LHLX
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Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:16 pm

On it's Israeli website Lufthansa prides itself as the largest foreign carrier.

A year ago they had two daily FRA flights (744 and Airbus 346) and 5 weekly MUC.

Now they are down to 2 daily FRA (343 and 346) and 5 weekly MUC (343 or 333) plus 2 weekly Berlin.

A month ago they said they would from late October 2012 downgrade MUC to Airbus 321 and the 2 daily FRA to Airbus 333.

Friday, two days ago, Israeli newspaper Ynet reported they would downgrade their 2 daily FRA flights to narrowbody Airbus 321, too!

Very said to see a quality carrier that offered PTVs in al classes (apart from the new Berlin flights) and first and business class in all flights (again, apart from Berlin), even bringing Lufthansa's new business class from MUC on almost every flight in the past fortnight...they don't even doensize to a 2-class Airbus 340. Rather, they will offer an inflight experience that is akin to their IST, ATH and DME flights.

This is a chance for EL AL to get many of Lufthansa's most frequent fliers and apparently they have already started luring them with top frequent flier status....


Let's hope Swiss won't follow....
 
goldorak
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:32 pm

I understand your disappointment as a passenger, for a switch from a widebody to a narrowbody plane, but if LH do that, there is obviously a reason. Either the demand is not there anymore, or the yields are terrible (a common problem for many carriers to TLV). Another good reason is that LH has probably other long-haul routes where these widebodies could be better used. With the current economic situation, there is no more room for "keeping a widebody on medium-haul route" just to please a very very few number of plane-type sensitive pax, when this route can be perfectly operated, and maybe more efficiently, by a narrowbody. Keep in mind that 95% of pax (or even more) don't know in advance and don't care at all about the plane type they will fly.
 
LHLX
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:44 pm

I don't completely agree. Israelis, especially the Israeli businessmen, are very demanding and will leave Lufthansa in hordes. Every time Swiss substitutes an Airbus 330/340 with a 321 people call up Swiss in Tel Aviv and rage. Over the weekend a number of HONs and SENs, the highest status of LH frequent fliers, 3 of whom I personally know, have already said they will switch to other airlines. Likewise, many of their partners, who all have Elite status, said they would switch to Swiss or, for USA flights, to UA and US. When EL AL downgraded their FRA flights from almost daily 767s to 737s, a lot of people moved to Lufthansa. Seems like now Swiss, UA, US and TK, all of whom offer some or another "real" business class seats (and service)...will get more customers on their TLV flights...not to mention EL AL, who's biggest competitor in TLV becomes much less of threat. Not only can EL AL compete with LH's product...they will offer a more decent one in both business and economy class...
 
LXA340
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:45 pm

Quoting LHLX (Thread starter):

This is a chance for EL AL to get many of Lufthansa's most frequent fliers and apparently they have already started luring them with top frequent flier status....

well EL AL with it's Platinum status can't compete with Miles and More SEN or HON status. Also these kind of passengers require quality, flexibility and a diverse route network of which nothing LY can offer. For the time being as long as SWISS will keep it's long haul equipment these premium conecting passengers can be fed via ZRH. Israel is a key market for the LH Group with arpoximately 200 HON Circle memebers and a couple thousand SEN's. Therefore I still hope that FRA will remain a premium route as well.
 
yp6370
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:42 pm

To which airline should they switch?

KL, AF, AZ, IB all come to TLV with single-aisle planes (A319/321 or 737).
LY flies mostly 737/757 to central Europe.

Only BA operates 767/777 from LON.

It's a question of effectively operating a fleet and how to earn money on that route.
If LH can use the long-haul jets better on other, more profitable routes it's the economically right decision.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting yp6370 (Reply 4):
Only BA operates 767/777 from LON.

And we are waiting for the announcement that this will go to 3 x A321/day.
ex-BMI A321 with good Club seats though.
 
JU068
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:50 pm

Quoting yp6370 (Reply 4):

Doesn't Turkish Airlines operate the route with a A330-200?
 
yp6370
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:55 pm

TK flies 4x/day with all different kind of a/c from 737/321 to 777
 
BestWestern
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:03 pm

Quoting LHLX (Reply 2):
Israelis, especially the Israeli businessmen, are very demanding and will leave Lufthansa in hordes.

And go where exactly? The El Al service is not superior to LH.

Quoting goldorak (Reply 1):
the yields are terrible (a common problem for many carriers to TLV).

Terrible Yield and Demanding passengers - a very difficult scenario to make a profit.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
LHLX
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:04 pm

While LY's business seats on the 737s and 757s (which are being taken out of service or operating sund'or flights) might not be long haul lie-flat seats, they are comfortable business seats, as opposed to IB, OS, SK, AZ, KL, SN and AF (and soon LH) who leave only the middle seat free. TK offer a decent product on most planes (on both the long haul Airbus 330s and 340s as well as some 320s and 321s coming to TLV), BA have a proper long haul product, as do LX. From Europe BA and LX, and to some degree LY, will be the only ones offering premium seats in F (not LX) and C and PTVs in all classes on all flights (LY only on some LHR and CDG flights).
 
LAXintl
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting LHLX (Thread starter):
downgrade
Quoting LHLX (Thread starter):
downgrade

Point of correction. The term is downgauge.

Downgrade is something that happens to a passenger, or involves frequency.

Capacity sizing changes is gauge
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
yp6370
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:18 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 8):
Terrible Yield and Demanding passengers - a very difficult scenario to make a profit.

  
TLV gets a more and more battled market with low-costers entering.


Well I guess most of LH's passengers cannot just switch to LY because they are connecting in FRA/MUC to e.g. USA.
If we assume that BA indeed changes their flights to 321, it would leave TK and LX operating to TLV with widebodies.

Why do you need a "proper long haul product" anyways on a 4h flight (FRA)?
After you've finished your 5 course meal in First Class there's hardly any time left to sleep 
 
ZRH
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting LHLX (Thread starter):
Let's hope Swiss won't follow....

As I know SWISS will in Winter schedule fly twice daily with 333 ZRH-TLV.
 
Aviaco
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:27 pm

I travelled MUC-TLV last week and it took only 3hours and ten minutes.
A long haul plane is not really needed for this sector.
Are there any plans for other routes being downgauged?
I am thinking about FRA-GYD-ASB which used to be operated by A-320 series aircraft
in the 90's.
 
santos
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:41 pm

Quoting Aviaco (Reply 13):
A long haul plane is not really needed for this sector.

Sometimes large aircraft operate on short routes due to high volumes of cargo and not because of high volume of passengers.
 
Rara
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:06 pm

I guess in the past LH got a big chunk of the Israel-USA traffic, maybe this situation has changed? Have there been a lot of direct connections added in the last few years?

Keep in mind that a downgauge from A330/A340 to A321 really is a downgauge in premium capacity only. In fact it's even a capacity increase as far as eco seating is concerned.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
faucett
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:41 pm

As a very frequent traveler in both TLV-FRA and TLV-MUC, I must say that as much as I like the A330/A340 LH birds, I will not trade my ongoing flights in either FRA or MUC because of the short hop from TLV is made in a narrow body. I need the comfort mostly in the long haul leg, not the short one. It' s a pity, not a problem.
As for loads, I've seen all - sometimes it so full there's no room for even an ant, and sometimes it's half empty. Depends on the day of the week and time of the year.
I will keep faithful to LH, as long as the service and the connections are comfortable for me.
faucett
 
LJ
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:43 pm

Quoting LHLX (Thread starter):
Friday, two days ago, Israeli newspaper Ynet reported they would downgrade their 2 daily FRA flights to narrowbody Airbus 321, too!

Is there any official announcement that they're actually going to do this?

Quoting LHLX (Reply 2):
I don't completely agree. Israelis, especially the Israeli businessmen, are very demanding and will leave Lufthansa in hordes

One can also argue that the pax are spoiled as their counterparts from AMM or BEY are having a more difficult time getting on a long haul aircraft. Moreover how many airlines serve IST with long haul aircraft (granted IST is one hour flying less), Heck LH serves FRA-CAI with a A321 as well.
 
JU068
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:19 pm

Did they use their A300-600 to TLV before they withdrew them from service?
 
VgnAtl747
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting LHLX (Reply 2):
Over the weekend a number of HONs and SENs, the highest status of LH frequent fliers, 3 of whom I personally know, have already said they will switch to other airlines. Likewise, many of their partners, who all have Elite status, said they would switch to Swiss or, for USA flights, to UA and US.

While it's lost revenue to LH for them to do that, they're not exactly making any sacrifice by flying UA or US. If they are top tier LH frequent flyers they'll be flying on Star Gold privileges no matter what star carrier they fly.
Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
 
machnumber
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:09 pm

Quoting LHLX (Thread starter):
Rather, they will offer an inflight experience that is akin to their IST, ATH and DME flights.

Why not? Is Tel Aviv so much more superior than those cities? I don't think so.
 
laca773
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting Aviaco (Reply 13):
I travelled MUC-TLV last week and it took only 3hours and ten minutes.
A long haul plane is not really needed for this sector.
Are there any plans for other routes being downgauged?
I am thinking about FRA-GYD-ASB which used to be operated by A-320 series aircraft
in the 90's.

Is MUC-TLV the shortest in duration when compared to LHR/CDG/FRA/AMS/ZRH/VIE/MAD?

Quoting yp6370 (Reply 4):

KL, AF, AZ, IB all come to TLV with single-aisle planes (A319/321 or 737).
LY flies mostly 737/757 to central Europe.

Slight correction for you yp6370. Even though I don't like anything about IB, they do offer one widebody flight to TLV a day while the second daily flight is flown with a A319 that does have a real business cabin. They now have a small subfleet of A319s that fly long, thin routes that do need a dedicated J cabin.

Are these changes possibly taking place because of the rumor or BA downgauging their TLV, CAI and a couple of other routes in the same category to A321s that have a dedicated J cabin versus their usual J cabin that can be adjusted according to demand? Sometimes changes occur because of the competition though, it seems LH has offered one of the best products in the TLV market for quite sometime.
Has LH always had a high demand among transiting passenger for TLV service? Which airline sees the most demand for transit onwards to TLV? 1) LH; 2)BA; 3) LX; 4); 5) IB; 6) OS; 7) KL; 8) AF ?

It's well known how demanding passengers coming from or going to TLV are. Typically are loads and yields among the highest in this medium haul market?.
 
LY777
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:44 pm

Maybe this downgauge is just a rumour.
LH has been sending widebodies to TLV for ages.
I don't see why they would make such a big change
Flown:A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388,717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W,D8,D10,L
 
skipness1E
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:59 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
Point of correction. The term is downgauge.

Downgrade is something that happens to a passenger, or involves frequency.

Capacity sizing changes is gauge

That's technically correct however there is a good argument that it's also a downgrade in this case as the service levels and comfort appear to be less and / or lower. In the case of BA one would most certainly upgaugre from a B772 to a B744 but one would be upgrading and upgauging from an A321 to the B772.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:19 pm

TLV is one huge leisure/ethnic market. Just look at LY which has denser configurations with small premium cabins. I recall seeing a Tel Aviv Airport marketing prospectus for an airline a couple years back something like 90% of passengers traffic was leisure.

For some carriers and markets there is strong underlying O&D demand, while for others such as IB, TLV is operated to generate transit flow (as example 75,000 flew on IB between Israel and South America(EZE was #1) in 2011).

I suspect since airline like LH are hugely focused on their hubs, TLV is more a feeder market than anything else.
Ultimately carriers want to mix/match the best revenue mix possible while covering cost, so it could very well be the smaller A320 family does this better in the market then a larger widebody for them.


Quoting skipness1E (Reply 23):
that it's also a downgrade in this case as the service levels and comfort

Sure, for a consumer you can call it what you wish, but frankly a Y class seat on a 744 is about the same as an A321.

But at the end of the day, since I presume people here would like to learn and utilize the correct industry language, the capacity sizing change term applicable in this case is gauge.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
JU068
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:43 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 24):
Sure, for a consumer you can call it what you wish, but frankly a Y class seat on a 744 is about the same as an A321.

Mmmm have you actually flown on Lufthansa's 744 and 321? There is a huge difference! The older non-refurbished 744s are more comfortable than the slim seats they have on the A321s; not to mention that they have televisions in both classes, an amenity which does not exist on the A321 (regardless if you are in business or economy).

I have not been on the refurbished B747s but one major advantage over the A321 is that they do have PTVs.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 24):
But at the end of the day, since I presume people here would like to learn and utilize the correct industry language, the capacity sizing change term applicable in this case is gauge.

I do not think he was just referring to the sizing change but to a clear drop in quality offered between some airports in Germany and Tel Aviv. So the correct phrasing should include both downsizing and down-gauging, that is if one really wants to be correct.
 
aaexecplat
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:09 pm

Quoting vgnatl747 (Reply 19):
While it's lost revenue to LH for them to do that, they're not exactly making any sacrifice by flying UA or US. If they are top tier LH frequent flyers they'll be flying on Star Gold privileges no matter what star carrier they fly.

Well. If pax are flying TATL, on UA or LX, LH still gets plenty of revenue through the TATL ATI/JV. Only if pax fly US (not part of the ATI/JV), does LH lose significant revenue.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 24):
Sure, for a consumer you can call it what you wish, but frankly a Y class seat on a 744 is about the same as an A321.

Actually, the A321 seats are better than the old 744 seats. The old 744 seats were an abomination...terrible pitch, no PTV...I have not yet flown on a refurbished 744 though...

Quoting ju068 (Reply 25):
Mmmm have you actually flown on Lufthansa's 744 and 321? There is a huge difference! The older non-refurbished 744s are more comfortable than the slim seats they have on the A321s; not to mention that they have televisions in both classes, an amenity which does not exist on the A321 (regardless if you are in business or economy).

I have not been on the refurbished B747s but one major advantage over the A321 is that they do have PTVs.

I guess to each his own, but I find the old 744 seats the single most uncomfortable seats on LH. And let's get our facts straight about the LH 744...

1) The old 744s have 3 class configuration with Y having no PTVs. J and F do have PTVs.
2) The new 744s have 3 class configuration with all classes outfitted with PTVs.
 
skipness1E
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 24):
Sure, for a consumer you can call it what you wish, but frankly a Y class seat on a 744 is about the same as an A321.

Don't BA have more legroom in Y on the short haul fleet? Hence that would be a downgauged upgrsde.
 
LOWS
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:32 am

Quoting ju068 (Reply 25):

I have not been on the refurbished B747s but one major advantage over the A321 is that they do have PTVs.

It's not FRA-SFO... People can live for four hours without a TV screen.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:33 am

My experience at least on the day flight is that F upstairs was always full as well as the J cabin of the 744. The only time I experienced an almost empty (huge) J cabin was in a 346 operating thre night flight on a Saturday
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JU068
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:05 am

Quoting LOWS (Reply 28):

It's not a matter if they can survive or not, it's whether this change brought down the level of service. Removing entertainment definitely qualifies it as a downgrade.
 
6thfreedom
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:24 am

I love it when I read comments such as the ones below... quantitative on the basis of what a few people thing.

the reality is that while the market may not like it, it is unlikely to change anything.

Quoting LHLX (Reply 2):
I don't completely agree. Israelis, especially the Israeli businessmen, are very demanding and will leave Lufthansa in hordes. Every time Swiss substitutes an Airbus 330/340 with a 321 people call up Swiss in Tel Aviv and rage. Over the weekend a number of HONs and SENs, the highest status of LH frequent fliers, 3 of whom I personally know, have already said they will switch to other airlines.

The three pax you know may have well changed, but when an airline is putting on 3 narrowbodies per day compared to a daily frequency, most business people would go for the higher frequency schedule to have greater flexibility.

Quoting LHLX (Reply 2):
When EL AL downgraded their FRA flights from almost daily 767s to 737s, a lot of people moved to Lufthansa.

so what will most likely happen over time (or could well already be the trend) is that airlines are moving to narrowbodies for TLV, and hence the choice will revert to inflight service etc rather than aircraft type. I'm sure LH would have considered this.

By the way, a narrowbody for a 4 hr flight is not too bad..
 
jumpjets
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:09 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 27):
Don't BA have more legroom in Y on the short haul fleet? Hence that would be a downgauged upgrsde.

That is certainly true on the E190s which are v comfortable. On the airbus fleet depending how many of the converter seats have been sold as club Europe you often get club Europe legroom as a Y passenger - though that is in the full 6 abreast rather than the 2x2 in club.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 15):

I guess in the past LH got a big chunk of the Israel-USA traffic, maybe this situation has changed? Have t

I don't think it has changed. I know quite a few business people who will gladly make the change at FRA to be able to fly on LH.
Personally I am thinking the business people who are used to the level of service on LH would not switch over to LY even if LH started ops with a used Cessna Skywagon. 
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
dalca
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:18 pm

I have been checking the LH website as well as my own work pc and nothing is mentioned of this at all. For both the LH686 and LH690 an A330-300 is slated to fly the route.
LH makes quite a bit of money with the lower-deck holds cramed full with cargo so there is definately a win-win situation for LH there.

Of course an equipment change can still happen but I think we will still be seeing widebodies into TLV with Lufthansa logo's on there.
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stylo777
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:43 pm

Quoting dalca (Reply 34):
I have been checking the LH website as well as my own work pc and nothing is mentioned of this at all. For both the LH686 and LH690 an A330-300 is slated to fly the route.

it will go into Amadeus in the next days

Quoting dalca (Reply 34):
LH makes quite a bit of money with the lower-deck holds cramed full with cargo so there is definately a win-win situation for LH there.

Regarding cargo this downgauge is indeed questionable since the daily shipped amount is significant
 
civetfive
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:42 am

I think that is more indicative of a potential softening of demand ex-Europe to TLV rather than anything about the TLV market per se. Otherwise, wouldn't LH have rationalized their equipment to TLV several years ago rather than now?
 
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OA260
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:19 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 5):
And we are waiting for the announcement that this will go to 3 x A321/day.
ex-BMI A321 with good Club seats though.

Indeed and this is actually an upgrade in terms of product offered for J Class passengers.
British Airways carried 22,567 passengers to and from TLV in May 2012, and 105,031 passengers between January to May 2012.
 
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EK413
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:53 am

Quoting LHLX (Thread starter):

Very sad to see the equipment downgrades but would you prefer LH pull out of the TLV market completely... Carriers adjust the equipment on specific routes based on demand and if the B744 & A346 can be utilized on routes why wouldn't LH make the move...

EK413
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6thfreedom
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:57 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 38):
Very sad to see the equipment downgrades but would you prefer LH pull out of the TLV market completely... Carriers adjust the equipment on specific routes based on demand and if the B744 & A346 can be utilized on routes why wouldn't LH make the move...

The other key question is how many more connections beyond FRA does LH hit by operating 3pw with A321 compared to a reduced frequency.

i think frequency is key for connections...
 
LY777
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:46 am

I checked LH website, and for January, it is still double daily A333...
Flown:A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388,717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W,D8,D10,L
 
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EK413
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:21 am

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 39):
Quoting EK413 (Reply 38):
Very sad to see the equipment downgrades but would you prefer LH pull out of the TLV market completely... Carriers adjust the equipment on specific routes based on demand and if the B744 & A346 can be utilized on routes why wouldn't LH make the move...

The other key question is how many more connections beyond FRA does LH hit by operating 3pw with A321 compared to a reduced frequency.

i think frequency is key for connections...


Valid point... Another example would be CX operating SYD 4 x daily A333 oppose to 2 x daily B744 & A346...

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
LHLX
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RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:05 am

On Lufthansa website both flights from late october are now Airbus 321.
The LH690 now leaves FRA at 19:25, arriving in TLV at 00:35+, instead of FRA 22:15 - TLV 03:10+
 
AirGAbon
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:50 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 22):
Has LH always had a high demand among transiting passenger for TLV service? Which airline sees the most demand for transit onwards to TLV? 1) LH; 2)BA; 3) LX; 4); 5) IB; 6) OS; 7) KL; 8) AF ?

Found on wikipedia:

The airport's busiest year so far was 2011: 13 million passengers passed through the airport (an increase of 6.7% over the previous year) on almost 100,000 commercial operations.
In 2011, the largest airlines on international routes were: El Al (29% of flights), Arkia (4.57%), Lufthansa (3.77%) and United Airlines (2.9%).

Busiest non-stop international destinations by city from TLV (2011) (Rank City Passengers)
1 Paris (Charles de Gaulle Airport) 769,000
2 New York (JFK Airport) 661,000
3 Moscow (combined) 595,000
4 London (Heathrow Airport) 557,000
5 Rome (Fiumicino Airport) 521,000
6 Newark (Newark Airport) 501,000
7 Kiev (Boryspil Airport) 403,000
 
BestWestern
Posts: 7039
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:49 am

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 43):
Busiest non-stop international destinations by city from TLV (2011) (Rank City Passengers)
1 Paris (Charles de Gaulle Airport) 769,000

Well, that is a surprise to be honest, but with AF x3 daily and LY litterally all over the place with schedule, the flights do add up.

EL Al

TLV Tel Aviv Metro / Ben Gurion Intl IL = TLV SDV [LLBG]
PAR Paris Metro FR = CDG ORY BVA XPG XJY
WED 15 Aug 2012 - 22 Aug 2012

Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive A/C St Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- --- -- ----------------------------------------------------------------
LY 221 TLV 01:10 CDG 05:30 738 0 --3---- 05:20 3 2A 22 Aug 22 Aug Wed 15 Aug
LY 319 TLV 06:00 CDG 09:55 772 0 ----5-- 04:55 3 2A 27 Jul 21 Sep
LY 319 TLV 06:00 CDG 10:00 EQV 0 1234--7 05:00 3 2A 15 Aug 22 Aug
LY 323 TLV 09:00 CDG 12:50 744 0 --34--7 04:50 3 2A 16 Aug 22 Aug Wed 15 Aug
LY 323 TLV 09:00 CDG 12:55 772 0 123---- 04:55 3 2A 14 Aug 21 Aug Wed 22 Aug
LY 5283 TLV 09:05 CDG 13:10 738 0 --3---- 05:05 3 2A 22 Aug 22 Aug Wed 15 Aug
LY 421 TLV 12:55 CDG 17:05 73G 0 ------7 05:10 3 2A 19 Aug 19 Aug
LY 325 TLV 14:30 CDG 18:25 772 0 ----5-- 04:55 3 2A 10 Aug 17 Aug
LY 5287 TLV 14:45 CDG 18:55 738 0 -2----- 05:10 3 2A 21 Aug 21 Aug
LY 5289 TLV 15:30 CDG 19:40 738 0 1------ 05:10 3 2A 20 Aug 20 Aug
LY 5287 TLV 16:25 CDG 20:30 738 0 ------7 05:05 3 2A 19 Aug 19 Aug
LY 325 TLV 17:00 CDG 21:00 763 0 1234--7 05:00 3 2A 15 Aug 22 Aug
LY 5283 TLV 17:30 CDG 21:40 738 0 1------ 05:10 3 2A 20 Aug 20 Aug
LY 5287 TLV 17:45 CDG 21:55 757 0 ---4--- 05:10 3 2A 16 Aug 16 Aug
LY 329 TLV 19:00 CDG 23:00 763 0 ------7 05:00 3 2A 12 Aug 19 Aug


TLV Tel Aviv Metro / Ben Gurion Intl IL = TLV SDV [LLBG]
PAR Paris Metro FR = CDG ORY BVA XPG XJY
WED 15 Aug 2012 - 22 Aug 2012

Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive A/C St Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- --- -- ----------------------------------------------------------------
AF 2221 TLV 08:10 CDG 12:10 320 0 1234567 05:00 3 2E 15 Aug 22 Aug
AF 1961 TLV 14:20 CDG 18:20 320 0 1234567 05:00 3 2E 09 Jul 02 Sep
AF 1621 TLV 17:20 CDG 21:20 320 0 1234567 05:00 3 2E 30 Mar 22 Sep


Arkia

TLV Tel Aviv Metro / Ben Gurion Intl IL = TLV SDV [LLBG]
PAR Paris Metro FR = CDG ORY BVA XPG XJY
WED 15 Aug 2012 - 22 Aug 2012

Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive A/C St Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- --- -- ----------------------------------------------------------------
IZ 741 TLV 01:20 CDG 05:35 753 0 ------7 05:15 3 2A 15 Jul 26 Aug
IZ 745 TLV 05:00 CDG 08:50 753 0 -2----- 04:50 3 3 21 Aug 21 Aug
IZ 749 TLV 13:05 CDG 16:55 753 0 1------ 04:50 3 3 20 Aug 20 Aug
IZ 2743 TLV 17:20 CDG 21:10 753 0 --3---- 04:50 3 2A 11 Jul 15 Aug Wed 22 Aug
IZ 2743 TLV 17:20 CDG 21:10 753 0 --3---- 04:50 3 3 22 Aug 12 Sep Wed 15 Aug
IZ 2743 TLV 17:45 CDG 21:35 753 0 1------ 04:50 3 3 20 Aug 20 Aug
IZ 741 TLV 18:15 CDG 22:05 753 0 ---4--- 04:50 3 2A 02 Aug 06 Sep
IZ 743 TLV 19:10 CDG 23:00 753 0 ------7 04:50 3 2A 15 Jul 09 Sep


ML Air Mediterranee (FR) - BIE

TLV Tel Aviv Metro / Ben Gurion Intl IL = TLV SDV [LLBG]
PAR Paris Metro FR = CDG ORY BVA XPG XJY
WED 15 Aug 2012 - 22 Aug 2012

Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive A/C St Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- --- -- ----------------------------------------------------------------
ML 4549 TLV 07:30 CDG 12:35 321 0 ---4--- 06:05 1 3 26 Apr 25 Oct
ML 4379 TLV 08:20 CDG 12:25 321 0 1------ 05:05 3 3 20 Aug 20 Aug
ML 4907 TLV 08:20 CDG 12:25 321 0 -2----- 05:05 3 3 21 Aug 21 Aug
ML 4281 TLV 08:20 CDG 12:30 735 0 --3---- 05:10 3 3 15 Aug 22 Aug
ML 4549 TLV 09:00 CDG 13:05 321 0 1------ 05:05 1 3 23 Apr 22 Oct
ML 4803 TLV 09:20 CDG 13:25 321 0 ---4--- 05:05 3 3 16 Aug 16 Aug



In comparison to all of London - less low costs

LON London Metro UK = LHR LGW STN LTN LCY QQS QQW ZLS ZEP
TLV Tel Aviv Metro / Ben Gurion Intl IL = TLV SDV [LLBG]
WED 15 Aug 2012 - 22 Aug 2012

Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive A/C St Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- --- -- ----------------------------------------------------------------
BA 165 LHR 08:50 TLV 15:30 777 0 1234567 04:40 5 3 17 Jun 18 Sep
LY 214 LTN 09:50 TLV 16:45 763 0 ----5-- 04:55 - 3 17 Aug 17 Aug
LY 214 LTN 12:20 TLV 19:15 EQV 0 1234--7 04:55 - 3 15 Aug 22 Aug
LY 316 LHR 15:35 TLV 22:15 744 0 1234--7 04:40 1 3 17 Jul 10 Sep
LY 318 LHR 22:30 TLV 05:10 +1 744 0 1234-67 04:40 1 3 30 Jul 22 Aug
BA 163 LHR 22:30 TLV 05:25 +1 767 0 1234567 04:55 5 3 29 Mar 21 Sep


Still dont get the fact that El Al dont fly on a Saturday - whos running that airline?
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8533
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:02 am

Quoting LHLX (Reply 42):
The LH690 now leaves FRA at 19:25, arriving in TLV at 00:35+, instead of FRA 22:15 - TLV 03:10+

They are shifting flights away from the late evening banks to the earlier bank. Looks like the late departure fell victim of the night curfew. The 690 had to return to the gate several times because the take-off would have been after 11pm. As a gate manager I would not like to be confronted with 200 + screaming pax.

Also, 22h15 was too early for many European connections.
powered by Eierlikör
 
Tkfan
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:30 pm

RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:40 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 21):
Has LH always had a high demand among transiting passenger for TLV service? Which airline sees the most demand for transit onwards to TLV? 1) LH; 2)BA; 3) LX; 4); 5) IB; 6) OS; 7) KL; 8) AF ?

Who is No.4??
Maybe TK, thay have 4 dailies into TLV
 
Tkfan
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:30 pm

RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:34 pm

Quoting tkfan (Reply 46):
Maybe TK, thay have 4 dailies into TLV

Actually its 25 weekly, going up to 30/w in September and 32/w in October

http://www.turkishairlines.com/en-in...112/tel-aviv-flights-has-increased
 
LJ
Posts: 4115
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:08 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 44):
In comparison to all of London - less low costs

You miss the daily easyJet flight from Luton, but still less capacity
 
laca773
Posts: 2033
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:10 am

RE: Lufthansa Downsizes Tel Aviv Ops

Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:15 am

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 43):
Busiest non-stop international destinations by city from TLV (2011) (Rank City Passengers)
1 Paris (Charles de Gaulle Airport) 769,000
2 New York (JFK Airport) 661,000
3 Moscow (combined) 595,000
4 London (Heathrow Airport) 557,000
5 Rome (Fiumicino Airport) 521,000
6 Newark (Newark Airport) 501,000
7 Kiev (Boryspil Airport) 403,000

This is very interesting. Thanks for posting, AirGabon.

Does AF ever send their A321s or is this route always flown with the A320?

Will we see LH perhaps upgrade a few A321s to compete with BA and the BMI A321s which have the "fixed", true J cabin compared to the traditional European C cabin, similar to what IB has done with a small subfleet of their A319LRs they're sending on longer, thin routes, or as additional frequencies like in the MAD-TLV market?