mikey72
Topic Author
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Flight Capacity Stats Amaze Me

Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:20 pm

Looking at the stats below for flight capacity it is very interesting to see that some of the really big hitters in terms of market cap and profit are WAY down the list.

What do you guys think the list tells us when we consider what we know about the airlines on it ?

No wonder I got flamed for suggesting mega-hubs in the U.S......legacy domestic must be HUGE !!!

http://www.oagaviation.com/Solutions.../Flight-Capacity-w-c-9th-July-2012
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Flight Capacity Stats Amaze Me

Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:29 pm

Well, that is a list of number of flights. Your thread that there should be fewer flights on larger airplanes is justified by this data.

However, I think it is useful to realize how big the US market is. The US airlines truly are huge corporations. While they don't have 10 times the capacity, Delta and United are managing more than 10 times more flights on a daily basis than Emirates is. For reasons like this, we see threads about diversions and major events happening more frequently on Delta or United than anyone else.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
xjramper
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RE: Flight Capacity Stats Amaze Me

Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:15 pm

Just compared to this Top 30 list of the busiest airports in the world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's...iest_airports_by_passenger_traffic

With the exception of China on that list, all international airports outside the US are hubs for one or more airlines. And over 30% of that list are airports based in the US.

This begs a different question. Could non US-based airlines sustain a reliable business model (one that maintains RASM over CASM) day over day in the US? And vise-versa?

One thing that cracked me up when I worked for an airline and was taking care of European citizens, was that when we offered paper vouchers and that was it, they looked at me like i was crazy for not offering the EU standard in compensation. This should give an insight as to how much money a US airline would have to give out vs any given european carrier.
Look ma' no hands!
 
mikey72
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RE: Flight Capacity Stats Amaze Me

Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:03 pm

Quoting xjramper (Reply 2):
Just compared to this Top 30 list of the busiest airports in the world:
http://www.oagaviation.com/Solutions...y-Seat-Capacity-w-c-16th-July-2012

There are many parameters to consider I guess.

LHR handled 237,000 people today. (Olympics and all that)

All ran smoothly.

(phew)
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
rcair1
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RE: Flight Capacity Stats Amaze Me

Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1):
However, I think it is useful to realize how big the US market is.

Try - how big the US is. Physically. What would be multi-national flights in Europe are not even transcon. So you really can't compare domestic in Europe to domestic in US. You may be able to compare all "intra europe" to US domestic.
rcair1
 
panpan
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RE: Flight Capacity Stats Amaze Me

Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:51 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1):
Well, that is a list of number of flights. Your thread that there should be fewer flights on larger airplanes is justified by this data.

There should be fewer flights by larger airplanes in the US. I'd love to see slot controls in a bunch of US airports (like SFO) and reduction of slots at some of the most congested ares (like all the NYC airports). In fact, I think it would be a good idea for ALL US airports to be slot controlled so that it's very clear how many flights an airport thinks it can handle and whether they are approaching or at capacity. I think it's crazy the way we have a system that gets scheduled so tight that a little weather in the northeast translates to lengthy delays all over the country. I keep hearing that Americans want frequency but I think what Americans really want is fewer delays and the frequency is more about airlines afraid of losing business to their competitors. Flame on!
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: Flight Capacity Stats Amaze Me

Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:04 am

Quoting panpan (Reply 5):
There should be fewer flights by larger airplanes in the US. I'd love to see slot controls in a bunch of US airports (like SFO) and reduction of slots at some of the most congested ares (like all the NYC airports). In fact, I think it would be a good idea for ALL US airports to be slot controlled so that it's very clear how many flights an airport thinks it can handle and whether they are approaching or at capacity. I think it's crazy the way we have a system that gets scheduled so tight that a little weather in the northeast translates to lengthy delays all over the country. I keep hearing that Americans want frequency but I think what Americans really want is fewer delays and the frequency is more about airlines afraid of losing business to their competitors. Flame on!

Nice in theory, but the unintended consequences, including to the economy, wouldn't be worth it .... The fact of the matter is, the U.S. aviation system is a marvel ... While flying in the 1960s and 1970s was something truly special, you had to be rich, on business, or an airline employee to afford it .... When we look at the how much safer, less expensive, and more utilized it is many times over, it's truly remarkable. It's a commodity now, and with that comes some added inconvenience, but that inconvenience comes with a system that literally offers flights all day long in any direction ...
 
panpan
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RE: Flight Capacity Stats Amaze Me

Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:50 am

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 6):
Nice in theory, but the unintended consequences, including to the economy, wouldn't be worth it

I hear that all the time but I just don't believe it. I don't see how slowly moving from narrowbodies to widebodies on highly trafficked routes would lead to the collapse of the economy and the end of democracy. What I do think is that the airlines think that the way they do things makes them more flexible and makes the most economic sense but that's short term reasoning. In the longer term people are getting so sick of all the drama that is flying today that they are opting not to.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Flight Capacity Stats Amaze Me

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:26 am

Quoting panpan (Reply 7):
In the longer term people are getting so sick of all the drama that is flying today that they are opting not to.

Yet, planes are fuller now than they've every been. Overall capacity is down which is driving LF and yield but the fact of the matter is that despite the TSA and all the "drama" that comes along with flying; people are still flying and will continue to do so.

Now to the point of what you're saying. Yes, to a point frequencies are driven (a small part) by some sort of prestige or pride and market share but mostly because of $$. The people want the 8x daily LAX-JFK (that's Delta alone). That's approximately 1,392 seats each way. That would be 5x daily 763s (domestic config) if we were tying to match capacity.

LGA-ATL and MCO-ATL are DL's two busiest sectors in their entire system; Both at 16x daily. MCO offers more capacity due to the mix of 752s and 753s. LGA @ 2,880 seats each way and MCO @ 3,018 seats each way. That's 11x daily and 12x daily respectively. So the change is not that huge unless we're talking about using the like of T7s and A330s which is not going to happen.
What gets measured gets done.
 
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mayor
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RE: Flight Capacity Stats Amaze Me

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:49 am

Quoting panpan (Reply 5):
In fact, I think it would be a good idea for ALL US airports to be slot controlled so that it's very clear how many flights an airport thinks it can handle and whether they are approaching or at capacity.

The U.S. government has more than enough control over the airlines, now........they don't need any more.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Flight Capacity Stats Amaze Me

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:55 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 9):

truer words have never been spoken.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 8):

This. Want to see what a route like ATL-LGA would look like if the capacity model was used? look at ATL-LAX. 11x daily most of which is on 767s. It wouldn't do a lot. It would also just kill markets like the Shuttle.
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
thegeek
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RE: Flight Capacity Stats Amaze Me

Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:04 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 8):
Yes, to a point frequencies are driven (a small part) by some sort of prestige or pride and market share but mostly because of $$.

Quite right.

So start charging airlines on a per movement basis at airports like JFK & LGA and watch them change their tune. If such charges exist, they clearly aren't high enough to cause a change in policy.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Flight Capacity Stats Amaze Me

Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:18 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 11):

So start charging airlines on a per movement basis at airports like JFK & LGA and watch them change their tune. If such charges exist, they clearly aren't high enough to cause a change in policy.

how about we just have the airlines become loss making companys, have the government pay for there losses and maybe the employee's can go back to pre-9/11 quality of life?

anyone? anyone?

Or maybe the market should decide, and if people dislike the NYC area airports they should fly there? like that idea too(though i think i do much better with option A)
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Flight Capacity Stats Amaze Me

Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:16 am

I don't necessarily have an issue with slots per say, especially at airports like LGA/JFK/EWR were the number of movements do need to be controlled else the taxi delays would be worse than what it already is but the whole notion of perimeter rules is so antiquated it isn't even funny. When that goes away i'll start to take US Aviation legislation seriously.
What gets measured gets done.
 
spacecadet
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RE: Flight Capacity Stats Amaze Me

Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:24 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 13):
the whole notion of perimeter rules is so antiquated it isn't even funny.

Why are they antiquated? At LGA, at least, they still do exactly as they are intended to do, which is push the long distance traffic to EWR and JFK.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Flight Capacity Stats Amaze Me

Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:30 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 14):
Why are they antiquated? At LGA, at least, they still do exactly as they are intended to do, which is push the long distance traffic to EWR and JFK.

I understand the purpose just fine..but why? Why should people be forced to fly from a certain field? A HUGE inconvenience to much of the NY population. Everything has a reason. It doesn't mean the reason makes sense. Just like IAD/DCA, the rule was set up to protect the other airport.; JFK-LGA, IAD-DCA. I've yet to see a good reason as to how this promote the free market.
What gets measured gets done.
 
thegeek
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RE: Flight Capacity Stats Amaze Me

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:55 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 12):
Or maybe the market should decide, and if people dislike the NYC area airports they should fly there? like that idea too(though i think i do much better with option A)

That's exactly what I was saying, that a mechanism for charging appropriately should be implemented and then the market can sort it out. When there are common assets, it doesn't make sense for one particular airline to use less of them as all airlines would get the benefit.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 13):
the whole notion of perimeter rules is so antiquated it isn't even funny.

Fully agree. The difference in the noise of a 737 vs 767 isn't even that pronounced. (someone is probably about to post that it is X dB)
 
mikey72
Topic Author
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RE: Flight Capacity Stats Amaze Me

Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:45 am

Of those 40K appox UA and DL flights does anyone know what percentage are intercontinental ?
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.

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