated across from me and couldn't have been older than 25, starts crying and screaming hysterically to the point where we had to get her over to our seats to calm her down. Obviously, I wasn't feeling very good about the situation either (heart in stomach!), but it was certainly an experience that I'll never forget.
 
smws
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:16 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:05 am

Such behavior on aircraft shouldn't be in any way accepted. Those are the people who are supposed to resolve situations of panic on aircraft, as well as help passengers off the plane in case of evacuations. If the FA-s head isn't in the right place in such situations, there can be very dire consequences.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 28):
Immature, at best.

Calling people who expect a certain level of responsibility in such situation should never be considered immature. We rightly expect people in high risk jobs such as firemen, policemen, surgeons etc. to be able to perform to the best of their abilities in the situations their jobs require. For FA-s, this includes emergency landings, unruly passengers, bad turbulence etc. To fall into demagogy, I surely wouldn't want my fireman to start showing excess emotion when rescuing me from a burning building.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 28):
Seriously... disciplining people (or even firing!) them for showing emotions that they have never had real training in?

FA-s should get the training required to handle such situations better, no doubt about that. I do agree that disciplining/firing is a tad too much. Counselling, proper training procedures etc. must be considered first. And if it happens again and again to the same person, then maybe consider disciplinary action. My main point is that after a FA behaves in such a manner, some sort of response must come from the employer.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 26):
There's no correlation between crying and panicking.

While this might be true, the chance that a person is panicking or might be panicking and therefore unable to perform at the required level when crying is a lot higher than when he/she's not crying. Also, "crying" is still a heightened emotional state which can have a detrimental effect on people's judgement and performance.
 
PVG
Posts: 460
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 7:39 pm

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:19 am

Quoting smws (Reply 32):

all true. Except that firemen and policemen are generally well compensated with benefits. It's hard to attract people into such positions when you offering minimum wage type benefits. We need to make up our minds: Do we want everything to be cheap, or do we want important things (like safe flying, medical care, etc..) to be good? You're not going to attract people to these jobs if you don't pay well. Why would someone take the responsibility if they can work in an office down the road for the same pay and benefits?
 
smws
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:16 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:33 am

Quoting PVG (Reply 33):
Except that firemen and policemen are generally well compensated with benefits. It's hard to attract people into such positions when you offering minimum wage type benefits.

Looking at statistics for the US, in 2009 firefighters got 44k per year, flight attendants 40k. That isn't a huge gap. While firefighters do get better benefits, their job is actually a lot more dangerous (deaths, serious injury, etc.) than FA-s. In terms of risk-reward, I'd say that flight attendants are in a decent position overall compared to other service industry positions. But by no means should this mean that FA-s shouldn't continue demanding better conditions, training and benefits.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:17 pm

Quoting smws (Reply 32):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 26):
There's no correlation between crying and panicking.

While this might be true, the chance that a person is panicking or might be panicking and therefore unable to perform at the required level when crying is a lot higher than when he/she's not crying.

So we're going to indict an FA for panicking despite having zero evidence that they were panicking (and actually having considerable evidence that they weren't)?

Interesting.

Tom.
 
smws
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:16 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:25 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 35):
So we're going to indict an FA for panicking despite having zero evidence that they were panicking (and actually having considerable evidence that they weren't)?

At no point have I stated that the FA-s should be indicted for panicking. All I said was that there should be a response from the employer if something like this happened. I also tried to emphasize that firing/disciplinary action should be a last resort for repeat "offenders".

I also wasn't talking about this particular case, just in general about what we should expect of FA-s and how the employers should resolve such things (in a positive manner).

I apologize if I didn't manage to get my point across better.
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:00 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 30):

No, you are wrong, I am sorry. Smws gave a great reply:

Quoting smws (Reply 32):
Calling people who expect a certain level of responsibility in such situation should never be considered immature. We rightly expect people in high risk jobs such as firemen, policemen, surgeons etc. to be able to perform to the best of their abilities in the situations their jobs require. For FA-s, this includes emergency landings, unruly passengers, bad turbulence etc. To fall into demagogy, I surely wouldn't want my fireman to start showing excess emotion when rescuing me from a burning building.

People who can not handle stress should not be doing stressful jobs, as simple as that.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:45 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 37):
People who can not handle stress should not be doing stressful jobs, as simple as that.

Crying is a stress handling mechanism. I'm still confused how crying has turned into, variously, "panicking", "near panicking", or "not doing their job."

Is there *any* evidence that this FA was not capable of keeping the passengers safe or that they didn't do the tasks they were supposed to do?

Tom.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:53 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 27):
Yes, but you have people who handle stress and crisis better than some others. These are the people for this kind of jobs.

And how do you know a certain person handles this sort of stress well when you're interviewing them?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
PVG
Posts: 460
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 7:39 pm

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:55 pm

Quoting smws (Reply 34):

Fireman working in New York and most other large cities make much more than $44k a year, with OT, a NYC fireman can easily cross $100K. Guys who pick up garbage in NY are paid similarly.
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:56 pm

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 38):

Because crying might create the perception that there is something seriously wrong with the flight. As mentioned before a lot of people tend to look at the crew at times when they are afraid, in order to see if there is reason to worry.
Had someone done this at that moment hysteria could have built up really quickly. If the cabin crew was already crying due to the smoke, how could they pull their act together so as to calm the passengers? What explanation would they give to the passengers in order to comfort them and make them believe that the plane is safe?

I know a lot of people who would have thought they would end up falling in flames from sky if they saw the crew crying.
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:57 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):

Who said anything about interviews? People here mentioned special trainings where professionals can see if someone handles stress well or not.
 
smws
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:16 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:02 pm

Quoting PVG (Reply 40):
Fireman working in New York and most other large cities make much more than $44k a year, with OT, a NYC fireman can easily cross $100K. Guys who pick up garbage in NY are paid similarly.

And there are airlines that pay considerably more than the average 40k I stated. Also, as far as I've understood, there's generally a shortage of firemen, but not of FA-s. In fact, competition for those job positions is still quite high.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 38):
Crying is a stress handling mechanism. I'm still confused how crying has turned into, variously, "panicking", "near panicking", or "not doing their job."

Crying as a stress handling mechanism is still a heightened emotional state which can have an adverse effect on work performance. Once again, not talking about this particular case, but just generally why such things should be prevented, simply for example for risk management.

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
And how do you know a certain person handles this sort of stress well when you're interviewing them?

There are various psychological tests and methods which (naturally thanks to generalization) assist in determining whether someone might have tendencies to behave one way or another. Also, stress tolerance can be improved by training, psychological counselling etc.
 
smws
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:16 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:11 pm

I'm just going to post a comment by Simon from the AVHerald link posted above:

Quote:
According to local media reports and interviews printed there, a cabin attendant "informed" passengers of a crash landing, apparently near tears. Her state then triggered a panic among passengers. One passenger supposedly fainted, several were screaming about how they didn't want to die, etc. It sounds like quite an awful experience. And like really poor handling on behalf of the cabin crew.

I'm extremely skeptical of this report and whether these things actually happened there, but this should still be considered as a likely scenario. Something that might happen if the "coping mechanism" of the FA, while completely human, is still extremely unprofessional.

AVHerald link again: http://www.avherald.com/h?article=452521ed&opt=0
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 42):
People here mentioned special trainings where professionals can see if someone handles stress well or not.
Quoting smws (Reply 43):
There are various psychological tests and methods which (naturally thanks to generalization) assist in determining whether someone might have tendencies to behave one way or another.

Until you're actually in a situation, you really have no idea how you'd really react to it. Training and testing can only go so far, because they lack the key ingredient for which there is no substitute: the fact that something is actually happening. That's not to say that there's no place for training or testing, of course, but I'm not going to jump to criticize someone as unprofessional for not acting optimally in a situation that they are being exposed to for the first time. Their actions might have been unprofessional in that moment, but we should not assume that that is a reflection of the person.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
4holer
Posts: 2724
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:47 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:55 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 45):
That's not to say that there's no place for training or testing, of course, but I'm not going to jump to criticize someone as unprofessional for not acting optimally in a situation that they are being exposed to for the first time. Their actions might have been unprofessional in that moment, but we should not assume that that is a reflection of the person.

I can see the quote in the crash report: "While the pilot had performed quite well in the simulator during engine shutdown scenarios, upon the engine failure in actual flight, he quite understandably panicked and ran about the cockpit screaming and crying, incapacitating the other crew, and causing the aircraft to crash. It happens."
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4632
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:43 pm

Quoting smws (Reply 32):
Calling people who expect a certain level of responsibility in such situation should never be considered immature.

I never said I don't expect a certain level of responsibility. I am referring to the obviously immature posts that a single incident should be grounds for termination, especially when there is ZERO training for managing one's emotions and reactions.

Quoting smws (Reply 32):
We rightly expect people in high risk jobs such as firemen, policemen, surgeons etc

A fireman, policeman, or surgeon will never become one if they can't handle their stuff. They get months, and in the case of surgeons, years of training and evaluations to assess their physical and mental capabilities. Flight attendants? 6 weeks.

Quoting smws (Reply 32):
I do agree that disciplining/firing is a tad too much.

That was my sole point.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 37):
People who can not handle stress should not be doing stressful jobs

I agree. But telling someone who's never had any training or experience with such a situation that they are completely incapable of handling it is ignorant.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
dcaviation
Posts: 242
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:26 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:30 pm

Quoting PVG (Reply 40):
Fireman working in New York and most other large cities make much more than $44k a year, with OT, a NYC fireman can easily cross $100K. Guys who pick up garbage in NY are paid similarly.

So do grandmas flying for United and Delta. Taking one LAX-HNL round trip per month and cashing in $80K+ a year plus nice benefits.
Don't compare joke jobs with real jobs.

If they want to continue be waitresses they can find job in a restaurant. They don't have to serve drinks in the planes. Nobody held gun to their heads when they selected this job. Its their decision.

[Edited 2012-07-12 15:32:02]
 
m11stephen
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:16 am

RE: Crying Flight Crew Leads To Panic

Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:19 am

PLEASE DELETE

FILLER

FILLER

[Edited 2012-07-12 17:40:36]
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Abeam79, cuban8, flyDTW1992, JerseyFlyer, kurtverbose, NolaMD88fan, qfflyer, quic330, RWA380, teahan and 209 guests