gesubsea
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High Fees Deter KLM Royal Dutch Into Zimbabwe

Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:33 pm

Looks like more problems from Zimbabwe as while Air Zimbabwe has been virtually grounded since earlier this year for massive debts and creditor concerns, the government at the same time is "cutting its own throat" by NOT reducing landing fees enough to attract and keep foreign carriers into Harare. How embarrasing is that???

http://www.newzimbabwe.com/business-...Royal+Dutch+Airlines/business.aspx
 
HB-IWC
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RE: High Fees Deter KLM Royal Dutch Into Zimbabwe

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:28 pm

KLM has been looking into the option of combining its recently launched AMS LUN flights with HRE, either as a tag or in a triangle setup. As far as I know, nothing has been decided yet.
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: High Fees Deter KLM Royal Dutch Into Zimbabwe

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:44 pm

Quoting GEsubsea (Thread starter):
Looks like more problems from Zimbabwe

Let's not get ahead of ourselves with negative innuendo; this problem afflicts airports in the G8 such as NRT and YYZ.

The thing about these type of articles, they present no hard data, so who is to say what is high? In 2006 the landing fee for a 737 was about $480...not exorbitant. No idea what a 777 landing fee would be in the present day.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
sstsomeday
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RE: High Fees Deter KLM Royal Dutch Into Zimbabwe

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 2):
Let's not get ahead of ourselves with negative innuendo; this problem afflicts airports in the G8 such as NRT and YYZ.

My guess is, though, that you are not going to get the same yield on a route to Zimbabwe, nor the same services by any stretch of the imagination at a Zimbabwe airport.
I come in peace
 
LJ
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RE: High Fees Deter KLM Royal Dutch Into Zimbabwe

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:15 pm

Quoting GEsubsea (Thread starter):
Looks like more problems from Zimbabwe as while Air Zimbabwe has been virtually grounded since earlier this year for massive debts and creditor concerns, the government at the same time is "cutting its own throat" by NOT reducing landing fees enough to attract and keep foreign carriers into Harare. How embarrasing is that???

Why should Zimbabwe lower their fees if they don't want it? If KL would see a market in HRE, they'll return. I would guess any airline complains that landing fees are too high. I doubt that managers at KL knew what fees to expect when they flew to Zimbabwe.

BTW can somebody explain the floowing sentence in the article:

Quote:
KLM Royal Dutch Airlines came last week and left three weeks ago because of the high fees.

How can you leave before they even came?? Or am I reading something wrong?
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: High Fees Deter KLM Royal Dutch Into Zimbabwe

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:33 pm

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 3):
My guess is, though, that you are not going to get the same yield on a route to Zimbabwe, nor the same services by any stretch of the imagination at a Zimbabwe airport.

True, but it is widely known that on European-African routes with adequate traffic, European airlines make a killing. Why shouldn't Harare Airport get some of that revenue? Besides airlines frequently negotiate landing fees down. If this route fails to launch, it has to do more than landing fees.

Other problems of Zimbabwean governance are best left discussed in non-av.

Quoting LJ (Reply 4):

How can you leave before they even came?? Or am I reading something wrong?

It must be a misprint. Probably meant to say, "[the airline's executives] came last week and left three days ago."
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
gesubsea
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RE: High Fees Deter KLM Royal Dutch Into Zimbabwe

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:44 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 4):
Quote:
KLM Royal Dutch Airlines came last week and left three weeks ago because of the high fees.

How can you leave before they even came?? Or am I reading something wrong?

Could possibly mean they actually began service, but then discontinued it 3 weeks later after reconsidering the fees being charged.

Quoting LJ (Reply 4):
I doubt that managers at KL knew what fees to expect when they flew to Zimbabwe.

Good point....read an article recently in Airways magazine where an American pilot was under contract with the Iraqi gov't to fly a 747 into Tripoli, Libya (during last years revolution) and then fly out Iraqi nationals back to Baghdad. The pilot indicated in the article that the landing fees were in fact significantly higher upon arrival than when he departed Baghdad earlier in the day. Yes, we are talking about a gov't that was under distress and likely did not want to have to deal with outside interference's related to the evacuation of foreign nationals, but I must say he STILL did not have enough cash at his disposal to wait long enough on the ground for arriving passengers pushing through battle lines coming in from around Libya. Since these pass. were running late to the airport as well as the fact that he was only granted 3 hrs worth of time on the ground (related to the cash given to him by the Iraqi gov't), he had to depart Libya for Tunis and return the following day with more cash wired by the gov't.
 
AA737-823
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RE: High Fees Deter KLM Royal Dutch Into Zimbabwe

Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:41 pm

Amusing that airlines that charge their Y passengers ever-increasing FEES to do things like bring luggage, eat, earn miles, etc, don't enjoy being CHARGED FEES THEMSELVES.

I'm laughing, just as I laughed at the idea that the carriers should sue Airbus/Boeing over DELAYS on the 380/787... hah! Really?!?!
 
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Sepultallica
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RE: High Fees Deter KLM Royal Dutch Into Zimbabwe

Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:39 am

I recently spoke with some dudes from the CAAZ (Zim Civ Av Authority) and they pretty much admitted that the CAAZ has been harassing not just airlines, but also private air charter services that bring in tourists and hunters during the safari season, etc with exorbitant landing fees, overflight fees etc hence the slow uptake of HRE as a destination. It is true Zimbabwean incompetence at its finest - instead of lowering fees and attracting more clients, we attempt to wring the living crap out of the few that we do have, all for the sake of a few $$$ and the protection of a bankrupt government parastatal - UM

Air Zimbabwe given 90 day IATA reprieve as CAAZ hypocrisy stifles newcomers.

However, Emirates is milking their DXB-LUN-HRE route (averaging 80% loads since February) so i sincerely doubt that CAAZ landing fees are the only reason deterring KL and others from coming here.
Chinokanganwa idemo; Chitsiga hachikanganwe. ✈
 
Ps76
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RE: High Fees Deter KLM Royal Dutch Into Zimbabwe

Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:13 pm

Hi!

Quoting GEsubsea (Thread starter):
Looks like more problems from Zimbabwe as while Air Zimbabwe has been virtually grounded since earlier this year for massive debts and creditor concerns, the government at the same time is "cutting its own throat" by NOT reducing landing fees enough to attract and keep foreign carriers into Harare. How embarrasing is that???

I wouldn't say it's embarrasing. It's their right to charge whatever they like. As long as they charge everyone the same price they have done nothing wrong at all.

Personally if I was in the Zimbabwean government I would be more concerned with getting Air Zimbabwe running again fully. And I wouldn't be in too much of a rush either. Economic growth will come with time and effort. It doesn't have to happen overnight.

Many thanks.

Pierre
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: High Fees Deter KLM Royal Dutch Into Zimbabwe

Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:45 am

Quoting SepulTallica (Reply 8):

I recently spoke with some dudes from the CAAZ (Zim Civ Av Authority) and they pretty much admitted that the CAAZ has been harassing not just airlines, but also private air charter services that bring in tourists and hunters during the safari season, etc with exorbitant landing fees, overflight fees etc hence the slow uptake of HRE as a destination.

Firm figures???
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
goosebayguy
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RE: High Fees Deter KLM Royal Dutch Into Zimbabwe

Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:48 am

And what precisely are the landing fees at AMS?
 
gesubsea
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RE: High Fees Deter KLM Royal Dutch Into Zimbabwe

Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:21 am

Found this from Boeing referring to AMS charges as set by the Civil Aviation Authority Netherlands and these rates are based on the noise categories defined, as follows:
· noise category C : DEPNdB £ -18 (relative low noise)1 = base charge -10%
· noise category B : -9 ³ DEPNdB > -18 (relative average noise)2 = base charge
· noise category A : 0 ³ DEPNdB > -9 + Ch 2 aircraft (relative high noise) = base charge +

Base landing and take-off charges
The base landing and take-off charge is based on noise category B during daytime (between 06.00am and
23.00pm local time) and is applied for each landing and take-off. The base charges are as follows:

Rate per tonne ( you would have take avg weight of each type of a/c to get a rate):
Connected handling € 4.30
Disconnected handling € 3.45
Cargo flight € 2.25
 
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RWA380
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RE: High Fees Deter KLM Royal Dutch Into Zimbabwe

Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:41 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 7):
Amusing that airlines that charge their Y passengers ever-increasing FEES to do things like bring luggage, eat, earn miles, etc, don't enjoy being CHARGED FEES THEMSELVES.

I'm laughing, just as I laughed at the idea that the carriers should sue Airbus/Boeing over DELAYS on the 380/787... hah! Really?!?!

Very good point, it seems Zimbabwe does not play well with the rest of the world in the sandbox. It would be best to get 10 1000 landing fees, than one 3000.00 landing fee. I think KLM is a natural for HRE, I am surprised they are not there already as Africa is a money maker for KL and has been for many, many years.

Quoting SepulTallica (Reply 8):

However, Emirates is milking their DXB-LUN-HRE route (averaging 80% loads since February) so i sincerely doubt that CAAZ landing fees are the only reason deterring KL and others from coming here

I was thinking, out of the carriers that do fly to HRE, SAA has the most flights, and they seem to be doing fine flying to Zimbabwe. How many and much in landing fees does SA pay? Besides BA, EK, ET, KQ and SA, who else flies into HRE any more? One last question, does EK enjoy 5th freedom rights LUN-HRE, I hope so just for lift.
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gesubsea
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RE: High Fees Deter KLM Royal Dutch Into Zimbabwe

Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:57 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 2):
Let's not get ahead of ourselves with negative innuendo; this problem afflicts airports in the G8 such as NRT and YYZ.

The thing about these type of articles, they present no hard data, so who is to say what is high? In 2006 the landing fee for a 737 was about $480...not exorbitant. No idea what a 777 landing fee would be in the present day.

SO, if we take AMS landing fees from 2006 and we are using the weight of a 737 at close to max weight of say 170,000 lbs or 85 tons (referring to Pellegrine), then the rate calculation should be give or take the following:

Connected handling € 4.30 / Ton or €365 / $449
Disconnected handling € 3.45 / Ton or €293 / $360


Further to the current articles point, I have attached another one from back in 2000 where a number of carriers closed up shop and moved to Johannesburg and Lusaka, Zimbabwe citing the issue of landing fees compared to the number of pass. these carriers are picking up from Hararre. BA, KL, Austrian, Swiss, AF, TAP, and even Nambian all had made the move away from Harrare back in 2000 but only LH and Qantas remained for some reason. No way to tell what fees Harrare's is charging carrier's.

http://www.zwnews.com/issuefull.cfm?ArticleID=619
 
FlyingHollander
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RE: High Fees Deter KLM Royal Dutch Into Zimbabwe

Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:50 pm

KLM will start flying to Harare 3x weekly starting October 29th. It will be a triangle route via LUN as thought (AMS-HRE-LUN-AMS).
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
 
LJ
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RE: High Fees Deter KLM Royal Dutch Into Zimbabwe

Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:56 pm

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 15):
KLM will start flying to Harare 3x weekly starting October 29th. It will be a triangle route via LUN as thought (AMS-HRE-LUN-AMS).

Thus we can assume that the media is incorrect (once again). However, I wonder how many times this services will be postponed (sorry that I'm so pessimistic, but presently all long haul announcements have been followed by a postponement).
 
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RWA380
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RE: High Fees Deter KLM Royal Dutch Into Zimbabwe

Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:19 am

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 15):
KLM will start flying to Harare 3x weekly starting October 29th. It will be a triangle route via LUN as thought (AMS-HRE-LUN-AMS).

Isn't EK also serving HRE via LUN, but as a tag route and not a triangle, correct? I am glad for those needing to travel into Zimbabwe, KLM is a great airline, and has been a long time pioneer of Europe-Africa flying, awesome to hear they are coming back to HRE, after how many years? Is this going to be an A330 route?
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