FWAERJ
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New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:07 pm

FWA's new master plan was approved by the FAA several months ago, but it hasn't been viewable on the FWA website until now. The previous FWA master plan was from 1999, and a lot has changed at FWA and in the industry since then.

The new master plan takes into account an average growth rate of 1.3% between now and 2030 (from 261,000 enplanements last year to about 338,000 in 2030).

Some highlights of the master plan include:
-A reconfigured terminal access road
-Relocation of the Atlantic Aviation FBO to the airport's west side and demolition of the vacant Mercury hangar to allow for terminal expansion
-Demolition of lower-level Gates 1-4, with four new jetway-enabled gates replacing Gates 1-4
-Moving the rental cars to part of the current short-term parking lot and airport employee parking to the current rental car lot (with the recent addition of Dollar/Thrifty car rental to FWA, I could see this project as one of the first to start)
-An in-terminal US Customs/FIS facility (though they say that this is for WX diversions, do I anticipate flights to Mexico and the Caribbean on G4?)
-Additional post-security dining options and a relocated/expanded TSA checkpoint
-New deicing pads on either the former Atlantic or Mercury sites
-A third baggage claim carousel will be needed by 2020

Other highlights of the master plan:
-FWA is currently at 19% capacity; the current runway layout is well-suited to future growth
-They envision 70-seat RJs at FWA in 2015 (based on DL's B717/76-seater plans, I think we could see them at FWA as soon as next year)
-Also by 2015, they see additional service a la CO to CLE, but on 50/70-seat jets
-By 2020, they see additional G4 service or other mainline-type service (that prediction may have come eight years early with the PGD service)
-They don't see small turboprop service (SF340, etc.) returning to FWA (no mention was made of larger types like the Q400, which I do see in FWA's future)

Summary: http://fwairport.com/images/gallery/...0Plan%20Files/ExecSummaryLoRes.pdf
Full plan (warning: over 200 pages): http://fwairport.com/images/gallery/...0Files/MasterPlanCompleteLoRes.pdf

Thoughts? Comparisons to other airports?

[Edited 2012-07-11 15:25:18]
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
Lexy
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:19 pm

If I HAD to guess, I would say the new Customs portion is in anticipation of international diversions. I can't imagine FWA supporting non-stops to the Carribean or Mexico on its own. Otherwise, sounds like a good plan to me! I like all of the ideas honestly. It's not like there isn't room at the airport for growth because there really is!
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
FWAERJ
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:31 pm

Quoting lexy (Reply 1):
I can't imagine FWA supporting non-stops to the Carribean or Mexico on its own.

IIRC, G4 has been telling airports that they serve that have US Customs for cargo to plan for an FIS in their terminal upgrades if they can. FWA has Customs for cargo (a byproduct of the Kitty Hawk hub), so an FIS is a logical next step.

That said, I could see G4 offering once-a-week service from FWA to CUN for sure and possibly MBJ as well (plus the aforementioned WX diversions on other airlines).

[Edited 2012-07-11 15:43:12]
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
SmithAir747
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:44 am

Since FWA has been my hometown airport for most of my life, I keep abreast of FWA news.

I remember reading (and I still have a copy of) the 2003 master plan, envisioning a parallel runway 5-23, a midfield terminal between the existing and future parallel runways 5-23, and restructuring of I-469 with a new airport exit to the midfield terminal.

This new master plan (2012) expands on the near-term recommended projects (expansion of existing terminal, and other airport projects) in detail, whilst still leaving room for the planned parallel runway and midfield terminal for longer term development.

Fascinating to a former Fort Wayne local!

SmithAir747
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made... (Psalm 139:14)
 
LAXintl
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:48 am

FIS for diversions    

How to they expect to staff it? CBP is not going to be sitting around "just in-case" a plane with passengers drops in.

Even call out staffing (if there are even enough agents in the region) will be a time consuming and costly exercise.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
MaverickM11
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:04 am

FWA seats are down 40% or so in the last decade. Don't get crazy--just ask the neighbors down the road in IND.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
boilerla
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:11 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
-Also by 2015, they see additional service a la CO to CLE, but on 50/70-seat jets

Considering UA just cancelled the SBN-CLE route as of August I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
Flaps
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:22 am

This all sounds nice but seems to me to be a bit of overkill. I've only seen gates 1-4 used for RON's and the B baggage claim used once. I fly out of there twice a week. Don't get me wrong, I think FWA is a mighty fine facility and seems to me to serve the market pretty well. I think that money could be better spent elsewhere.
 
michman
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:51 am

I flew out of SBN's new terminal a few months ago. I don't know what the old was like, but the new one sure looks like serious overkill.
 
SmithAir747
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:44 am

I'm really curious what the projected midfield terminal would look like architecturally, in the era when it eventually does get built (according to the longer-term forecasts of the 2003 and 2012 FWA master plans). The master plans project that it will be placed between the existing 5-23 runway and a future parallel 5-23 runway with its own entrance from I-469.

How much of an improvement would the midfield terminal be over the existing terminal (circa 1950s, renovated several times, expanded in 1996 to 8 gates)? The current terminal is an architectural mixture of 1970s/1980s brick block (the main part, expanded from the original 1950s terminal) and the curved-roof design popular with terminals from the 1990s/2000s.

Being between the existing and future parallel 5-23 runways, how would that space influence the architecture of the projected midfield terminal? Would it be linear, or some other style? I assume it would be a complete terminal with landside and airside structures, rather than a midfield concourse (the real definition of a midfield terminal, if I remember correctly, is a concourse isolated in the middle of the field away from its mother terminal, so FWA's use of the term is a bit of a misnomer).

The architect in me is thinking up designs for it, to fit within the era projected for it to be built (sometime farther down the road than 2020, maybe 2030 or 2040). I envision something with a flowing, organic design, not blocky like today's FWA terminal.  

Or will someone (like me) eventually come up with the teleporter, thereby rendering FWA totally moot?

SmithAir747

[Edited 2012-07-11 22:48:12]
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made... (Psalm 139:14)
 
boilerla
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:52 am

Quoting michman (Reply 8):

I flew out of SBN's new terminal a few months ago. I don't know what the old was like, but the new one sure looks like serious overkill.

The old one was just a single room with 6 gates. It was pretty busy sometimes, especially during the holidays and on ND home football games. Other times it was dead. They did go a bit overkill when they did the extension, but you have to build for expansion, not expand and then build.
 
ouboy79
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:10 pm

Master plans are great, but are mainly just done to fill an FAA requirement if I remember right. Chances of them actually being executed is a whole different story.

Here in OKC they updated the master plan a couple years ago to include a 3rd (well technically 4th but 18/36 is rarely used at all) N/S parallel runway. It also wanted to extend the two existing 17/35s out more than the 9800' they are now. However, the chances for any of those things to happen aren't great, especially with 13/31 available to use as well.

Good forward thinking on FWA's part, but it is sort of mandated. Probably won't see many, if any, of these details actually constructed though.
 
FWAERJ
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting boilerla (Reply 6):

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
-Also by 2015, they see additional service a la CO to CLE, but on 50/70-seat jets

Considering UA just cancelled the SBN-CLE route as of August I wouldn't hold my breath.

The service wouldn't have to be to CLE, just similar in terms of frequency and/or capacity.

For UA in particular, DEN, EWR, and IAD all come to mind as potential FWA routes. The Fort Wayne Chamber of Commerce sent out a survey a few months ago regarding whether businesses would use an FWA-IAD flight, and airport officials recently hinted at the possibility of DEN and IAD at their annual media event.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
FWA seats are down 40% or so in the last decade. Don't get crazy--just ask the neighbors down the road in IND.

There is a difference: Unlike IND, FWA didn't build a new billion-dollar terminal right before the biggest recession since the Great Depression.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
FWAERJ
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:55 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
How to they expect to staff it? CBP is not going to be sitting around "just in-case" a plane with passengers drops in.

Even call out staffing (if there are even enough agents in the region) will be a time consuming and costly exercise.

FWA already has a 24-hour CBP facility for cargo. Chances are that they will use staff from that.

But I see a lot more to this FIS facility than just diversions... with things like the long-rumored G4 Mexico/Caribbean service.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
LAXintl
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:24 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 13):
FWA already has a 24-hour CBP facility for cargo. Chances are that they will use staff from that.

Easier said an done.

Here in SoCal we have Ontario, the UPS Western sorting hub, and CBP staffing between it and the a single daily international pax flight at ONT are firewalled. CBP pax coverage must drive in from LAX as the job categorization and training are different and cant be cross utilized.

Even when ONT gets diversions, its very very rare pax are deplaned and cleared there. Normally they are held onboard to fly back to LAX, or placed on sealed buses destined to LAX for clearance.

Wish FWA luck, just hopefully they don't waste tax-payer money.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:00 pm

Where's Mayor     
What gets measured gets done.
 
capitalflyer
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:51 am

I would love to see some new flights, especially FWA-IAD. But given recent trends I would say hanging on to frequency is the most pressing goal. SBN has slowly bled flights, and now is losing CLE. Meanwhile airfares have more than doubled for some destinations. I think UA and DL, both at FWA and SBN, are looking to right size ops so they can make more money on these routes until demand comes back. Unless a SCASD grant can be used, perhaps for IAD service.

Have UA and DL been hurt by G4?
 
FWAERJ
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:25 am

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 16):
Have UA and DL been hurt by G4?

I don't think so.

However, DL has been hurt lately at FWA by Eagle, even in the face of AMR's Chapter 11 filing. Eagle now has a 30% market share as opposed to DL's 40%. Post-NW merger, it was typically DL 46% and Eagle 24% at FWA. UA's market share at FWA has remained steady in the 12-13% range, with G4 (16-18%) and charters (less than 1%) making up the rest.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 16):
But given recent trends I would say hanging on to frequency is the most pressing goal.

FWA-ATL is increasing to 4x daily for the first time since 9/11, and the second FWA-MSP also returns for the summer. Average load factors at FWA in May were 82%, so it looks like FWA needs the frequencies.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 16):
Unless a SCASD grant can be used, perhaps for IAD service.

FWA received SCASD grants twice. The first one was in 2003 for TZ/C8, while the second one was in 2010 for a CUTE system.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting Flaps (Reply 7):
I think FWA is a mighty fine facility and seems to me to serve the market pretty well. I think that money could be better spent elsewhere.

I use FWA a number of times each year, and I would agree. While not the mainline when I lived there in the 70's, it does seem pretty well served to the major hubs.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 17):
However, DL has been hurt lately at FWA by Eagle, even in the face of AMR's Chapter 11 filing. Eagle now has a 30% market share as opposed to DL's 40%. Post-NW merger, it was typically DL 46% and Eagle 24% at FWA. UA's market share at FWA has remained steady in the 12-13% range, with G4 (16-18%) and charters (less than 1%) making up the rest.

One quick way Eagle could carve another 10-12% market share would be to schedule at least 2 CR7's on the DFW service. If I were them I'd be thinking about that NOW as I strongly suspect that FWA and a number of similar markets will soon have 717 service (mainline) from DL in the not to distant future.
 
FWAERJ
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 18):
One quick way Eagle could carve another 10-12% market share would be to schedule at least 2 CR7's on the DFW service. If I were them I'd be thinking about that NOW as I strongly suspect that FWA and a number of similar markets will soon have 717 service (mainline) from DL in the not to distant future.

Two problems with that:
1) Eagle does not have a CR7 pilot base at DFW anymore; all CR7s at DFW are rotated in from the LAX base
2) Eagle is currently capacity-limited when it comes to CR7s at 50 jets (if the new AA pilot contract is approved, this will change, but getting CR7s or E170/5s will not happen overnight)
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:33 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 19):
1) Eagle does not have a CR7 pilot base at DFW anymore; all CR7s at DFW are rotated in from the LAX base
2) Eagle is currently capacity-limited when it comes to CR7s at 50 jets (if the new AA pilot contract is approved, this will change, but getting CR7s or E170/5s will not happen overnight)

1..Did not know that. How do they handle ofther DFW CR7 flights? Couldn't FWA (all other issues resolved) be worked into a rotation?

2. Yes, was being somewhat hypothetical..but I would say that is a market that would generate a nice profit with an aircraft with F seats to DFW. Let us hope that the contracts are concluded soon for everyones sake.
 
FWAERJ
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:44 pm

Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 20):
Couldn't FWA (all other issues resolved) be worked into a rotation?

Potentially. Eagle also serves ORD (which is a CR7 pilot base) from FWA, so we could see an ORD-FWA-DFW-FWA-ORD rotation. The problem would be timing the flight for international connections.

Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 20):
I would say that is a market that would generate a nice profit with an aircraft with F seats to DFW.

About three-quarters of FWA pax are flying on business, so I think you're right that FWA needs F seats. I feel that the first airline offering F seats from FWA will gain quite a bit of local market share.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
dlramp4life
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:32 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
I anticipate flights to Mexico and the Caribbean on G4?

Charter maybe through Apple Vacations but weekly service? I don't think so.
SEA Ramp, wettest place on earth
 
FWAERJ
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:38 pm

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 22):
Charter maybe through Apple Vacations but weekly service? I don't think so.

Apple Vacations is pushing SY flights via LAN through local travel agents here pretty hard, and two carriers (DL and F9) serve IND-CUN nonstop (which also sees a lot of local passengers).

The demand is there... it's just not going through FWA. And if G4 does scheduled Mexico from FWA or anywhere else, don't underestimate the power of their package bundling.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
dlramp4life
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:12 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 23):
The demand is there... it's just not going through FWA. And if G4 does scheduled Mexico from FWA or anywhere else, don't underestimate the power of their package bundling

Very true but G4 does not serve any city in Mexico or in the Caribbean unless it is a charter. First G4 needs to get some routes to those places and then we can speculate what airports they will serve.
SEA Ramp, wettest place on earth
 
FWAERJ
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:49 pm

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 24):
G4 does not serve any city in Mexico or in the Caribbean unless it is a charter.

For now.

G4 has hinted at scheduled international service many times... at this point, it is not a matter of if, but when.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
dlramp4life
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 25):
G4 has hinted at scheduled international service many times... at this point, it is not a matter of if, but when.

International service in FWA? How big are G4 operations in FWA? I mean it is possible with the 757s but all it is whats ifs right now.
SEA Ramp, wettest place on earth
 
FWAERJ
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:29 am

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 26):
International service in FWA?

International service in general.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 26):
How big are G4 operations in FWA?

3 year-round cities (PGD, PIE, SFB) and one seasonal city (MYR), all typically served 2x/week with PGD being the newest route. SFB and PIE are typically served more frequently in the Feb-Mar timeframe.

LAS, AZA, and FLL were also served from FWA at one time or another. LAS was dropped due to fuel and stiff competition from three airlines 5x/day at IND in the summer of 2008; AZA hung around slightly longer, but poor package sales did the route in. FLL was discontinued from FWA and several other cities because of operational problems that G4 was having at FLL at the time. Notably, with IND-LAS now down to one carrier 2-3x/day, FWA management is working to convince G4 to bring back FWA-LAS.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
freakyrat
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:40 am

Quoting michman (Reply 8):

I flew out of SBN's new terminal a few months ago. I don't know what the old was like, but the new one sure looks like serious overkill.

The old building was basically two holding rooms "pens" very similar to the one they use at Hamburg Germany for busing people to flights out on the middle apron. There was no food post security and TSA had to staff two security positions. The new terminal is much better has food and drinks past security and is better equipped to handle the traffic they have there now plus any in the future including Delta mainline during the Notre Dame Football weekends.

SBN while loosing the Cleveland flights has been adding seasonal flights on Delta connection each summer. This summer they are up to 4 R/T's to ATL and now 3 R/T's to MSP and an additional DTW trip. Delta is coming full circle in getting rid of the money loosing 50 seaters and returning to mainline with a handful of larger RJ's. I think they are going to run mainline from SBN-DTW and also SBN-ATL in the future. The only thing the new terminal needs is a ramp rebuild. That's coming. SBN also gets ORD diversions with large mainline jets and the new terminal frees up 3 jet bridges for this purpose.

G4 also added seasonal flights to PGD.

Just like SBN didn't sit on their laurels with what they had and designed a very simple 12 million dollar functional terminal, FWA has to plan for the future also.
 
FWAERJ
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:42 pm

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 28):
SBN while loosing the Cleveland flights has been adding seasonal flights on Delta connection each summer. This summer they are up to 4 R/T's to ATL and now 3 R/T's to MSP and an additional DTW trip.
FWA is also up to 4 ATL flights/day and MSP has gone from 1 to 2 flights/day for the summer. No extra DTW seats from FWA, though.

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 28):
SBN also gets ORD diversions with large mainline jets

So does FWA, which is part of the reason why they now have a CUTE system.

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 28):
G4 also added seasonal flights to PGD.

With the addition of FWA/IAG/PIA/SBN, PGD is now a year-round base for G4. Previously, PGD was seasonal service from GSP/LEX/TYS; these cities also remain. If the new service is successful (and I think it will be), I could see G4 serving at least 10 cities from PGD by the peak winter season.

[Edited 2012-07-14 12:43:45]
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
ouboy79
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:07 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 29):
I could see G4 serving at least 10 cities from PGD by the peak winter season.

Probably see another 3-4 announced here in the next month or so.
 
FWAERJ
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RE: New FWA Master Plan: Bigger Terminal And FIS(!)

Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 30):
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 29):
I could see G4 serving at least 10 cities from PGD by the peak winter season.

Probably see another 3-4 announced here in the next month or so.

Prior to their collapse, Direct Air served eight cities from PGD, one more than G4 now serves:
-AZO (MSA well-served by FL/WN service to RSW at nearby GRR and G4's SBN-PGD service)
-IAG (Now served to PGD by G4)
-LCK (Oddball airport; may or may not see service to SW Florida again in the shadow of CMH)
-ORH (Though strong for Direct Air, unlikely to see G4 again based on their past spat; could see B6 service)
-PBG (Likely candidate for G4 to PGD or NK to RSW)
-RFD (Very successful G4 city; likely to see G4 PGD service in the next round)
-SPI (G4 now serves PGD from nearby PIA)
-TOL (Also likely to see G4 to PGD in the next round due to good Direct Air results here)
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"